How to creep out the entire internet, lovelorn banker edition
Try dressing as a nun. Then maybe he'll go away.
Dating can be tough. It can be especially tough if your personality is a mixture of petulance and insecurity. And even tougher if you think you can argue someone who’s not interested in you into a second date with an angry, accusatory, sometimes hilarious, sometimes deeply unsettling 1600-word email. And no, I’m not speaking hypothetically here.
The email in question, written by a young investment banker named Mike to an unfortunate woman named Lauren after one less-than-great date, was posted on Reddit a couple of days ago, and has already gotten a lot of internetty attention, but some of you may not have seen it, so I thought I’d give it a little fisking anyway. Settle in; it’s going to be a long and bumpy ride. (Note: What follows below is most of the email; I’ve cut out a few passages here and there.)
Hi Lauren,
I’m disappointed in you. I’m disappointed that I haven’t gotten a response to my voicemail and text messages.
Well, we’re off to a not-so-good start. Perhaps she is, as they say, just not that into you?
FYI, I suggest that you keep in mind that emails sound more impersonal, harsher, and are easier to misinterpret than in-person or phone communication. After all, people can’t see someone’s body language or tone of voice in an email. I’m not trying to be harsh, patronizing, or insulting in this email. I’m honest and direct by nature, and I’m going to be that way in this email.
Gosh, I wonder why Lauren didn’t get back to him.
By the way, I did a google search, so that’s how I came across your email.
Google-stalking – always a nice touch. There’s no better way to charm a nice lady than by tracking down her personal information online.
I assume that you no longer want to go out with me. (If you do want to go out with me, then you should let me know.) I suggest that you make a sincere apology to me for giving me mixed signals. I feel led on by you.
Uh, what? She’s ignoring you, dude. She doesn’t want to go out with you. Seems to me she’s sending you a pretty unmixed message here.
Should she have responded to your voicemail and/or texts? In an ideal world, perhaps, but she may have sensed that you’d react precisely how you’re reacting now, and didn’t want to have anything more to do with your creepy, entitled bullshit.
And now Mike the banker makes his, er, “case” for why she should go on a second date with him:
Things that happened during our date include, but are not limited to, the following:
-You played with your hair a lot. A woman playing with her hair is a common sign of flirtation. You can even do a google search on it. When a woman plays with her hair, she is preening. I’ve never had a date where a woman played with her hair as much as you did. In addition, it didn’t look like you were playing with your hair out of nervousness.
You were flirting!! Hair-twirling = sex! If you don’t realize it you can google search it!!!
-We had lots of eye contact during our date. On a per-minute basis, I’ve never had as much eye contact during a date as I did with you.
Eye contact is an Indicator of Interest. IOI! IOI! If you didn’t want to bear my children why did you look at me, with your eyes????
-You said, “It was nice to meet you.” at the end of our date. A woman could say this statement as a way to show that she isn’t interested in seeing a man again or she could mean what she said–that it was nice to meet you. The statement, by itself, is inconclusive.
Well, not really. This is what people say to be polite at the end of a disappointing date, when they don’t want to see you again. If she wanted to see you again, she would have said something about making plans for a second date.
-We had a nice conversation over dinner. I don’t think I’m being delusional in saying this statement.
We had a conversation! You did not flee in horror! Therefore you must have my babies!!!
In my opinion, leading someone on (i.e., giving mixed signals) is impolite and immature. It’s bad to do that.
And sending someone who clearly wants nothing to do with you a long, creepy, accusatory tirade is polite?
Normally, I would not be asking for information if a woman and I don’t go out again after a first date. However, in our case, I’m curious because I think our date went well and that there is a lot of potential for a serious relationship.
Dude, you do understand that she has to actually like you too in order for there to be a relationship?
I think we should go out on a second date. In my opinion, our first date was good enough to lead to a second date.
You cannot argue someone into a second date! That’s not how it works.
Why am I writing you? Well, hopefully, we will go out again. Even if we don’t, I gain utility from expressing my thoughts to you.
Gain utility? Really? DATING IS NOT MICROECONOMICS!
In addition, even if you don’t want to go out again, I would like to get feedback as to why you wouldn’t want to go again. Normally, I wouldn’t ask a woman for this type of feedback after a first date, but this is an exception given I think we have a lot of potential.
Well, banker dude. You’re getting some feedback now. All over the internet.
If you don’t want to go again, then apparently you didn’t think our first date was good enough to lead to a second date. Dating or a relationship is not a Hollywood movie. It’s good to keep that in mind. In general, I thought the date went well and was expecting that we would go out on a second date.
So your argument is that she should go out with you, even though she doesn’t want to go out with you, because life isn’t perfect and you’re probably the best she really deserves?
Way to sell yourself, dude.
If you’re not interested in going out again, then I would have preferred if you hadn’t given those mixed signals. I feel led on.
Well, she’s not really responsible for you thinking that every woman who twirls her hair in your presence wants to have your babies.
We have a number of things in common.
Oh dear, sounds like we’ve got another “logical” argument coming up here.
I’ll name a few things: First, we’ve both very intelligent. Second, we both like classical music so much that we go to classical music performances by ourselves. In fact, the number one interest that I would want to have in common with a woman with whom I’m in a relationship is a liking of classical music. I wouldn’t be seriously involved with a woman if she didn’t like classical music. You said that you’re planning to go the NY Philharmonic more often in the future. As I said, I go to the NY Philharmonic often. You’re very busy. It would be very convenient for you to date me because we have the same interests. We already go to classical music performances by ourselves. If we go to classical music performances together, it wouldn’t take any significant additional time on your part.
