Rapists, lad mags, and the Men’s Rights subreddit
Lad mags: Always covering the most important stories
What’s the difference between a lad mag and a rapist? Aside from one being a magazine and the other a person, albeit an reprehensible one, apparently not very much.
In a study soon to be published in the British Journal of Psychology, researchers at Middlesex University and the University of Surrey showed people quotes about women from British lad mags (FHM, Loaded, Nuts and Zoo) and from convicted rapists. Most survey respondents – men and women both – could not tell the difference between the quotes from the magazines and the quotes from the rapists. And most of the male respondents identified more with the quotes from the rapists than from the lad mags.
Here are some of the quotes the survey respondents were asked to react to. (You can find more at Jezebel.) Can you tell which of these are from rapists or lad mags?
Mascara running down the cheeks means they’ve just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.
You’ll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they’ll do it willingly.
Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?
I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.
In case you’re wondering, the correct answers are: Lad mag, Rapist, Rapist, Lad Mag.
Creepy, eh?
Lead researcher Miranda Horvath of Middlesex University explains why she feels this is so troubling:
Rapists try to justify their actions, suggesting that women lead men on, or want sex even when they say no, and there is clearly something wrong when people feel the sort of language used in a lads’ mag could have come from a convicted rapist.
I would say so.
And so, you might wonder, how did the regulars on the Men’s Rights subreddit react this this research? Take a look.
The comment with the most upvotes offered some nice juicy denial:
The comment with the second-highest number of upvotes completely missed the point:
And then there was this hot mess:
In case anyone is wondering, that quote from French is actually a quote from a character in one of her novels. And it’s pretty easy to distinguish it from things posted on Jezebel, because none of the writers on Jezebel ever say anything even remotely like that.
The Men’s Rights subreddit, responding to evidence of rape culture by going “la la la I can’t hear you” since March 2008.
Posted on December 11, 2011, in antifeminism, creepy, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, rape, rapey, reddit, that's not funny!. Bookmark the permalink. 758 Comments.
@VoiP
You are projecting. I’m in a happy place.
Thomas: Dude, I’m a fucking discordian. I get it, you’re being an asshat while not making sense on purpose. There’s no art or depth in that, it’s just being an asshat in public.
If you want to learn about the joyful art of making no fucking sense at all, read the Principia Discordia, consult your pineal gland, and don’t be an asshat.
I tried to make mango chutney last year but it turned out kind of badly and I haven’t tried chutney since then. What’s your recipe?
KathleenB: Love to the principia forever. fnord!
I totally have the worst black thumb EVER. My parents grew trees for a living for most of my life, my dad made the most amazingly beautiful bonsai, but the only thing I can coax to grow it mint. And that’s threatening to take over the back yard. I’m trying to figure out if we get enough sunlight to do the corn/beans/squash combo in the front, I understand that’s not exactly foolproof, but it can’t hurt to try.
Does anyone know how to make a good mint chutney? I don’t like the sweet kind that you get in jars, but I love the thin, sour kind.
These “Lad Mags” do a great deal to insinuate coercion and PUA-style manipulation as being part of normal, day to day behaviour of men, especially appealing to the more clueless of the species, who actually believe those things and seek to use the info as a life guide. At least most women know Cosmo is a bit of a joke. Maxim readers? Not so sure.
Also, the key that the MRA’s are missing in the meaning of the supposed and so-called “rape fantasies” is that it isn’t actually about rape. Male therapists traditionally labelled these fantasies as such, very inaccurately. It is the desire to be desired powerfully, but by someone you already have approved and in turn desire and trust to not harm you. I suspect many men harbor similar daydreams of desirable and likeable (to their specs) women becoming “unstoppably” aroused.
I highly doubt the narcissistic “unstoppable desire” fantasy of man or women or others, is in any way a social carte blanche to begin raping at will. The fact that one of these douchebags sites this fantasy as some sort of “proof”, of the rapability of others/ the rapiness of some, is just sick, disturbing and saddening.
“Whuut? Wimmins want to be raypedd. They fantasyzze abouts itt! lemme fix datt”
Fleshlights are not women. Fantasies are not unfulfilled life plans.
Speaking as someone who’s been to Fanfiction.net a lot lately, I’m going to guess “a couple of anime dudes doing it”.
Steph: Yeah, most MRAs don’t quite get the whole slash thing. They seem to find it to gross to contemplate.
