Rapists, lad mags, and the Men’s Rights subreddit
Lad mags: Always covering the most important stories
What’s the difference between a lad mag and a rapist? Aside from one being a magazine and the other a person, albeit an reprehensible one, apparently not very much.
In a study soon to be published in the British Journal of Psychology, researchers at Middlesex University and the University of Surrey showed people quotes about women from British lad mags (FHM, Loaded, Nuts and Zoo) and from convicted rapists. Most survey respondents – men and women both – could not tell the difference between the quotes from the magazines and the quotes from the rapists. And most of the male respondents identified more with the quotes from the rapists than from the lad mags.
Here are some of the quotes the survey respondents were asked to react to. (You can find more at Jezebel.) Can you tell which of these are from rapists or lad mags?
Mascara running down the cheeks means they’ve just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.
You’ll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they’ll do it willingly.
Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?
I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.
In case you’re wondering, the correct answers are: Lad mag, Rapist, Rapist, Lad Mag.
Creepy, eh?
Lead researcher Miranda Horvath of Middlesex University explains why she feels this is so troubling:
Rapists try to justify their actions, suggesting that women lead men on, or want sex even when they say no, and there is clearly something wrong when people feel the sort of language used in a lads’ mag could have come from a convicted rapist.
I would say so.
And so, you might wonder, how did the regulars on the Men’s Rights subreddit react this this research? Take a look.
The comment with the most upvotes offered some nice juicy denial:
The comment with the second-highest number of upvotes completely missed the point:
And then there was this hot mess:
In case anyone is wondering, that quote from French is actually a quote from a character in one of her novels. And it’s pretty easy to distinguish it from things posted on Jezebel, because none of the writers on Jezebel ever say anything even remotely like that.
The Men’s Rights subreddit, responding to evidence of rape culture by going “la la la I can’t hear you” since March 2008.
Posted on December 11, 2011, in antifeminism, creepy, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, rape, rapey, reddit, that's not funny!. Bookmark the permalink. 758 Comments.
hellkell:
Considering Ithiniana has taken many of my comments out of context and has made many false assumptions about me, it is clear that Ithiliana is full of shit.
Ithiliana is more than welcome to prove me wrong and go read those posts I linked to.
stephanie:
I don’t wish to pry about your age, but how long ago were those sex ed classes? And in what area of the country did they take place in?
And how many sex ed classes do you believe teach that you cannot expect a man to stop in the middle of sex?
Yes, it is an HORRIBLE lesson to teach children. Every person should know that at any point any party involved as the right to stop because every person has the right to body autonomy.
@Hellkell: COOKIES! NOM NOM NOM! (imagine Cookie Monster munching down MONSTROUS GOOD COOKIES!!!!!!!).
Thank you!
@LJ4: You read the top five posts I linked to in my Rape Culture search, and I might consider reading some of yours.
There will be a quiz, first, though I warn you.
klopbop: Oh wow, I just read what you posted. Yes that was rape and yes he is a dangerous person because as others said, you do not know how many others he did that with. I am very sorry you had to go through that.
Ithiliana, you’re welcome, and your orientation packet is in the mail.
ithiliana: Do you remember what page it is on?
lj4: go find it yourself.
What IS IT with the clueless yet overentitled dudes who come up in here and demand things, up to and including education? They’re never original or funny (except inadvertently).
hellkell: I was just asking. Sheesh. And I did go find the page with the link before I read your post.
Because I ask questions I am clueless and over entitled? That is just laughable.
@lj4adotcomdan
I’m 24. These classes would have started in grade 7, which was in 2000. Not that long ago. And I live in Toronto, which is an extremely liberal, progressive city…. I can only imagine what goes on in some states in the U.S., where they have abstinence-only education (they do not have that here, at least in my school board).
I don’t have any statistics to tell you about “how many” different sex ed programs teach that. The point is that this is one example of an attitude that comes from a culture which believes that women cannot withdraw consent once sex has started.
@lj4adotcomdan
regarding your story about the frat boys with the rape whistle…
what would you say if I told you that 10% of college aged men will admit to rape, as long as the word “rape” isn’t used? There’s been over a dozen studies on this. Thomas from Yes Means Yes talks about one ( http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/ ) but there are many more that have estimated there are a lot more rapists than in the study he looks at. I can’t seem to find the link at the moment.
Those frat boys that you’re speaking about are part of that 10%. Yet they don’t think of themselves as rapists.
So 10% of men are going around raping people, 1 out of 4 women are raped by the time they are in university, yet you still don’t believe in a rape culture?