Um, what?
I have no clever remark to make here, other than that Lauren is probably going to have to avoid going to the Philharmonic ever again, on the off chance she might run into banker Mike.
According to the internet, you’re 33 or 32, so, at least from my point of view, we’re a good match in terms of age.
YOU ARE RIGHT AGE. INTERNET SAYS SO. THEREFORE YOU MUST DATE ME.
I could name more things that we have in common, but I’ll stop here. I don’t understand why you apparently don’t want to go out with me again. We have numerous things in common.
Also, you both require oxygen to live. Lauren, can’t you see that you and banker Mike are soulmates?
I assume that you find me physically attractive. If you didn’t find me physically attractive, then it would have been irrational for you to go out with me in the first place. After all, our first date was not a blind date. You already knew what I looked like before our date.
Banker Mike: You said you wanted feedback. Here is some feedback. She was apparently not horrified by your physical appearance. It may be your horrible personality that needs some work.
Perhaps, you’re unimpressed that I manage my family’s investments and my own investments. Perhaps, you don’t think I have a “real” job. Well, I’ve done very well as an investment manager. I’ve made my parents several millions of dollars. That’s real money. That’s not monopoly money. In my opinion, if I make real money, it’s a real job. Donald Trump’s children work for his company. Do they have “real” jobs? I think so. George Soros’s sons help manage their family investments. Do they have “real” jobs? I think so.
You’re fighting a losing battle here, dude. Just as you cannot argue someone into liking you, you cannot argue someone into being impressed that you manage your parents’ money.
In addition, I’m both a right-brain and left-brain man, given that I’m both an investment manager and a philosopher/writer.
And I’m the Queen of Denmark.
That’s a unique characteristic; most people aren’t like that. I’ve never been as disappointed and sad about having difficulty about getting a second date as I am with you.
Oy. As if this email wasn’t stalkerish enough already.
I’ve gone out with a lot of women in my life. (FYI, I’m not a serial dater. Sometimes, I’ve only gone out with a woman for one date.)
This last bit I have no trouble believing.
I suggest that we continue to go out and see what happens.
I suspect that Lauren has already played out various scenarios in her head already, and that none of them end well.
Needless to say, I find you less appealing now (given that you haven’t returned my messages) than I did at our first date. However, I would be willing to go out with you again. I’m open minded and flexible and am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. I wish you would give me the benefit of the doubt too.
So now you’re being noble and “open minded” for trying to pressure a woman who wants nothing to do with you into a second date?
If you don’t want to go out again, in my opinion, you would be making a big mistake, perhaps one of the biggest mistakes in your life.
Now you’re just making my skin crawl.
I spent time, effort, and money meeting you for dinner. Getting back to me in response to my messages would have been a reasonable thing for you to do. In addition, you arrived about 30 minutes late for our date. I’m sure you wouldn’t like it if a man showed up thirty minutes late for a first date with you.
Here’s a solution, dude: How about she never goes on another date with you, ever. Then you won’t ever have to worry about her being late ever again.
If you’re concerned that you will hurt my feelings by providing specific information about why you don’t want to go with me again, well, my feeling are already hurt. I’m sad and disappointed about this situation. If you give information, at least I can understand the situation better. I might even learn something that is beneficial.
I hope you find the feedback that the internet has now provided you to be helpful.
If you don’t want to go out again, that I request that you call me and make a sincere apology for leading me on (i.e., giving me mixed signals).
Now we’re back on this again.
In my opinion, you shouldn’t act that way toward a man and then not go out with him again. It’s bad to play with your hair so much and make so much eye contact if you’re not interested in going out with me again.
Damn you, foul strumpet, and your devious hair-playing ways! Google it! GOOGLE IT!!!
I would like to talk to you on the phone.
I think you’ve pretty much guaranteed that this will never, ever happen.
Even if you don’t want to go out again, I would appreciate it if you give me the courtesy of calling me and talking to me. Yes, you might say things that hurt me, but my feelings are already hurt. Sending me an email response (instead of talking on the phone) would better than no response at all, but I think it would be better to talk on the phone. Email communication has too much potential for misinterpretation, etc.
Not much to misinterpret here, Mike. You’ve made it absolutely crystal clear that you’re an undateable creep.
Let me be serious for a moment. Forget about Lauren. Hell, forget about women in general for a while, and work on yourself. Get some therapy; you can afford it. Work through your bitterness, your petulance, your highly unattractive mixture of entitlement and insecurity. Stop being a “Nice Guy” and learn to be genuinely nice.
And don’t ever, ever, ever write another email like this one.
Posted on December 8, 2011, in creepy, evil women, men who should not ever be with women ever, nice guys, threats. Bookmark the permalink. 1,020 Comments.
Explanations are not excuses. You are treating this as partially exusable, which it is not, and it is creepy that you are doing so. Let me give you an example of how we do not speak this way when we are actually explaining things we think are horrendous and inexcusable:
“Hitler used rhetorically tying Jewish people with Communism (partially by using Marx’s ethnic Judaism) as both a way to bring anti-semitism into his anti-communist attacks and as a way to further demonize communists. By emphasizing an association between two stigmatized groups, he further demonized both.”
That doesn’t look like it is excusing Hitler’s actions, though it is explaining what he did.
Would you say something like “Now, the Jewish people and communists didn’t deserve to be holocausted, but one can understand why Hitler would have committed such a heinous crime.”
No, you probably wouldn’t (Bradon wouldn’t, Meller and NWO…okay, they probably would). That looks like excusing or sympathizing with the brutal violence, and would not be okay.
