Rapists, lad mags, and the Men’s Rights subreddit
Lad mags: Always covering the most important stories
What’s the difference between a lad mag and a rapist? Aside from one being a magazine and the other a person, albeit an reprehensible one, apparently not very much.
In a study soon to be published in the British Journal of Psychology, researchers at Middlesex University and the University of Surrey showed people quotes about women from British lad mags (FHM, Loaded, Nuts and Zoo) and from convicted rapists. Most survey respondents – men and women both – could not tell the difference between the quotes from the magazines and the quotes from the rapists. And most of the male respondents identified more with the quotes from the rapists than from the lad mags.
Here are some of the quotes the survey respondents were asked to react to. (You can find more at Jezebel.) Can you tell which of these are from rapists or lad mags?
Mascara running down the cheeks means they’ve just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.
You’ll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they’ll do it willingly.
Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?
I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.
In case you’re wondering, the correct answers are: Lad mag, Rapist, Rapist, Lad Mag.
Creepy, eh?
Lead researcher Miranda Horvath of Middlesex University explains why she feels this is so troubling:
Rapists try to justify their actions, suggesting that women lead men on, or want sex even when they say no, and there is clearly something wrong when people feel the sort of language used in a lads’ mag could have come from a convicted rapist.
I would say so.
And so, you might wonder, how did the regulars on the Men’s Rights subreddit react this this research? Take a look.
The comment with the most upvotes offered some nice juicy denial:
The comment with the second-highest number of upvotes completely missed the point:
And then there was this hot mess:
In case anyone is wondering, that quote from French is actually a quote from a character in one of her novels. And it’s pretty easy to distinguish it from things posted on Jezebel, because none of the writers on Jezebel ever say anything even remotely like that.
The Men’s Rights subreddit, responding to evidence of rape culture by going “la la la I can’t hear you” since March 2008.
Posted on December 11, 2011, in antifeminism, creepy, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, rape, rapey, reddit, that's not funny!. Bookmark the permalink. 758 Comments.
Well, perhaps they are sexist. Someone can be sexist and find rape abhorrent.
Rapists will use anything to justify their rapes. Sexism, religion, etc. My point is that a person agreeing with a quote that a rapist made (even if the rapist used the quote to justify a rape) doesn’t make that agreement a condoning of rape (especially if the person doesn’t know it was made by a rapist).
“What do you disagree with, the comparison with racist jokes or the idea that racist jokes are harmful in a racist context? Do you think treating rape as a light subject is harmless?”
I wasn’t commenting on the racism jokes. I was saying that a rape joke doesn’t have to be classified as something A) to mock rapists or B) to trivialize rape.
“I just checked the website linked to your name, “falsely accused”. I can’t say I’m not surprised given the sentence above. Not that it necessarily oppose what you said, though.”
I am really not sure what you are saying here. Could you clarify it? Are you suggesting that because I have a website that deals with the topic of false accusations of rape (and potentially other crimes as well) that it is surprising that I would deny that we live in a “false rape society”?
If so, my response would be that while I was once falsely accused of sexual assault that I do not believe that we live in a society that believes false accusations of sexual assault are ok.
I also have problems with the idea that we live in a “rape culture” (of for that matter a “false rape culture” as MRA like to claim). Most people in our society believe that rape is wrong and they blame the women (who are the majority of victims) for not dressing right, drinking right, acting right, etc. Holyfuckingdickbiscuit, an 11 year old girl gangraped in her neighborhood was blamed for wearing makeup.
We live in a rape culture–but a whole lot of people are in denial about it as long as they can blame and shame the victims.
And pretty much ignore it on the level of the justice system, like this report on the number of rape kits that go untested attests:
http://jezebel.com/5610550/the-shocking-numbers-on-untested-rape-kits
Most people in our society believe that rape is wrong and believe that falsely accusing someone of rape is wrong. To me, both claims are absurd:
Oh, you’re one of those trolls–the ones who come in and equate rape and false rape accusations.
Fuckit, no need to even pretend–all the trolls who come in with the “it’s equally BAAAAAAAAAAAD” always end up flashing their true MRA trolly colors very quickly.
*yawns*
Meller seeks to excuse the perpetrator of violence and shift the blame squarely to the feminists for provoking it: I immediately dubbed it as rape apologetics and told Dunning-Kruger Man to fuck off, but apologising for an aggressor beating or killing a woman, while painting him as being as white as snow, is just as bad. (Gendering here matches Meller’s comment.)
Stephanie: “You’re missing the point. ”
If we really did live in a “rape culture”, I would love for someone to be able to shine the light on me and reveal it.
