Rapists, lad mags, and the Men’s Rights subreddit
Lad mags: Always covering the most important stories
What’s the difference between a lad mag and a rapist? Aside from one being a magazine and the other a person, albeit an reprehensible one, apparently not very much.
In a study soon to be published in the British Journal of Psychology, researchers at Middlesex University and the University of Surrey showed people quotes about women from British lad mags (FHM, Loaded, Nuts and Zoo) and from convicted rapists. Most survey respondents – men and women both – could not tell the difference between the quotes from the magazines and the quotes from the rapists. And most of the male respondents identified more with the quotes from the rapists than from the lad mags.
Here are some of the quotes the survey respondents were asked to react to. (You can find more at Jezebel.) Can you tell which of these are from rapists or lad mags?
Mascara running down the cheeks means they’ve just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.
You’ll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they’ll do it willingly.
Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?
I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.
In case you’re wondering, the correct answers are: Lad mag, Rapist, Rapist, Lad Mag.
Creepy, eh?
Lead researcher Miranda Horvath of Middlesex University explains why she feels this is so troubling:
Rapists try to justify their actions, suggesting that women lead men on, or want sex even when they say no, and there is clearly something wrong when people feel the sort of language used in a lads’ mag could have come from a convicted rapist.
I would say so.
And so, you might wonder, how did the regulars on the Men’s Rights subreddit react this this research? Take a look.
The comment with the most upvotes offered some nice juicy denial:
The comment with the second-highest number of upvotes completely missed the point:
And then there was this hot mess:
In case anyone is wondering, that quote from French is actually a quote from a character in one of her novels. And it’s pretty easy to distinguish it from things posted on Jezebel, because none of the writers on Jezebel ever say anything even remotely like that.
The Men’s Rights subreddit, responding to evidence of rape culture by going “la la la I can’t hear you” since March 2008.
Posted on December 11, 2011, in antifeminism, creepy, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, rape, rapey, reddit, that's not funny!. Bookmark the permalink. 758 Comments.
zhinxy: I vote that we always respond to NWO’s nonsense with stuff that has nothing to do with him: videos, recipes, funny cat pictures, etc. Because it would be a lot more fun than trying to get that asshat to see sense.
This is something I don’t understand, actually: is the FBI definition actually going to be used in any arrests or prosecutions? Or is it purely statistical?
Although at the same time I have the sinking feeling that the definition is in some ways always the same: “Whatever the cop who answers your call thinks it ought to be.” Sigh.
@KathleenB:
Seeing that NWO already responds to the hard questions with non-sequitors, we’d just be following along.
I see NWO is back with a new derail for this thread.
You can use “zie”!
You can use “zie”!
Darling, remember
It’s a third gender
Unlike “he” or “she”!
The boys and the girls might be the norm,
But some folks know they just don’t conform
To that binary –
It isn’t scary –
They just use “zie”!
*plays gender-neutral crab-bongos*
kirbywarp: It would be an epic circle of nonsense and non-sequitors. Eris would be pleased!
Polliwog: Holy crap, that is awesome. +a zillion internets for you.
As far as I can tell, the FBI definition is only for gathering data. So, presumably, since the new definition lines up a lot more precisely with statutory definitions of rape, we’ll see a big increase in federal crime figures and possibly federal funding to go along with it, because male/trans victims, victims of statutory rape, unconscious/intoxicated victims, etc., will be counted.
Things are much hotter, under the water, under the zie!
See, NWO, this is why the “zie creatures” are more fun at parties than you are.
NWO:
Ah, yes. So false accusations are less of a “definition of rape” problem and more of a “women are evil” problem. I see!
Bee:
Oops, I referred to it as law :-$ probably influenced by something NWO had said, which is… not the cleverest thing I’ve ever done.
I’m glad to see your CTRL-V is in working order. I was so worried about you.
Kirby: “Just to clarify, and take this as a completely separate point from everything else. You said that there could not be a rape culture, because officers you talked to denounced the one’s actions. I said that you could do the same thing with the catholic church, and in that case it is more obvious that there is a culture of something going on their (you’ve even agreed).”
I don’t think I said that there could not be a rape culture because the officers spoke with denounced the actions of one. I said that the police officer asking if she enjoyed it was not an example of their being a rape culture because many more officers oppose the method of asking her about that night.
“But mostly everyone on this site will tell you that from stories they hear about and people they talk to, this rape culture is a present and real thing. You’ll have to do some research on your own if you want to be convinced; focus your efforts on the experiences of women who have actually been raped, and their experiences with the justice system.”