The language and arguments you are using are apologistic ones, and applying them to other contexts makes that damned clear.
Well, Brandon, be that as it may, he’s not talking about something on the level of catching one’s love in flagrante delicto. He’s talking about something on the level of posts made at here at manboobz. He even specifically mentioned MY posts as something that might enflame a man, gentle as a lamb. And, frankly, he really better give details. (Oddly enough, he previously assured me he didn’t think I personally had provoked my abusive spouse… )
Us, right here, commenting on Manboobz. That’s the level of provocation Meller is talking about. You really wanna die on this hill? Even you?
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins. Unless they post something you don’t like on the Internet, then, well, you know what to do.
-MellerJesus
Brandon would totally post something about how the Jews deserved the Holocaust, if he thought it would prove a poorly thought out point. He really is not very bright.
Bostonian: Brandon would totally post something about how the Jews deserved the Holocaust, if he thought it would prove a poorly thought out point.
And then after being smacked verbally around, he would retreat slowly grudgngly rhetorical step by step and explain it was only HIS opinion, and he didn’t MEAN all Jews, only some, and really, why do we keep misunderstanding him, but wow, he has go to now, Ashley is telling him not to talk to those manboobz manhaters!
Then two days later, comes back and forgets he ever said it.
Before I catch up with the thread…
Does Ashley know that if she acts The Wrong Way According To Brandon that you would find it excusable if you beat, rape, or kill her?
no more mr nice guy wrote:
“I have read a lot of blogs and forums of angry former customers of PUAs and
most of them are socially awkward and many admit that they have Asperger’s and
all of them said that learning PUA techniques was a disaster for them and made
them worst.”
Having Asperger’s is not something shameful to “admit”. Many autistic people already spend considerable time and energy trying to appear non-autistic (in fact, “high-functioning autism” is defined as “being an autistic person who is good at pretending to be a non-autistic person”), having internalized the sentiment that it is a shameful condition. I resent your dehumanization of autistic people. Perhaps PUA sites are not good for autistic people, but adult autists have a right to freely choose where they get information. That is not for you to decide.
As for autistic people and PUA techniques: I myself spent a long part of my adult life being very frustrated about being unable to understand the things that are expected of people in dating contexts. Some years ago, I too came across some PUA sites, and read what I could find. It was not a very good idea. The “greek system” of alpha, beta and omega males seemed to me at the time to make a lot of sense – it matched well with my own experiences in the social dynamics of male groups (I have struggled with understanding such things my entire life, and many of my social faux pas situations have derived from not being able to correctly act in accordance to my position in informal pecking orders). So I spent a lot of time being very depressed over being an omega, and how this system proved that my natural station is life was as a lonely freaky outcast. Repetitive, “circular” thought patterns are a common characteristic of autistic thinking, and reading that your natural role in the social dynamic is to be rejected and picked on can trigger intense self-esteem-related issues. I have since concluded that the PUA “greek system”, and their “algorithmic” approach to dating, appears to be an oversimplification. Systems that include humans tend to be too complicated for simple algorithms. I have since decided to abandon my attempts at dating, and am much happier than I was when I was obsessing about being an “omega male”. Thinking those thoughts were one of the low points of my recent life.
I am not sure if “Mike the banker” is autistic. He gives descriptions of several non-verbal cues he noticed. Many autistic people do not notice such things at all, unless they make an active effort of watching for and trying to keep track of them. It is also common that autistic people perceive the actual, physical actions of people, but are clueless about the intent. For example, a non-autistic person can literally look at another person and see “that person is happy” – their brains are able to sub- or unconsciously gauge the emotional or mental states of other people from body language, facial expressions and such. Autistic people generally just see “the edges of that person’s mouth is pointing upwards”, and must consciously try to figure out whether that means a happy smile, a sign of imminent laughter, or a sarcastic grin. It is possible to practice these “checklists” reasonably well, but at least for me, it involves the same kind of deliberate thinking as working on a mathematical problem, not like the much more fluent and automatic process of reading.
“Mike the banker” writes down very specific physical signals, and “textbook” definitions of what they conventionally mean, which is one indicator that he might be on the autistic spectrum. His letter also seems to indicate trouble putting himself in the position of “Lauren”, which is also a common characteristic of autistic people. However, it is not a good idea for laypeople to throw around “armchair diagnoses”; it contributes to the “shame-oriented” view of mental disabilities, and are not generally likely to be correct.
For what it is worth, when I was younger and had been rejected, shamed or otherwise had an experience of social failure, I would often write long letters, actually very similar to the one “Mike the banker” wrote. Then I would read them to myself the next day and throw them away. It helped me process these things. Even if “Mike” is autistic, then he is still acting very entitled, and that is still not all right. Some autists are good people, others are complete bastards, and being on the autism spectrum is not a “get-out-of-trying-to-act-decently-free” card – it just means that the person has to work harder for it, and that there will be more or less frequent miscommunication issues in that person’s interactions with others.
Thanks for that, RocketFrog, especially the last part.
I’m not appreciating the “autistic people are freaks!” turn this conversation took because one of my best friends is Aspie. She would never send anyone a letter like this. Some of the ways the writer is categorizing and analyzing things do indicate that he may be on the spectrum, but in terms of actually sending it to the other person, thus making demands of them? That part isn’t autism, it’s just being an asshole.