Also funny – we have here a whole thread of women expressing their desire for men who’re mostly adorably nerdy, and not at all Pittlike, and yet apparently that doesn’t even make a dent in the usual assumptions.
I mean don’t get me wrong, Tennent is adorable, but I can’t see anyone hiring him to be an underwear model.
I’d guess it’s anime versions of the 10th and 11th doctors doing it in a basket of kittens. Or something like that.
Or maybe the anime dudes just have kitty ears.
(Yes, a friend made me watch Gravitation.)
Thomas:
Nope, I’m going to have to go with it’s meaningless word salad. Probably because you’re drunk.
@KathleenB
I envy you for your mint. Three years ago I bought four mint plants including a so-called Hemingway mint which was apparently imported from Cuba and is the best mint for Mojitos. Every single plant died expect of the boring, standard mint.
@Voip
A lot of green tomatoes, a bit of celery and onions, vinegar, sugar, pepper corns and fennel seeds. I wouldn’t recommend it unless you have to get rid of green tomatoes.
If this is true, I have to say to Thomas: Up your game, clownshoe! Oh, maybe I’m an advanced drunken blog commenter, but it seems like one should be able to expect more from drunken young internet rapscallions these days.
All these projections and stupid assumptions by VoiP. Believe it or not, for example I’m single and don’t want a relationship but I’m not desperate or angry and I emphatically do not hate women.
Thomas
Hmm, that actually sounds like something I would not enjoy. Thank you anyway. Can you make salsa with green tomatoes like you can with tomatillos?
Lian Li
I’m sorry, was I talking to you?
@Cassandra, those are dog ears, it’s a running theme, Loveless is the one with the cat ears (though it is creepy and borderline pedo-y, so I am not a fan)
I actually found Gravitation a bit creepy. I know that technically the one with the ears is supposed to be of age, more or less, but he just looks so young that it trips the “ew, pedo-y” alarms in my brain. Partially that’s just because I have a very low tolerence for that level of cutesy.
Cassandra, I wasn’t going to add this to the conversation, because I didn’t think it worth remarking up until you pointed out the conversation’s contradiction to a manosphere maxim.
I found that girl, asking to run her fingers through David Tennent’s hair, to be quite creepy. In the context shown in the video, I don’t believe asking to touch someone would be appropriate.
He agreed, but I’ve agreed to hugging strangers when under social pressure. I am projecting my personality unto him in that situation (he seems to be better accepting physical contact from strangers), it just feels like it would of been very uncomfortable.
Therefore, I found her creepy.
…
David Tennent can still reduce me to dolphin noises though. Squeeee!
Yeah, I found her behavior a bit weird too to be honest. It’s charming how graciously he deals with it, but part of what I like about his response is that he gently, gracefully makes it clear how creepy she’s being.
@Voip
I’ve never cooked with tomatillos. It’s not something you can buy here, maybe for a ridiculous price in a deli. So I don’t really know, I guess it’s worth a try.
That’s too bad, they’re delicious: they’re firm and have a light, pure sourness, like a mild tomato taste with a hint of lemon.
Regarding womens “rape fantasies” and their alleged pervasiveness, lemme just say this:
I have no doubt that many women fantasize about being physically overpowered, but pretty much no women fantasize about being violated. And yes, those are 2 different things.
BTW, Maxim(mag) is the rectum of guy magazines. It really makes men look incredibly stupid, and though I try not to take it srsly I don’t have a high tolerance for such literary retardation.
Shuichi is 18 and Yuki is in his early twenties at beginning of the of the manga. Shuichi is shown drinking in public in the anime, making him at least 20. He’s of age and the age gap between him and Yuki isn’t too big (Yuki’s teenager brother is at times mistaken for him in both the manga and anime, Yuki is younger and more immature than some of the anime viewers peg him to be), so his hyperness at times is a character issue and not a pedo issue. Loveless has what, a twelve year old and a college student? Though they don’t actually do anything explicit in Loveless to my knowledge, that’s way over the line into creeper territory.
I usually lurk here, but would just like to point out that quite apart from the usual MRA rhetoric, substitution in Latin requires a heck of a lot more than a vague memory from Gladiator, like, you know, DECLINING YOUR NOUNS.
@Arks: The study is due to be published in the British Journal of Psychology (a peer-reviewed academic journal). And the University won’t be publishing it, silly thing; the two researchers (one woman, one man) will be. Both have published a good half dozen or more studies already (in peer reviewed journals).
