How to creep out the entire internet, lovelorn banker edition
Try dressing as a nun. Then maybe he'll go away.
Dating can be tough. It can be especially tough if your personality is a mixture of petulance and insecurity. And even tougher if you think you can argue someone who’s not interested in you into a second date with an angry, accusatory, sometimes hilarious, sometimes deeply unsettling 1600-word email. And no, I’m not speaking hypothetically here.
The email in question, written by a young investment banker named Mike to an unfortunate woman named Lauren after one less-than-great date, was posted on Reddit a couple of days ago, and has already gotten a lot of internetty attention, but some of you may not have seen it, so I thought I’d give it a little fisking anyway. Settle in; it’s going to be a long and bumpy ride. (Note: What follows below is most of the email; I’ve cut out a few passages here and there.)
Hi Lauren,
I’m disappointed in you. I’m disappointed that I haven’t gotten a response to my voicemail and text messages.
Well, we’re off to a not-so-good start. Perhaps she is, as they say, just not that into you?
FYI, I suggest that you keep in mind that emails sound more impersonal, harsher, and are easier to misinterpret than in-person or phone communication. After all, people can’t see someone’s body language or tone of voice in an email. I’m not trying to be harsh, patronizing, or insulting in this email. I’m honest and direct by nature, and I’m going to be that way in this email.
Gosh, I wonder why Lauren didn’t get back to him.
By the way, I did a google search, so that’s how I came across your email.
Google-stalking – always a nice touch. There’s no better way to charm a nice lady than by tracking down her personal information online.
I assume that you no longer want to go out with me. (If you do want to go out with me, then you should let me know.) I suggest that you make a sincere apology to me for giving me mixed signals. I feel led on by you.
Uh, what? She’s ignoring you, dude. She doesn’t want to go out with you. Seems to me she’s sending you a pretty unmixed message here.
Should she have responded to your voicemail and/or texts? In an ideal world, perhaps, but she may have sensed that you’d react precisely how you’re reacting now, and didn’t want to have anything more to do with your creepy, entitled bullshit.
And now Mike the banker makes his, er, “case” for why she should go on a second date with him:
Things that happened during our date include, but are not limited to, the following:
-You played with your hair a lot. A woman playing with her hair is a common sign of flirtation. You can even do a google search on it. When a woman plays with her hair, she is preening. I’ve never had a date where a woman played with her hair as much as you did. In addition, it didn’t look like you were playing with your hair out of nervousness.
You were flirting!! Hair-twirling = sex! If you don’t realize it you can google search it!!!
-We had lots of eye contact during our date. On a per-minute basis, I’ve never had as much eye contact during a date as I did with you.
Eye contact is an Indicator of Interest. IOI! IOI! If you didn’t want to bear my children why did you look at me, with your eyes????
-You said, “It was nice to meet you.” at the end of our date. A woman could say this statement as a way to show that she isn’t interested in seeing a man again or she could mean what she said–that it was nice to meet you. The statement, by itself, is inconclusive.
Well, not really. This is what people say to be polite at the end of a disappointing date, when they don’t want to see you again. If she wanted to see you again, she would have said something about making plans for a second date.
-We had a nice conversation over dinner. I don’t think I’m being delusional in saying this statement.
We had a conversation! You did not flee in horror! Therefore you must have my babies!!!
In my opinion, leading someone on (i.e., giving mixed signals) is impolite and immature. It’s bad to do that.
And sending someone who clearly wants nothing to do with you a long, creepy, accusatory tirade is polite?
Normally, I would not be asking for information if a woman and I don’t go out again after a first date. However, in our case, I’m curious because I think our date went well and that there is a lot of potential for a serious relationship.
Dude, you do understand that she has to actually like you too in order for there to be a relationship?
I think we should go out on a second date. In my opinion, our first date was good enough to lead to a second date.
You cannot argue someone into a second date! That’s not how it works.
Why am I writing you? Well, hopefully, we will go out again. Even if we don’t, I gain utility from expressing my thoughts to you.
Gain utility? Really? DATING IS NOT MICROECONOMICS!
In addition, even if you don’t want to go out again, I would like to get feedback as to why you wouldn’t want to go again. Normally, I wouldn’t ask a woman for this type of feedback after a first date, but this is an exception given I think we have a lot of potential.
Well, banker dude. You’re getting some feedback now. All over the internet.
If you don’t want to go again, then apparently you didn’t think our first date was good enough to lead to a second date. Dating or a relationship is not a Hollywood movie. It’s good to keep that in mind. In general, I thought the date went well and was expecting that we would go out on a second date.
So your argument is that she should go out with you, even though she doesn’t want to go out with you, because life isn’t perfect and you’re probably the best she really deserves?