Cassandra:
If “Mike” is on the autism spectrum, he may or may not be aware that sending such a letter will in itself be perceived as making demands. He does make a number of requests, such as mentioning that he would like “Lauren” to call him. Having trouble understanding how one’s words and actions are perceived by others is a common problem for autistic people. But since it is a spectrum, some have more trouble with this than others. Personally, I am very poor at it – but on the other hand, I have no problems dealing with abstract thinking, which is otherwise a well-known problem for autists.
Honestly, the kind of things he writes mostly appear entirely reasonable to me. He is just stating a set of facts, and telling her how he feels about a number of things. The way he writes about these things reminds me a lot of my own thoughts about similar situations – which is why I also think it is likely that he is somewhere on the spectrum. It is only through David’s commentary that I can see how those words are actually received by another person (also, I have been told by others that trying to make arguments about such things when one has already been turned down or are currently being ignored will be perceived as being entitled, because many people will tend to interpret it as a kind of passive aggression, as applying pressure). For many people on the autism spectrum, it can be incredibly puzzling and frustrating that stating facts (including one’s feelings) are often assumed by others to have a hidden agenda, where there actually is none (this also works in reverse – autistic people often miss out on “hidden intentions” in things people say that are semantically just statements of fact, but pragmatically are supposed to carry additional information). It is *difficult* to avoid hurting others, or “creeping people out”, for a person who has trouble imagining how other people perceive his/her words and actions.
But that does not mean such a person shouldn’t *try*. I do not know if “Mike” is autistic, or if he is, to which degree he is aware of how his words are likely to be received. The reason I think he seems to feel entitled is that he apparently will not accept that “Lauren” has rejected him, and not being able to accept rejection is a thoroughly unpleasant character trait for any person, autistic or not.
“It is only through David’s commentary that I can see how those words are actually received by another person (also, I have been told by others that trying to make arguments about such things when one has already been turned down or are currently being ignored will be perceived as being entitled, because many people will tend to interpret it as a kind of passive aggression, as applying pressure).”
I think there’s an easier way to understand this. If a person turns you down or rejects you, the reason that it’s not OK to then put forward arguments is that you’re not accepting the fact that they already told you no. The idea to take away is that a rejection is a dead end – there is no point making arguments, because the other person has already made a decision. The reason making arguments in that situation is seen as entitled is that it indicates that you are not willing to accept the other person’s decision, which will tend to make them feel even more negatively towards you than they already did. Does that make more sense?
To bounce off what Cassandra is saying;
“No” is a complete sentence. Arguing with someone’s “no” is violating a clear boundary which is entitled at best and downright frightening at worst. This is one social rule that you can never go wrong with adhering to strictly.
Cassandra:
Yes, it does make sense. But the problem is that some decisions people make are final, and others are tentative. Many decisions that people make are later changed, for example after hearing arguments from another perspective. It can be very difficult to tell the difference – in fact, I have observed that many “normal” people also have trouble with this. There are apparently some unspoken cultural conventions for which decisions should be treated as final and which should be treated as tentative, and many autistic people have difficulty with these.
“Mike” appears to treat at least “Lauren’s” decision to not want to date him as a tentative decision. I can understand that this might make “Lauren” feel that he is not respecting her decision, if it is, for her, a final decision. David writes:
“You cannot argue someone into a second date! That’s not how it works.”
If “Mike” is autistic (and we don’t know if he is), he may not understand that that’s not how it works. There are many other situations where people routinely argue their case, and the other person changes his or her mind. Why does dating not work that way? It is precisely this kind of social nuance – which situations call for arguments, and which don’t – that often cause difficulty for some autists. Personally, I have memorized a checklist (and “anything related to love or sex” is in the “don’t argue; all decisions are to be treated as final” category), but I honestly can’t see anything remotely resembling a real system to it. So sometimes I too can come across as either a complete pushover (when treating a tentative decision as final) or as an insensitive asshole (when treating a final decision as tentative).
Shora:
Perhaps I have misunderstood, but from the OP, it seems that “Mike” never got a direct “no”, but was ignored.
“Yes, it does make sense. But the problem is that some decisions people make are final, and others are tentative. Many decisions that people make are later changed, for example after hearing arguments from another perspective. It can be very difficult to tell the difference – in fact, I have observed that many “normal” people also have trouble with this. There are apparently some unspoken cultural conventions for which decisions should be treated as final and which should be treated as tentative, and many autistic people have difficulty with these.”
Decisions about whether or not a person wants to date someone, is attracted to someone, etc., are almost always final. Attraction isn’t like a political belief – it’s not responsive to persuasive arguments about why you should in fact find the person attractive. It just doesn’t work that way.
Think about it from your own perspective. If you met a woman and thought she was physically unattractive, and you disliked her personality, would you be responsive to arguments from her about why you should find her physically attractive, or like her more? Attraction just isn’t in the category of things that people change their mind about as a result of being argued with.
In a dating context, being consistently ignored is in effect a direct no.
Cassandra: My point is that if it is correct, as several other posters have speculated, that “Mike” is autistic, then he may not be aware that being ignored should be considered equivalent to a direct “no”.
Back when I was still dating (and considerably younger), I made a real fool of myself on one occasion – badly – before I discovered that particular rule. When I found out how I had been perceived, and how I had made her feel, I was horrified and frankly ashamed.
Lest it be forgotten: I am not defending “Mike”‘s letter. It is just that several posters have remarked that it “screams aspie”, and if he *is* in fact autistic, then it is *possible* that he doesn’t understand that he is coming across as an entitled asshole.
This does not *excuse* acting poorly, but it may *explain* acting poorly.
The asshole part is the bit where he berates her about how she’ll really be missing out if she rejects him, and repeatedly demands apologies, though, not the part where he doesn’t understand that she has already effectively rejected him.