It. Will. Be. Published.
So what is this study supposed to lead to? I can try to guess.
a)British people can’t see the difference between a rapist quote and a lad mag quote (I guessed them all correctly, cool :) )
b)All men are potential rapists.
c)Rapists are motivated by sex, just like the lad mag readers.
“The Men’s Rights subreddit, responding to evidence of rape culture by going “la la la I can’t hear you” since March 2008.”
Good thing I wasn’t drinking while reading that.
It doesn’t matter if women are fantasizing about rape or about being overpowered. Even when people (consensually) act on rape fantasies and the like, it’s still nothing like rape. Because in real rape you can’t: choose your rapist, choose the modality, decide to stop if it is scary, uncomfortable, if it hurts in a way you don’t like, or even if you’re bored and would prefer to do crosswords instead.
Girl ruffling Tennant’s hair: yeah, a bit weird and creepy.
“Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?
NWOslave?”
Actually, I’m willing to bet that the guy who said that was using “girl” to mean “adult, but I’m too sexist and condescending to call her a woman”. In NWO’s case, he’d probably be talking about an actual girl, as in a female child. (How old were those kids on the beach in their oh so sexy swimsuits again?)
NWO – Creepier than at least one convicted rapist.
I got 10/15 right, 0 that I agree with and 15 that I found creepy.
ScheherezadeI usually lurk here, but would just like to point out that quite apart from the usual MRA rhetoric, substitution in Latin requires a heck of a lot more than a vague memory from Gladiator, like, you know, DECLINING YOUR NOUNS.
Yeah, I saw that too.
My #1 sexual fantasy is pegging a guy up the bum, but none of the roving gangs of men who go around fulfilling women’s sexual fantasies without even needing to be asked (isn’t that nice of them?) seem interested in that.
jesus christ, aren’t some of you guys in school? It’s finals week, How the uck can you spend so much goddamn time on here?
O that’s right, you’re all sociology and spychology majros and shit. GUESS WHAT? I’ve been up 36 hours straight!!!!!!!! That’s what consequentiasl majors do.
FUCK U
useless majors:
english
sociology
women’s studies
black people studies
psychoklogy
philosophy
good majors:
science
math
Is it telling that seeing the line at the top of the magazine cover pictured made me think:
The MRA: When Brahs can’t cope.
Welcome to the land of disgusting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5OdQGbVNa4
Isn’t this a little disingenuous? I mean, I am sure the quotes they picked were not randomly selected. They were purposefully picked to get the worse from these “lad mags” so that they sound enough like the words from the rapists. But they pick the words of the rapists that do not actually condone rape. The quotes from the rapists basically say that a woman is more willing to do things with you if you are able to convince them to and that when some men will see an attractive woman that they will imagine what they might do with such a woman. That is not a shocker. And yes, I agree with the comments from the rapists more than I agree with the comments from the “lad mag”. What does that mean?
It is like this silly test that I had to take when applying for a job. One of the questions went like this. “I am more angry than nervous”. I had four choices, Strongly agree, agree, strongly disagree or disagree. Well, I am hardly ever angry and I am hardly ever nervous. But if I had to say one over the other I would say that I might get angry more often than I get nervous. But that doesn’t mean I would lose my temper on the job. It was absolutely irrelevant.
So…. I agree with a rapist that seducing a woman (i.e. making her attracted enough to you that she wants to have consensual sex with you) makes you more likely to have sex with her and that sometimes when I see a woman who is attractive I might think “damn, that must be nice”. I disagree that screwing a crying woman is the answer to her problems and that “warming a girl up” doesn’t necessarily mean she will do anything you want. So that means what exactly?
What is the point these researchers are trying to make?
And I do not even know the context in which the quotes from the “lad mag” were given. I mean, if the first one was given as a serious bit of advice or was given as a joke… I don’t know. I do not have the entire article to make that determination.
@Holly: Interestingly, when I did a search to fact check NWO, I believe I happened to land on whatever health/sexuality website he used to justify his belief because, yeah, rape fantasies were #1. Second place? Pegging.
Here’s some Game for you PUA enthusiasts: developping an interest in a fantasy that is niche amongst men but second most popular amongst women is probably going to help you differentiate yourself on the meat market. ;)
@zhinxy
(Sorry, I know the conversation’s gone on but I had add…)
Yes! We need more of Matt Smith talking to babies! I also want to do an experiment in which he talks to a box of kittens, a baby llama, and a very small fainting goat. (To further test the range of sheer adorableness!)
