How to creep out the entire internet, lovelorn banker edition
Try dressing as a nun. Then maybe he'll go away.
Dating can be tough. It can be especially tough if your personality is a mixture of petulance and insecurity. And even tougher if you think you can argue someone who’s not interested in you into a second date with an angry, accusatory, sometimes hilarious, sometimes deeply unsettling 1600-word email. And no, I’m not speaking hypothetically here.
The email in question, written by a young investment banker named Mike to an unfortunate woman named Lauren after one less-than-great date, was posted on Reddit a couple of days ago, and has already gotten a lot of internetty attention, but some of you may not have seen it, so I thought I’d give it a little fisking anyway. Settle in; it’s going to be a long and bumpy ride. (Note: What follows below is most of the email; I’ve cut out a few passages here and there.)
Hi Lauren,
I’m disappointed in you. I’m disappointed that I haven’t gotten a response to my voicemail and text messages.
Well, we’re off to a not-so-good start. Perhaps she is, as they say, just not that into you?
FYI, I suggest that you keep in mind that emails sound more impersonal, harsher, and are easier to misinterpret than in-person or phone communication. After all, people can’t see someone’s body language or tone of voice in an email. I’m not trying to be harsh, patronizing, or insulting in this email. I’m honest and direct by nature, and I’m going to be that way in this email.
Gosh, I wonder why Lauren didn’t get back to him.
By the way, I did a google search, so that’s how I came across your email.
Google-stalking – always a nice touch. There’s no better way to charm a nice lady than by tracking down her personal information online.
I assume that you no longer want to go out with me. (If you do want to go out with me, then you should let me know.) I suggest that you make a sincere apology to me for giving me mixed signals. I feel led on by you.
Uh, what? She’s ignoring you, dude. She doesn’t want to go out with you. Seems to me she’s sending you a pretty unmixed message here.
Should she have responded to your voicemail and/or texts? In an ideal world, perhaps, but she may have sensed that you’d react precisely how you’re reacting now, and didn’t want to have anything more to do with your creepy, entitled bullshit.
And now Mike the banker makes his, er, “case” for why she should go on a second date with him:
Things that happened during our date include, but are not limited to, the following:
-You played with your hair a lot. A woman playing with her hair is a common sign of flirtation. You can even do a google search on it. When a woman plays with her hair, she is preening. I’ve never had a date where a woman played with her hair as much as you did. In addition, it didn’t look like you were playing with your hair out of nervousness.
You were flirting!! Hair-twirling = sex! If you don’t realize it you can google search it!!!
-We had lots of eye contact during our date. On a per-minute basis, I’ve never had as much eye contact during a date as I did with you.
Eye contact is an Indicator of Interest. IOI! IOI! If you didn’t want to bear my children why did you look at me, with your eyes????
-You said, “It was nice to meet you.” at the end of our date. A woman could say this statement as a way to show that she isn’t interested in seeing a man again or she could mean what she said–that it was nice to meet you. The statement, by itself, is inconclusive.
Well, not really. This is what people say to be polite at the end of a disappointing date, when they don’t want to see you again. If she wanted to see you again, she would have said something about making plans for a second date.
-We had a nice conversation over dinner. I don’t think I’m being delusional in saying this statement.
We had a conversation! You did not flee in horror! Therefore you must have my babies!!!
In my opinion, leading someone on (i.e., giving mixed signals) is impolite and immature. It’s bad to do that.
And sending someone who clearly wants nothing to do with you a long, creepy, accusatory tirade is polite?
Normally, I would not be asking for information if a woman and I don’t go out again after a first date. However, in our case, I’m curious because I think our date went well and that there is a lot of potential for a serious relationship.
Dude, you do understand that she has to actually like you too in order for there to be a relationship?
I think we should go out on a second date. In my opinion, our first date was good enough to lead to a second date.
You cannot argue someone into a second date! That’s not how it works.
Why am I writing you? Well, hopefully, we will go out again. Even if we don’t, I gain utility from expressing my thoughts to you.
Gain utility? Really? DATING IS NOT MICROECONOMICS!