Way to sell yourself, dude.
If you’re not interested in going out again, then I would have preferred if you hadn’t given those mixed signals. I feel led on.
Well, she’s not really responsible for you thinking that every woman who twirls her hair in your presence wants to have your babies.
We have a number of things in common.
Oh dear, sounds like we’ve got another “logical” argument coming up here.
I’ll name a few things: First, we’ve both very intelligent. Second, we both like classical music so much that we go to classical music performances by ourselves. In fact, the number one interest that I would want to have in common with a woman with whom I’m in a relationship is a liking of classical music. I wouldn’t be seriously involved with a woman if she didn’t like classical music. You said that you’re planning to go the NY Philharmonic more often in the future. As I said, I go to the NY Philharmonic often. You’re very busy. It would be very convenient for you to date me because we have the same interests. We already go to classical music performances by ourselves. If we go to classical music performances together, it wouldn’t take any significant additional time on your part.
Um, what?
I have no clever remark to make here, other than that Lauren is probably going to have to avoid going to the Philharmonic ever again, on the off chance she might run into banker Mike.
According to the internet, you’re 33 or 32, so, at least from my point of view, we’re a good match in terms of age.
YOU ARE RIGHT AGE. INTERNET SAYS SO. THEREFORE YOU MUST DATE ME.
I could name more things that we have in common, but I’ll stop here. I don’t understand why you apparently don’t want to go out with me again. We have numerous things in common.
Also, you both require oxygen to live. Lauren, can’t you see that you and banker Mike are soulmates?
I assume that you find me physically attractive. If you didn’t find me physically attractive, then it would have been irrational for you to go out with me in the first place. After all, our first date was not a blind date. You already knew what I looked like before our date.
Banker Mike: You said you wanted feedback. Here is some feedback. She was apparently not horrified by your physical appearance. It may be your horrible personality that needs some work.
Perhaps, you’re unimpressed that I manage my family’s investments and my own investments. Perhaps, you don’t think I have a “real” job. Well, I’ve done very well as an investment manager. I’ve made my parents several millions of dollars. That’s real money. That’s not monopoly money. In my opinion, if I make real money, it’s a real job. Donald Trump’s children work for his company. Do they have “real” jobs? I think so. George Soros’s sons help manage their family investments. Do they have “real” jobs? I think so.
You’re fighting a losing battle here, dude. Just as you cannot argue someone into liking you, you cannot argue someone into being impressed that you manage your parents’ money.
In addition, I’m both a right-brain and left-brain man, given that I’m both an investment manager and a philosopher/writer.
And I’m the Queen of Denmark.
That’s a unique characteristic; most people aren’t like that. I’ve never been as disappointed and sad about having difficulty about getting a second date as I am with you.
Oy. As if this email wasn’t stalkerish enough already.
I’ve gone out with a lot of women in my life. (FYI, I’m not a serial dater. Sometimes, I’ve only gone out with a woman for one date.)
This last bit I have no trouble believing.
I suggest that we continue to go out and see what happens.
I suspect that Lauren has already played out various scenarios in her head already, and that none of them end well.
Needless to say, I find you less appealing now (given that you haven’t returned my messages) than I did at our first date. However, I would be willing to go out with you again. I’m open minded and flexible and am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. I wish you would give me the benefit of the doubt too.
So now you’re being noble and “open minded” for trying to pressure a woman who wants nothing to do with you into a second date?
If you don’t want to go out again, in my opinion, you would be making a big mistake, perhaps one of the biggest mistakes in your life.
Now you’re just making my skin crawl.
I spent time, effort, and money meeting you for dinner. Getting back to me in response to my messages would have been a reasonable thing for you to do. In addition, you arrived about 30 minutes late for our date. I’m sure you wouldn’t like it if a man showed up thirty minutes late for a first date with you.
Here’s a solution, dude: How about she never goes on another date with you, ever. Then you won’t ever have to worry about her being late ever again.
If you’re concerned that you will hurt my feelings by providing specific information about why you don’t want to go with me again, well, my feeling are already hurt. I’m sad and disappointed about this situation. If you give information, at least I can understand the situation better. I might even learn something that is beneficial.
I hope you find the feedback that the internet has now provided you to be helpful.
If you don’t want to go out again, that I request that you call me and make a sincere apology for leading me on (i.e., giving me mixed signals).
Now we’re back on this again.
In my opinion, you shouldn’t act that way toward a man and then not go out with him again. It’s bad to play with your hair so much and make so much eye contact if you’re not interested in going out with me again.
Damn you, foul strumpet, and your devious hair-playing ways! Google it! GOOGLE IT!!!
I would like to talk to you on the phone.