The fact that it was possible for them to do so is a problem in itself.
Since we’re discussing a convicted rapist, wouldn’t that imply that his ideas of acceptable techniques for obtaining a woman’s consent might be a little less benign than you make them sound?
I’m sure a lot of rapists do consider their techniques “seduction.” This is because they’re deluding themselves and trying to make their victims sound unreasonable. Just because a rapist calls it “seduction” doesn’t mean it actually was.
“The fact that it was possible for them to do so is a problem in itself.”
No, because as I said later, who is to say that the quotes were taken out of context. What if the comment about screwing a crying woman was just a tasteless joke not meant to be taken seriously? I cannot know because I do not have the context in which it was given.
“Since we’re discussing a convicted rapist, wouldn’t that imply that his ideas of acceptable techniques for obtaining a woman’s consent might be a little less benign than you make them sound?”
No. Not every person a rapist has sex with is a victim of rape. Notice the quote. “You can usually seduce them and they will do it willingly”. Now, I think it is likely that if the rapist failed in his seduction and that she was unwilling to do what he wanted that the rapist is more likely to then take what he wanted by force. But it is possible that a person who has been convicted of rape may have very well convinced some women to have consensual sex with them in a benign way.
Him being a rapist does not mean he uses malignant ways to obtain consent. It means he has, on at least one occasion and likely on more occasions than that, has ignored consent to begin with.
Here’s the thing. The actions that a rapist might call “seduction” are merely methods of removing a person’s ability to say no. As in; making sure s/he’s drunk to the point of semi- or unconsciousness. Refusing to leave and harassing him or her until s/he’s broken down to the point where letting you go ahead is the only option because then maybe you might fucking LEAVE. Manipulating a teenager who is under your authority. A rapist will use the word seduction even when his(*) actions are in fact criminal assault.
Actual seduction entails charming the other person so that they want you. Removing that person’s ability to say no when they want to say no is not seduction. It is rape.
(*Yes, I understand that women can be rapists. And that men can be raped. Until there is a widely accepted gender neutral pronoun in our language, I have to choose.)
-sigh- blockquote fail
I’m sure a lot of rapists do consider their techniques “seduction.” This is because they’re deluding themselves and trying to make their victims sound unreasonable. Just because a rapist calls it “seduction” doesn’t mean it actually was.
Ultimately, the rapist definition of seduction is irrelevant. How the people questioned for the study define seduction is what is relevant.
But the quote does include “do it willingly”, implying that there was consent. And again, the definition of what consent is to a rapist is not relevant. What is relevant is the definition of consent to the person being asked the question as part of the study. And most people define consent to sexual behavior as agreeing to the acts, hopefully enthusiastically so.
I failed at the quote thing to. The first paragraph in my last post should be quoted.
“And most of the male respondents identified more with the quotes from the rapists than from the lad mags.”
That is what I am focusing on here. That a respondent identifies with quotes made by a rapist doesn’t mean that they agree with the rapist on what the quotes mean. If the rapist includes the use of Rohypnol as part of seduction, it doesn’t mean that the respondent also agrees that the use of Rohypnol to get someone into bed is a valid form of seduction.
It just means that the respondent believes that if one seduces a woman she is more likely to crawl into bed, or a back seat, with you and have sexual intercourse. The respondent is likely not a rapist and as such would typically use ethical and legal means to attempt to seduce a woman.
on what the research means (from the video in the first link)
I disagree. When people condone rape, it’s not as simple as “Isn’t rape a fun activity!??”, it is exactly what these rapists said?
1. Sexy/skin showing clothing indicate desire to sex. (see “a woman sexuality is her body”)
2. Objectification of women.
5. Women who reject you:doesn’t have have sex with you intent to hurt you.
7. Gendered insults and well… this one actually says that rape is okay in response to women acting like “bitches”
9. This one, I agree is not so simple to analyze without knowing the source, and ergo the context. However, when you know it is from an interview with a rapist, it become obvious that it is about getting around the lack of consent without, as much as possible, resorting to violence or direct threats. In case I’m not being clear, here is an illustration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ1lc6KASWg
11. Again, wearing sexy clothes is asking for sex/accepting sex. It doesn’t matter what the woman actually says, her clothing equals “I accept sex with you”
13. Men must dominate women.
14. Women clothes should be regulated by law. Again, wearing sexy clothes is asking for sex/accepting sex.
So, only sexists and creepy quotes. Nothing about how they love their pet or the weather or their best pick-up lines, just a explanation about why what they did should have been ok or at least they thought it was.