“Straight sexuality, as the “norm” (aka most socially valuable form of sexuality–so no, being the “norm” does not mean its just more prevalent) ”
Why does being “the norm” have to mean socially valuable and not just more prevalent? In fact, I would argue that claiming something is the norm assigns value to it is going beyond the definition of what the term “the norm” means.
“There are power relations WITHIN heterosexual relations, and these are what legitimize and reinforce rape culture. ”
Perhaps that is somewhere in that page I promised to read later. But it has nothing to do with the part I quoted from the page. The section I was quoting had to do with those who denigrate anything that is not heterosexual and using such denigrations as proof that a rape culture exists when it does no such thing.
But I will comment on those other power relations that you brought up, since you brought them up.
“In other words, there is a certain power dynamic between males and females–this is a heteronormative power dynamic.”
Heteronormative means that people are viewed as most likely to be heterosexual. It doesn’t say anything about the power dynamic that comes with it. There very well could be a heteronormative culture where women have all the power and men have none. So the power structures you speak of have nothing to do with the fact that the culture is heteronormative.
“Within our heteronormative society, males are supposed to pursue women, and women are supposed to be pursued. This is an inherently unequal power dynamic.”
I agree that such a power structure is unequal. It is undoubtedly sexist. I think it is less prevalent than it used to be as it is more accepted for a woman to pursue what she wants. I do not have data that says if it is ok for women to be the pursuer now or not. So I cannot say that most people accept or reject this power dynamic.
“When men are constructed as the pursuers/initiators, women are given no agency. They are constructed to be pursued, to be preyed on, to be groped on the subway, to be raped.”
Even if I were to accept that most people today still believe the role of the man is to pursue and the role of the woman is to be pursued, it takes a rather large leap to go from “they are to be pursued” to “they are to be raped”. Just because a person believes than men should make the first move, it doesn’t mean that the person believes men have the right to rape and grope. I would argue that even if most people agreed with the power dynamic that places men as the pursuers that it doesn’t mean that most people agree that it means women are to be preyed on, groped or raped.
Ithilana: “Most people in our society believe that rape is wrong and believe that falsely accusing someone of rape is wrong. To me, both claims are absurd:
Oh, you’re one of those trolls–the ones who come in and equate rape and false rape accusations.
Fuckit, no need to even pretend–all the trolls who come in with the “it’s equally BAAAAAAAAAAAD” always end up flashing their true MRA trolly colors very quickly.
*yawns*”
No. I do not equate rape and false rape accusations.
But you are one of the trolls who believes that just because someone mentions the two in a sentence that the person is automatically viewing them as equal. I am sick and tired of your type.
And again, the quote was taken out of context. The claims I find absurd are the claims that we live in a rape society or that we live in a false rape society.
Yeah, but since one is true and one is false, I don’t give a fuck about your false equivalencies.
My mistake.
is many not enough? those attitudes should be on the fringe of society, instead they’re still very common. When a cop thinks its legitimate advice to tell women not to dress like sluts in order to avoid being raped, I think we have a problem. Read the rest of the article, it gives more examples of how the “asking for it” notion still puts victims through hell.
Fine. Robbery, assault, etc. It doesn’t really matter. If the crime isn’t rape, then victim blaming simply doesn’t exist. No one tells a robbery victim that if they don’t want to be robbed they shouldn’t buy a nice house or own expensive things. Even if they forget to lock the door the police are still going to treat the break in seriously and still place the blame on the thieves who willingly made a choice to break in (like a rapist who willingly makes the choice to rape.) Also no one asks an assault victim if what they were wearing potentially gave the person who assaulted them the wrong idea, thus asking to be assaulted.
It’s true, short skirts, drinking and being with different men shouldn’t be taken as removing credibility, but it still does. And even if the courts actually follow rape shield laws, that doesn’t stop the media from having a field day at the victim’s expense.
institutionalized sexism contributes to rape culture very much. Its the age old idea that women’s sexuality is dirty and punishable, that the mere sight of a woman incites uncontrollable lust in men (short skirt? she should have known better!) These ideas, though becoming more rare, still influence how people think about rape.
Either way, if you can recognize that those proofs are problematic and need changing, then it doesn’t really matter what name you call it by in my opinion.
Well that’s great that you know decent people, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I think there is some legitimate proof that rape culture exists, or institutionalized sexism as you prefer to call it. I see those proofs on forums/internet comments, in the news, in jokes, in popular culture and in PUA “teachings”. You should take a look at the way our trolls and other MRAs treat the subject of rape and so called “slutty women” sometime too. Even this study should tell you something is really wrong.
As for the drunk hook-ups, I believe sleeping with someone who is way to drunk to consent is now considered rape regardless of who does it. It should be regarded common sense not to hook up with a drunk person, but like I mentioned before, that behavior is normalized.
And regarding the heterosexual norm example, see Stephanie’s comment.