Oh, here’s a list of all the studies that have estimated that 5 – 15 % of university-aged men have raped:
http://www2.binghamton.edu/counseling/documents/RAPE_FACT_SHEET1.pdf
Dan, I’m totally baffled, then. You say you’re open minded to proof that a rape culture does exist, but you just don’t believe it because you think that most people don’t blame victims, don’t think that a woman is asking to be raped just because she has been intimate with her rapist in the past, is drunk, is wearing a low-cut blouse, etc. But the fact that studies on U.S. and British juries and the U.S. and British public show that these beliefs are prevalent doesn’t have any impact on you, and apparently you think that watching TV shows and movies, reading books and news articles and blogs about how the victim should have known better/really wanted it and how boys will be boys — none of that has any impact on the viewer and on their attitudes toward rape and rape victims.
I hope you’ll forgive me. I’m starting to feel like you’re not as open minded as you say.
Or maybe you don’t know what culture is? Do you understand that not everyone needs to actively endorse a thing in order for it to be an insidious part of our culture? Do you know what rape myths are? I feel like you’re saying that rape culture doesn’t exist based on the fact that there are feminist sites that call out rape culture and disagree with rape myths, or that victim advocates endorse the idea that no one “asks” to be raped. But these are reactions against rape culture.
I’m trying to think of an analogy. Just because I’m an atheist and my boyfriend is an atheist and most of my friends never talk about religion doesn’t mean that there is no judeo-christian culture in the U.S. Just because I don’t eat hotdogs and hamburgers or watch baseball doesn’t mean that there’s no such thing as American culture. Just because lots of Americans hate violence and don’t own guns doesn’t mean there’s no culture of violence in the U.S. What aren’t you getting here?
“I don’t wish to pry about your age, but how long ago were those sex ed classes? And in what area of the country did they take place in?”
You didn’t ask me, but just to corroborate, I am 25, and I was taught the exact same thing in health classes between the sixth and tenth grades (so a number of different teachers) in an extremely liberal suburb of Boston. No student ever said, “hey, that’s totally crazy and not in line with what I have been taught about who is in charge of what happens to women’s bodies,” and no parent ever complained. The idea that it’s unreasonable for a woman to revoke consent when it is inconvenient for a male sex partner is pretty pervasive, to the point that most people can’t even see what a gross, rapey idea it is.
Ok, going to the Marshall site that came up high in the search:
Rape is not prevalent. Most women will not be raped. http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims (1 out of 6 women will either be raped or be a victim of an attempted rape). This number is, of course, far to high and rape would be just as wrong if it happened to 1 in 2 women or 1 in 100. So I am not trying to trivialize the 1 in 6 number as that number is hardly trivial. But I am making the point that 1 in 6 does not satisfy the dictionary definition of prevalent.
As such, rape is not normalized.
There are examples of rape being excused in the media and popular culture. There are also examples of rape being condemned in the media and popular culture.
I can agree with that.
Most people limit behavior based on the existence of many other crimes. I do not walk down the street at night in a bad neighborhood because I am afraid I might get murdered. This does not mean we live in a murder culture.
I do have to get some other things done today so I will have to continue the reading later. But I have saved the search for future reference and study.
And yet there is only one state with a statute that recognizes that consent can be withdrawn after penetration, and seven states with case law that recognize withdrawal of consent. Nope! No rape culture here!
1 in 6 isn’t prevalent? What is the dictionary definition of prevalent?
“prev·a·lent (prv-lnt)
adj.
Widely or commonly occurring, existing, accepted, or practiced. See Synonyms at prevailing.”
Yep I think that fits. Rape is commonly occuring. 1 in 6 fits that definition.
@lj4adotcomdan
Please go read the sources I redirected you towards before. Maybe when you read them you will understand rape culture better. Everybody is telling you what it is, but these conversations are going in circles. Just read the books first.
http://manboobz.com/2011/12/11/rapists-lad-mags-and-the-mens-rights-subreddit/comment-page-3/#comment-95901
Approximately 1 in 6. Like, 17% of women. Not prevalent. Yeah okay good talk. Props to everyone actually willing to engage here, because I’m imagining it’s something vaguely akin to repeatedly running into a wall head-first.
LJ#4:
http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ie=UTF-8&ion=1&nord=1#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&nord=1&site=webhp&source=hp&q=rape%20culture%20site%3Aedu&pbx=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&fp=6b7d8689dc994193&ion=1&ion=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=6b7d8689dc994193&biw=1280&bih=939&ion=1
Rape culture plus site:edu (meaning USian universities). Check ‘em out.
@stephanie
The frat boys I spoke of openly admitted that they would use it while raping a woman.