I think you’ve pretty much guaranteed that this will never, ever happen.
Even if you don’t want to go out again, I would appreciate it if you give me the courtesy of calling me and talking to me. Yes, you might say things that hurt me, but my feelings are already hurt. Sending me an email response (instead of talking on the phone) would better than no response at all, but I think it would be better to talk on the phone. Email communication has too much potential for misinterpretation, etc.
Not much to misinterpret here, Mike. You’ve made it absolutely crystal clear that you’re an undateable creep.
Let me be serious for a moment. Forget about Lauren. Hell, forget about women in general for a while, and work on yourself. Get some therapy; you can afford it. Work through your bitterness, your petulance, your highly unattractive mixture of entitlement and insecurity. Stop being a “Nice Guy” and learn to be genuinely nice.
And don’t ever, ever, ever write another email like this one.
Posted on December 8, 2011, in creepy, evil women, men who should not ever be with women ever, nice guys, threats. Bookmark the permalink. 1,020 Comments.
Also, at least 3 of those guys are bi, so there goes Developers’ theory.
I thought it was Mister No Name who came up with that one.
First of all, I can’t BELIEVE that for those of you who bothered to look at the entire email in the like provided by manboobz failed to realize that it is just SO TOTALLY FAKE!!!!
I had a good laugh at it, and an even better laugh at those who actually took it srsly and believed it to be genuine. =P I wouldn’t be surprised if it turned out that “Lauren” is actually a d00d IRL.
Speak of the Devil.
All of our trolls are starting to blur together into one big congealed mass of sexist bullshit.
I appreciate how relatively-mellow MRAL’s comments are, in light of how hard we’ve been on him in this thread. He actually does seem to have developed some skills in calming himself down.
I don’t think the “creep is offensive” thing is gonna happen, though. “Creep” means “person who sets off your Gift of Fear danger alarms” and it’s a useful concept, not a slur against men.
You summoned him, Dracula. Can’t you banish him?
I just watched Wryd Sisters so I’m thinking old soap flakes and a ladle.
MRAL:
Women (just like men) have sexual preferences. Deal with it.
We do not have to date people we find a. unattractive b. offensive c. who we find boring or d. whatever other criteria we choose.
In other news: that rant was really unbalanced. There really is no need to froth at the mouth that way.
I’m trying, but I think I toyed with forces I can’t control.
Dracula, call him Monsieur avec Merde pour Cerveaux next time and see if it has the same devilish effect.
D’accord.
I’ve been on a fair few first dates, yet rarely get asked on a 2nd date. Why? Well I don’t look like Angelina Jolie (lol), but mostly because I’m socially awkward and come across better online than in person.
If someone is not interested in me enough to ask me on a 2nd date, there is nothing I can do about it. Plus I would prefer to date someone who likes me than someone who felt sorry for me . It’s just a waste of time otherwise.
@MRAL
When the men who use the words slut, whore, cunt, bitch and slag to insult women (often when women refuse to go out with them might I add) I’ll consider stopping the use of the word creep.
On second thought, no. No I wont. Because it’s not a GENDERED INSULT you fuckwit.
So you think I’m “trolling” by questioning the authenticity of this e-mail? Well, sorry to spoil your fun, kids! If you can prove me wrong I’ll be duly impressed.
Oh goodness. I am a compulsive hair twirler. Done it since I was a little kid. The only things that stop me are up-dos and cutting it all off. I have to try hard NOT to do it. (insert owly whining about those slutty 7-year-olds, since apparently I was flirting with everyone…)
I also hate eye contact. Which is also flirting. Yup. Too much eye contact? She must be interested. Looks away? She must be interested. There is no way to win. Mundane things become obvious flirting, but less obvious stuff becomes shy, hard to get sorta behavior.
I’ve dealt with these kinds before. Except I never went on dates with them first. They just sorta … appeared.
Not feeling too bad about using a word “loaded with hate and shame” to describe people who can’t take no for an answer, or make me feel unsafe. I would, if it was a word associated with a trait that people can’t change. Would you have a better term for a middle-aged man who is following a teen girl around, touching her without permission, and ignoring her requests that he leave her alone?
Going back a ways, but fuck yes to this:
The thing is, as much as being rejected hurts, being dumped hurts a lot more.
I can attest from personal experience that losing a relationship with someone you’re very much in love with really puts being told “no” by an acquaintance in perspective.
“Cr**p” is absolutely a gendered insult, are you kidding me?
Well, Viscaria, you could call them criminals, or pedophiles (sorry, ephebophiles). I sure as hell don’t want people calling them the same name that arrogant women use to refer to men who look at her the wrong way.