In addition, even if you don’t want to go out again, I would like to get feedback as to why you wouldn’t want to go again. Normally, I wouldn’t ask a woman for this type of feedback after a first date, but this is an exception given I think we have a lot of potential.
Well, banker dude. You’re getting some feedback now. All over the internet.
If you don’t want to go again, then apparently you didn’t think our first date was good enough to lead to a second date. Dating or a relationship is not a Hollywood movie. It’s good to keep that in mind. In general, I thought the date went well and was expecting that we would go out on a second date.
So your argument is that she should go out with you, even though she doesn’t want to go out with you, because life isn’t perfect and you’re probably the best she really deserves?
Way to sell yourself, dude.
If you’re not interested in going out again, then I would have preferred if you hadn’t given those mixed signals. I feel led on.
Well, she’s not really responsible for you thinking that every woman who twirls her hair in your presence wants to have your babies.
We have a number of things in common.
Oh dear, sounds like we’ve got another “logical” argument coming up here.
I’ll name a few things: First, we’ve both very intelligent. Second, we both like classical music so much that we go to classical music performances by ourselves. In fact, the number one interest that I would want to have in common with a woman with whom I’m in a relationship is a liking of classical music. I wouldn’t be seriously involved with a woman if she didn’t like classical music. You said that you’re planning to go the NY Philharmonic more often in the future. As I said, I go to the NY Philharmonic often. You’re very busy. It would be very convenient for you to date me because we have the same interests. We already go to classical music performances by ourselves. If we go to classical music performances together, it wouldn’t take any significant additional time on your part.
Um, what?
I have no clever remark to make here, other than that Lauren is probably going to have to avoid going to the Philharmonic ever again, on the off chance she might run into banker Mike.
According to the internet, you’re 33 or 32, so, at least from my point of view, we’re a good match in terms of age.
YOU ARE RIGHT AGE. INTERNET SAYS SO. THEREFORE YOU MUST DATE ME.
I could name more things that we have in common, but I’ll stop here. I don’t understand why you apparently don’t want to go out with me again. We have numerous things in common.
Also, you both require oxygen to live. Lauren, can’t you see that you and banker Mike are soulmates?
I assume that you find me physically attractive. If you didn’t find me physically attractive, then it would have been irrational for you to go out with me in the first place. After all, our first date was not a blind date. You already knew what I looked like before our date.
Banker Mike: You said you wanted feedback. Here is some feedback. She was apparently not horrified by your physical appearance. It may be your horrible personality that needs some work.
Perhaps, you’re unimpressed that I manage my family’s investments and my own investments. Perhaps, you don’t think I have a “real” job. Well, I’ve done very well as an investment manager. I’ve made my parents several millions of dollars. That’s real money. That’s not monopoly money. In my opinion, if I make real money, it’s a real job. Donald Trump’s children work for his company. Do they have “real” jobs? I think so. George Soros’s sons help manage their family investments. Do they have “real” jobs? I think so.
You’re fighting a losing battle here, dude. Just as you cannot argue someone into liking you, you cannot argue someone into being impressed that you manage your parents’ money.
In addition, I’m both a right-brain and left-brain man, given that I’m both an investment manager and a philosopher/writer.
And I’m the Queen of Denmark.
That’s a unique characteristic; most people aren’t like that. I’ve never been as disappointed and sad about having difficulty about getting a second date as I am with you.
Oy. As if this email wasn’t stalkerish enough already.
I’ve gone out with a lot of women in my life. (FYI, I’m not a serial dater. Sometimes, I’ve only gone out with a woman for one date.)
This last bit I have no trouble believing.
I suggest that we continue to go out and see what happens.
I suspect that Lauren has already played out various scenarios in her head already, and that none of them end well.
Needless to say, I find you less appealing now (given that you haven’t returned my messages) than I did at our first date. However, I would be willing to go out with you again. I’m open minded and flexible and am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. I wish you would give me the benefit of the doubt too.
So now you’re being noble and “open minded” for trying to pressure a woman who wants nothing to do with you into a second date?
If you don’t want to go out again, in my opinion, you would be making a big mistake, perhaps one of the biggest mistakes in your life.