Is the RAINN statistic wrong? Because RAINN says 1 in 6 are raped. Of course, as I said previously, 1 in 100 or 1 in 2, either would be too much.
According to the Marshall university definition, you have a “rape culture” where rape is “prevalent”. The definition of “prevalent” implies a majority. A majority of women are not raped.
I have another question but i am going to save it for a new post as it is for everyone.
lj4adotcomdan
If 1 in 6 (or whatever statistic you want to use) isn’t prevalent, would it be prevalent if you replaced the word “rape” with “murder”?
If 1 in 6 women were being murdered, and 1 in 10 men were murderers of women (and less than 10 percent of the time were actually reported to the police), would that be a prevalence of murders?
How would that NOT be a gendered genocide?
“Is the RAINN statistic wrong? Because RAINN says 1 in 6 are raped. Of course, as I said previously, 1 in 100 or 1 in 2, either would be too much. ”
Different studies have come up with different numbers. The most prevalent I’ve heard is 1 in 3 (if you’re not including the 1 out of 2 in South Africa), and the least prevalent is 1 in 6. I just say 1 in 4 because I think that’s the statistic that I heard first, many years ago. Plus I honestly believe its more than 1 out of 6, knowing how many of my friends have been raped.
Questions for everyone: Do I need to agree that there exists something called a “rape culture” in order to stand up against injustices done towards victims of rape?
Can I deny that our culture is a rape culture while concurrently seeking to:
A) Educate people on the different forms of rape that they might not consider rape
B) Empower victims to increase the numbers of rapes reported and the number of rape kits collected so that they come forward and lock up a rapist before the rapist can rape again?
C) Increase funding to law enforcement so that more rape kits can be processed and not sitting on shelves
D) Train law enforcement to treat people making an accusation of rape with integrity and respoect
E) Educate people on what evidence is relevant in a rape trial and what is not relevant?
F) Taking any other steps to punish rapists and prevent future rapes?
AND
Can one be an activist to both help educate people on the realities of rape as listed above while also speaking out about the issue of false accusations of rape and how they not only hurt the falsely accused but they also hurt actual victims of rape?
Yeah, now that he claims 1 in 6 doesn’t meet the definition of prevalent, he’s losing whatever scant credibility he came in with.
“The definition of “prevalent” implies a majority.”
No it does not. I literally quoted a dictionary definition before, But here is another (Oxford):
“Widespread in a particular area or at a particular time.”
Prevalent does not necessarily mean ‘majority’. It means widespread.
I’m going to say not effectively, because you’re acting like rape happens in a vacuum and that attitudes about it aren’t influenced by the culture at large and vice versa.
So, because a university website describing rape culture to its students used the word “prevalent” when describing rape, and only one in six U.S. women is raped (although some are raped multiple times), and Dan thinks prevalent = majority, rape culture clearly does not exist! Well, *wipes hands* my work is clearly done then. I shall retire.
1. The Marshall website is one site that one university created. Who created it? Why? What training did they have? We don’t know, but Dan knows that this is the Best Definition of Rape Culture Ever.
2. “Prevalent” according to the dictionary means common or widespread. But Dan knows better. It actually means a majority, and since less than 50% of all U.S. women get raped, and Marshall’s website on rape culture said rape is prevalent, therefore there is no such thing as rape culture.
3. All other websites and descriptions of rape culture can go suck eggs. Because Marshall has a website that describes rape culture, and it said something that was worded incorrectly according to Dan’s understanding of the word “prevalent.” It’s misstatement negates all other definitions and descriptions of this thing that he’s really, really open-minded about and would like to believe, if only someone were able to describe it to him.
Logic x 3!
stephanie: I would say that prevalent would potentially be the wrong word as most of the dictionaries I am seeing seem to imply a majority.
Again, this is not to diminish or in any other way discount or dismiss the numbers as being trivial (as I am afraid some here (not you) might assume if I just leave it at the first sentence alone).
Looking at the numbers another way, 5 out of 6 (or 3 out of 4) women are not raped and 9 out of 10 men do not rape. To me, that is not enough to say that we have a “rape culture” and other evidence would be needed.
…so this is what talking to a brick wall is like.
lj4adotcomdan
What about sexual harassment? Almost every single woman I know has been sexually harassed.
Like this:
http://www.leftycartoons.com/street-harassment/?ref=nf
Street harassment, groping, stalking, any sort of unwanted, threatening sexual attention… almost every woman has experienced that.
If you think of rape culture as a continuum, all those forms of sexual harassment are PART of rape culture. Women’s bodies being treated like property IS rape culture. It doesn’t necessarily have to lead to rape in every instance, but it CAN.