Ithiliana: How on earth can you respond to a post in its entirety and then in the very next post take part of that post out of context? Wow.
“We live in a rape culture–but a whole lot of people are in denial about it as long as they can blame and shame the victims.”
I deny it because I do not see it and much of the proof given is either flawed or has nothing to do with rape at all, even tangentially. It has nothing to do with victim blaming or victim shaming. People who are victims should not be blamed or shamed.
“And pretty much ignore it on the level of the justice system, like this report on the number of rape kits that go untested attests:”
If a rape kit is taken, and investigation should be made. That some go untested is a failure of the system. Perhaps more funding needs to be provided so that they can be tested. Perhaps more training needs to be given to law enforcement on how to better investigate accusations of rape. But the failures on the part of the justice system doesn’t mean we live in a “rape culture”.
ithiliana: “Yeah, but since one is true and one is false, I don’t give a fuck about your false equivalencies.”
Since I did not attempt to equate them, there was no false equivalency. Had I said “rape is equal to false accusations of rape” then you would be 100% spot on correct without a doubt that I made a false equivalency. But I did not say that. You just assumed. You were wrong.
I’m finding it seriously disturbing that we have someone here who’s read those quotes from the convicted rapist and is insisting that agreeing with them doesn’t mean anything rapey. Ugh. Rape culture – it really does seep into every nook and cranny of society.
About your blog: as you told yourself, MRAs believe in a false-accusation culture. Your blog (that I have not read in detail) and its subject are the kind that would be expected from a MRA. But again, the causality is not necessarily true and it’s a blog subject as valid as any other and all depend of the way the subject is treated.
Here is a fine example of what a rape culture is: when a young girl gets rape by 20 men, we need to know how slutty her clothes were.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/09/us/09assault.html
Jordan: Holy fuck! 0_o
“When Brahs Can’t Cope” wins comment of the day.
CassandraSays, lj4adotcomdan blog is paranoid about false rape accusation. I don’t understand why there are guys that are paranoid about false rape accusation because with DNA testing, it’s not difficult to counter them,
@lj4adotcomdan
I’m not going to bother responding to all of that, but I will say that your problem is that you don’t understand how heterosexuality IS the most valuable form of sexuality, and holds the most power. Heteronormative does not just mean that heterosexuality is most prevalent. It means there’s a whole power structure that favours heterosexuality and heterosexual relationships over all others.
But this isn’t an Intro to Sexuality Studies course, so I don’t feel like sitting here explaining this to you. I’ll redirect you further.
I would recommend you read “Queering Relationships: Toward a Paradigmatic Shift” by John P. Elia
Quackers: “My mistake.”
Well, I tried to preemptively prevent people from taking it out of context. Unfortunately that failed.
“is many not enough?”
What percentage is many? A million people is “many”. But a million people is a fraction of a percent of the people in this country.
“those attitudes should be on the fringe of society, instead they’re still very common. When a cop thinks its legitimate advice to tell women not to dress like sluts in order to avoid being raped, I think we have a problem. ”
Well, I have a problem with how some in law enforcement treat victims of rape. I know of someone who made a report about being slipped some drugs and then raped. The officer actually asked if she enjoyed it. That is pathetic.
On the other hand, police officers will often tell people to avoid certain areas of town if they want to avoid being mugged. Does that mean they are blaming the victim of the mugging for being mugged? Or does that mean they are just giving advice on how to best avoid being a victim of a crime.
Of course, many (I believe most) rape victims know their rapists so to focus on the manner of dress doesn’t seem to be an effective way to prevent rape.
“No one tells a robbery victim that if they don’t want to be robbed they shouldn’t buy a nice house or own expensive things. ”
People are told all the time how to prevent themselves from being robbed. From locking your doors, installing an alarm system, keeping on porch lights, etc. That doesn’t mean they are blaming robbery victims who don’t do those things.
” Also no one asks an assault victim if what they were wearing potentially gave the person who assaulted them the wrong idea, thus asking to be assaulted. ”
That is true. And focusing on what was being worn is something that should not be done. However, the police are going to ask the accuser questions to determine the issues surrounding consent and if it was given or not.
“that doesn’t stop the media from having a field day at the victim’s expense. ”
The media also has a field day at the expense of the accused as well.
“Well that’s great that you know decent people, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. ”
I am sure it exists, but not to the level that some claim it does.
“I think there is some legitimate proof that rape culture exists, or institutionalized sexism as you prefer to call it. I see those proofs on forums/internet comments, in the news, in jokes, in popular culture and in PUA “teachings”. You should take a look at the way our trolls and other MRAs treat the subject of rape and so called “slutty women” sometime too. Even this study should tell you something is really wrong.”