Now you’re just making my skin crawl.
I spent time, effort, and money meeting you for dinner. Getting back to me in response to my messages would have been a reasonable thing for you to do. In addition, you arrived about 30 minutes late for our date. I’m sure you wouldn’t like it if a man showed up thirty minutes late for a first date with you.
Here’s a solution, dude: How about she never goes on another date with you, ever. Then you won’t ever have to worry about her being late ever again.
If you’re concerned that you will hurt my feelings by providing specific information about why you don’t want to go with me again, well, my feeling are already hurt. I’m sad and disappointed about this situation. If you give information, at least I can understand the situation better. I might even learn something that is beneficial.
I hope you find the feedback that the internet has now provided you to be helpful.
If you don’t want to go out again, that I request that you call me and make a sincere apology for leading me on (i.e., giving me mixed signals).
Now we’re back on this again.
In my opinion, you shouldn’t act that way toward a man and then not go out with him again. It’s bad to play with your hair so much and make so much eye contact if you’re not interested in going out with me again.
Damn you, foul strumpet, and your devious hair-playing ways! Google it! GOOGLE IT!!!
I would like to talk to you on the phone.
I think you’ve pretty much guaranteed that this will never, ever happen.
Even if you don’t want to go out again, I would appreciate it if you give me the courtesy of calling me and talking to me. Yes, you might say things that hurt me, but my feelings are already hurt. Sending me an email response (instead of talking on the phone) would better than no response at all, but I think it would be better to talk on the phone. Email communication has too much potential for misinterpretation, etc.
Not much to misinterpret here, Mike. You’ve made it absolutely crystal clear that you’re an undateable creep.
Let me be serious for a moment. Forget about Lauren. Hell, forget about women in general for a while, and work on yourself. Get some therapy; you can afford it. Work through your bitterness, your petulance, your highly unattractive mixture of entitlement and insecurity. Stop being a “Nice Guy” and learn to be genuinely nice.
And don’t ever, ever, ever write another email like this one.
Posted on December 8, 2011, in creepy, evil women, men who should not ever be with women ever, nice guys, threats. Bookmark the permalink. 1,020 Comments.
Oh, sorry. You should also not have any coworkers, supervisors, classmates, or teachers. And you should not just live in a house with a locking door and a gun, but you must never leave it. Or open the door. Or let anyone inside.
This is fun! What else?
I assume we’re all procrastinating studying for finals? No?
Can someone remind me why anyone ever talks to this guy? Can we please move to a strategy of just saying “That’s nice, honey” every time he opens his trap?
I’m cool with this strategy, as long as we change “honey” to something more suitable for Brandon. “That’s nice, dickbiscuit,” has a good ring to it, I think.
Well, you need to remember that being feminist is the reason you are abused, if you are abused. There are no nonfeminists who are beaten or raped, ever.
Brandon is clear on that, anyway.
I told you he was not very bright.
So basically if we want to avoid rapists everyone should avoid Brandon.
“Sorry, dude, I mean, you might be cool, but you keep victim-blaming and talking about how all women are fucktoys, and rapists do that.”
@ Brandon
“Winning an argument with a feminist is like fighting with a child…pointless.”
Actually, I could say the same thing about you.
And you don’t seem to be winning so much as making a claim, declaring your own victory, getting off on your own self-importance, and ignoring all the counterarguments and tough questions. (You still haven’t told us what Bostonian should have done.)
You’re not very good at this.
When I was a kid, I used to be teased a lot. As I got older I learned to be incredibly bristly. I would strike first so no one could hurt me. Brandon does the same thing-he thinks that by mocking us first, we cannot hurt him. Since he never learned to get past that, he is more to be pitied then not. His life is a hollow endless series of days where he cannot be close to anyone because if he was, they could hurt him so he must hurt them first.
That is why Ashley is kept at arm’s length and he convinces himself he is happy having his entire family be indifferent to him-from his distant mother to his child abusing father.
It is also why he clings to the idea of having money means you are happy-because otherwise his internal house of cards comes crashing down and he has to face the fact he is a bitter lonely young man who will never be truly happy.