I looked at several definitions of prevalent. Some did mention widespread but also implied that it also had to be dominant or generally accepted.
And yes, hell kell, I would like to see why 1 in 6 meets your definition of widespread. 5 in 6 would. 3 in 6 would. Not sure 1 in 6 qualifies.
Look at the root: late 16th century: from Latin praevalent- ‘having greater power’, from the verb praevalere (see prevail)
caraz: Brick walls do not talk back. Brick walls would not admit that they might be wrong. Brick walls are not interested in learning via debate of the issues.
So no, it is not.
Agree with hellkell on question 1. And would add that the fact that you are so oblivious to what rape culture is and does, and so intent on denying it, shows that you really don’t understand rape, rape myths, what rape victims deal with, how rapists use these myths to hide their crimes, etc. An effective advocate would have some working knowledge of these things, or at least a willingness to learn.
Why? Are you thinking that you want to pursue anti-rape activism as a career, or volunteer work?
Well, listen. My professor actually did a really great job on this when one of my classmates started talking about false accusations. She acknowledged that it’s a problem, that it exists, and that it hurts everyone. But she quickly turned the conversation back to rape, and how one of the rape myths that harms victims is that women frequently lie about being raped, that they lie about it because they regret consenting, and that this is a commonly held myth that rapists rely on if they’re accused. I think she addressed it by saying something like this: Yes, false accusations happen, and research shows that it’s infrequent. Most reported rapes end up not going to trial; most of the cases that go to trial end up being acquitted; most of the cases that aren’t acquitted result in less than two years of jail time. So, while it’s unfortunate that any false accusations are made, its important to see them in the larger perspective of how rape accusations are treated in the legal system. And then she continued with the class.
It’s another thing to let false accusation talk derail the conversation. If false accusations are your “thing” and that’s what you really want to focus on, then focus on it. Too often talking about rape ends up in a derailment about false accusations, and, frankly, that says a lot about this rape culture that you think doesn’t exist.
lj4adotcomdan, do you get that rape culture isn’t something that operates on people’s conscious reasoning, and that its participants are generally completely unaware that it exists? You seem to be really resistant to the concept because you know that most people do not self identify as pro-rape (which is true) but that is orthogonal to what people are discussing here. Do you understand that?
Honestly the only one that doesn’t apply seems to be the talking back thing. In some ways I see that as an advantage of the wall.
@Bee: At one time in one of the last Troll Discussions of “omg how horrible false accusations are they hurt so many men,” someone here (Pecunium I think! but don’t quote me) had a really good post about the percentage of false rape accusations (i.e. they are no more prevalent than the false accusations of other crimes), so to single them out as somehow MORE prevalent and MORE painful and MORE likely to end up with the innocent men in prison, is, as we say in academia, problematic (meaning wronger than shit and stupid dickbiscuit move). When he (or the person who did post it if I’m wrong) joins us again, he might be able to repost. It was a useful post.
But yes, given how MANY MANY discussions among women about rape get derailed by MALE TROLL SHITHEAD barging in to blather on about false rape accusations by horrible, evil women (as opposed to the VERY REAL ISSUE of men raping men), against innocent men, then yeah: it’s rape culture, it’s sexism, it’s patriarchal ideology (“the man is always the most important person in the discussion), and often, it’s nasty and triggering as hell to the women involved.
So: Troll Dude wanders in pretending to be equally concerned about rape (but no such thing as rape culture exists), and false rape accusations (against men).
When presented with lots of evidence about rape culture and its omnipresent, institutionalized, cultural elements, he denies it all based on his BELIEF and the fact that it’s not literal rape.
When presented with evidence about “literal rape,” he decides that it’s not “majority” enough to be rape culture, and wants to ask us how he can be an advocate for rape victims and the victims of false rape accusations (again, false equivalency).
And I would imagine Stephanie’s excellent explanation of the CONTINUUM of rape culture will also be met with flatout denial and lack of belief.
Obvious CLUELESSTROLL is obvious in his male privilege, rape apologism, and denial (especially with the semantic quibbling over what statistical minimum would meet the dictionary definition of prevalent).
ithiliana: Yeah, it’s something I’ve done a lot of research on over the years. This is a really good, accessible blog post that kind of lays out the findings about false rape accusations and some of the problems with even trying to define what a “false accusation” is.
Stephanie: I do believe that there is institutionalized sexism and part of that is contributed by the harassment that can occur in many forms.