I know that there are many ways in which our system has failed victims of rape. But for it to be classified as a Rape Culture/Rape Society that would seem to be to require it to be purposeful instead of just flawed.
doesn’t this new definition include male victims too?
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/advisory-policy-board/advisory_policy_board
it’s fucking gender neutral and MRAs are still in hysterics? didn’t they WANT men to be recognized as victims of rape as well? and FEMINISTS actually WORKED for men to be included into this new definition? the cognitive dissonance must drive them bananas.
MRAs- constantly proving that they don’t care about men, and only care about protecting abusers and rapists by trying to destroy rape and DV laws.
I also see NWO is being dumber and even more evil than usual…glad I went out tonight ._.
Freemage: I am familiar with the movie. Even when I was younger when I saw the scene I knew something was wrong with it.
Bad fiction doesn’t prove anything.
Polliwog, that is now my THEME SONG.
I think that if you looked at what led (or probably led) the officer to ask that question and found that it was not rooted in any common cultural belief, belief system, or common story told in the media, you’d be right. If the officer, say, were having a psychotic break and talking like our own little milkslave, without any ties to reality, you’d have a point.
But we can look around at movies, TV, and news stories and see that there are these ideas about rape that paint the rapist as a misunderstood, though possibly bumbling, romantic and the rape victim as someone who either belatedly regretted her consent or just needed to have her mind changed. We know that whether the victim “enjoyed it” has absolutely no bearing on whether rape occurred. And we can see where the idea that there is a connection between the victim’s (unwilling) sexual pleasure and whether or not the rape was a “real rape” comes from in our culture.
We also know that even if someone made a racist generalization about a people, and every single one of their peers condemned this racist generalization, that does not mean that the racist generalization came from nowhere. Most people know that certain unpopular ideas such as racism, sexism, etc. ableism, are wrong, but our culture is still rife with those -isms. I suggest that rape culture is similarly recognizably abhorrent (so that 3rd parties oppose it, when asked), and also just as prevalent.
There are other things you can look at to see rape culture, but it seems to me that other people have already mentioned them/linked to them, and you’re just ignoring them.
NWOSLAVE: You are absolutely ridiculous.
I would personally argue that any rape implies force so the inclusion of the word is redundant. But excluding forcible make sure that there is no wiggle room and that all forms of rape achieved without consent qualify.
NWO, please note – even other men who are being perceived by most of the commenters here as not exactly being supportive of feminist ideas about rape think that you’re batshit crazy. This does not bode well in terms of your ability to recruit people to the cause.
I’m posting this from now on every time NWO starts with his oh woe is me that I’m not allowed to fuck 14 year olds, small children are flauting their bodies at me on the beach, feminists are evil, plus fluoride will kill us all nonsense.
Actually maybe this one works better. Rarr, NWO, the evil scary feminists are coming to get you along with the UN, the giant lizards, and the women from VAWA.
Or in answer to your belief that men have always been at war with feminist Eurasia – Nyan Cat in love.
NWOslave: I…can’t even begin to fathom how you have come across the idea that consent = rape. That’s like saying “full = empty.” They’re practically antonyms. Plus, as it has been repeatedly pointed out to you, it is in the new FBI definition.
You’ve broken your own record for how incredibly stupid and outlandish you can be, and that’s saying something. I can actually feel myself losing intelligence simply by seeing your words on my monitor (which is problematic, since I am studying for my Cognitive Neuroscience final).
Polliwog! Mad props!
Let’s rewrite popular Disney songs to illustrate feminist concepts. It would make a great concept album!
(Not getting into it with either Brandon or Owly…too squicky altogether.)
On the topic of rape and consent, I have a rather personal example. It might be triggering, so beware.
I was fooling around with a friend of mine. This happened quite a few times. I’d told him that I had a few rules: no vaginal penetration, no oral sex on me, and any oral sex on him was to be performed with a condom. I also had told him that I’d had a positive HIV test, and that was part (thought small) of my reasoning.
One night, when we were in bed, he rolled me on to my stomach and penetrated me very suddenly. I froze – absolute panic. I couldn’t speak, and I started blacking out – not the kind where I actually lost consciousness, but the walking-blackout kind, where apparently I was still awake, just not forming any memories of what was going on. I wanted him to stop, but I literally could not speak. I was so overwhelmed with fear and panic. Eventually, I did tell him to stop, because it hurt so much.