Add into the mix his obvious dudebro personality, lack of any sort of intelligence, and you have: Brandon the Rape Apologist with the Imaginary Girlfriend (who is secretly lonely and cries into his beer at night when no one is looking.)
He will never answer the question anyway. Answering would expose a level of gross cruelty even he is unwilling to be honest about. It is clear from his other answers that I should have not have been 5 and in the care of a rapist, and that everyone should have magically known that.
Also maybe my t shirt and pants were provocative or something.
There was the time he tried to claim that he was oh so superior to us because he was with his family at Thanksgiving….that he immediately ruined by revealing they could give a rat’s ass about him.
Which makes me wonder if they even remember to set out a plate for him. “Oh Brandon! You are here, I totally forgot you existed. Can you move so Aunt More Important Then You has a good seat?”
Yep! Plus my boyfriend slept really late so I was on the computer because I needed something quiet to do that wouldn’t wake him up.
He’s awake now though so I might stop giving a crap.
Brandon, you think I’m referring to this single instance of you contradicting yourself while arguing something blisteringly stupid? It’s your whole goddamned raison d’être. You’re a lying, hypocritical dumbass who’s managed to, simultaneously, be a narcissistic fuckwad with all the depth of a Dixie cup. A moronic, no-reading-comprehension-having, mother fucker.
Congratulations.
“I meant in real life…”
So dumb. Isn’t there a ball game you could be watching somewhere with friends? You could eat some wings and rag on slutty women during commercial breaks?
Pretty much everything you’ve written in the last 24 hours constitutes unambiguous rape apologetics, by means of some of the oldest clichés in the book. Yes, rapists are evil, but their victims are at least partly to blame for wearing the wrong clothing, living in the wrong area, being poor at “judging character”, you name it.
Just as well, because I honestly can’t recall any examples. Most of the time you get your ass handed to you on a plate within minutes of your arrival. Sometimes seconds. You may not be aware of this at the time, but rest assured that everyone else is.
As a general rule, if you want to patronize someone, it’s better to do it from a position of unquestioned superiority. Otherwise you just come across as a deluded fool.
So you’re not a selfish rape apologist in real life? That’s good to know. But it does beg the question as to why you’ve created this repellent ‘Brandon’ online persona. Maybe it’s part of this “mockery” that you’re apparently doing, but the joke’s clearly too subtle for me.
I had a rare day of no work, nothing to do, and decided to run errands. But I forgot that it’s Sunday. So basically, I’ve spent the entire afternoon waiting in lines.
“I assume we’re all procrastinating studying for finals? No?”
Correct.
This dude makes millions and he still cannot get a woman? That just goes to show you how inflated American women’s sense of entitlement to Alpha-men has become.
If a millionaire can’t get a relationship, where do you think that leaves the 80% – 90% of the other guys who are not millionaires or underwear models?
Sexbots: …With girlfriends? As it happens, most straight and bi women would prefer a non-creepy ordinary man they get along with to a creepy underwear model millionaire they dislike.
You have come away from the bizarre, long, and clueless email having learned the wrong lesson. The takeaway here is that people who send bizarre, long, and clueless emails trying to argue uninterested women into dating them typically aren’t going to get what they want.
I guess maybe a secondary lesson could be that money isn’t the most important thing a guy can offer a potential partner.
Speaking only for myself, the majority of men (100 percent, actually) I’ve dated and/or had sex with have neither been millionaires nor underwear models. So I guess the answer to your question is: Dating someone like me. Unless the nonmillionare nonunderwearmodel is also a douchebag who doesn’t understand personal autonomy, in which case the answer may very well be: Confused and alone until he learns to respect the people he’s trying to date.
Jerking off to collectible dolls and art-prints of Gibson girls, while sleeping with Hello Kitty pillows.
Or so I’ve heard.
@Bostonian: Children are naturally defenseless. You are asking the defenseless to defend themselves. This won’t happen. However, an adult is perfectly capable of defending themselves (or at least make it more difficult for an attacker). So obviously young children can’t defend themselves. But you as an adult are able to.
