Rapists, lad mags, and the Men’s Rights subreddit
Lad mags: Always covering the most important stories
What’s the difference between a lad mag and a rapist? Aside from one being a magazine and the other a person, albeit an reprehensible one, apparently not very much.
In a study soon to be published in the British Journal of Psychology, researchers at Middlesex University and the University of Surrey showed people quotes about women from British lad mags (FHM, Loaded, Nuts and Zoo) and from convicted rapists. Most survey respondents – men and women both – could not tell the difference between the quotes from the magazines and the quotes from the rapists. And most of the male respondents identified more with the quotes from the rapists than from the lad mags.
Here are some of the quotes the survey respondents were asked to react to. (You can find more at Jezebel.) Can you tell which of these are from rapists or lad mags?
Mascara running down the cheeks means they’ve just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.
You’ll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they’ll do it willingly.
Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?
I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.
In case you’re wondering, the correct answers are: Lad mag, Rapist, Rapist, Lad Mag.
Creepy, eh?
Lead researcher Miranda Horvath of Middlesex University explains why she feels this is so troubling:
Rapists try to justify their actions, suggesting that women lead men on, or want sex even when they say no, and there is clearly something wrong when people feel the sort of language used in a lads’ mag could have come from a convicted rapist.
I would say so.
And so, you might wonder, how did the regulars on the Men’s Rights subreddit react this this research? Take a look.
The comment with the most upvotes offered some nice juicy denial:
The comment with the second-highest number of upvotes completely missed the point:
And then there was this hot mess:
In case anyone is wondering, that quote from French is actually a quote from a character in one of her novels. And it’s pretty easy to distinguish it from things posted on Jezebel, because none of the writers on Jezebel ever say anything even remotely like that.
The Men’s Rights subreddit, responding to evidence of rape culture by going “la la la I can’t hear you” since March 2008.
Posted on December 11, 2011, in antifeminism, creepy, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, rape, rapey, reddit, that's not funny!. Bookmark the permalink. 758 Comments.
Small point, but I want to mention that of course rape can be, and often is the basis for civil law suits.
Although, yes, this:
is … the product of a confused mind.
“Furthermore, I think the false accusers harm actual rape victims as well. Do you agree the false rape cases of Duke and Hofstra caused harm to real victims of rape who try and get justice?”
I think those cases DO do damage because MRAs and other rape apologists cite them in arguments as evidence that “false rape accusations” are happening left, right and center.
Oops, Bee. Making mistakes correcting mistakes, silly me! Thanks for fixing that.
Also,
“However, what I do have a problem with is when people automatically believe that the person must be guilty just because an accusation was made. We, as a society, can both treat people as innocent until proven guilty in a court of law while also treating a woman who makes a rape accusation with dignity and respect.”
I do agree with you that people should be innocent until proven guilty, but you’re misunderstanding how our rape culture works.
Our rape culture persecutes the victim for making such a claim. This is why Rape Shield laws are necessary. Victims’ are NOT treated with dignity and respect. Their personal histories are put on trial, every single one of their actions questioned (“what were you wearing that night? how do we know you didn’t consent? how much did you resist? you had sex with this man before, so why was it rape this time? why were you drinking?” etc.)
re: Rape Culture 101 article.
Oh? Please elaborate what my mind is confused about….
Briefly, if the victim/accuser is the plaintiff, it’s a civil trial, and guilt/innocence doesn’t enter into it. The plaintiff tries to prove the elements of the case; the defendant either argues that the plaintiff didn’t meet the burden of proof or presents a defense. In other words, it’s not that the plaintiff would prove the defendant is “guilty,” but rather that the plaintiff has to establish/prove the elements of the claim, whatever claim was brought (assault, battery, IIED, false imprisonment, etc.).
In a criminal trial, the victim is not the plaintiff; she’s a witness. The state brings charges and must prove the defendant’s guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
“Furthermore, I think the false accusers harm actual rape victims as well. Do you agree the false rape cases of Duke and Hofstra caused harm to real victims of rape who try and get justice?”
See, that part of the rape culture too. Rape is almost never treated like other crimes. If we were speaking about murder, theft, assault or anything but rape, nobody would ever suggest that false claims harm the actual victims.
So, yeah, it harms real victims in the sense that people feel a little more justified in denying rape.