I kept sleeping with him. I don’t know why. I couldn’t explain that. One night, after drinking a considerable amount, I asked him for ibuprofen and he gave me codeine. He knew how much I’d had to drink, because the last thing I remember was him commenting on it. We had sex that night, this time with a condom. Condoms I had gone out and bought. Was I planning on having sex with him? No, I wasn’t, but I was worried that something would happen again, and if it did, I wanted condoms present.
Those events were rape. It doesn’t matter that he didn’t force me. He didn’t purposely hurt me. As a matter of fact, I don’t think he even knew what the hell he was doing. But that doesn’t change the truth of it. I wasn’t consenting. I didn’t want it to be happening. I wanted it to stop, but I was so panicked I couldn’t talk. I don’t blame him for not knowing that, but I had told him no penetration, and certainly not without a condom. And he put himself at risk for HIV.
I talked to him about it recently, and he was surprised that I felt the way that I did. He swore up and down I was consenting, but the thing is, he can’t decide that. He didn’t remember the conversations about boundaries (I admit they all happened when we were intoxicated, and he is not a person who remembers when drinking, so I believe him). You will note that he did not go to jail. His life was not ruined. Instead, all he lost was a friend, and possibly a little self-respect.
If I reported him, do you think anyone would take me seriously? I was already sexual with him, and continued to consent to things after the first rape. If I can’t remember, how can I know I didn’t consent? People like this guy. They know how he is – he’s a bit of a player. That’s rape culture, right there. It wouldn’t matter who I was or what I wanted. My behavior would be used against me. I don’t really want to drag him or myself through that, and I don’t think anything good would come of it.
If I thought he were dangerous, I’d want to report him. I don’t, so I’m not going to. But just because he didn’t hit me or hold me down doesn’t mean it wasn’t rape.
I’m sorry, klopbop. That was rape. The blackout, the freezing, the lack of memories — that’s trauma. I’m sorry you experienced so much trauma.
I will say, although I totally agree with your assessment of what would happen if you reported him, I totally disagree that he’s not dangerous. I suspect that you’re not the only person he’s raped, or will rape. That said, it’s remarkably common for rape survivors not to report, and your primary focus has to be on helping yourself get through the trauma. Hugs if you want them.
klopbop, I’m so sorry.
Damn klopbop, I’m so sorry you had to go through such a thing :(
Hugs to klopbop. And yes, that’s definitely rape. Premeditated too, it sounds like.
I second Bee’s comment though – given how clearly manipulative his behavior was I’d be very surprised if you were his only victim.
lj4adotcomdan
“I know that there are many ways in which our system has failed victims of rape. But for it to be classified as a Rape Culture/Rape Society that would seem to be to require it to be purposeful instead of just flawed. ”
No. NO NO NO NO NO! IF THAT’S THE PROBLEM STOP RIGHT THERE. Many malignant social orders occur without any purpose or planning, and this is one of them. There’s a really, REALLY wonderful explanation of this here, as relates to rape (And I love it all the most CAUSE IT USES THE HAYEK! OMG! AND THE BROWNMILLER!)
Malignant Spontaneous Order. It’s all about no-purposeful, systematic flaws. Just… please, please read it, listen to it it’s one of my favoritest things ever. You can get it in zine form, blog post form, or youtube lecture form! I fangirl this so hard.
Will you please give it a chance and see how it can happen without anybody intending it? :)
http://radgeek.com/gt/2008/05/16/women_and/
BLOG POST
http://charleswjohnson.name/essays/women-and-the-invisible-fist/rpa-2010
PAPER, PDF
Just please, pretty please? I mean, I have seen with my own eyes that this argument has actually managed to get actual libertarian dudes who really weren’t bad sorts and honestly did have an open mind to stop worrying and love .. or hate… or accept the idea of Rape Culture.
klopblob. I am so sorry. *hugs*
[trigger warning: sexual assault]
klopblob, that is terrible and I’m sorry.
Earlier in this thread one of our resident MRA douches said that he “doesn’t see” rape culture, therefore it doesn’t exist. Well, part of it is this cultural idea that once a woman has sex with a man, he owns her body and she is unable to say no to him on subsequent occasions. Or, that even if she tells him “I do not want penetration” but fools around with him, that it’s not rape if he ignores her request and penetrates her.