And yet, lads’ mags quotes are not worse, not enough that men would be capable to differentiate them.
You’ll also note that sexism is viewed has more acceptable when brought by lads’ mags.
The content would be useful, but we don’t need it. Rape jokes are a part of the rape culture, the same way racist jokes are a part of the racism culture. Unless the point of the joke is “haha, rape/misogyny/racism/… is a stupid thing”, its result – if not its intent – is to trivialize the subject.
@NWOSlave
Just wondering… is your name supposed to stand for “New World Order Slave”?
why am ii on FUCKING MODERATION STILL???
Stephanie, for what I know, it does. Maybe he’ll confirm that later.
Now, if someone could explain me what it is exactly… The skate park down my building is covered with stickers of the “NWO wants you to lie” and things like that, because I live across the Atlantic and I would have thought that was an Americano-American conspiracy theory.
And I don’t really get what’s it’s about, is it here already, is it coming? is it a good or bad thing? How is it going to happen, (if it’s not already there) If it is bad, what’s the counter attack plan? Are the feminists controlled by it, controlling it? Who is it, btw?
I’m a bit lost.
Kyrie: I will admit that I was using just the quotes that David used and not the entirety of the quotes used in the study.
Those two quotes cited by David, attributed to rapists, are not condoning rape. (2 and 9 from the list) I would also say that 1, 5, and 13 also are not condoning rape (though 13 is still highly awful and potentially abusive but not sexually so).
7, 11, and 14 should be seen as condoning rape.
And where did I say that condoning rape = saying “rape is awesome”?
I reject the idea that someone who makes a rape joke must be classified in either two of your pigeonholes.
I also have problems with the idea that we live in a “rape culture” (of for that matter a “false rape culture” as MRA like to claim). Most people in our society believe that rape is wrong and believe that falsely accusing someone of rape is wrong. To me, both claims are absurd .
@Kyrie
I really hope his username does stand for “New World Order Slave.” I’ve been reading his comments on this blog, and I think that would explain a lot. He doesn’t understand how the world *actually* works, so he reads all kinds of crap on the internet about conspiracies. He seems to think of feminism as a conspiracy as well.
And from what I know about it, the NWO has something to do with all kinds of elite people, with all kinds of elite strategies, and with all kinds of elite ways to coordinate together, trying to take over the world. The idea is that they are supposed to create some sort of “one world government”. I think they’re supposed to achieve this by slowly “taking away rights”.
Its a hot mess. Its basically for people that have no idea how social movements, states, etc. actually function.
But if NWOSlave actually does believe in this, it would explain his feminist beliefs as well.
Maybe he thinks feminism is part of the NWO? Maybe he’s read this book (I found this the other day):
Cruel Hoax: Feminism and the New World Order
I think “NWO wants you to lie” has something to do with the idea that the NWO is coming, but nobody knows about it and that’s why its going to succeed, and you’re lying if you don’t want to admit its existence? Or something. Who knows, lol.
The New World Order conspiracy theory is more like a loose collection of several conspiracy theories. I know both liberals and conservatives who talk about it. Basically, whatever your personal “boogeyman” is becomes the group who is conspiring for global domination. For example, if you’re a white supremacist bigot, it’s the “Zionist bankers.” I have a liberal friend who is quite a tinfoil hattie and she thinks it’s “scientists” and “the government,” who use “black ops” and secret technology like HAARP to cause global mayhem by triggering things like earthquakes (for example, she says the recent earthquake in Japan was caused by the United States and a weaponized earthquake caused by HAARP).
The Rothschild crap that NWO spews here is part of the anti-Semitic side of the conspiracy theory. Otherwise you have the Masons and the Illuminati, who may or may not be lizard people, depending on which crackpot you’re talking to.
Oh the New World Order seems to be a catch-all term for the organization that runs everything in various conspiracy theories. In fundamentalist Christian conspiracy circles it’s tied into the apocalypse and the anti-christ. To white supremacist conspiracy theorists its the Jews. Some chuck in aliens, others the occult, the really kooky ones mix it all up into a nice big ball of stupid.