It should harm them – but it does and more than for any other crime – and it wouldn’t if this wasn’t a rape culture.
polliwog: As I have tried to say, repeatedly, I in no way was trying to say that 1 and 6 was not an abhorrent statistic that is way to high when I was saying that it was not representative of something that is prevalent.
stephanie: See, I disagree with you. If rape happened at the same frequency as false accusations, it would still be an issue and it would be wrong to try and discount the pain felt by those who are raped. Because it is not a matter of how many people are not having autonomy over their body, it is the fact that anybody is being denied body autonomy.
That is why when I am arguing with pro-lifers and they try and claim that only 1% of abortions are because of rape, I tell them “so what?” It is wrong to tell any raped woman that she should be prevented from having autonomy over her own body. (Of course, it is wrong to tell anyone that they do not have autonomy over their own body)
I guarantee you that you would flip out (and rightly so) if an anti-choice embryo lover said that rape statistics in abortion do not matter because they do not happen at a large enough frequency. Right?
So that is why to me, frequency does not matter. If it is wrong, it is wrong.
lj4adotcomdan:
“Are you saying it is all implicit?”
I think, although maybe some people here disagree with me, that it is almost entirely implicit and subconscious. When you say that you have “problems with the idea that we live in a ‘rape culture'” because “most people in our society believe that rape is wrong,” you’re completely ignoring the parts of it that are implicit and subconscious. A person can consciously find rape abhorrent and still subconsciously hold a number of beliefs and assumptions that excuse rape, and this is what rape culture most often entails.
“Do you feel (or have others in support of the idea that a rape culture exists) that the requirements when it comes to the burden of proof to convict in criminal cases makes it hard to convict people who committed rapes and as such contributes to the existence of a ‘rape culture’?”
No, burden of proof is not part of rape culture, and I don’t think anybody is saying that it is. Aspects of rape culture often masquerade as “burden of proof” during rape trials, precisely because they play on people’s unconscious beliefs and biases. When there is video footage proving that a rape took place and jurors still aren’t sure that the burden of proof has been met, that is rape culture.
To elaborate on my point, when people are operating under rape culture, they look at things that are very obviously rape, and they just can’t see rape. They look at a video of an obviously unconscious woman being violated with lit cigarettes and pool cues, but way in the back of their mind there’s the assumption “slut=unrapeable,” and it breaks their ability to detect rape when they’re looking right at it. They don’t say, “well, rape is morally acceptable in this case,” they say, “I dunno, it doesn’t really seem like rape to me…”
If you were to ask those VERY SAME JURORS whether they think it’s okay to rape a woman just because she is promiscuous and uses drugs, I am certain they would say no. But that is not evidence that they aren’t unknowingly participating in rape culture.
“So that is why to me, frequency does not matter.”
In this case it does. Higher frequency means bigger problem.
mamral, I agree with you on the burden of proof. Furthermore, the mark of the rape culture is visible when “innocent until proven guilty” become “accuser is guilty/a lier until the accused is proven guilty” or “accuser is guilty if there wasn’t enough evidences”
Once again, that’s something you almost only hear about rape.
Kathleen:
They don’t?
MRAL:
So you came here to point out you don’t have time to come here?
kilo:
“A woman who wants to have sex with you is likely to wear sexy clothes” is not the same thing as “a woman wearing sex clothes probably wants to have sex with you.” I could go outside right now and find half a dozen women dressed in a way I find sex who, when they got dressed, were totally unaware of my existance, and certainly hadn’t formed any opinons about me or my desirability or given any thought to gaming my tastes.
dan:
Except people do believe that.
kirby:
I think he thinks the words don’t mean anything, just, since they are used by people who are disagreeing with him, they must be bad. So he’s talismanically using them right back at us in the hopes of them having the same effect.
He’s not eating our brains to try and get our rhetorical skills, though, so I’m happy.
Slavey:
That’s not actually anyone’s definition except yours. Or, as you would call it, a “biological fact.”
Slavey:
Put in a trial and I’d be totally fine with that. I’m opposed to anyone being imprisoned without trial, no matter what they’re accused of, even if they’re guilty.
Brandon:
I don’t know if someone should necessarily be put in prison for that, depending on the circumstances — I think that would be impractical as a rule. Is it rapey behavior? Hard to say. I certainly couldn’t say with certitude that it’s not.