Yes, people get to say how far they are willing to go, and if the partner goes beyond that line, it is rape. Yes, a person gets to withdraw consent once it’s been given. And if the partner ignores that, it is rape. For example, in the first episode of the television series Shameless (both the US and UK versions), the main character is an alcoholic ne’er do well who latches on to a neighbor woman once he finds out that she gets Social Security payments for her agoraphobia. He does this by clumsily “seducing” her, only to find out once they get into the bedroom that her kink is to use a gigantic dildo on her lovers. But he doesn’t find this out until after she’s already tied him up. He clearly doesn’t consent to it, but she rapes him with the dildo anyway. And in the next scene he’s shown in physical pain. There’s a similar storyline with the brother on the show Weeds. It’s not funny; it’s assault.
I use that example to show that feminists do actually apply these rules of consent to *everyone*. Everyone has the right to stop and to say no. Anyone who ignores that request is a rapist.
NWO said@7.27:
Please provide a cite for this either from the FBI or a reputable news source. I haven’t seen it mentioned anywhere that the term ‘consent’ has been dropped from the FBI definition.
Sorry about my last post folks. It’s late and I’m ill.
NWO said@7.27pm:
“@Bee
Fine schpeil there, except the word “consent” is not listed in the FBI definition. Consent now has nothing to do with rape. Removal of the word force means even sex that is consented to can be considered rape on the say-so of a woman. Oddly enough all women really aren;t paragons of virtue.”
Heaven only knows how you came to that conclusion. It’s still quite common for perpetrators to use other methods of coercion than force, dropping the term “force” simply recognizes that and allows rapes using blackmail, drugs, threats and duress to be recognized as rapes. It’s the victim’s freely given and informed consent that is the issue here, not whether the rapist beat the crap out of them in order to subdue them.
“Say 1/10th of 1% of women are screwed up enough, vengeful enough, or just need some sort of excuse to take advantage of this new definition. In a nation of 190 million women that means in a year as many as 190,000 men could possibly be falsely accused, lose their jobs, be ostracized by society, some beat up or killed by white knights, and so on. Every year. I know they’re only men but what the hell? Toss in a little preponderance of evidence and we got us one serious problem.”
The “preponderance of evidence” pertains to one college policy, not to either state or federal law. It’s just a red herring you’ve thrown in there in an attempts to obfuscate the matter. Even if the plaintif was lying s/he would still have to convince a jury and in a he said/she said kind of trial the victim would need to actually be able to provide evidence. Men don’t just get locked up on za woman’s word. Last time I checked the American legal system still propounded the presumption of innocence and due process.
What is this thing about NWOSlave having a thing for children? I’m new here so I’m just trying to catch up. Does he really?
Every time age of consent comes up as a topic of conversation, he starts talking about how much of an injustice it is that men can be punished for having Completely! Consensual! sex with a fourteen year old.
Of course, adults would also be punished for letting a fourteen year old drive or providing them with beer or cigarettes. There are plenty of things that adults have a responsibility under the law to stop fourteen year olds from doing. But I guess refraining from fucking a fourteen year old who dresses all slutty (a term he refuses to define) is different somehow.
(Trigger warning for underage horror)
Seraph: I’ve seen other MRAs openly argue that the age of consent should be lowered to 12 because girls are “sexually mature” and able to “accommodate a penis” then. The lack of empathy is staggering.
Manbooberz-
Just a quick question for y’all…
Do you think some PUA’s like Roosh V are bordering on rape?
Here’s a link to one of his “lay reports”….
http://www.rooshv.com/i-dont-want-you-to-get-raped
This is why I took offense when people suggest I sound like an MRA. That is just disgusting.
@Seraph
Wow. His ideas about feminism are laughable, but that is just disgusting.
I take it I am being lumped in that group. I am absolutely a feminist. That I am not agreement with one label of our culture does not make me unsupportive of all other feminist ideas about rape.
“I’ve seen other MRAs openly argue that the age of consent should be lowered to 12 because girls are “sexually mature” and able to “accommodate a penis” then. The lack of empathy is staggering.”
Oh my god. When I was 12 I was not “sexually mature”, and I would have been horrified if I heard that some grown man was thinking about me like that.
lj4adotcomdan: Well, not everyone who align themselves with men’s rights say stuff like that. Some people who fight for men’s rights are feminists too.
Sadly, the whole underage girl thing is pretty common on MRA blogs, though.
stonerwithaboner: All I get when I click that link is a YouTube video? But I’ve read some of Roosh’s posts before, and yes, some of his “lay reports” border on “rape reports”. I vaguely recall one post where I talk about penetrating someone while they were still asleep (after a one-night stand). He also seems to care nothing about pleasuring his sexual partners and brags about never giving head. Sounds like a real catch.