Finally, the “Gift of Fear” does not exist. If you’re uneasy, there’s ALWAYS a tangible reason, even if you can’t pinpoint it. It’s never just “creepy”, because that’s a meaningless term. It’s obviously okay to remove yourself from those situations, but don’t refer to it as “creepy” or “intuition”. That’s a sixth sense, and it’s so much bullshit like astrology and tarot cards. It’s just an excuse to keep on creep shaming.
Creepiest bloke I ever turned down? Came back to my house after I went to sleep, broke in and jumped on me in bed. Put his hand over my eyes, held down my other arm and said “Shut up and I won’t hurt you!”
Arrogant little twerp, he was! And young enough to be my son.
By the way MRAL, I’ve used “creepy” to describe some women I’ve encountered. Know why? Because either their behavior or their demeanor was threatening. So yeah, not gendered.
MRAL is obviously a sock puppet of another poster on this site(though I won’t say who I’m quite certain I know who it is! =P).
Jesus! That’s scary, Magpie.
Mr. Al has some sockpuppets, that I know. But Mr. Al is a sockpuppet now? This is a strange development.
For some reason I learned about Creepy Chan today. She’s a girl.
Bee, I was scared up until he said that, then I was furious! I yelled the whole time, a neighbour heard me and answered, and he ran away. I was completely unhurt and it was over in under a minute. Of course, it took another four years to get through court! He please guilty to most of the charges, so I didn’t have to go to court. So not all that bad, really. :)
*plead guilty
Is it Amanda Marcotte?
Ha, I’m a total compulsive hair-twirler. Once in middle school a guy in my class asked “hey, were you at X movie last Saturday evening?” and I was all “whaaa, yes I was, how’d you know?” and he told me that he’d been sitting a few rows back from me and recognized the way I was constantly flicking my hair in a very particular way during the whole movie. :p
MRAL, it sounds like you done good, so please don’t ruin it with all this paranoid Hitler’s Hive Vagina stuff. If that girl you asked out is even still thinking at all about your interaction with her, she’s most likely to be over-analyzing her own actions and hoping she was sufficiently nice about everything, not thinking about your actions much at all.
Every now and then I’ve been asked out by a guy (or sometimes not a guy) who I’ve turned down, and I always completely agonize over how to do it. This is just how some people are, regardless of gender, and if anything women are probably more likely to worry about this because we are brought up to be very considerate of others’ feelings. Hell, once I suspected that a guy friend of mine was planning on asking me out, so I preemptively gave him the “just fyi, if this was something you were thinking, and I’m not saying you were, but just in case, I’m not interested in dating anyone right now and that’s because I’m weird and you are a cool person the end” — MRAL, if you think you just suffered any worse than I did then, you are pure batshit.
As for the email in the OP — if dudes like MRAL can politely just walk away from rejection with some dignity, why can’t we expect the same of other dudes? I’m socially awkward and it’s never resulted in a letter like that; any time I’ve gotten into stubborn entitled brow-beating whining territory it was over stuff like arguing bedtimes with my parents, not arguing love with a first date. You don’t automatically make demands of people just because you’re not great at socializing so much as when you think they owe you something.
” You don’t automatically make demands of people just because you’re not great at socializing so much as when you think they owe you something.”
Exactly. Awkward would wonder what happened, and might even ask if the opportunity presented itself. Just awkward would not stalk a person till they found an email address and then send a 3000 work email complete with demands that a second date occur and threats of how miserable the other person would be without them.
Creepy chan was also a contestant on Americas Next Top Model.
Creepy + Attractive :)
Possibly everyone’s seen this already, but apparently this “Mike” guy is a serial offender …
Yeah, I … didn’t get it. I thought she was supercute on ANTM (the first season she was on — I didn’t watch the recent season), and what I read today about Creepy Chan didn’t really explain it; the article just kind of casually mentioned it. And every time I hear “chan,” I just kinda go, Don’t care, don’t want to know … turning away now. Even Chan Marshall. Even Charlie Chan. That’s how little I care about all things chan.
Anyway, creepy. It’s for girls now. Check it out, Mr. Al!
So he basically stalks people using form letters? That’s…efficient, I guess. Ugh…
Wow, is that second link somehow even more controlling and scary?
Look what you’re doing to meeeeeeeeeee…
Hey maybe if she’s such a horrible friend, you should stop phone- and internet-stalking her.
Being kidnapped from your family, shackled in a ship for months, forced to lose your previous cultural, language and identity, traded, bred for work quality, raped, watching your loved ones raped, beaten, being sold to other farms and having your family being ripped away from you again, lynched, having legalize segregation against you, having the CIA list stalk and list you as a threat for protesting for basic rights, spending hundreds of years as being looked upon as uncouth, unintelligent, animalistic, not being able to get a taxi in New York, having no to little civil rights for a long ass time and even today being socially, institutionally and economically effected by this, politicians can openly still refer to you as someone who is a criminal, a poor parent and cheat while receiving massive support all wrapped up into one word that invokes all of these injustices that you will most likely hear when ACTUALLY getting threatened, physically harmed or just looked down upon is why creep is not the same as n***er.