Slavey:
Um, yes? Partially. When the victim is a woman. She’d have the opportunity to testify. At a trial. Which would be held to determine if the accused should be punished.
How is it that you can find the law that abolishes trials even though that never happened but you can’t see the word “consent” in the thing you yourself cited?
Other than that you assume words have magic properties rather than meanings, I guess.
Stephanie:
In Brandonia, no one who’s had sex on video can ever be raped.
Actually, I’m going to guess he’ll say no because if she weren’t a slutty Slut McSlutterson who wants all the sex, she wouldn’t have let anyone make a sex tape to begin with.
dan:
Why? Victims are just as failed either way.
dan (“pardon me for breathing” apology redacted):
When you put it out there like that, of course people don’t explicitly agree. But at the same time, on the whole, people don’t behave as though they disagree.
Viscaria:
In other words, if you know 30 women you almost certainly know a rape survivor.
Dan, you’re not the first person to come in here and say “I had a terrible experience undreamt of in strawfeminist philosophy.” Yours isn’t even the most terrible. And it doesn’t make you right either.
@lj4adotcomdan
“I guarantee you that you would flip out (and rightly so) if an anti-choice embryo lover said that rape statistics in abortion do not matter because they do not happen at a large enough frequency. Right?
So that is why to me, frequency does not matter. If it is wrong, it is wrong.”
Do you really not understand the difference between that, and the 500:1 ratio of rapes (unreported and reported) vs. false rape accusations? We’re talking apples and oranges here.
As I said before, false rape accusations ARE wrong.
The equivalent of a pro-lifer claiming that no abortions should be granted even if the woman was raped (if we assume the same ratio) would be more like… all rape accusations should result in the immediate imprisonment of the accused, even if its a false accusation. Which is not what anybody is advocating here.
Dan: Why are you trying to make it seem like Stephanie’s comment was at all discounting the pain felt by those affected by false rape accusations? That’s just weird. You come here and say that you were falsely accused. No one questioned it. In fact, you got a bunch of people saying that they were really sorry that happened, that it was a shitty thing, that it was wrong. And now you’re pretending that one of those people who sympathized with you “discounted” the pain felt by people who have been wrongly accused? That’s really shitty, Dan.
In case it wasn’t clear, I was expressing shock at the fact that anyone wouldn’t consider 17% of women prevalent, not agreeing with it >_>
The more Dan writes, the less credible I find him.
“So that is why to me, frequency does not matter. If it is wrong, it is wrong.”
I am sure there are people here with more educated opinions on this than I have, but I think in this particular case, frequency does matter, because unfortunately people being wrongly convicted inherent to our process. The only way to bring it down to zero is to stop prosecuting crimes at all, which our society has decided is unacceptable. The only thing we can do is try to minimize the number of false positives without having too many false negatives, which means we should look at frequencies. Maybe some crimes have an abnormally high rates of false conviction, and maybe that can be addressed by reforming the process, or by refining the tools that investigators use. It seems that the rate at which people are falsely convicted for rape is so low that the only way to improve things would be to stop prosecuting rape altogether. I’m sure you understand why nobody here finds that desirable.
@stephanie
Honestly, I think they they do more damage because the media jumps all over the cases and present the accused as if they are guilty… and then when they turn out not guilty it puts a huge case into the minds of the general public where a woman did lie.
I do not see much info on MRA other than on their own blogs and on those blogs that criticize them.
Kyrie:
That is a very logical argument in support of the idea of a rape culture. Let me think about that some more. Very convincing argument.
@lj4adotcomdan
well you haven’t been talking to enough MRAs then. Whenever somebody challenges the MRA claim that false rape accusations are happening all the time, an MRA always cites the Duke case.
Have you ever read the comments under those articles that “the media jumps all over”? Almost every single person commenting on those articles blames the victim. Especially when the accused is somebody high-profile, or white.
Bee: My intent was to speak more generally and not specifically at Stephanie. If that is how I came off, I am sorry.
@lj4adotcomdan
“That is a very logical argument in support of the idea of a rape culture. Let me think about that some more. Very convincing argument.”
Here’s something else to think about:
stephanie: Maybe it is a good thing I havn’t spoken to enough of them.