@Elizabeth: HAHAHAHAHA!!! My child-abusing father! HAHAHAHAHAHA! My father has been the best influence in my life. Hardly an abuser. Also, Ashley isn’t kept at arms length, she just doesn’t live with me. My relationship with my mother might be strenuous but I spend time with her often and usually go out to eat to catch up with one another.
@Nobinayamu: Ya, in real life. You know “meatspace”. That thing you are a part of when you aren’t typing into a computer. Also, I am not really a huge sports fan, so no game for me.
@Wetherby: Well, if there are so many instances…it should be easy to find a direct quote by me that shows that I am apologizing for a rapist. Put up or shut up.
Viscaria – “I’m going to second Pecunium in wondering how Brandon weaseled out of explaining his original endorsement of DKM’s position. In case anyone has forgotten, that position is that it’s pretty understandable for a man to physically abuse his partner if she chooses to post on a site like this.”
This. Come on, Brandon, are you gonna retract your “I see what you’re saying, but those silly feminists don’t” speech to a guy who claimed a man gentle as a lamb would be incited to abuse by STUFF THE LEVEL OF WHAT WE POST ON MANBOOBZ. Not other stuff. Not a guy who catches his girlfriend cheating. The stuff we say on Manboobz.
P.S. Meller, I’m waiting for your examples of my manhating, bitterness, provocation, etc.
Brandon: @Nobinayamu: I was talking about in real life, not online.
“In my day to day life, I don’t go around looking for scientologist’s or feminists, but when they grace me with their presence, I feel the need to mock them.”
Brandon in your day to day life you come here. That is real life. It’s real time that you could be spending doing other things, which you choose to spend here, interacting with us.
Also, feminists tend not to like me because I treat them differently than other people. So technically, you are getting a very biased and skewed viewpoint of my behavior.
I wonder why that is, that people whom you treat differently treat you differently. Wow… who woulda thunk it.
Brandon: Again with the “I didn’t use exactly those words, so I never said it.”
You are saying that women are to blame for being raped. That means you are excusing the men. Blame, for things like rape, is a zero-sum game. For every bit of blame you put on the women, you are taking blame away from the men.
And you also said that Meller was right when he said that feminist women would be to blame if they, “provoked” men, and those men then beat, or killed, them.
You can try to say, “I was just fucking with you,” but that doesn’t it cut it. What you say on the internet is what you do, since all we have are your words.
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it might as well be a duck.
And you are a rape apologist. A DV Apololgist. A violence against women who piss men off apologist.
How can an adult defend xirself from rape, Brandon? I’ve been following what you’ve said, and so far your rape-prevention tips appear to be: Never have any friends, family, dates, coworkers, supervisors, classmates, teachers or roommates, live in a house with a locking door and a gun and never leave it or let anyone inside or open the door, don’t be 5 years old, and/or be a very large straight, cis, able-bodied man who’s not incarcerated.
Is that all, Brandon? Should I add never be drunk? Never be asleep? Don’t be vulnerable in any way? Be completely credible and don’t have any disabilities or trauma that might make you less believable? Don’t be an immigrant? Don’t be poor? Should we also not be feminists, since you seem to think that might provoke a man to attack us?
@Pecunium: I am not excusing the men and I hold them 100% responsible for their crimes.
Speaking of Ashley, brandon, you never did answer my question. Does she know that if she doesn’t act in an Appropriate Way According To Brandon, you would find it understandable behavior to beat her? I mean, of course you would never excuse yourself for hitting or abusing her but I mean, if she really really provoked you…
It’s probably best that she doesn’t live with you. Less of a chance for her to “push your buttons.”
Also, I’m not sure if you’re missing the point that “Women can take (increasingly restrictive) precautions from being raped.” leaves a lot of room for “Women who don’t take such precautions (which limit everything from their movements to where they live to their choice of dress) have some kind of hand in being raped and therefore do not deserve the sympathy and support that other more “pure” victims do”, or if you’re trying to sneak it past us.
It’s not working.