I see the way that MRA treat the subject of rape and “slutty women” (even though the slutty men are not criticized). I find that MRA are often not helping their own claimed cause when they behave in such a way. There are several items that MRA discuss that I think are worthy of note. Perhaps others would as well if their manner in approaching those items were not so abhorrent and overtly sexist.
As to the labels. I think that those who believe there is a rape culture, or that we live in a rape society, would also believe that there is institutionalized sexism. I do not think they are interchangeable.
“As for the drunk hook-ups, I believe sleeping with someone who is way to drunk to consent is now considered rape regardless of who does it. It should be regarded common sense not to hook up with a drunk person, but like I mentioned before, that behavior is normalized.”
What if both are too drunk to consent and no evidence exists showing that one tried to get the other one drunk for the purpose of having sex.
Cassandra: “I’m finding it seriously disturbing that we have someone here who’s read those quotes from the convicted rapist and is insisting that agreeing with them doesn’t mean anything rapey. ”
If you are speaking about me, I found that several of the comments were “rapey”. One wasn’t rapey but was “abusey”. The others were neither.
@ no more mr nice guy – Yep, it’s because I took a quick look at his blog that I’m not even bothering to seriously engage. Not worth my time and effort.
@lj4adotcomdan
Also,
“If we really did live in a “rape culture”, I would love for someone to be able to shine the light on me and reveal it.”
If you are truly interested in understanding rape culture, I’ll redirect you to a couple of sources:
Yes Means Yes: Visions Of Female Sexual Power and a World Without Rape by Jaclyn Friedman and Jessica Valenti
Also, the authors of that book have a blog, which has some really good articles (you should read the book first though). But here are some excellent articles:
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/09/false-rape-allegations-are-rare/http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/this-is-what-rape-culture-looks-like/
Also, “Transforming a Rape Culture” is supposedly a really good book about rape culture. I’ve actually never read that one myself, but I’ve heard it has some excellent information.
You must not have a very good understand as to how the (US)criminal justice system works. A jury could STILL convict a defendant who’s been falsely accused EVEN in the absence of forensic evidence! But most of all, criminal defendants are supposed to be considered innocent until proven guilty. That means if a woman accuses a man of rape, then as the plaintiff it is SHE who must prove that he’s guilty and not him who must prove his innocence!
Kyrie: “About your blog: as you told yourself, MRAs believe in a false-accusation culture. Your blog (that I have not read in detail) and its subject are the kind that would be expected from a MRA.”
I know. Which is why I am very careful on my blog to not only present my information in a way that an MRA would not do it, but I also am critical of how the MRA do present their information.
Monsieur sans Nom, in your country and mine, rape is not handled by a civil suit.
“Which is why I am very careful on my blog to not only present my information in a way that an MRA would not do it”
If that was your intent, you have failed.
But the failures on the part of the justice system doesn’t mean we live in a “rape culture”.
Sure it does: it’s a systemic element of oppression where ‘rape’ as a crime is not taken as seriously as other crimes. It’s part of institutionalized, systematic oppression and marginalization of women’s issues. You need to go to feminism 101.
http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ie=UTF-8&ion=1&nord=1#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&nord=1&site=webhp&source=hp&q=rape%20culture%20site%3A.edu&pbx=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&fp=38f9734dbf923bbb&ion=1&ion=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=38f9734dbf923bbb&ion=1&biw=1280&bih=939
Do do some homework and then maybe you might have something worth contributing to a discussion beyond rape apologist denial that a rape culture exists because you don’t see it.
nomoremrniceguy: “CassandraSays, lj4adotcomdan blog is paranoid about false rape accusation. I don’t understand why there are guys that are paranoid about false rape accusation because with DNA testing, it’s not difficult to counter them,
I doubt you even read it.
I am not paranoid about false rape accusations. I was a victim of one.
In the case of the false accusation made against me, there was no DNA evidence to collect. As such, DNA testing would not have meant squat. Of course, if DNA evidence is collected, does that prove rape on a DNA match? Of course not. It just proves ejaculation.
However, what was important was that the police officer questioned the accuser and found a hole in her story so large that it was obviously false. (I go into what was wrong in the “short short version” on the first post).
Unfortunately for me, even though it never went to trial, it is something that has impacted me since then. I have had nightmares any time national cases made the news about false accusations (Hofstra, Duke). I have held it in so long, only very few people actually new about it.
But my blog is part of my healing. My feeling free to openly discuss it has helped me start the healing process that was long overdue.
Do you deny the real pain and the real harm that can take place if someone lies about it?
Since I did not attempt to equate them, there was no false equivalency. Had I said “rape is equal to false accusations of rape” then you would be 100% spot on correct without a doubt that I made a false equivalency. But I did not say that. You just assumed. You were wrong..