Stephanie: Do we have information on how many rape interviews include the horrific lines of questioning?
Hearschle: “Dan, you’re not the first person to come in here and say “I had a terrible experience undreamt of in strawfeminist philosophy.” Yours isn’t even the most terrible. And it doesn’t make you right either.”
I never said it was undremt of nor did I suggest it was the most terrible nor did I say it made me right on any other issue.
@lj4adotcomdan
That is exactly how rape victims are treated by the police, by the entire legal process.
I’m thinking of a really good article about this but I can’t seem to find it at the moment.
By the way, if you want to understand how rape culture affects women, just go through the comments on this article:
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2008/10/feminism-101.html
Women fear rape, and alter their daily movements because of it in a way that you do not. Read those comments.
@lj4adotcomdan
Found it. Here you go.
http://community.feministing.com/2011/07/05/one-man-cried-wolf-women-cry-rape/
excerpt:
“However what is not reasonable is the method they can use to investigate, focusing on whether the woman is “crying rape” rather than whether the perpetrator is guilty or not. Joanne Holder knows from her experiences working with victims that the police “definitely question and doubt when victims tell them of any situation that might not be a stranger [rape] scenario” – acting on the myth of ‘real’ rape being committed by a stranger and anything else being viewed as suspicious, even though in reality only 8% of rapes are committed by strangers. This cultural and societal reaction along with the victims own confusion can make it very difficult to be taken seriously and treated the same as any other rape victim.
Some victims who report rapes and especially acquaintance rapes are still treated in insensitive ways; their morals and sexual history are put into question even though they are irrelevant. Antonella explains that she felt the police judged her not on her account and evidence she provided but on her sexual history and because she was wearing lingerie during the rape. Rape cases are notoriously difficult to reach court as it has to be proven beforehand that a ‘guilty’ verdict is likely before a trial is allowed. Even though she had a letter in which he confessed to physically assaulting her and additional forensic evidence, her case never even reached the court room. She describes that “I couldn’t even explain myself, the police just had made their minds made up”. In partner rape cases there can be a strong argument that the rapist did not realise sex was not consensual just because they were already in a consensual relationship with the victim. Screaming “no” is not clear enough, struggling is not clear enough. What would be extremely clear in any other case, is not clear enough when a partner rapes the one they are meant to love. Antonella describes her own experience of this, “they said to me yes it’s non-consensual but we have no proof that he knew what he was doing was wrong.” She also feels that she was not in a fit emotional state to make a statement but once she had made one, they “twisted” her words against her; “I said I wanted to take control meaning I felt I had no other choice. I was trying to see how I could control my safety and make it stop. They twisted everything, saying I wanted to take control meaning I was consenting.”. Antonella’s experience with the police strongly echoes that of many other survivors. It is disturbing to know that this treatment is so widespread. It is not a one off.”
I’ve sat in on quite a few rape interviews, and the “rape analogy” that Stephanie linked to isn’t far off from what’s happened in every single one of those interviews. And in those cases, it’s not that the officer is being an asshole; it’s just that those are issues that are going to be brought up if the case goes to trial, or the answers to those questions are going to establish the elements of the case.
Worse, if the victim is young or mentally disabled, the officer usually lectures her on her decision-making. What was she doing out so late? With a boy she met on the internet? Do her parents know she was drinking? Is she going to change her behavior in the future? Etc. To a girl or a woman who was raped only hours before.
So, I dunno what you consider “horrific.” I’d say most of the time it’s done in a way that’s fairly insensitive to the reality that they’re dealing with a victim of trauma. And again, part of that is that the officer is trying to get information, and he’s not not representing the victim, he’s representing the state. Sometimes it’s because they’re undertrained or unaware of what is relevant in a rape case and their idea of what might be relevant is informed by culture. And sometimes it’s because they don’t like the case and they don’t like the victim, and they don’t believe her story. (I’ve seen this happen to homeless people, in particular.)
I remember one particularly lovely case I read about in college where a victim in London wasn’t even allowed to get dressed after her rape. The police walked her around identifying locations, etc, wrapped in a blanket, and then questioned her. While she was naked and surrounded by strange men, right after being raped.
This is one on many reasons why I have no patience at all for our skeptical friend here. He needs to shut up and go read some trial transcripts, and then get back to us.