LJ4: I am absolutely a feminist.
AHAHAHAHAHAH.
*sporfles*
Yeah, you and Sarah Palin, baby.
Question to all: NWO has made it clear that he has – as Kyrie pointed out – an Old Testament view of rape: if the victim (who can be a man, NWO) isn’t beaten badly enough (“enough” to be decided by him) or physically wrestled down and penetrated, and if they don’t fight back enough (see above), then it doesn’t count as rape. Counting anything that doesn’t put the victim in the hospital as rape just opens the door to a flood of false rape accusations. With that in mind, are we continuing to argue with him and provide examples of how, yes, other things count as rape (thanks for your courage, klopbop) for it’s own sake, or to educate the lurkers?
Bee: I am not ignoring the other things. I have said that I will go read them. I cannot promise I will get them read by today or tomorrow though. So some of those points are going to have to wait.
There are people in our society who blame the accuser and/or who think absurd things like a person who was raped might have enjoyed any of it. That is without a doubt. That is also wrong of those people to do. But I am not sure that enough people do that to justify the labeling of our culture as a “rape culture”
What I am seeing, and perhaps with more research I will prove myself wrong (and perhaps not) is that there is a patchwork of horrible things that victims of rape have had to deal with in this country. That patchwork is being used to form a “quilt” to cover the country under the label that a rape culture exists. But when I glanced over the first link given to me, several of the “patches” I saw in that link specifically had nothing to do with rape (even tangentially). Those patches may still be bad (like not protecting people who are not “straight” with equal protection under the law). To me, that makes the “quilt” not one of a “rape culture” but something different.
Does that mean I believe the patches should not be fixed? No. The problems like rape kits not being processed or inadequate training on the part of police officers on how to best handle people who are accusing others of rape should still be fixed.
Mind you, I fully believe that educating the lurkers is a perfectly good reason to keep going. I just don’t understand why some of y’all are trying to explain how consent works to him as if we’re using the same language.
When discussing politics with conservatives (either when I call in to conservative radio shows or when I debate conservatives on the internet) I never expect to change the mind of the person with whom I am speaking. The points being made are almost always meant to educate others who might be listening and/or reading who have not made up their minds yet on the issue at hand so they can see why the person I am arguing with as wrong. If I am arguing with a birther, I never expect them to admit Obama was born a citizen of this country and as such is a natural born citizen qualified to be our President. But I put the arguments out there so others can hear why the birther is wrong. When I debate the health care bill, I never expect a conservative to get why the mandate is really just a tax and that if we eliminate pre-existing condition clauses that mandates are needed to prevent anti-selection. But I put those arguments out there so other people who have not made up their minds on the issue can understand these things.
Anybody who thinks that NWO will change his mind because someone will give him a euphoric moment of clarity is delusional. However, responding to him is still important because such dangerous points should never be left unchallenged. It is also important so that lurkers can see not only why he is wrong but how they can deal with others who make such absurd claims in the future.
ithiliana: Sarah Palin is a moron.
I want to educate you on some of my other blog posts. Actually, much like NWO I think you are also the actual troll here so I doubt you will read them. But for the benefit of others who have some sort of character.
Here are two posts with the specific label of “women” from my main political blog: http://blog.lj4a.com/category/women/ (I am sure there are many others that could have gotten the tag, not sure why I only tagged those two)
Here are some posts I made about abortion rights on my blog: http://blog.lj4a.com/category/national-issues/abortion/
Here are some blog posts I made about Sarah Palin: http://blog.lj4a.com/category/sarah-palin/
Again, I don’t expect ithiliana to read any of that. Trollers gotta troll. But for anyone else who might question my support of feminist ideas, give those blog posts a look.
Blitzgal: I am assuming you are referring to me as the MRA douche since I do not believe that we have a rape culture. Right?
Yes, I currently deny that a rape culture exists because I believe a supermajority of people in this country rejects those things you just said. There is no “cultural idea” that a man owns a woman once they have sex and that they can never say no. SOME people believe that, but it is not a cultural idea. There is no “cultural idea” that a woman cannot fool around without consenting to penetration. SOME people believe that. It is not a cultural idea. Most people within our culture would call anyone who thinks those things are ok a bunch of assholes.
Where in our “culture”, besides maybe idiot MRA websites, do people believe that you cannot withdraw consent at any time?