LJ: have you ever heard of the Innocence Project or related ones that actually work to get innocent men out of prison (majority in Texas are Black of course, because RACIST CULTURE)? Do you contribute in any way to such efforts? Or do you think your best choice to help innocent men who are in prison (often, because of racist white prosecutions and not evil women making false accusations of rape) is to lecture a lot of people (many of them feminists, many of them women) on a blog dedicated to mocking misogyny?
Clue: Get one, plz.
@Bee: need to shop (OUT OF CAT FOOD OMG), but will check later. I do know that MRA/trollz conflate all cases, including the ones where no conviction occurred, and the ones that are driven by police and prosecutorial misconduct, to make it all (no surprise), the women’s fault!
@Bee
“My professor actually did a really great job on this when one of my classmates started talking about false accusations. She acknowledged that it’s a problem, that it exists, and that it hurts everyone. But she quickly turned the conversation back to rape, and how one of the rape myths that harms victims is that women frequently lie about being raped, that they lie about it because they regret consenting, and that this is a commonly held myth that rapists rely on if they’re accused. I think she addressed it by saying something like this: Yes, false accusations happen, and research shows that it’s infrequent. Most reported rapes end up not going to trial; most of the cases that go to trial end up being acquitted; most of the cases that aren’t acquitted result in less than two years of jail time. So, while it’s unfortunate that any false accusations are made, its important to see them in the larger perspective of how rape accusations are treated in the legal system. And then she continued with the class.”
I really like that approach.
Obvious CLUELESSTROLL also wants to play NWO’s “word root” game. Fuck that disingenuous noise.
@ Stephanie re. Rooshy – Holy shit indeed. Just how is “Rape Game” supposed to be different from plain ol’ rape again?
ithiliana: wow. Again, how you are not considered the troll here is beyond me.
I NEVER, I repeat NEVER… I repeat again NEVER said that I am equally concerned about rape and false accusations of rape. That is YOUR strawman argument that you keep repeating over and over again (ad nauseum) and it is absolutely untrue.
Rape is a much more dangerous and much more frequent crime than the crime of making a false accusation of rape. The crime of rape deserves much more attention and much more of an effort in prevention than the crime of a false accusation of rape. That I believe the crime of false accusation of rape deserves more attention than it currently gets in no way makes me a rape apologist.
AND I EVEN CALLED IT when I said that there would be people who would take my comments about how 1 in 6 didn’t equal “prevalence” and assume that it meant i was discounting or in other way dismissing those numbers. That is why I worded my statements in the way that I did, to make sure that people who bother to actually read comments would know that 1 in 6 is still way too much and that I was not trying to dismiss those who are raped by bringing up that comment. Of course, people like you are either unwilling or incapable of reading entire posts and as such the words were lost on you. But I did pretty much predict your trollish behavior and you proved me right.
right hell kell, we shouldn’t be worried about where words come from and what they actually mean. We should just make up definitions because they sound good.
Like calling an act that eliminates rights as a “patriot act” (as if one is not a patriot if one opposes it.
lj4adotcom, I would really like to hear your answer to my question upthread. I’m curious if that is part of the disconnect here.
It’s cute when one of our trolls tries to tell us words mean something.
Oh yuck, sorry about that, lj4adotcomdan.
Steph and Bee: I do not know the context in which the person brought up false accusations of rape in the classroom.
However, as a victim of a false accusation of rape, it seems like a rather unfortunate dismissal of the topic of false accusations of rape. To me, and maybe I am wrong, but it seemed to say that because it is so rare we shouldn’t worry about it.
See, in discussing the issue of false accusations before, women have come back at me sarcastically saying “oh yes, keep saying that women frequently lie about being raped”.
And no, I do not believe that women frequently lie about being raped. But some do, and it happened to me, and it is still painful to deal with.
Well, and just to reiterate what I said above, I’m not assuming that you’re dismissing the NUMBERS, I’m just amazed that you read one description of rape culture, saw that one of the ways that description referred to rape culture was as an environment where rape was “prevalent,” and decided that since one in six isn’t (in your mind) “prevalent” this confirms your initial belief that the entire concept of rape culture is whack, despite your totally open mind and willingness to learn.
That’s what I find bizarre about your comment, Dan.
mamram: Could I ask you to give me the question again? I would be more than happy to answer it.
Sure:
“do you get that rape culture isn’t something that operates on people’s conscious reasoning, and that its participants are generally completely unaware that it exists? You seem to be really resistant to the concept because you know that most people do not self identify as pro-rape (which is true) but that is orthogonal to what people are discussing here. Do you understand that?”