@Casssandrasays: I’m with you. Even if you limit yourself to what is available on the internet as opposed to the more limited access research, there’s a huge amount out there to use in self-education. At some point, a man demanding that a group of poeple, many of them women, take their time to educate him for free, especially after spouting some bullshit, is engaging in a less obvious but still TROLLING fashion. So yeah, TROLL demands.
@ithiliana
“At some point, a man demanding that a group of poeple, many of them women, take their time to educate him for free, especially after spouting some bullshit, is engaging in a less obvious but still TROLLING fashion. So yeah, TROLL demands.”
Yeah, its getting annoying. I’m not posting any more links for him, he can do his own homework.
I’m still giving him the evil eye for the claim that 1 in 6 is not enough to be counted as prevalent. That’s so ridiculous it’s just not even worth engaging with. There is no other crime in which people would go, oh, it happens to one person in every 6? That’s not particularly prevalent then.
I totally get it, but (a) I like talking about rape (sometimes — in a weird way). It’s something that I know a lot about. It horrifies me that people have all these weird ideas about rape, even as they claim to be well-informed. And (b) talking about Dan’s misconceptions about rape is more entertaining to me than either milkslave or Meller on the other living threads, who are both fucking dull as fucking dull people.
We need a better troll. I vote for amira (again).
I still think Meller is the most entertaining troll of all time. He’s Steampunk Timecube Gor man.
He’s entertaining in his way, but I think I reached my exclamation point limit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seriously, though, if he’s ever up for someone to make a documentary about him, I would watch it, probably.
I just sincerely hope he takes my offer of a long extended debate on my turf. I really, truly want to see the long form serious debate Meller.
Also, ithiliana being a troll is lulzalicious.
Viscaria: I think it’s pretty clear we’re on the same side of this one; I was expanding on what you said, not correcting it.
@Stephanie: So, the moment i see a logical argument towards the idea that a rape culture exists you are now going to side with ithiliana that I am being trollish? Seriously?
@ithiliana I have never distorted the words of anyone on here yet you consistently did that to me. Despite the fact that you acted in a vile matter towards me I actually was taking the time to look at the links you provided in hopes to understand what is being said and what is meant by the idea of a rape culture. How exactly does that fit the definition of ME being a troll?
Cassandra: Yes, 1 in 6 does not statistically count as prevalent. But again, as I have said repeatedly, that I reject the idea of 1 in 6 of ANYTHING qualifies as “prevalent” doesn’t mean that I don’t think that 1 in 6 women being raped is abhorrent and far too many. I do not know how many times I can restate that in a manner to which people might understand. 1 in 6 rapes is A LOT. It is an enormous number of rapes. It is a shit load of rapes. It is a horrifying number. If the prevailing number of people (5 in 6 or 3 in 4) are not raped, then NOT being raped is prevalent. You cannot say that being raped and not being raped is prevalent. It makes no sense. But again, just because something is not prevalent does not mean anything other than it is not prevalent. I can repeat this over and over and over again. Not sure what I need to say to explain it in any other way.
Bee: Does the fact that I said Kyrie made a very logical argument towards the existence of a rape culture not mean anything? Doesn’t that mean that I AM open to the idea and that i AM open to being proven wrong if I really am wrong? Or are you just also saying now that I am just a troll? i
zhinxy: From moment one ithiliana misrepresented my words, assumed words were there that did not exist, and treated me in a vile way. If that isn’t the behavior of an internet troll, I do not know what is.
@lj4adotcomdan
actually, what I agreed with is that I find it annoying that you’re pretty much demanding to be educated.
THAT is whats getting annoying. I’m pulling up links for you, going through my bookmarks, because you’re too lazy to do your own homework and educate yourself. And this is after I already redirected you to two awesome books about rape culture that I told you to read first.
I don’t view it that way. But regardless, I’ve been extending you the benefit of the doubt. Honestly. I hope you review the links I gave you, and especially recommend taking the time to watch the mises.org lecture on youtube.
Also, think about this – When people describe a “culture of materialism” or a “culture of fear” or descriptions of “culture” that do not relate to issues of gender and/or race, I note that people are much less resistant to the idea, whether or not they agree.