You didn’t say those exact words, but you make them equivalent in your clauses, i.e. they are both wrong. Or something like that. And a lot of Trollz do equate the two, so if you aren’t one of them, you’re perilously close on the language use.
And to completely dismiss the idea of a rape culture is TROLLING from the git-go.
Cassandra: “If that was your intent, you have failed.”
http://falselyaccused.lj4a.com/2011/02/10/can-you-tell-me-what-is-wrong-with-this-video/
In that post i am critical of MRA who are getting all uptight about a video suggesting that parents can teach their children that raping women is wrong.
http://falselyaccused.lj4a.com/2011/02/09/what-is-a-false-accusation-of-sexual-violence/
In that post, I am critical of MRA who claim that a woman recanting her rape accusation should be considered to have made a false accusation. Recantations are made for many reasons, not just because she lied.
In some posts, I do find myself in agreement with the MRA (for example the Title IX stuff). However, there are other posts where I clearly state my opposition to those who are MRA and the sexist and hateful manner in which they present their arguments.
Except that when victims of mugging or robbery fail or forget to take this advice, they still are not blamed for being victims of those crimes, nor is it used against them in court. Furthermore, the “advice” of not dressing like a slut is not even good advice, because clothing has nothing to do with whether you are raped or not.
that you can give an example like this yet still deny rape culture is really something. There is no point in even debating this with you any further.
Ithiliana: “You didn’t say those exact words, but you make them equivalent in your clauses, i.e. they are both wrong. Or something like that. ”
Sure, they are both wrong. That doesn’t mean they are EQUALLY wrong. It is absurd to suggest that because I do not specifically state they are unequal that you would assume that I believe they are.
“And a lot of Trollz do equate the two”
Good for them (or should I say, bad for them). I do not.
“so if you aren’t one of them, you’re perilously close on the language use.”
False.
“And to completely dismiss the idea of a rape culture is TROLLING from the git-go.”
That one dismisses an idea you find true is not trolling. It was bad enough when you put words in my mouth that I did not say. Now you are just making up meanings of words.
quackers: “that you can give an example like this yet still deny rape culture is really something. There is no point in even debating this with you any further.”
A vast majority of officers I have spoken to about this issue have said the officer handled it wrong. If most officers believe it was handled wrong then I have a hard time accepting it as evidence of a rape CULTURE since most would not have handled it that way. If it was part of the culture, most would handle it that way.
It’s good that you disagree with MRAs sometimes, but as a whole your blog does come across as being very MRA-like. FYI, my last job title was “Editor”, so that’s a professional opinion. If your intent is simply to get your feelings out as part of the healing process, then it doesn’t really matter how you come across, but if it’s to convince others of your perspective then you are currently failing to do so.
That would also apply to your comments here, by the way.
Cassandra: I am familiar with Yes means Yes. In fact, there are many comments by me on the false accusation link you provided. I was in an argument with an actual troll over there who thought my bringing up my false accusation in a discussion of false accusations made me a rape apologist (or something like that)
I agree with many of the things said on yes means yes. I am all for the concept of enthusiastic consent because then you leave no doubt as to what your desires are and your partner can have no doubt as well.
I promise I will do some more research into the arguments made in support of the idea that we live in a rape culture. I will look into several of the links provided here as jumping off points. But I am just saying that from what I have seen so far, many of the examples have nothing to do with rape. So how can they be proof that we are in a rape culture?
Cassandra: “It’s good that you disagree with MRAs sometimes, but as a whole your blog does come across as being very MRA-like.”
Examples? To me, MRA are not just people who talk about false rape accusations and perceived reverse sexism in our country. In order to be an MRA you have to do so in a very hateful way, especially towards women.
And if there is ANYTHING on my blog that is doing that, please tell me as that was not my intent at all.
I deny it because I do not see it
I know of someone who made a report about being slipped some drugs and then raped. The officer actually asked if she enjoyed it.
How do you go straight from “I don’t see any examples of rape culture” to “here’s an obvious example of rape culture I saw”?
And if you don’t believe being questioned on whether you enjoyed being raped is an example of rape culture, answer me this: have you ever heard of a victim being asked, “Did you enjoy being mugged?” or “Did you enjoy being shot?” or “Did you enjoy having your belongings stolen?” I’m going to guess the answer is “no.” And one more, even more important question: that cop who asked that utterly insane question – was he immediately fired? Did his supervisors and colleagues denounce his behavior? Because if not – if, in fact, he was rightly confident that such behavior would be widely condoned, and he continues to work as a cop – how in the hell is that NOT evidence of a larger rape culture?