Fuck you, you entitled, sniveling, rage filled, little toddler throwing online tantrums.
: / You don’t know how to empathize or else you would be able to understand how n***er is in no way like creep.
Unless you’re ignorant and have no general concept of world history, but my bet is on entitlement and stupidity.
Here:
http://www.succeedsocially.com
Now that was a magnificent smackdown.
Do you feel embarrassed yet, MRAL? You should.
*claps*
Well said, ersatzmoons!
*claps for ersatzmoons*
/me is humbled to be in the presence of such an awesome smackdown
…WHAT?!
You seriously need to revise your view of reality.
Also, ersatzmoons: I love you.
No it isn’t. I’ve known plenty of creepy women. And creepy animals, come to that, one of whom lives next door.
Since I’m more than twice MRAL’s age, I have to keep thinking back to what I was like in the late 1980s, and what I might have been like if I’d had the same blogs, forums and online social networks. I certainly wouldn’t have been as ragingly misogynist (I had plenty of rejections – didn’t we all? – but also a lot of platonic female friends), and I hope I wouldn’t have been as raging generally, but I suspect I’d have written a fair amount of cringeworthy stuff on a weekly if not daily basis. It’s bad enough rereading my Usenet postings and emails from fifteen years ago, and I suspect I only preserve them out of masochism.
So I still hope that in twenty years time, maybe even ten, MRAL will look back at these postings from the vantage point of a genuinely successful relationship and laugh merrily at his various immature delusions. It’s certainly not anything close to too late – he’s got the whole of the next decade to experiment and possibly longer. (I didn’t meet my wife until we were both in our mid-thirties).
Oh, and I agree with the majority – I don’t for one second imagine the woman who turned MRAL down is laughing and jeering at him behind his back. Unless he said or did something really stupid at the time, why would she? I’ve turned people down, and I never enjoyed doing it, because if you possess even one empathetic bone in your body, it’s really not especially enjoyable finding out that someone fancies you more than you fancy them.
All the fucking dumbasses on here calling me entitled or whatever should learn some goddamn reading comprehension. I said that I didn’t have a problem with being turned down. In fact I expected it because I am so ugly. It turned out as I expected. No big deal.
Also, erstaz or whatever your name is, I’m pretty sure most black people have not experienced one tenth of those things.
I called a kitty creepy today! Much before this racism-dismissing conversation ever happened (and I’ll add my voice to the chorus: very well put, ersatzmoons). Purring right above behind my head at full-force, so that when I wake up in the middle of the night and roll over there are eyes centimeters away from my own, attached to a big black rumbling creature. Kitty, you creep! But it was a male cat so misandry etc.
I was using the adjective form, not the noun. If he was a criminal (hard to judge; certainly the other examples I brought up weren’t criminal acts), then, as a way of describing how his behaviour made me feel unsafe, I would call him a creepy criminal. The word criminal does not encode the feelings of danger in the speaker that creepy does.
Background: I have a stalker who frequently emails me (to no reply, of course). Sometimes I get so angry at his horrible emails that I share them with my friends. It’s a way of venting my frustration, because I can’t actually reply to him screaming at him to fuck off.
When I first saw this email on Reddit, I tweeted a few excerpts from it to my Twitter in quotes, just because I was so stunned and wanted to talk about it with my friends. One of my friends immediately asked if I was tweeting excerpts from my own stalker’s emails. And actually, the similarity struck me too. This guy’s email is eerily, creepily similar to the things my stalker sends, right down to the weird overanalysing of tiny things like where my eyes were pointed or what I was doing with my hair, and the claims that I’m being unfair and I’m mean and judgemental for not wanting to associate with him. So I guess I feel quite confident saying I know this kind of guy, the kind of guy who writes an email like this, and the link posted a few comments above where another woman apparently got a letter from this same guy and had to threaten him with the police before he backed off doesn’t surprise me at all.
Honestly, reading both emails he sent to both Lauren and the other girl made me feel quite frightened for them, because he sounds like a classic stalker, and he sounds dangerous.
a) That’s hardly the point. The point is the history of oppression and injustice the n-word carries. It is NOT comparable to creep. It’s just not.
b) Even 1/10 of those things is too much.
c) If we’re speculating, I’m pretty sure most men haven’t decided that all women are entitled bitches because they’ve been rejected so many times.
d) I don’t think people who ask me out are inherently creepy, even if I don’t accept and even if they are not conventionally attractive (or, as you say, “ugly”). Whenever I’ve been rejected I didn’t assume that the person found me creepy.
e) I’m pretty sure you’re not ugly, but your world view sure as hell is.