And I reject the idea that because something happens on TV that it is part of our “culture”. I was watching Tru Blood the other day. Sookie almost got raped. That is not proof we live in a rape culture because it took a fictional vampire to step in and stop her.
zhinxy: I have emailed myself the link to make sure I can read it later.
Roosh? Yes. That’s bordering on predatory at the minimum. Ick. His description of the sex with the drunk girl was…yeah it wasn’t good sex not for either of them, but I guess he was happy since he boned her.
Wow, that Roosh site is filled with rapists/potential rapists.
“Never ask a woman for advice on anything besides maybe fashion, and never let a woman influence you with her flawed and shockingly incomplete body of knowledge. Seek out a woman for her beauty, femininity, sexuality, and pleasing, low-maintenance personality, but not for her intelligence. The more of it she thinks she has, the more pompous bullshit you’ll have to put up with.”
From here: http://www.rooshv.com/never-listen-to-a-woman
Where in our “culture”, besides maybe idiot MRA websites, do people believe that you cannot withdraw consent at any time?
Virtually everywhere.
I’ve worked with a support group for rape and sexual assault survivors, and am one myself, and all of them tell the same kind of stories of what happened when they tried to tell people what happened to them. Nearly every person who was assaulted by someone she was romantically involved with was told, usually more than once, “Of course you consented, he’s your husband!” (or boyfriend, or girlfriend, etc.) They have stories about being told that their attackers “must have just misunderstood.” They have stories of being told that it’s just “unreasonable” to expect a man to stop what he’s doing if he’s turned on, and “unfair” to ask it of him in the first place. They have stories of being told – by people they love, people they trusted – that they simply cannot be telling the truth, based on nothing at all but the speaker’s discomfort at the idea of knowing a rapist. They have stories of being laughed at, of being treated horribly by law enforcement, and of better cops telling them, “I sympathize, but realistically, you don’t want to put yourself through this – it’ll be hellish, and the rapist is never going to get convicted, anyway.” They have stories of losing friends, losing family, losing jobs because they dared to admit to having been victimized. They have truly horrible stories of being raped repeatedly by family members and having the rest of their family be entirely aware and unwilling to intervene, because it was easier just to pretend nothing was happening. They all have a story like this – except for a few whose story is “I never told anyone at all till now, because I was too afraid.”
You don’t see it. Fine. But reality is not confined solely to things that you, personally, see. Talk to a rape survivor. Ask her (or him) if she has felt like society has supported her. Ask her if she feels like the prevailing culture is one in which she was confident her rapist would be held accountable for his crime, and that she would not be blamed for his actions. Ask her if she feels like she can state openly that she is a rape survivor to everyone she meets, or if she has been made to feel that this is something she should be ashamed of. Ask her if she has ever been so worn down by the common cultural perception of rape that she starts to wonder if maybe she really WAS asking for it, if she really DID deserve it for wearing that skirt or dating that guy or drinking that beer or just being somehow, undefinably bad. Ask me. Ask any of the others here who’ve discussed being assaulted. And consider that maybe, just maybe, our reality is just as real as yours, and somewhat more relevant to the discussion at hand.
I’ve never been to China. If I went only by things I’ve personally seen, I could argue that China doesn’t exist – but instead, I trust that the millions of Chinese people out there probably have some idea what they’re talking about when they say that China’s existence is eminently real and obvious to them.
And that’s the problem. Sex isn’t about mutual pleasure, or even really his own. It’s about winning, putting marks on a scoreboard. Which is a real problem, seeing as how “winning” is defined as “getting past the woman’s resistance”.
@lj4adotcomdan
“Where in our “culture”, besides maybe idiot MRA websites, do people believe that you cannot withdraw consent at any time? ”
some examples:
the discourse surrounding the Julian Assange trial:
http://video.feministing.com/2010/12/20/jaclyn-friedman-and-naomi-wolf-debate-assange/
or this:
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2006/10/narrow-window-when-no-means-no.html
The most depressing part is this:
That speaks not so much volumes as encyclopedias.
@lj4adotcomdan
Here’s another personal example I’m going to give you about how our culture believes that consent cannot be withdrawn during sex.
When I had sex ed classes in junior high/high school, I remember learning many times that the “withdrawal” method for preventing pregnancy was not effective. What was the reasoning behind this? “because sex feels so good, you cannot reasonably expect a man to actually ‘stop’ in the middle of it.”