(Also, you really ought to go back and read the post you were linked to. You’ve obviously had time to do so, since you’ve had time to keep arguing here.)
lj4adotcomedan – What would convince you that we lived in a rape culture? What do you think feminists mean when they say rape culture? If they don’t mean what you think they must mean, aren’t you just holding them to an impossible standard? If deeply entrenched societal attitudes about rape than tend to excuse rapists, be they male or female, and blame victims aren’t “rape culture” – What is? What would be. Think about this. Because it’s not just “not agreeing” that’s trollish. That’s not the point. it’s dismissing and saying “I haven’t seen it!” – When you won’t even listen to feminists about what “it” is.
“A vast majority of officers I have spoken to about this issue have said the officer handled it wrong”
As if they’d tell you upfront their true feelings on the situation…
The sort of thing that happened to your friend is unfortunately not an isolated incident but part of a trend. That such attitudes can be found at all among the group of people in our society entrusted with preserving public order and stopping crime should illustrate how deeply ingrained rape-promoting attitudes are.
I don’t have time to go edit your blog for you, and if I did I would have to charge you for that service, as I do not perform editing work for free for strangers on the internet. That is especially the case when the strangers in question clearly support some of the ideas that underly rape culture, which you do, as your comments here illustrate. Frankly I don’t think you understand what’s meant by “rape culture”, but it’s very clear that you agree with some of the attitudes that keep in afloat. I am thus not feeling inclined to do you any favors.
zhinxy: In short, I believe (and please correct me if I am wrong) is that rape culture means we live in a society that at the very least enables rapists and views rape as no big deal and at the very worst one that promotes and encourages the raping of people. Am I close?
I agree, if I am dead wrong on the definition then yes, I would be holding people to an impossible standard.
I will answer the rest if you confirm I am right on the definition.
crumbalievable: I have no reason to distrust them.
cassandra: Actually, what that tells me is that you are not able to back up your false claims against me. You could at least point out one to try and prove your point.
You really think that ? I think it made you worst.
No, what it actually tells you is that you are trying my patience by demanding that other people assist you in your quest to make a political point. The fact that you are defaulting to “false claims” language doesn’t exactly incline me to believe the rest of your story, either.
Lovely lovely on-topic, taken from the original link:
“Far from being harmless or ironic fun, lads’ mags could be legitimising hostile sexist attitudes, according to new research.”
“Men identified more with the comments made by rapists more than the quotes made in lads’ mags, but men identified more with quotes said to have been drawn from lads’ mags more than those said to have been comments by convicted rapists.”
“Dr Miranda Horvath and Dr Peter Hegarty argue that the findings are consistent with the possibility that lads’ mags normalise hostile sexism, by making it seem more acceptable when its source is a popular magazine.”
“These magazines support the legitimisation of sexist attitudes and behaviours and need to be more responsible about their portrayal of women, both in words and images. They give the appearance that sexism is acceptable and normal – when really it should be rejected and challenged. Rapists try to justify their actions, suggesting that women lead men on, or want sex even when they say no, and there is clearly something wrong when people feel the sort of language used in a lads’ mag could have come from a convicted rapist.”
If anyone has any doubts about the intent or conclusion of the study… this is it. Nothing about men specifically, but more about how the magazines are making it “ok to be sexist.”
Now to slyly insert myself into the current derail. It shall be seamless. SEAMLESS!
Neither do you apparently.
This is true. It is also true in all types of criminal cases-from the cases of murder to the cases of someone trespassing on a lawn. What is the point? That mistakes happen in the prosecution of criminal cases? Yes they do. That is why we have appellate courts and the adoption in many jurisdictions of Rule 33 so there is a mechanism of review of conviction.
Actually the person who makes the allegation of illegal activity is the prosecutor. Not a plaintiff as that is civil. The Defendant is presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a trial-which can be either a jury or bench trial. As such even if the victim failed to appear, the State (whom the prosecutor represents) can still press on with the case.
But that is strictly the court of law-the court of public opinion is a very different matter.
NoMoreMrNiceGuy: “You really think that ? I think it made you worst.”
Did you know me before?
Ya know you live in a false rape society when shit like this happens on a daily basis.
http://www.denverpost.com/watercooler/ci_19509076
I’d thought I’d heard every excuse in the books for false accusations but this is a new one. Here’s an exerpt…
“She split her own lip with a pin, scraped her knuckles with sandpaper and had her friend punch her in the face. Investigators say she even ripped open her blouse, then wet her pants to give the appearance she had been knocked unconscious.
But it was all part of what authorities said Friday was an elaborate hoax by the woman to convince her husband she was raped so they could move to a safer neighborhood.”
Luckily there was no actual man indentified as the bad man in this particular instance. Had there been she might of rallied some stupid white knights to beat the shit out of, or kill an innocent men.
So here we have a woman, (psychologist of course, they know stuff), colluding with her girlfriends to get hubby to buy a bigger house. I guess when nagging, (a happy name for female verbal DV), sexual coercion, (witholding sex), doesn’t work, go for the rape victim card.