Also, how did you get from this:
to this:
No. You do not “know” that. In fact, it’s very unlikely that she’s saying anything about you at all. This is opposed to you, who are posting about her on an online forum. If it was, as you say, “amiable”, then I’m sure she’s a decent person who takes absolutely no pleasure in rejecting someone. I’m sure she was flattered at being asked out. Most people are.
Again, you don’t know this person. How do you know her physical preferences, let alone that they’re “ridiculous”?
Ugh, who IS even.
Most of the women I know would definitely think twice if approached by “a Pittclone”. People who are that good-looking often turn out to have severe defects in other spheres, personality being a common victim.
I know MRAL refuses to believe this, but pretty much every woman I know would far, far rather date someone intelligent and funny who actually appreciates them as a fellow human being than they would some bronzed Adonis who spends much more time cultivating his six-pack than he does on improving his social skills.
And indeed vice-versa – personality and intelligence trump looks every single time as far as I’m concerned. One of my closest friends (and a long-term fuckbuddy in the 1990s) is in a wheelchair, and she never had any problem getting dates because she was such delightful company all the time: to this day, her Facebook status updates provide one of my most unfailingly reliable daily giggles.
Keep in mind that MRAL “interactions with men online” means MRA people. I have no doubt that their narrative is that ‘all women will mock you behind your back for asking them out’.
One of my female friends was so sorry that she had to turn someone down (quite rightly: they really weren’t a good match for lots of reasons) that she went out of her way to find someone else more suitable.
I can’t remember if anything positive came out of it, but I do remember her confiding in me about what a wrench it was saying no – she wanted to be nice to him, but the potential downside was too huge to ignore (for starters, they were colleagues).
And I think that reaction is just as plausible as the “laugh at me behind my back like EVIL FUCK BITCHES FUCK” one – though by far the most likely one is that she simply doesn’t mention it to anyone at all.
Seriously. I’ve never been in a relationship with a bronzed Adonis/Aryan superman/Pittclone or whatever you want to call them. I have been on dates with a few where it never went beyond the first few dates because they were so full of themselves + assumed that I would sleep with them immediately because they were basically irresistible. You could tell that they were used to getting a lot of positive attention.
This is not to say that all good-looking men are assholes (far from it), but yeah, I’ll take social skills, intelligence and a solid set of ethics over a six-pack any day. Also, social skills doesn’t mean the person can’t also be a little shy/awkward/geeky.
Even if MRAL doesn’t believe any woman who says that she’s not chasing Pittiness, the vast majority of men aren’t Pitts and yet most of us still manage to talk to women, have friendships with women, and even date women. That this fact escapes him makes me wonder if he has any IRL male friends.
MRAL, consider this scenario.
Say a woman asks YOU out (I know this goes against your preconceived notion of the universe, both toward your self image and gender dynamics as a whole; but humor me here). For whatever MRAL reasons you might have, while you don’t hate her, you don’t really feel attracted to her or otherwise don’t feel you want to be with her. As a result, you turn her down.
Upon doing this, are you going to insult her behind her back for having the gall to dare ask you out? Are you going to hate her until the end of time on the basis that she dared indicate an interest in you?
If you honestly say yes to either of those questions, then I am hoping nobody ever asks you out (at least as long as you keep this mentality). If not, then consider the idea that a woman might not drip venom toward every individual (regardless of gender identity) whom asks her out simply on the basis of rejecting them.
MRAL: I would ask everyone here to not use the C-word, please. It’s loaded with hate and shame.
Which ‘c’ word is that: cunt?
Oh, no, you probably mean creep or variations (creepy), a word you equate with a racial slur that is connected to centuries of enslavement, lynching, segregation, and oppression that continued even after laws changed–that keep in mind that the laws changed in my childhood. So you a white man feel entitled to claim that women referring to men as “creeps” based on behavior is exactly like “nigger” (I like how you’re unwilling to type both words out–amazing how white people think if they don’t actually SAY the word, they’re not actually racist!) (did you read about the Texas attorneys complaining about “Canadians” on juries when they actually meant “nigger?” It’s a hoot the way SOME people try to cover up their hatred–now you on the other hand, do a shit job of hiding your hatred, and ‘empathy’ actually means more than sympathizing with people you think are just like you–i.e. a man who gets turned down on a date).
Then after referring to women by a whole variety of vile epithets you ask US to stop using “creep.”