See, the thing is, that because the NWO doesn’t exist it can contain all the things (and people) you hate. A rather convenient tool to justify your delusions.
Ironically enough it seems like feminists are the only group NOT mentioned on the wikipedia page for the NWO conspiracy…and that’s because feminists secretly run the NWO and organize it so that no-one mentions their involvement. Evidence!
Many people also have no problem insinuating that a victim was “asking for it” if she was dressed too “slutty” or drinking, or based on how many partners she had in the past.
Most people think murder is wrong, yet never insinuate that a murder victim was asking for it. Nor do the courts try to pin the responsibility and blame on the murder victim.
I suggest you actually look up what rape culture is. It’s not saying rape is okay, but it does accept certain attitudes like the ones that the convicted rapists quoted. It does accept the idea that women don’t know what they want and that no means yes. It does try to paint men getting women drunk on purpose in order to get their guard down as something normal and to be expected. It enables PUAs to make money off of their coercive and manipulative techniques.
I thought the “New World Order” was the plan to achieve a one-world government? Or is that just one part of many of these conspiracy theories?
“Ironically enough it seems like feminists are the only group NOT mentioned on the wikipedia page for the NWO conspiracy…and that’s because feminists secretly run the NWO and organize it so that no-one mentions their involvement. Evidence!”
Haha.
this explains it pretty well: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2009/10/19/rape-culture-101/
Quackers: I wish you would have included the whole paragraph in your quote: What I said was: “I also have problems with the idea that we live in a “rape culture” (of for that matter a “false rape culture” as MRA like to claim). Most people in our society believe that rape is wrong and believe that falsely accusing someone of rape is wrong. To me, both claims are absurd:
People could take your inclusion of only the last two sentences really badly.
“Many people also have no problem insinuating that a victim was “asking for it” if she was dressed too “slutty” or drinking, or based on how many partners she had in the past.”
Many does not mean most. I believe that most people believe that those three things do not equate with consent to sex.
“Most people think murder is wrong, yet never insinuate that a murder victim was asking for it. Nor do the courts try to pin the responsibility and blame on the murder victim.”
In murder cases the victim is not around to question the credibility of the claims being made. We also know that the person in question is dead. If there are issues that could damage the credibility of the accuser, such things are relevant in a criminal trial. (Dressing in a short skirt, drinking, or enjoying a variety of men are not things that should ever be taken as removing credibility).
I think we still have a culture with institutionalized sexism. I think that is wrong and needs to change. But I have looked into what people mean when we live in a rape culture. I have also seen many examples of “proof” cited to prove that we live in a rape culture and I just don’t buy it. I think many examples of the “proof” do prove that we have institutionalized sexism though.
Nobody I know, and hardly anybody I see, suggests that no means yes. Most people I am aware of view the purposeful attempt to get someone drunk just to have sex with them as rape as well. Again, that is why I disagree with the notion that our culture just accepts these things. It does not. I see more people claiming that if two drunk people hook up that it must be the male raping the female (even though the man was drunk too, so how did he consent?)
I promise I will read that entire page later. Even if there is a rape culture, comments like this do not help to support it and help to make the author look like a kook.
“Rape culture is treating straight sexuality as the norm. Rape culture is lumping queer sexuality into nonconsensual sexual practices like pedophilia and bestiality. ”
Neither of those things have anything to do with rape! So how is it proof of a rape culture?
Heterosexuality is the “norm”. It is most common. That I acknowledge that fact does not mean I believe there is anything wrong with people who are naturally oriented to other forms of sexuality.
And I am completely annoyed with those who try and suggest that if we allow same gender marriage then why wouldn’t we allow people to marry their dogs. It is an illogical argument on many levels and typically made by the worst people in the religious conservative ranks. But it has nothing to do with rape. So how is it proof of (or an example of) a rape culture?
As a long time follower of conspiracy theories left, right, and center, and what I like to call “skeptically paranoid” I could start and not stop when it comes to NWO theories, but for starters I cannot rec enough Robert Anton Wilson’s Everything’s Under Control.
Everything Is Under Control: Conspiracies, Cults, and Cover-ups
@Kyrie
Or “If a woman wants to have sex with you, she will wear sexy clothes and show off her body while flirting”. The sentence becomes rapey once you know a rapist said it and can thus speculate better on the intent, but without that knowledge it may well be a clumsy formulation of something that is probably true.