The next time that you feminists crybaby about rape, spousal abuse, domestic violence, or any other instance of hostility and brutality expressed against women, do the men of this world a favor, and just look over some of your posts right here on manboobz.com!
Even if it IS a man who commits the violent assault, even if HE is responsible for the attack (or is it a counterattack?) against the feminist, and even if he, and NOBODY ELSE is held to blame, I think that some of the posts here, showing how HATEFUL feminists can be, will remind youall of something!
What hate? o_O I see no hate from the non-troll posters here… xD Show me the hate Meller xD
You said “JUST LOOK AT YOUR POSTS” but I have… xD And so have my friends… and others I’ve asked… nobody sees hate o_O
What hate? o: Since YOU see hate, you wouldn’t mind quoting some here so we know what you consider “hate” and which quotes you believe are understandable if they “provoke” a violent response? :D
Hey Mellertron…
did my mom provoke my dad’s abuse? If so, how? :o
You’re the great knower of such things after all… so I’m curious to hear you explain :3
I agree about the requests for apologies.
For me, the passage I found problematic was mainly this: “If you’re not interested in going out again, then I would have preferred if you hadn’t given those mixed signals.”
This is unreasonable. No matter what she “signalled” during their date, her decision to not see him again might not have been made yet at that point, whereas he seems to assume that she was deliberately leading him on, which he has no evidence to support. And if he *is* an aspie (at least if he is a diagnosed one), he should pay extra attention to the fact that he is likely to get “signals” wrong (the ones he notices at all), and avoid putting too much faith in his interpretation of them.
Also: “If you don’t want to go out again, in my opinion, you would be making a big mistake, perhaps one of the biggest mistakes in your life.”
Although he makes sure to qualify that this is an opinion, I do not think he has any right to make that judgment. Also, implying that opting out of his company is a life-changing mistake implies a quite unhealthy ego.
I did not, in general, perceive him as berating or accusatory, though.
Hi, RocketFrog. I have Asperger’s.
While this observation accords with the letter in isolation, in context is appears that this is not the first time that this person has done this.
http://www.theluxuryspot.com/2011/12/08/theres-more-to-the-break-up-email-guy/
If it’s the same guy in both situations, this is a pattern with him. And the last time, the recipient of his letters called the police. He has received information relating to his actions, in the past, and it has not modified his behavior in the present. It’s not just that he’s an Aspie, “Mike” is also a sonofabitch.
It sounded like a threat to me.
“What hate? o: Since YOU see hate, you wouldn’t mind quoting some here so we know what you consider “hate” and which quotes you believe are understandable if they “provoke” a violent response? ”
Seriously. You mentioned me by name. Where’s my hate and bitterness?
By making the claim that you can understand the rationale and motivation behind the rape, feminists say you are “apologizing” for the rapist. This is not the case with most men saying they can “get why he did it”. We aren’t “apologizing” for it, we just can see why he MIGHT of committed the crime.
I have a question Mellertron.. do you believe the rationale and motivation behind rape should affect the investigation and judicial process and sentencing, and if so how? :3
VoIP: OK; I was not aware that he had sent similar letters before. Then he *should* have found out by now that they scare and disturb the recipients, and then he is an asshole for still sending them. Particularly if the police has been involved.
My comments were only about this particular one, I was not aware that there was a pattern.
I am not sure I see the threat in that paragraph I quoted.
“The biggest mistake of your life” Is a very threatening phrase, especially when combined with a very low-stakes choice (to go out with a guy again or not). Pretty much what it translates to is “I’ll make it the biggest mistake of your life through harrasment and/or violence”
@CassandraSays:
What exactly might this range be?
Actually, I daresay that “Mike” is apocryphal. You and RocketFrog may not realize this, but this e-mail and ALL variations of it are fake. Someone fabricated this e-mail and posted it on multiple sites and by now it has pretty much gone viral and is all over the internets. As for me, I have asperger syndrome(diagnosed some 20 years ago)and that e-mail actually gave me a good laugh. :-p
As we all know Monsieur sans Nom does not, if fact, have Aspergers, and is just fabricating this across multiple threads.
I think of lot of Mike’s stuff could come from someone who’s got Asperger’s/is autistic, but it could just as easily come from someone who bought into the whole PUA/”Game” bullshit. A lot of what PUA/Game stuff seems to teach is almost how to act like an autistic person might, but to do so purposefully and maliciously; pick out certain signals and refuse to admit that their interpretation is not set in stone and blame the woman for “signaling wrong”, don’t put yourself in the woman’s shoes because you don’t give a shit about her feelings, persist past her “no” not because you don’t understand her boundaries but because you are trying to break them down as a calculated plan.
So it’s possible that Mike is genuinely unclear on why his approach is creepy and inappropriate, and genuinely thinks the letter will help, but it’s definitely just as likely that he is purposefully ignoring the input his brain is giving him (“twirling hair doesn’t mean she has to like you, silence probably means no, this letter might creep her out”) and is barging through his social instincts because he thinks deliberately ignoring those social rules will get him what he wants. If he truly knows better and is doing it anyways, that’s assholish and manipulative.
To the best of my knowledge, Brandon is not a holocaust apologist or a holocaust denier (unlike Meller and NWO), and I did not intend my use of holocaust analogies to paint him as such (I did try to make that clear). Just wanted to reiterate that, because as little as I like Brandon, I don’t think he has engaged in behavior to warrant that particular allegation.