Here’s the deal MRAL: how about YOU stop using words like bitches, fucking highness, gash and all other insulting terms associated with women, and oh yeah, stop comparing them to Nazis (REALLY? GENOCIDE=NOT DATING YOU?)? If YOU can do that, then it’s quite possible that some people here will perhaps consider stopping calling you creepy. No promises, mind you, but WHY do you think people should change their language when you don’t change yours?
Even when your therapist told you that it would be a good idea to stop always calling women bitches, or was it “fucking bitches fuck them”, you just came up with a euphemism (see: Texas lawyers referring to African Americans as “Canadians” as their own cute little attempt to cover up their racism). So, fuck you, you creepy little entitled asshole — you clean up YOUR language, and then we’ll talk.
Oh, and if your school is in the last week/finals week of classes, and if this young woman you asked out was a student, that might be ONE reason (having nothing to do with you) that she turned you down. You said you don’t now her that well: do you KNOW she’ not in a current relationship? How do you know she’s not in a relationship with somebody back home or at another college?
And do you know how creepy and ridiculous it is that you’re ranting about her trash talking on the internet….on the internet?
I will give you credit for (in your version) not showing her your response to her turning you down, and actually saying that she probably had her reasons.
However, I don’t for one second believe that you’re not angry and hurt. I think you’re lying through your creepy little teeth about that fact, and deluding yourself that you can fake out a group who has seen your anger splashed all over our monitors for months now.
I’ll leave it to the regulars to hold the fort. But all I’ll say is … SURELY NOW ALL YOU CRITICS, DOUBTERS, NAYSAYERS, SKEPTICS FINALLY UNDERSTAND WHY THERE IS A REAL NEED FOR FEMBOTS (EITHER VIRTUAL OR 3D). Far too many and ever more of my brothers have had their minds blown, hearts crushed, souls torn due to the dictates of their basic mating instinct, only to waste their time, money, and energy through no fault of their own, as they were simply being true to themselves as males. MALES HAVE NEEDS, AND IF THERE IS NO WAY AT ALL TO FULFILL THOSE THROUGH THE USUAL/TRADITIONAL/CONVETIONAL ROUTES, IT IS ONLY FAIR AND JUST AND RIGHT THAT WE HAVE THE FREEDOM TO EXPLORE OTHER ALTERNATIVES, your hypocritical feminazi shaming be damned!
EDITED AND REPOSTED DUE TO HTML FAIL AND MODERATION ISSUE: David, I hadn’t realized the filter was set the way it was, so inadvertently ended up in moderation.
Which ‘c’ word is that: cunt?
Oh, no, you probably mean creep or variations (creepy), a word you equate with a racial slur that is connected to centuries of enslavement, lynching, segregation, and oppression that continued even after laws changed–that keep in mind that the laws changed in my childhood. So you a white man feel entitled to claim that women referring to men as “creeps” based on behavior is exactly like a racial slur based on those centuries of oppression.
Speaking of words and meaning, ‘empathy’ actually means more than sympathizing with people you think are just like you–i.e. a man who gets turned down on a date. I’ll believe you have empathy when you show it relating to someone who is not like you.
So after your history of referring to ALL women by a whole variety of vile epithets you ask US to stop using “creep.”
Here’s the deal MRAL: how about YOU stop using words like bitches, fucking highness, gash and other insulting terms associated with women, and oh yeah, stop comparing them to Nazis (REALLY? GENOCIDE=NOT DATING YOU?)? If YOU can do that, then it’s quite possible that some people here will perhaps consider stopping calling you creepy. No promises, mind you, but WHY do you think people should change their language when you don’t change yours? And if you don’t realize how creepy it is for someone to express their naked rage and graphic revenge fantasies and then insist on how gentle and decent they are — well, take my word for it. It’s creepy.
Even when your therapist told you that it would be a good idea to stop always calling women bitches, or was it “fucking bitches fuck them”, you just came up with a euphemism (see: Texas lawyers referring to African Americans as “Canadians” in their emails as their own cute little attempt to cover up their racism). So, fuck you, you creepy little entitled asshole — you clean up YOUR language, and then we’ll talk.
Oh, and if your school is in the last week/finals week of classes, and if this young woman you asked out was a student, that might be ONE reason (having nothing to do with you) that she turned you down. You said you don’t now her that well: do you KNOW she’ not in a current relationship? How do you know she’s not in a relationship with somebody back home or at another college?
And do you know how creepy and ridiculous it is that you’re ranting about her trash talking on the internet….on the internet?
I will give you credit for (in your version) not showing her your response to her turning you down, and actually saying that she probably had her reasons.
However, I don’t for one second believe that you’re not angry and hurt. I think you’re lying through your creepy little teeth about that fact, and deluding yourself that you can fake out a group who has seen your anger splashed all over our monitors for months now.