This kinda stuff is like the daily news anymore. Actually it’s not, “like the daily news.” It is the daily news. The top excuses for trying to incarcerate a man are revenge and caught cheating. Now we have to add, “Woman wanted a luxury home,” to the list of excuses.
@lj4adotcomdan:
“A vast majority of officers I have spoken to about this issue have said the officer handled it wrong. If most officers believe it was handled wrong then I have a hard time accepting it as evidence of a rape CULTURE since most would not have handled it that way. If it was part of the culture, most would handle it that way.”
Lemme give you an example here. You must have heard of the child sex-abuse scandals that have been going on in the Catholic church. Now, ultimately, there were not a huge section of priests that had actually abused kids. And, if you asked other priests, of course they would say that that behavior is wrong and un-catholic and so-on.
But here’s the rub; the reason the priests got away with it for so long was because the church was actively covering up their acts. The church was more concerned for their public image and the priests themselves than for the children that had been abused. I’m pretty sure that this, if anything, is what rape culture means. No one really condones raping women (out in the world, anyway), but when push comes to shove, society always seems to be behind the rapists. Take the story that someone brought up earlier. Here’s a quote:
“The case has rocked this East Texas community to its core and left many residents in the working-class neighborhood where the attack took place with unanswered questions. Among them is, if the allegations are proved, how could their young men have been drawn into such an act?
“It’s just destroyed our community,” said Sheila Harrison, 48, a hospital worker who says she knows several of the defendants. “These boys have to live with this the rest of their lives.””
Right. So, the reaction was not “how could we let this happen to that poor girl,” but “how could we let these boys be roped into this gang-bang rape thing.” It’s the boys that have to live with it, not the girl they raped. Getting the picture?
@NWO:
Hooray, you have found an actual instance where a woman has faked a rape. Here is a cookie. (‘.)
Now, get back to us when you can back up your claim that this is even close to “daily” news. At all. In the slightest.
cassandra: “No, what it actually tells you is that you are trying my patience by demanding that other people assist you in your quest to make a political point. The fact that you are defaulting to “false claims” language doesn’t exactly incline me to believe the rest of your story, either.”
Well, if I am coming off a a woman hater who stands opposed to feminism (what I see as an MRA) then I would really like to know as I do not hate women nor do I stand opposed to feminism.
But yes, I believe you are falsely claiming that I come off as an MRA on my falsely accused blog (or here for that matter). Would an MRA really want to fix any perceived misogyny? Would an MRA be open to hearing arguments from others on why those others believe we do live in a rape culture/society?
Yes, based on my observations, I currently deny that we live in a rape culture/society. I think there are people within our society who are rape apologists and/or who need to be educated on certain things when it comes to the issues surrounding rape.
I am not so closed minded that I would reject good arguments made. And as zhinxy pointed out, if I have an incorrect definition of what a rape culture/society is then I would be open to finding out what the actual definition is and adjusting my opinion of it accordingly.
Hell, I most recently volunteered my time for a candidate for Governor of Louisiana who is the policy director for P.A.V.E. http://pavingtheway.net/wordpress/ and I admire her for the work she has done. I doubt someone who really was an MRA would volunteer for her campaign. But hey, to each their own.
Kirbywarp: If one wanted to say that there is a rape culture within the Catholic Church, I would 100% agree with that (based on my current assumption on the definition of what having a rape culture means). If someone wanted to say that there was a rape culture at Penn State, then they would likely be correct about that as well (Sandusky is still innocent until proven guilty but the hiding of the claims
People are giving you plenty of illustrations of what we mean by rape culture and why we think we live in one, you’re just choosing to brush them off.
Wow, NWOSlave, she appears to be a terrible person. I am glad that she and her accomplices have been arrested and will be tried for the crimes they are accused of.
@kirbywarp
Hooray, you had to go back to March to find an actual rape. My example is much more current. Didn’t the gang already beat that same horse to death back in March? It’s dead already, bravo!
You’re reply is a perfect example of excusing womens poor behavior, an endemic problem perpetuated by people like you. That’s why we live in a false rape culture.
@NWO:
Hooray, I was bringing up an article that someone else had already brought up. Because I was reading it. And it was relevant. In fact, the article’s date had nothing to do with the point I was making. Yay!
Who’s behavior am I excusing anyway? Didn’t I agree that the woman in the article you brought up actually did commit “false rape” or whatever? Is not accepting that an unusual thing happens all the time condoning that thing now?
Cassandra: “People are giving you plenty of illustrations of what we mean by rape culture and why we think we live in one, you’re just choosing to brush them off.”