They rarely get UP IN ARMS about how THEY know plenty of people who don’t care how new their tv is, and really, “culture of materialism?!” look how old their shoes are!.
They rarely talk about how the nightly news in THEIR town is fine, and nobody’s worried about terrorists or pedophiles on the streets or razor blades in the candy! Now… Yes, these things may still NOT BE TRUE. I do question the extent of actual materialism and mindless consumerism in the American culture, and what it all means, for example. But it doesn’t cause screaming THAT’S NOT TRUE fights the way describing “a culture of” does when it comes to, say, how we deal with rape and consent, as questioned by feminist women.
Looking at it that way helped me take it seriously. Because I was once, well, there’s rape, and it’s bad, and it’s even institutionalized in a WAY, but “rape culture?”. But I went over to the feminist hive mind on the issue, and I have to say it’s really helped my thinking. And I got to stay a crazy libertarian, too!
“THAT is whats getting annoying. I’m pulling up links for you, going through my bookmarks, because you’re too lazy to do your own homework and educate yourself. And this is after I already redirected you to two awesome books about rape culture that I told you to read first.”
This too. It’s rude to expect everybody to do your homework. There’s plenty of stuff on Rape culture, and people don’t HAVE to give you any of it.
I am not “demanding” anything. I have asked for information. If people choose to give it that is their call. If people do not wish to give it, that is their call as well.
What I have read on my own research about the existence of a rape culture has not been enough to prove me wrong. So I am asking others, others who believe that it does exist, because perhaps they would have better arguments, or better links, or better explanations as to why my feelings about the issue are wrong.
Apparently, to some people, that is trollish behavior. I have never seen that definition of trolling before.
And even though I have already stated that someone has made a very good argument as to why I am wrong. How many trolls admit that they may have been wrong on an issue? I have been using the internet for a very long time and I have never once see a troll admit he/she was wrong.
zhinxy: I have forward the link to my email address and have segregated it into a different folder so it doesn’t get lost in all the mess. I havn’t taken the time to go over it yet but I do intend on doing it at some point this week.
I am not expecting anyone to do my homework. But sometimes doing homework requires asking people where to go to look when searching by yourself doesn’t yield satisfactory results. I have read many links discussing rape culture. I had seen nothing to convince me it really exists UNTIL I came on this thread and someone made a very logical and compelling argument in favor of its existence that I found fairly logically sound.
Dan, I said you have misconceptions about rape, and although you say you’re open minded and willing to learn, from what I’ve seen so far I’m not holding my breath. You seem more passionate about false rape accusations, actually. Which makes sense, given your background, and its not that that’s not an issue that people should be concerned with; it’s just that it’s something that always happens in rape discussions online. Every single time.
You may be open minded about rape culture. It’s just hard to tell when most of what you’ve had to say on the subject has ranged from “it’s just a patchwork of a bunch of pro-rape examples of things that happen in society today, and not really a culture” to “this one website used one word I don’t think is completely accurate.”
I second what Bee says.
lj4adotcomdan, maybe you’re just in denial about rape culture? Maybe you don’t want it to exist, because it comes into conflict with some sort of interest you have? Like maybe you have a vested interest in wanting to believe that false rapes are a huge problem, because its happened to you, and just believing in that makes you feel better? I don’t know, I’m just making things up. But maybe you are in denial. Because otherwise I don’t understand how you still don’t “get” rape culture.
Bee: I have also had to deal with what would legally be described as a rape as well. I was out on a date with a woman. Things were not going as well as perhaps she liked. We were at her house. I had no idea where her house was and she kept saying that she would drive me home as soon as we got down to business.
What didn’t help matters much was the fact that because of my false accusation, I was concerned about what she might do or how she might react if I did not give her what she wanted. So, even though I didn’t want to do it. I forced my way through it.
Now, I am not going to sit her and say that what happened to me was in any way close to being as invasive as what other victims go through. And the false accusation impacted me much more than what happened that night. But the false accusation also impacted me and made me behave in a way that I might have otherwise had the false accusation not taken place.
There is also something else…. something I am not comfortable discussing online at this time. But lets just leave it at I have enough experience on both sides of the coin to actively be concerned with both sides of the issue.
Many of those things that I said about rape culture, were said before I made the comment about the logical argument presented to me.