Moving on,
Yeah though, I am an aspie too (I am high verbal and always have been, so even though some of my childhood behaviors were often more typical of “classic” autism, that’s the conclusion). I am actually better with social behaviors on a large theory scale, like a biologist observing a different species, than I am with subtle cues. I know that lots of people can get a lot from eyebrows (and apparantly, they can guess without even the eyebrow codes from the eye muscles? I don’t know any of those codes, I’ve only gotten better at eyebrow ones in the past few years), but I have to learn everything from scratch, it isn’t instinctive, though after long enough, I can make it a habit (there are certain coded phrases I respond “properly” to out of habit, I use a certain voice tone out of habit, etc.). I’m better with vocal cues than body language or facial cues, and slightly better at large body language (set of shoulders) than at small body language (hand motions) and facial cues, but I am actually very good at large scale social patterns and certain types of coded language. And sometimes I notice things that others do instinctively but don’t notice (I have yet to meet a neurotypical person who was not surprised to learn that NT people sync up when they take steps in groups, watch them, unless someone has “fallen behind”, they take steps at the same time).
“Entitled asshole” and aspie aren’t mutually exclusive, but they don’t follow from each other either. And, as a loud and not shy aspie who likes to argue and can at times (and sometimes does) not notice when I am making others uncomfortable, I don’t in fact actually get pegged as an aspie for it too often. I’m highly intellectual and aggressive, and have never actually had someone make that excuse for me. Of course, I’m not a cis hetero man, so people don’t go out of their way to make excuses for me if I were to act like an asshole in romantic situations…
u mad?
This is almost certainly bullshit.
In all fairness, it could also just be him having a huge ego and really thinking that not having him in her life would be a devastating loss. But I can also easily read it as a threat, too — it’s a bit like saying “I’ll make this second date an offer she can’t refuse*!” Like, technically maybe that just means it is such a super awesome offer that there’s no way she’d refuse, but more commonly it’s a threat that means if she doesn’t take the offer he’ll do something terrible to her. :p
*read this in a old-timey gangster voice for the full effect. ;D
monsieur noname – ” I have asperger syndrome(diagnosed some 20 years ago) – You would have been a VERY early diagnosis (since it was only added to the DSM-IV in 1994. ) . Can you elaborate? I’m curious as to how you were helped so long ago. Most of us had to bump around the mental health system for a long time before we found the information to make sense of our symptoms.
Monsieur sans Nom, totally busted! Not just a faker, but a dumb one.
OK, that’s funny. He was diagnosed and immediately received treatment the very first year in which the syndrome was officially recognised, you guys. He is Patient Zero.
Meanwhile my bestie was definitely being investigated as possibly autistic as a small child, but didn’t get a real diagnosis till her teens, even with a social worker for a mother. She’s 25.
@zhinxy, yeah, people noticed I was…off…as a kid, but no one even suggested aspergers until I was an adult (my older sister watched a documentary and told me that she had seen “a thing on TV about people like you”). And I am relatively young (22) and even had symptoms in early childhood which, minus the high verbal/early reader stuff, would have fit a classic autism diagnosis (I refused to be held as early as 18 months, self injured by rocking and banging my head on the wall, sensitivity to light and certain sounds, triggers with a number of other sensory things, etc.) I still occasionally have times when I get sensory overload and break down and spend several days sitting in a dimly lit space only eating toast and drinking milk or water. Granted, I grew up in a poor rural area and had a mother who was paranoid about ADD and other mental health diagnoses in children, but it’s not too hard to slip through the cracks with aspergers or high functioning autism even now.
I have a lot of “classic autism” too, despite being nearly hyperlexic as a kid which threw everybody off… I can be extremely good at masking though, like a lot of girl aspies I studied the hell out of drama and can keep a persona going like crazy when I’m doing well… (Which, when you add the PSTD is… not, for a while now, though I think it’s getting better) I studied about as many art expression books and drama class videos as I could without even a clue that my need to try and understand what the hell was with these facial expression thingys would have made me autistic for YEARS. I got diagnosed and then undiagnosed with ADD about jillion times. Confession… actually just did the hurt yourself headbanging thing today. It was a good run without doing it though. Heh. Ah, the life of functioning highly…
I read a New York Times Magazine article about Asperger’s, showed it to my mother, and she immediately started crying. I had no idea why, at first. It was my sophomore year in college, 2002.
This one.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20000610/msgs/37688.html
And it was either 2001 or 2002, I don’t remember.
LOL @ Butthurt Bostonian
NO U!
Why ride the French name when you’re only language is lesser troll?
*your
very sick
This troll tastes stale, it’s showing no creativity or imagination. Are you sure it hasn’t been chewed up and regurgitated before? David, an IP address check please, would be useful. Over on the current thread it has been challenged to shave its nethers to demonstrate that it isn’t a hypocritical turd displaying sexist double standards and has fallen flat on the job, so putting it out of its misery would probably be the humane course of action at this stage.
@Bagelsan,
I think there’s something to your analysis, but you are missing something. PUA orthodoxy also says that you should “next” (i.e. abort your seduction and find someone else) quickly if you get no response, and most certainly never to “blame women” or send long emails like the one in the OP, as such behaviors are clearly “displays of low value”. The idea is that “you are the prize”, and long, passive-aggressive argumentation works counter to that. You don’t argue people into accepting a gift[1], you give it to someone else who appreciates it. If you need to argue, the gift clearly has no worth to the intended recipient, and that thought is toxic to game.
There is an obvious trade-off — the PUA needs to invest himself, but not too much, and there is some room for interpretation, but the behavior in the OP is actually exactly what pick up strongly argues against. If the guy really thinks that he is doing something ‘PUA approved’, he’s basing it on one-and-a-half posts by an idiot like Roissy, at most.