Or to put it a different way, I’m wondering if you are on the same page as everybody else as to the nature of rape culture: that it’s a set of implicit cultural assumptions that are held subconsciously for the most part, not a deliberate thing. You have made a number of comments that indicate that make me wonder if you are getting that point. So are you?
bee: I am sorry if I wasn’t more clear. I found the Marshall definition of rape culture to be contradictory because it requires rape to be “prevalent” and I guess I find the use of that word typically to mean something that prevails, i.e. is the most likely thing to happen and when it is 1 out of 6 or 1 out of 4, that is far too much but it is not prevalent.
I am not saying that my dismissal of the Marshall definition means that I dismiss all definitions. I was just dealing with that specific definition that Marshall gives and my problem with it.
I hope that is a little more clear.
I will go look at the other sites that ithiliana suggsted, even though I find ithiliana to be a horrid person so far. I will also look at the other links suggested as well.
Tres vrai. But what is your purpose in stating the obvious in reply to what I posted?
Presumed innocence is a fundamental tenet of american criminal law; and the crime of rape is no exception. A person accused of rape for whom charges have been filed does indeed have the right to a fair trial. By that I mean that burden of proof rests on the prosecution to PROVE that the defendant is guilty and NOT on the defendant to prove that he(or she) is innocent!
Dan, it was a class about how to represent rape and sexual assault victims. Believe me, it wasn’t that my professor was saying that no one in any context should ever worry about/think about false accusations. But in a setting where people were trying to learn how to advocate for rape victims, it was a derail.
And again, the myth that women report rape when consensual sex occurred because they regret their consent is used ALL THE TIME as a defense in rape cases. Which isn’t to say that no one’s ever done that — but it’s good to keep that in mind. Not because we’re trying to diminish the painful effect of being legitimately falsely accused, but because we’re trying to get a complete picture of reality.
I’m sorry that you were falsely accused of rape. That must have been very difficult for you to deal with. FYI, I was raped and I didn’t report my rapists, because I knew I wouldn’t be believed.
“Rape in this country is surprisingly easy to get away with. The arrest rate last year was just 25 percent – a fraction of the rate for murder – 79 percent, and aggravated assault – 51 percent.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/09/cbsnews_investigates/main5590118.shtml
So you’re 3 times more likely to be arrested if accused of murder than of rape.
“The NVAWS estimated that only 18% of rape cases involving adult women
result in a conviction.”
http://www.uky.edu/CRVAW/files/TopTen/07_Rape_Prosecution.pdf
FBI statistics show false accusations are in line with other false crime accusations 6-8%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#False_reporting
“FBI reports consistently put the number of “unfounded” rape accusations around 8%. The average rate of unfounded reports for Index crimes is 2%.[8] However, “unfounded” is not synonymous with false allegation”
Rape apologist gets pissy when they’re called out for being apologists.
@lj4adotcomdan
I’m sorry that you were falsely accused of rape. That must have been a horrible experience to go through.
And clearly anybody that has been falsely accused of rape will deal with it in their own way, which is fine, and mentally healthy. I think this is what you were trying to do with your blog?
However, it is NOT okay to suddenly make it a political issue (e.g. becoming an MRA, rambling on about how false rape accusations are a major problem in this country, or that they are equivalent to actual rape, or even bringing up the topic of false rape accusations in an environment where people are discussing rape culture–an environment where many of those people are probably rape victims themselves).
False rape accusations happen, of course. Just like false accusations happen with any crime. However, they are NOT a political issue, they are NOT prevalent, and as other people have already stated, you are derailing from the topic of rape culture when you actually bring up false rape accusations.
The discourse surrounding false rape accusations is what contributes to rape culture. The professor that Bee quoted above said it best.
MsN, I pointed that out in response to you posting this:
which either showed a really major misunderstanding of how the criminal justice system functions in the States, or the belief that rape is handled in civil court.
And yes, hell kell, I would like to see why 1 in 6 meets your definition of widespread. 5 in 6 would. 3 in 6 would. Not sure 1 in 6 qualifies.
Dan, let me talk about an entirely different word for a minute, and how its meaning evolved. The word I have in mind is “decimate.” The literal, denotative meaning of “decimate” is “to kill or destroy 1/10th of a group.” To decimate a population is to kill 1 in every 10 people within it.
The connotative meaning of “decimate,” however, is something more like “to destroy, to wreak incredible damage upon, to devastate.”
So I want you to think for a minute. How is it that a word that means “to kill one tenth of” came to be understood as “to wreak incredible damage upon”? Could it possibly be because killing one tenth of a population has a tremendous effect on that population? That 1/10th of a group of people is a highly significant portion of that group? That something which significantly affects 1 in 10 members of a group is actually a REALLY BIG DEAL?
And if so, can you stop and think about what something that affects 1 in 6 must be like?