So basically, once a woman engages in sex, she cannot reasonably expect a man to stop. Her body is his until he ejaculates.
THAT is rape culture.
It’s less that rape culture is comprised of a bunch of things that rape victims have to deal with, and more that it’s comprised of a bunch of things saying that rape is okay (or at least totally understandable) in certain circumstances, and that a “perfect victim” looks like this (white, sober, attractive, female) and a “perfect rapist” looks like this (stranger, weapon, monstrous) and anything less than that isn’t “real rape.”
This isn’t true, though. This may be what you think is true, but if you do any research on what juries think, you’d see differently. Juries are random people pulled from society, and I’d say they represent well what society at large thinks. It’s very difficult to change jury members’ minds and make them see that just because someone has a girlfriend and a job, or the victim wasn’t bruised and was drunk, that a rape still could have happened. There is a reason that all these ideas are called rape myths. Myths are widely held and factually incorrect. You may be totally educated, well-read, and aware of the realities of rape, but most people are not.
I’m not linking to anything, since you don’t have time to read it, but please, if you want links on juror misconceptions, I’ve got plenty.
So maybe that’s one example, because it feeds into this idea that rape is something that happens between a bad guy/stranger and an innocent sober attractive woman. He just couldn’t help himself! Same with Tara and the British vampire who kidnapped her and raped her (although she had had sex with him willingly, previously). Of course, Jason was raped repeatedly by the werepanther women, and surprisingly called it “rape” and didn’t try to play it off as something that was awesome because what normal red-blooded male wouldn’t want to have sex with a bunch of women. And Sam’s girlfriend was raped by his brother, who shifted into him, which they didn’t deal with as rape at all.
And of course there are literally thousands of TV shows and movies that show Rape in one context (a stranger with a knife! bad!) and rape in a completely different context (she says no repeatedly and tells him to leave, he kisses her despite her trying to fight him off, finally she is seduced, and sex happens). Those small-r rapes are generally described in reviews as “love scenes.” And yet there’s no rape culture? Seeing this thousands of times doesn’t normalize it? There’s kind of a gross quote from Judd Apatow re. “Observe and Report,” where he’s describing writing the rape scene between Seth Rogen and a very intoxicated woman, and Apatow says, “I wanted to show the one thing that could happen that would make this OK,” and he comes up with the woman briefly regaining consciousness and saying “Don’t stop,” so Rogen cheerfully continues to rape her unconscious body. But that makes it OK. In Apatow’s mind, and in many, many others.
Please know that we’re talking about a culture, about a shared viewpoint, about common experiences. So if your argument is always going to be, “But those are just a bunch of examples of things, and not” — oh, I don’t know what you’re thinking would be really great evidence of a cultural theme — “and not a contractual agreement signed by everyone in the world” or “and not a class that we all take in junior high” or whatever, then I guess you’re not going to understand culture. But understand that even though the commenters here are pointing to 5, or 10, or 20 examples of things that contribute to or illustrate rape culture, the components of rape culture are virtually infinite. We just don’t have time to type out millions of examples for you.
@Bee: We just don’t have time to type out millions of examples for you.
And because, based on what he’s said here, he would reject all millions as individual quirks believed by some people not him and nobody he knows and still he would BELIEVE BELIEVE BELIEVE that no rape culture exists.
Because he’s so deep into denial and apologies about rape culture that it’s beginning to verge on creepy, plus he’s even worse than the majority of my first year students for seeing how different attitudes about sexualities, genders, and behaviors can connect, so denying that X is rape culture because it’s not literally about rape.
I’m just reading that Roosh site, and there’s tons of examples on there.
More examples for you, lj4adotcomdan:
“I met a Brazilian girl at a dinner party. We kissed quickly (no surprise), and then I made her a strong drink which sent her to the edge of unconsciousness. I escorted her home, weaseled my way into her room, and tried to get things going on the bed. Unfortunately she was too drunk, so it felt like I was trying to reanimate a corpse, but I didn’t care because I wanted to get laid. An American feminist would’ve considered my actions attempted rape, and I admit it was creepy as hell.”
From here: http://www.rooshv.com/theres-no-punishment-in-going-for-sex
Also, this just sprang to mind right now. An article titled “10 Ways to Fool a Sorority Girl into Bed” that was recently taken down because Jaclyn Friedman (author of “Yes Means Yes”) came across it and tweeted about it, and so a lot of feminists heard about it and clearly there was a lot of outrage. The article was actually from Oct 26, so it really says a lot about our culture that it didn’t get taken down until feminists actually found out about it and were outraged. But basically, the article gave advice on how frat boys can date rape a girl: feed her drink after drink at a party, until she’s too drunk to stand, and then lead her to your bedroom so that she can “lay down”. Then, rape her.