Now, I am not going to sit her and say that what happened to me was in any way close to being as invasive as what other victims go through. ”
Sit anywhere and claim that. You deserve no less than any other survivor, male or female.
stephanie: I have said repeatedly that false accusations of rape are not a huge problem. Not sure why you would suggest I might feel otherwise. Perhaps you have just not seen those posts on this thread where I have stated this.
Up until today, I have denied the existence of “rape culture” because up until today I had yet to hear an argument that might convince me otherwise. The argument made earlier helps. But denying the rape culture had nothing to do with how anything impacted me. I just had not seen arguments that made me agree with what was being said. The argument that perhaps the reason why false accusations would harm real rape victims is because of an underlying rape culture is a very compelling one.
Actually, the fact that we have a man feeling unsure about whether or not a woman coercing him into sex is rape? That’s rape culture too.
I am too weary to explain why to this particular person though. Stressful day, ability to deal with obtuse people low right now.
I have a question to those that have been harsh to me (i.e. not Bee, zhinxy, stephanie and others who did participate in the conversation with me without being terrible).
Why do you just assume that everyone who does not agree that there is a rape culture is a horrible person that must be treated like garbage?
Wouldn’t that tend to drive away people who are not haters of women but who just need a little bit more than what might be out there to be convinced?
Well, when you’re so far in denial that you’d probably need to get a ten tonne weight to ram something through your thick skull, then reading stuff isn’t going to sink in, is it? Besides, it’s not everyone’s job here to fix your fucking misconceptions.
You might want to consider that when one in six women is raped at some point in their life, then the practice is endemic in culture. Possibly as many as one in ten men has suffered a sexual assault (including rape), many of those when they were children – the figures are complicated, and denialists like you aren’t helping promote visibility of male abuse. If similar numbers of people were murdered, i.e. not dying of natural causes or death by accident then we would speak of a death culture or a murder culture. So why do you have a problem with the term “rape culture”? Demographically, it’s far more prevalent than false accusations of rape.
In case you hadn’t notice, people make excuses for rape when it does occur, people joke about rape, people shame the victims of rape (especially if they are men), the police often treat accusations with scepticism or even contempt, the legal system finds it difficult to prosecute, courts frequently re-victimise the accuser, juries often will be sympathetic to the accused, and judges have often ruled rape out owing to the victim’s contributed negligence. And that’s in Western countries – take a look at some non-Western societies if you need to enlarge your horizons. That you apparently seem to be blind to these sorts of issues to this tells me you have very poor observation and reading skills.
Unobservant troll is unobservant (that’s in addition to being concerned, and very stupid).
And you’ve trolled this thread for a day or more, and you’re still issuing rape apologetics. In case you aren’t aware, a number of commenters on this thread are victims of rape, and even after twenty years, fucking idiots like you trigger me — which is why I kept out of this thread until now, but you’ve really upset me. Kindly fuck off.
I’m sure this is true, and that sucks, and yet I 100 percent stand by my statement that you seem more passionate about the false rape accusation issue and that every online discussion of rape is derailed into a discussion of false rape accusations.
The thing is, even with this revelation that one commenter here amazingly put forth a description that you finally accept as valid — I hope you’ll forgive me if I point out that that also sounds like something a troll on a feminist site would say.
Awesome, now he’s tone trolling.
This is why I keep refusing to engage. Not in the mood to do 101 work right now.
Cassandra
I came to that realization about 2 minutes ago. Right along with the realization that the likely reason I did not report it or talk about it to anyone because I felt nobody would believe me.
xanthe: I am going to take a deep breath here and just assume you had not read some of my more recent posts before responding to your post (most specifically my last comment to Bee).
Congratulations. Now take that revelation and apply it to female victims too. And take a moment to recognise that most of us had the revelation you experienced a long time ago, thus the irritation and having to deal with someone going NO, I DON’T GET IT, IT’S NOT TRUE, YOU MUST PROVE IT TO ME OR IT DOESN’T EXIST.
I am sorry that happened, Dan, that’s terrible.
@Hershele, I figured, but I communicate really poorly sometimes and I just wanted to make absolutely sure I wasn’t sending the wrong message :)
PS – When I was in high school, my boyfriend was gang raped. Even his own brother and his friends questioned what he might have done to make it happen. That right there? Rape culture.