@lj4adotcomdan
I just want to add that I find it incredibly offensive when people treat false rape accusations like they are an actual political issue, or bring them up in a discussion about rape culture.
Out of all the women I have known in my life, first of all, almost every single one of them has been sexually harassed. Many women I have known have been sexually assaulted, or almost sexually assaulted. Many women I have have been raped. I also should add that I have known a couple of men that have been raped as well.
However, out of all the women I have ever known that have been a victim of rape or attempted rape or sexual assault, only ONE ever went to the police. And she didn’t even report the rape. She just reported that her boyfriend was abusing her, which he was, but she didn’t even mention the rape that had happened (I actually don’t think that she realized what had happened to her was rape).
She is the ONLY woman I have ever known that actually went to the police. None of the other women or men ever went to the police.
Furthermore, I have NEVER known anybody that has falsely accused somebody of rape, nor of anybody that has been falsely accused of rape.
Way too many people are getting raped, way too many people are not reporting their rape, and hardly anybody is ever getting falsely accused.
This is why I find it absolutely fucking offensive when somebody mentions the “problem” of false rape accusations when people are actually discussing the REALITY of rape.
manram: I would say that currently I see what is being defined as “rape culture” as partially implicit and partially explicit.
Are you saying it is all implicit?
I do have another question that may or may not be related. Do you feel (or have others in support of the idea that a rape culture exists) that the requirements when it comes to the burden of proof to convict in criminal cases makes it hard to convict people who committed rapes and as such contributes to the existence of a “rape culture”?
cynical:
That was not me being pissy at all.
Please explain to me why I am a “rape apologist”.
I am trying to learn why others believe there is a “rape culture” even though I currently do not understand why they believe it. To me, trying to learn why people believe something exists is not bad or wrong. Or are you trying to claim that if I don’t automatically believe what other people say without question then I am a rape apologist.
I clearly believe that rape is wrong and that the definition of rape is more than just saying no but also includes the inability to say yes in a clear and rational state. This is in opposition to many actual rape apologists believe? Is it that because I state that I am also a victim of a false accusation of rape that you believe I some how am a rape apologist?
Hell, I even oppose NWO and his moronic claims about the removal of the word “forced”. I stand in opposition to supposed MRA and their misogyny they use in combating the what they believe is “eeeevil” feminists attempting to subvert men in this country. I even confirm that I disagree with them and that there is an institutionalized sexism that exists in this country that benefits men over women in most areas of life.
So again, please, what makes me a “rape apologist”?
lj4a, it is odd that you are able to see the points (you provided yourself several examples!) but not the pattern. Maybe you are indeed a feminist, but then you are a feminist than need new glasses.
Prevalent. Words are tricky and language is always a complicated thing. The root of a word can be useful to understand it, but it’s not a definition. (Definitions can change but roots can’t)
Choosing to trust the root of the word (because it is your preconceived knowledge or because it helps your argument) rather than the dictionary definition that was provided is a trollish behavior.
You said you don’t believe we live in a rape culture but in the same time you refuse the widely accepted definition of this term. Which is weird. You seem to accept most facts that are given to you but refuse to call this, put together ‘rape culture’.
You can’t redefine rape culture. Rape culture never meant “half (or more) of all women will be raped in their life and this is officially endorsed” and if you want to argue there is no such thing as “rape culture” it can’t be done by arguing “this thing that you don’t thing fit in the definition is not true therefor you’re wrong”
Nobody who “believe” in rape culture believe it means rape happens to the majority of women. So twisting the definition of rape culture to make it include this part could also very well be seen as trollish.
Advice for internet arguments: don’t accuse your opponent of trolling if they are a regular commenter on the website. (and obviously, not considered as a troll in such place) It will make all your arguments sound weaker to the regular readers, commenters or lurkers.
” So I am not trying to trivialize the 1 in 6 number as that number is hardly trivial. But I am making the point that 1 in 6 does not satisfy the dictionary definition of prevalent.”
1 in 6 isn’t enough for you to consider rape prevalent? What, does it have to be over 50%? 75%?
After that statement I am not engaging with you any further. That was a genuinely disgusting thing to say. In a country with a population of 250 million, that is over 41 million victims. What in the hell is wrong with you that you don’t consider that prevalent enough to be evidence of a real cultural problem?
Not on topic, but about words. I’m trying to get my head around the terms “prevalence” and “incidence”, for work. Would it be correct to say “The prevalence of having-been-raped is 1 in 6 for women” and “The incidence of rape is X women per year.” Have I got that the right way around?
Stephanie: When I brought up the idea of false accusations in this argument, it is when I was questioning the idea of the rape culture.