Hey MRAL: just get the fuck over yourself, already. It’s just getting old at this point.
As for creepy, the label, it is exclusively applied to those who behave in a certain way/ say certain things. Remember the idiot who posted pictures of himself and our webhost? He was creepy, even though his face was completely ordinary, because I knew he had posted a long screed about raping 14 year old girls, and how that was somehow utterly natural.
I fucken love this site. Would still love to make it on the blogroll :)
The thing is, MRAL keeps referring to himself as “ugly” – and I wholeheartedly agree.
Now why might that be, when I have no real idea what he looks like?
MRAL,
Have you been in love/had your heart broken?
What I am about to write might not get many metaphorical upvotes from other Anti-MRAs but I think it needs saying.
When a male loses his first (and subsequent) love(s), I think it hits them harder than it does a female. This isn’t woman blaming, for the following reasons. Societal masculine norms dictate that “boys don’t talk about things like that” and certainly wouldn’t ask friends for “support”. So it gets internalised – the male can become bitter. Females have friends to hug and can be more emotional. To a very limited degree, I agree with an MRA point – that men showing their emotions feel “shamed” but where I disagree with the MRA point (and what is also incredibly honest) is that it is *males* who shame males for being emotional – not (usually) females.
The thing to do is to learn from your mistakes and realise that happiness isn’t provided by another person – though a relationship can provide a huge amount of happiness.
MRAL, I really don’t think you’re a lost cause – I just think you’ve not had the feedback from females that you wanted/thought you were due. And you’ve gotten involved with some vile individuals who exploit your latent bitterness.
It isn’t too late.
MRAL, nice way to show how empathetic you are. You really meant “pathetic,” right? That I would believe, ya big creep.
I’m sure the guy is a fucked-up Asperger. These guys have no social skills and cannot understand body language. And when they are fucked up, they believe they are entitled to women. There’s a lot of guys like that that try to become PUAs because PUA seduction technique is like an algorithm. Of course these guys fail and they become even more angry against women. George Sodini probably had Asperger. The idea that a woman twirling her air is interested in you directly comes from PUA ideas :
http://www.google.com/webhp?complete=0&hl=en#hl=en&safe=off&complete=0&site=webhp&q=twirling+hair+pua&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=32c8e0486eb07966&biw=1920&bih=914
The guy probably read everything on the web about PUA techniques and he tried to apply what he read.
You know, MRAL, Chris Martin (from Coldplay) was a virgin till he was 21. And he’s a famous musician for crying out loud! There’s hope for everyone!
And can you blame Chris Martin? The way British females are nowadays… he probably voluntarily held out for as long as he could before ultimately succumbing to his libido…
Yeah, women like sex now, and they never used to! It’s totes gross! British hoores!
Seriously Whatever, everyone already knows that you think women having the sex with people they choose, especially several people, is icky. We also know that you think everyone should agree, since you express total shock that we don’t. What, you guys don’t hate the sluts? But… but they’re the sluts! Everyone hates them! Hating sluts is normal and so you should all change your opinions to be normal! This is how a discussion works!
Ullere: Presumably this woman in question posted the email online without Mikes wishes,
To which I say that’s the risk one takes. Correspondence belongs to the recipient. If they wish to publish it they can (barring some other contractual, or legal restriction).
I’ve never been one who thinks e-mail is some sooper-secret form of communication which requires the other party’s permission to share. No, I won’t read your e-mail if you leave the it open, any more than I will read your letters if yoy leave them lying about the house.
But if someone chooses to publish them, that’s their perogative.
Since this was a completely unsolicited communication, I might go so far as to say it was spam, and something of a public document in the first place. Certainly his lack of respect for that aspect of her privacy doesn’t entitle him to any greater deal of respect for his feelings than he showed to hers with his seeking out information she chose not to share.
I think it’s very revealing – and commendable – that even after posting days of what even the most generous-minded observer would have to describe as vile, pig-ignorant shit, MRAL still gets plenty of sympathy from people who normally disagree with virtually every word he writes.
And most of this sympathy is coming from women.
Now doesn’t that, in itself, rather comprehensively contradict his seemingly core belief that women are all ARROGANT FUCK BITCHES FUCK GASHES FUCK CUNTS?
And when / where did I state that I find it disgusting for women to have sex? Obviously, I don’t because I’d be asexual then or homosexual (I personally know gay guys who find women physically repulsive), but I am most assuredly heterosexual. And I don’t even abhor women with multiple sexual partners, so long as they’re not “playing” any of the guys so to speak and it’s not unhealthily excessive (which also applies to any other area in life anyway). Has anyone on this board ever heard of “Moderation”?