The only people who offered him any support at all during that time? All feminists.
Cassandra: How is continuously calling me a troll refusing to engage? Seems rather passive aggressive to me. But it is engaging.
So are you saying that you are denying my story that I shared about my encounter with that woman?
Dan: If it hadn’t been for my mom, I would never have said anything about the guy who tried to kidnap me – I was convinced that it was somehow my fault, that no one would believe me. I was twelve years old. I’d had all the usual ‘don’t talk to strangers’ training and the ‘don’t be afraid to say something’ stuff that kids of my age got, and I was still convinced that I had done something to make that guy try to snatch me and then expose himself to me. This shit is pervasive, you don’t realize quite how deep it’s gotten until you start to question some of the assumptions society makes about sex and consent and rape.
He confessed, plead guilty, and got something like four months in jail. It’s been over twenty years, and I still get panic attacks when the local news reports attempted kidnappings. He got his jollies, I got a lifetime of trauma.
She’s not saying that at all.
Cassandra: I asked people who believed in it because after the research I had done I had not been convinced. Someone here has given me information that, along with my personal experiences, has pretty much convinced me (honestly I am too emotional right now to make a logical and rational decision so i cannot say for certain).
But you keep driving that stake in… why?
You are being called a troll because you are behaving in a trollish way. Including by saying that I’m denying your story right after your supposed moment of revelation, which was entirely dependent on a comment that I made that assumed that your account of your experience was true.
zhinxy: If I am a “troll”, why would she believe anything I said?
“But you keep driving that stake in… why?”
Because what you are doing here is hurting other commenters who have been victims of rape. Stop it, right now, or go away.
lj4adotcomdon: Rape is not prevalent.
prev·a·lent [prev-uh-luhnt] adjective
1.widespread; of wide extent or occurrence; in general use or acceptance.
2. having the superiority or ascendancy.
3. Archaic. effectual or efficacious.
Origin: 1570–80; < Latin praevalent- (stem of praevalēns), present participle of praevalēre to prevail. See pre-, -valent
You said one in six. That’s almost 17 percent. I’d say that’s pretty fucking widespread. If one in six people were burgled in a lifetime the country would be up in arms. But rape… who cares about that, only one in six (which is to say with five sisters I’m really damned lucky that one of them hasn’t yet been a rape victim).
You are being wilfully blind. When you say that rape isn’t a massive (imagine that one in six people were beaten to unconsciousness) prevalent you are suborning a rape culture. Not a subculture, but a culture.
It doesn’t matter if the real numbers are much less than that. You are willing to say that one in six isn’t prevalent.
Rape is a much more dangerous and much more frequent crime than the crime of making a false accusation of rape. The crime of rape deserves much more attention and much more of an effort in prevention than the crime of a false accusation of rape. That I believe the crime of false accusation of rape deserves more attention than it currently gets in no way makes me a rape apologist.
Bullshit. Given the disparate effects of the two, and the difference in response when prosecutions are actually performed, rape deserves far more attention than it gets. Rape, when brought to trial has a pathetically low rate of conviction. Because of how prosecutors are evaluated (percentage of presented cases which result in conviction) we can be reasonably certain the cases brought to trial are the strongest, but rape has the lowest rate of conviction.
So (see above about rape culture) a false accusation has a far smaller effect than an actual rape, and has a higher rate of conviction.
Your concerns are misplaced and support the rape culture you deny.
ithiliana: @Bee: At one time in one of the last Troll Discussions of “omg how horrible false accusations are they hurt so many men,” someone here (Pecunium I think! but don’t quote me) had a really good post about the percentage of false rape accusations (i.e. they are no more prevalent than the false accusations of other crimes), so to single them out as somehow MORE prevalent and MORE painful and MORE likely to end up with the innocent men in prison, is, as we say in academia, problematic (meaning wronger than shit and stupid dickbiscuit move). When he (or the person who did post it if I’m wrong) joins us again, he might be able to repost. It was a useful post.
Might have been me. I’ve posted on that subject, and to that effect. Sadly my posts tend to be first draft and (mostly for reasons of proper indexing) I don’t save them.
@KathleenB: Wow, I am so very sorry you went through that. And yes, you are right. Sometimes you do not realize certain things until you start to question certain things.