@Voip: My mother sent me the Newsweek article about asperger’s with an OMG THIS IS YOU! (I’m 56). My partner read it, and said, OMG yes. I got the book the article referenced, and Entwife and I both read it, and well, yeah, it seems likely. I’ve not had the time to track down a specialist and work with them–though I’ve heard that one of the Psychology profs on campus has the diagnostic tests — but I mean to someday. I have learned over the past few decades to mimic some behaviors that I could never see the point of when young (I would just walk up to somebody and start talking about what we’d last been talking about–I could remember it? why waste time with “hello how are you”). But even so–I was happy to move online for teaching because I had problems with classes–especially the “look at them and know they’ve learned X” (I have had lots of discussions with colleagues who dislike online or the idea of online teaching, and say that “I can’t tell if they’ve learned something unless I see their faces.” Since I could never see it, I prefer to look at their work. Maybe next spring I can find out the diagnostic dude’s name and track him down…
Okay, here is a challenge: Can anyone think of ANY personality flaw or idiosyncrasy that’s not associated with SOME medical pathology that can’t be slapped on it? I sure can’t. I mean, autism is pretty much a catch-all. A minority, I suppose, are covered by paranoid schizophrenia. No, seriously, think about:
Like to write? Why, you’ve got hypergraphia, which is associated with a number of mental disorders.
Have fewer than a dozen best friends? Don’t like to “mingle” at parties? Autism, clearly.
Enjoy Dylan Thomas’ poetry? No one can understand that shit, so: autism.
Really smart and interested in intellectual subjects from a young age? Autism.
Don’t care for small talk? Autism.
Really verbose? Autism.
Think everyone is beneath you? Autism.
Really good at taking tests? Autism.
Really bad at taking tests? Autism.
Really, the list is endless. What I don’t understand is the reason for this powerful desire in our society to medicalize so much of human behavior and experience.
Ah, yes, now it is being discussed that I might be a Holocaust denier and apologist. For some strange reason I find that kind of hard to believe…since I have Jewish family members (e.g my own grandmother). Ya…A Jewish girl and an Irish catholic guy as grandparents. I also have Jewish cousins and a few Jewish in laws.
So ya…not a holocaust apologist.
Also, only had time to skim over the comments, but someone made a Hitler comparison to a single rapist. Ya, Hitler is in his own separate group that only includes him and the head Nazi’s. So…bad comparison.
The only one butthurt is Monsieur sans Nom. I just thought it was funny to point out the obvious. I notice no response to the ones who verified the extreme unlikeliness of the diagnosis.
Brandon, you could write an encyclopedia sized book about how not to answer direct questions.
Me:
Caraz:
Bee:
Brandon: No one said you were a holocaust denier/apologist. They compared those who are to you. You are a rape/abuse apologist.
One who refuses to admit to his own words (in multiple instances), and won’t answer simple questions.
So the evidence of thousands of your words say it’s cupidity, stupidity, or trepidity.
Pony up, or take your pick: those are the options.
Actually I daresay that NamelessDudeBro is talking out his ass. You may not realise it RocketFrog but he pretends to know things he doesn’t, and makes up things like the emails being fake. Pretending that someone fabricated these e-mails, as well as his having personal knowledge of various other things; which he posts to manboobz to that he can have a good laughing at.
@Kyrie: I think it is depends on the situation. When one willingly does something that is provoking, one can not go back and say “well, I didn’t do anything!”
If a man is burning an American flag during a July 4 parade, I doubt most people would feel sympathetic towards him if a crowd of spectators attacked him. It would clearly be a case of “if you didn’t want to get attacked, you probably shouldn’t be waving a burning flag around on the Fourth of July”
The same if a white man was walking around Harlem screaming the N-word. Few people would have sympathy towards him. By behaving that way, he is bringing it on himself since if he wasn’t screaming the N-word he would have a much lower chance of being attacked. The key variable is him being racist vs just walking around Harlem.
Rape is more complicated since the variables are often subtle or unknown. I think my view is one that a lot of men share, in that the rapist is 100% at fault for committing the crime, but that women can change certain behavior to further minimize the risk of becoming a victim again.
I find it hard to believe that women have no options in preventing rape. Clothing, owning a gun, moving to safer cities, etc… I am not saying what will work and what wouldn’t, just that there has to be something besides feminists chanting “men don’t rape”.
Like a rapist actually cares about your slogan. Saying that “men are the only ones that can prevent rape” is as absurd as “gun laws keep guns out of the hands of criminals (the same group of people that don’t give a shit about laws)”. (FYI: The cities with the most restrictive gun control have more gun crimes per capita (e.g Dallas vs Chicago))
“I find it hard to believe that women have no options in preventing rape. Clothing, owning a gun, moving to safer cities, etc… I am not saying what will work and what wouldn’t…
Of course! Why would you have compassion or introspection, or even the inkling of anyone else having those things?
Brandon, you realize you just compared hypothetical examples of people purposefully inciting anger and hatred to…women being women in public, right?
@Caraz: And you’ll notice that all his hypothetics seem to be men–i.e. man burning flag, white man in Harlem; recently if a man came home and found his wife cheating on him……not that I want him using hyypotheticals with women, but it’s telling that he defaults to MEN.
Thing is, Brandon, this actually isn’t possible:
Brandon: @Kyrie: I think it is depends on the situation. When one willingly does something that is provoking, one can not go back and say “well, I didn’t do anything!”
What discussions of feminism are legitimately provoking of violence.