Well, there was a link with a rather large page that I will have to read later and the other two links you provided on the yes means yes blog that I will go back to review. But that review will be done later tonight when I have more time.
That I am discussing examples given does not mean I am brushing them off. In fact, that I am discussing them with the people who have presented them means that I am NOT brushing them off.
Actually at this point I’m not sure that you even understand what “culture” means. The Catholic church is a part of our culture, not a totally separate entity, in terms of America. In some countries it’s the majority culture and very influential.
Milkslave thinks that there have been no rapes since March. Hm.
NWOSlave: Even I do not consider what she did to be a false ACCUSATION of rape. She definitely filed a police report and faked being a victim. She definitely deserves to be punished and it looks like she may very well be. But she never accused anyone specifically there is no accusation.
No one else here is a rape advocate like NWO. Remember, he is the one saying 8 year old kids on the beach are “asking for it’ ( to be raped, specifially), and claiming 14 year olds are coming on to him.
So in summary, NWO need not be listened to in matters of justice, since he directly advocates crime.
Is NWOSlave seriously taking the term “rape culture” (which is an academic, legitimate feminist term) and adding “false” to the front of it in an attempt to make it part of his MRA vocabulary?
I find that laughably pathetic.
Not to fret kiddies, feminists have upped the ante. The definition of rape is about to be changed.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/fbi-change-definition-rape-time-1929-article-1.988510
Here’s the best part of the change.
“The new definition, which will more closely match the ones that police departments around the country already use, will remove the word “forcible,” along with several other amendments.”
That’s right kiddies, the word “forcible” is being removed. I may be the bad man but if sex isn’t forced, isn’t it consensual? I mean seriously, if you aren’t forced and consent to sex, but it can still be considered rape. Isn’t all sex rape? I guess you’re right, we do live in a rape culture when all sex can be considered rape on a womans whim or fancy.
And look at all the womens groups in the article that are thrilled with this new definition. Oh next year is most definitely gonna be a zinger!
@lj4adotcomdan:
And what do you think about the quote from the news article that I (and someone else) linked to? No cover up or scandal there, just some people in a town reacting to a tragic event.
That would be the stronger indication of a rape culture. The church thing was an example to counter your argument that if something isn’t a majority view, then there is not culture that supports it.
Now Owly is calling withholding sex the same as sexual coercion. In other news, up is down, black is white, cats & dogs cohabitate, etc..
Cassandra: “Actually at this point I’m not sure that you even understand what “culture” means. The Catholic church is a part of our culture, not a totally separate entity, in terms of America. In some countries it’s the majority culture and very influential.”
I understand all that. But there was much backlash by the entirety of our culture as a whole, including by many parishioners within the Catholic church, when it was revealed how far the protection of rapists went within the church. If my stated definition of what a rape culture is is a correct one, then the backlash would stand in opposition to the claim that we live in a rape culture.
He is just mad that rape and domestic abuse are still illegal. He wants it to be legal to beat someone up and rape them.
I’d argue that the only reason that backlash happened was because the victims were little boys. It was partly that society takes sexual abuse of children more seriously than that of adults, and partly homophobia, that led to the general sense of outrage.
@NWO:
Aww, you disappoint me slavey. I thought for sure you’d actually respond to me and justify your accusation of me condoning bad behavior, not just jump into an unrelated-but-equally-misguided-rant-over-some-other-thing…
Here is the proposed change.
Before: “Carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will.” (from 1929)
After: “penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”
So yeah… consensual sex? Totally not rape. Non-consensual sex? Totally rape. I don’t see why you want to hang yourself on bemoaning this particular change… Especially since it gets rid of the gender-specific language that you so often say you hate.
@Moewicus
No sex for hubby until he buys wifey a new luxury home in the burbs. Women who love too much! Wasn’t that a book written a while back? I think she was a therapist as well.
—————-
@Bostonian
I didn’t know domestic abuse, (I’m assuming you mean women as eternal victims) was legal? When was that exactly?
You almost get the sense that Slavey doesn’t actually read these things, just looks for some key-words and BAM! Instant rant.
kirbywarp: “And what do you think about the quote from the news article that I (and someone else) linked to? No cover up or scandal there, just some people in a town reacting to a tragic event.”
I am disturbed at the hospital worker who said “These boys have to live with this the rest of their lives.”, as if they are the victims.
Does one person making a completely moronic quote mean we live in a rape culture? No.
“That would be the stronger indication of a rape culture. The church thing was an example to counter your argument that if something isn’t a majority view, then there is not culture that supports it.”
There may be sub-cultures (like the heirarchy in the Catholic Church) that can rightly be said to be a rape culture without causing the entire culture as a whole to be a rape culture.
I think Slavey’s brain is permanently set to “look for opportunities to deposit incoherent rant” mode.