Even though the article has been taken down (I know there are screenshots somewhere, but can’t seem to find them), you can read the comments here. A lot of people don’t seem to think that feeding drinks to a girl until she’s too drunk to know what’s going on, and then leading her into your bedroom to have “sex” with her, is rape.
http://www.campusbasement.com/mizzou/maincampus/articles/3729/10-ways-to-fool-a-sorority-girl-into-bed
In that scenario, most people would blame the girl for drinking too much, rather than putting the blame where it actually belongs: the rapist.
Rape culture is excusing rapists’ behaviour, shrugging it off and saying “boys will be boys”
Holy shit.
“Rape Game: Used for when a girl is acting either difficult or prudish. Drag her to your place and tell her you’re going to have her way with her and there’s nothing she can do about it. Throw her on the bad, rip off her clothing, and do what you promised while ignoring her fake protests. With some girls you need to simulate rape conditions to get the bang, but be careful because rape game correlates highly to unprotected sex. The last thing a girl cares about when getting fantasy raped is using a condom. Also, you might want to use a fake name and safe house when running rape game in a Western country.”
– http://www.rooshv.com/16-different-types-of-game
HAHAHAHA, Ithiliana, welcome to the Regular Who Some Idiot Thinks is a Troll Because You Think They’re Full of Shit Club! We have cookies!
lj4adotcomdan, now I really think you’re dumb–almost as dumb as He Who Shall Not Be Named–he doesn’t believe in culture either.
Oh dear god, that Roosh guy is an awful, awful human being.
Stephanie: That reminds me of David Lisak’s interviews with undetected rapists — men on college campuses who had said, basically, that they had forced women to have sex with them, that they had had sex with women who were passed out or didn’t consent, without admitting to “rape.”
One of them talked about how he and his frat would invite freshman girls to their parties, make a really strong, sweet punch, encourage them to drink, and then take them to what was basically a “rape room” and have sex with them after they passed out or were too drunk to fight them off. It was totally premeditated! And encouraged! The guy recounting the tale was actually bragging about how he would plan this rape for a week, and how he’d pull it off.
@Bee
That’s sick. And lj4adotcomdan still doesn’t believe that there’s a rape culture.
RooshV has always been rapey, this is no surprise. It is in his name ffs (say it out loud a few times…it sounds like “roofie”).
Bee: I had to skip over much of your Tru Blood related post because I think you have some spoilers in there. (I am only halfway through season 2).
I guess the problem I am having, and some people just think I am an awful terrible person because I am daring to question people about it, is that many people here are saying that a majority of our culture agrees with those things and I do not see a majority of our culture agreeing with those things.
I am open to seeing it. I really am (even though some people want to insist that I do not mean the words that I actually say). That is why I ask questions. That is why I want to find out more. It is unfortunate that some people here just assume I am some vile woman hating anti-feminist MRA because I question one concept. But they call me the troll.
Stephanie: That IS sick. I have another sick story. I was going through freshman rush. I had chosen the fraternity I wanted to be a part of. This fraternity was basically a group of guys who were all friends who lived in a house. They consistently had the highest GPA on campus and they didn’t judge people for not drinking and not “scoring” as many “chicks” as possible. However, my school required me to to go at least 5 frats to make sure I made the “right” choice. I went to one for lunch and the guy pulls out a keychain with a whistle on it. The conversation between the two brothers went as follows.
Brother A: Hey man, why do you have a whistle on your key chain.
Brother B: I don’t know. I figured I would use it for our volleyball game on Friday. It is really loud. It is kinda like a rape whistle.
Brother A: What’s that. Do you blow it while you are raping a girl so you can’t hear her scream?
I asked them to just sign my card, I got out of there, and I never went near that house again.
I have told A LOT of people that story. Not one found it to be a funny joke and all were repulsed by it.
If our culture accepted such things, I would think that I would have at least gotten back some responses of people who found it funny or who saw no problem with what was said.
Now, if one was to say that our country has a rape subculture, I would probably agree. There is a sick and twisted subset of our culture who do not believe that all forms of legal rape are actually rape. They do believe things like what was said in groups like you cannot be raped by your husband or you cannot revoke consent. But to say that these people represent the culture as a whole, I am not there yet.