“I also have problems with the idea that we live in a “rape culture” (of for that matter a “false rape culture” as MRA like to claim). Most people in our society believe that rape is wrong and believe that falsely accusing someone of rape is wrong. To me, both claims are absurd”
And when I brought it up, it was only to say that I dismiss the notion that we live in a “false rape society” just to make sure it was clear that I was not coming from the MRAtmosphere. It then spiraled out of control from there. I had no intention of making the discussion of this into a discussion of false accusations of rape.
I am not going to say that false rape accusations are in and of themselves a political issue. However, what I do have a problem with is when people automatically believe that the person must be guilty just because an accusation was made. We, as a society, can both treat people as innocent until proven guilty in a court of law while also treating a woman who makes a rape accusation with dignity and respect.
I also know women who have been raped (or who men tried to rape). My wife even kicked a potential rapist in his nuts when he tried to do something she did not want to do.
On the frequency of false accusations of rape and the relevance, what would happen if the likelihood of being raped was the exact same as the likelihood of being falsely accused of rape? How would you, in that hypothetical situation, react to someone who mentioned that because of the rarity that it shouldn’t be a political issue and that “hardly anyone is ever raped”?
False rape accusations are a small, tiny, miniscule problem compared to the problem of Rape. That doesn’t mean they should just be ignored, that the pain is not real, and that people should go unpunished.
Furthermore, I think the false accusers harm actual rape victims as well. Do you agree the false rape cases of Duke and Hofstra caused harm to real victims of rape who try and get justice?
Okay, so there are a few things going on here that I think you’re conflating. The burden of proof in a criminal case is that the state must prove that the rape happened beyond a reasonable doubt. The defense can claim the rape didn’t happen, it happened but the defendant didn’t do it, or it wasn’t rape it was consensual sex. Due to DNA testing availability, most defendants claim consent as a defense. I believe (though I’m not 100 percent sure) that the jury would weigh the evidence presented by the DA and the evidence presented by the defense to see whether the state has met its burden.
That aspect of a criminal trial doesn’t specifically get to what impact rape culture has on convictions. States have made a lot of changes to rape laws in the past few decades. Notably, marital rape is a crime, there are rape shield laws that say that a victim’s sexual history is generally inadmissible, there is no longer a witness requirement or a utmost resistance requirement. But some of these outdated notions still come into play in a criminal trial. Even though there are rape shield laws, if the defense finds a way to introduce evidence that the victim is a slut, they can discredit her. (See: the Kobe Bryant case, before the victim decided she didn’t want to testify.) Juries are hesitant to convict on marital rape charges. Because the defense consent creates a he said-she said argument that rests on likeability and credibility, jurors look for bruises and injuries to prove nonconsent or force, creating a default utmost resistance element. Jurors are likewise hesitant to convict in cases where the victim was drunk or on drugs — there’s no memory, and besides, why was she out drinking with this guy if she didn’t want to have sex with him?
These are all things that aren’t, strictly speaking, required as a part of the burden of proof, but are a part of most criminal rape cases, and are informed by rape culture and rape myths. Despite all the changes in rape law over the past few decades, the conviction rate remains the same. Society’s ideas about rape remain the same. If you read histories about rape jurisprudence, you read the same fucking things that you read in news articles, see in movies, and read on MRM blogs today. (Hell, if you read histories about misogyny, feminism, gender — same thing — although I feel like that drawing the line between misogyny/othering/denial of autonomy and rape culture is a little too advanced a topic for you today.)
“On the frequency of false accusations of rape and the relevance, what would happen if the likelihood of being raped was the exact same as the likelihood of being falsely accused of rape? How would you, in that hypothetical situation, react to someone who mentioned that because of the rarity that it shouldn’t be a political issue and that “hardly anyone is ever raped”? ”
We’re not dealing with “what-ifs” here, but actual realities. The reality here is that rape is a major problem, and even though false accusations happen, they should not be made an actual political issue the way MRAs make it.
If we lived in a society where false accusations happened as often as actual rape, then it wouldn’t be a rape culture. False rape accusations are estimated to be at about 2% of all rape accusations. Given that less than 10% of rapes are reported, and 2% of those accusations are false, the ratio of actual rapes (reported and unreported) vs men falsely accused of rape would be: 1000:2 or 500:1
(Please correct me if I did the math wrong).
So for every 1 man that was falsely accused of rape, 500 women were ACTUALLY raped, and 90% of those women did not report the rape.
If women were raped at the same prevalence as men falsely accused of rape… rape would be virtually a non-issue. Rape accusations would not be made, because they would hardly be happening. Same with false rape accusations.