5 is slightly similar. If such a thing does happen, it is kind of mean, and probably a good idea to limit contact with that person. It’s certainly not a justification for rape, because nothing ever is, of course. And once you know it’s a rapist it seems likely that the “teasing” was all in his head. But it’s not completely unreasonable to read it as not rapey.
I agree with you on 9, however isn’t the point that participants did not know which quote was by a rapist and which one wasn’t.
7, 11, and 14 are cases that seem unmistakably rapey to me. 2 and 13 pretty much as well, although one could try to make a case there that it’s just generally pretty bad comments.
In some cases I can see a non-rapist interpretation of a rapist statement, and a rapist interpretation of a magazine statement. That’s not surprising; language is ambiguous and context matters. Also, wasn’t there a big discussion in another thread yesterday on how it’s impossible to determine who is a rapist and who isn’t, and that therefore rape prevention does not work?
The participants also identified on average with the rapists’ quote more than with the magazines’. Looking at the quotes, some of the magazine ones seem ridiculously stupid. “If you can make a woman want to sleep with you, she will be more likely to sleep with you”, “if a woman dresses up for you, she may want to sleep with you” and even “Getting dick-teased sucks” seem more reasonable than “It’s exiting when there’s a chance that I will die during sex!” or “prostitutes are better than girlfriends!”.
And when the participants were told that a statement was by a rapist they rated it as less acceptable. Seems like adding context helps people judge sentences.
I’d really like to read the actual study to find out more about their process of item selection and procedure. The press release is quite thin on actual info, and some quantitative results would be nice too. This type of research is really difficult to do.
NWO sound great! I like the part about about the lizard people.
lj4a:
“Those two quotes cited by David, attributed to rapists, are not condoning rape. [...] 1, 5, and 13 also are not condoning rape [...].”
Not all quote are directly condoning. But they all are full of sexism that enable the rapist to self justify and therefore are part of the rape culture. All the quotes are about the idea that the victim wanted the sexual relation,or deserved it as a punishment, or that the rapist deserved it, as a man.
Actually, you might want to check what Meller said very recently:
http://manboobz.com/2011/12/08/how-to-creep-out-the-entire-internet-lovelorn-banker-edition/comment-page-7/#comment-94789
It’s very similar, in the way that it does not directly condone rape or abuse but justify nonetheless by claiming that some behaviors (mostly imaginary) provoke the attack.
You should bear in mind that I’m not in any way stretching the meaning of these quotes, there directly drawn from interviews of rapists trying to justify their actions and explaining their mindset.
“And where did I say that condoning rape = saying “rape is awesome”?”
It was in response to your claim that the quotes were not condoning rape. But I think we agree on the subject.
“I reject the idea that someone who makes a rape joke must be classified in either two of your pigeonholes.”
What do you disagree with, the comparison with racist jokes or the idea that racist jokes are harmful in a racist context? Do you think treating rape as a light subject is harmless?
“I also have problems with the idea that we live in a [...] “false rape culture”” as MRA like to claim).”
I just checked the website linked to your name, “falsely accused”. I can’t say I’m not surprised given the sentence above. Not that it necessarily oppose what you said, though.
On the rape culture, others answered and quite well.
@lj4adotcomdan
You’re missing the point. Straight sexuality, as the “norm” (aka most socially valuable form of sexuality–so no, being the “norm” does not mean its just more prevalent) does not exist in a vacuum. There are power relations WITHIN heterosexual relations, and these are what legitimize and reinforce rape culture.
In other words, there is a certain power dynamic between males and females–this is a heteronormative power dynamic. Within our heteronormative society, males are supposed to pursue women, and women are supposed to be pursued. This is an inherently unequal power dynamic.
This is considered natural, legitimate, and normal–hence, “the norm.”
When men are constructed as the pursuers/initiators, women are given no agency. They are constructed to be pursued, to be preyed on, to be groped on the subway, to be raped.
THAT is rape culture.
I totally believe it. It’s like they’re all written by the same 20-year old creepy rapist dudebro. Maxim is the worst. I browsed about their website once and I swear I almost punched my computer (I was reading an article on how to treat female coworkers. Maxim’s answer- as your half-witted office slaves, apparently). And this was before their reprehensible ‘cure a feminist’ article- http://www.ltcconline.net/lukas/gender/political/pics/political21.jpg
I will never fuck a man who reads maxim.