Brandon: Rape is more complicated since the variables are often subtle or unknown. I think my view is one that a lot of men share, in that the rapist is 100% at fault for committing the crime, but that women can change certain behavior to further minimize the risk of becoming a victim again.
I find it hard to believe that women have no options in preventing rape. Clothing, owning a gun, moving to safer cities, etc… I am not saying what will work and what wouldn’t, just that there has to be something besides feminists chanting “men don’t rape”.
Right… you don’t know what will work, so something (other than rape not being at all excusable, and never saying, “She asked for it by not doing enough to prevent it), must. Women are therefore required to do these, unknown; and apparently unknowable things, but if they don’t they are to blame.
After all, waling around in a dress some man finds so attractive he can’t help but rape a woman is just like a man walking around screaming racial epithets in a minority neighborhood.
She chose to wear that dress, and some dude found it sexy, totes her fault.
@Caraz: Actually anything that is attention grabbing, controversial or provocative will do. It could be a racist screaming hateful slurs or noticing that 200K Lamborghini driving by you.
@Bostonian: Who says I don’t show compassion for rape victims? I will be the first to jump on the “throw his ass in jail so he can’t hurt another person” bandwagon.
@amandajane: Ya, I saw that a while ago. She takes a 10 second joke (the whole “wouldn’t it be awesome/cool/etc… if I could detach my vagina so men wouldn’t bother me” gag). and drags it on for 5 minutes. The first minute was funny…the rest sucked.
“I find it hard to believe that women have no options in preventing rape. Clothing, owning a gun, moving to safer cities, etc… I am not saying what will work and what wouldn’t, just that there has to be something besides feminists chanting ‘men don’t rape’.”
Brandon, do you own a gun? Do you never go outside without wearing it? How would you feel about your life if you felt the same need to keep it on you that a woman would?
Rapists don’t give a shit what you’re wearing. People have been raped in their PJs, young children have been raped, women in burquas have been raped.
Sure, I’ll just move to a totally different city–how much money I currently make, my job in THIS city, and all the other factors involved don’t matter! I really shouldn’t just be tempting rapists by living in “unsafe city” in the first place!
That’s a clear answer like we like them!
“Clothing, owning a gun, moving to safer cities, etc…”
* Clothing: someday, I’d like to see the statistic that say that the chance of getting raped increase with the quantity of skin visible.
* owning a gun: didn’t Pecunium talked about it a little while ago? If I’m not mistaking, it was a very informed piece basically saying “it’s not as easy as it sound, it requires loads of training and constant paranoia”. Also, not a possibility at all for under-aged.
* moving out: so, basically, all the women should move to the same town? (the one with the lowest danger) Sure, that’s sound like a great solution. Also, being away from your family and friends doesn’t seem like the safest thing to me.
And what about men? They’re at more risk to be assaulted I believe, so should they all follow the same rules? (minus number 1)
That means we either end up with only one city in the world, or maybe one for each gender.
What about the victims that were raped by a member of their family, or a boyfriend or spouse, do you really think their clothes have anything to do with the problem?
If you were a woman, would you be ready to never dress sexy (and if yo ask Meller what that means, you’ll realize “not sexy by anyone’s critter” is very hard to find) to always have a gun ready to be used in the minute, whether you’re with your family, your girlfriend, at work or wherever and to choose the place you live in based on rape stats?
Plus, obviously, what Caraz said.
And the same things that I asked Meller, do you thing you can upset or provoke a man enough to make him a rapist? And does anything that was said here would do the job, as Meller implied?
Children are raped.
Women in their 80s and 90s are raped.
Women who have disabilities are raped.
The majority of rapes are done by partners, spouses, or others that the women know; stranger rape in dark alleys by CERTIFIEDTHUGRAPISTS are relatively small percentage of rapes.
Anyone who says that there are precautions women ought to take to “prevent” rape is a rape apologist
The only common denominator in a rape is the presence of a rapist.
Any man OR woman who comes onto a site and lectures women on how to prevent rape deserves nothing but mocking.
Obligatory disclaimer: yes, men are raped. Yes, the same principles apply.
Oh, wow, Brandon is telling us what’s funny now! Should I be taking notes?
I was raped when I was 5. I was wearing pants and a t-shirt at the time. My rapist was my babysitter. We lived in a safe, suburban middle class neighborhood with low crime in general.
What did I do to provoke it? How could I have prevented my rape?
How many of us *knew* Brandon was gonna go here? He isn’t talking about the Holocaust, but he seems to have nicely proved the point that he’ll say anything at all if he thinks it’ll help some poorly-thought-out argument.
I don’t think I’d use the word, paranoia about carrying a weapon, but a much more constant attention to what’s going on, with more time spent assessing threats.
But this isn’t about rape. It’s about Meller saying women who are uppity, and talk about being treated as equals and saying men ought not be allowed to treat them as property might be attacked, and that this is perfectly understandable.
And it’s about Brandon agreeing with that, and saying that if such people are attacked they brought it on themselves by not taking the right sorts of preventative measures.
Which would be, you know, shutting up and treating men with the respect they “deserve”.
Amused: I’m not sure that the issues around asperger’s autism are always medicalization or pathologizing: IF there’s “omg drug them” then that’s a concern (the US is way too fond of slapping drugs into people).
However, the idea that the human brain has a lot of quirks and we’re only able to talk about them now is one that is interesting–even with potential for abuse. And i’m not sure we’re just talking about ‘personality flaws’ or ‘quirks’ as such.
And you’ll get my anti-depressant away from me only if you drag it out of my cold dead hands, and even then ZombieIthiliana might come after you.