Alsoalso (to steal from ozy) not sure what’s so difficult to understand about the following”:
1.Certain women who do not act “correctly” are blamed for being raped,
2. These Women’s reports of rape are taken less seriously
3. Rapists realize that if a victim is one of those women who do not act correctly, they’re less likely to be believed
4. If a victim is less likely to be believed, the rapist is less likely to be caught
5. Women who do not act “correctly” (as determined by society) are more likely to be targets
6. ???
7. PROFIT!!*
(*Profit = policing and controlling women so that they behave they way you want them to by refusing to extend to those who break the rules the usual social protections against being assaulted and physically violated)
@Bee: When did I say never have any friends? Oh…when I said you should be more discriminating with whom you hang out with. The idea of living by yourself is just completely ridiculous I guess. Even though millions of people do it…it’s just a stupid idea to you.
Nice Reductio ad absurdum though.
I’ve already put up. As have many other people. I know reading comprehension isn’t your strongest suit, but no reasonable person could read what you’ve been writing in this thread over the last 24 hours and not conclude that your primary aim in this discussion is attempting to make excuses for rapists by shifting part of the blame onto their victims.
But since you’re so obsessed with “direct quotes”, here are five to be getting on with.
If you’d written just one of those comments, I might have been tempted to give you the benefit of the doubt, even though (1) in particular is classic rape apologetics, almost to the point of parody. But all five in the space of just a few hours? Can you really not see what’s wrong with this picture?
[quote]most straight and bi women would prefer a non-creepy ordinary man they get along with to a creepy underwear model millionaire they dislike.[/quote]
Really? I’ve seen (and read many accounts of) quite the opposite. Whenever I get along well with a woman (and I’m not a millionaire or underwear model looking dude) and we like each other, it’s always “LJBF” (Let’s Just Be Friends). Then the women fawn over some underwear model looking, or rich, dude. Then they complain to me about “why are guy’s such a*%holes?”. Wash, rinse, repeat.
[quote]The takeaway here is that people who send bizarre, long, and clueless emails trying to argue uninterested women into dating them typically aren’t going to get what they want.[/quote]
I’m sure the dude realized that he was not going to win another date by sending this email. It’s probably just a way for him to vent his feelings and frustrations by attempting to communicate with another. You know, that touchy-feely talking type of stuff women (and many men, of course) like to do?
I’ve talked with women online, in this fashion, before. Not after we’ve had a date, or a “bad date” either; just chatting online, maybe at a dating site or a forum of some sort.
I’m willing to bet (pennies to dollars – any takers?) the reason he sent this email is something along these lines (specifically #2):
1) He went out with a woman and thought they had a great time.
2) She doesn’t want a 2nd date because he wasn’t attractive enough (whatever of a trillion reasons this may be) and she thought he would be “hotter”.
3) Dude realizes that most women are waaaay over-superficial and will only consider dudes who are “hot” according to the media. Anything less and they’d be “settling”. And to “settle” money is simply not enough for many women.
4) Dude get’s frustrated and emails this rant because he’s noticed that every woman treats him like this!
He’s a millionaire, right? Maybe he’s the nicest guy you could ever meet. Cool and interesting, funny, great to hang out with, always making people laugh, volunteering, charity work, all that good stuff. But he wasn’t “hot enough”. Plain and simple.
Wouldn’t he be better off asking himself why every woman treats him like this?
“He’s a millionaire, right? Maybe he’s the nicest guy you could ever meet. Cool and interesting, funny, great to hang out with, always making people laugh, volunteering, charity work, all that good stuff. But he wasn’t ‘hot enough’. Plain and simple.”
Did you even, like, READ the OP? “On a per-minute basis, I’ve never had as much eye contact during a date as I did with you” is an odd and confusing thing to get in an email, not the cool and witty banter you seem to think it is.
Because women are bitches, duh. No cognitive dissonance required!
“The idea of living by yourself is just completely ridiculous I guess.”
Brandon, I have two housemates, one of whom is male. This is how I make the rent. Should I move back across country and live with my mom instead?
I see it takes roughly three days for Brandon to need his negative attention fix.
And dude, we’re not gracing you with our presence so much as you’re going out of your way to be in it. See the difference?
Thing is, when you say “Women are only useful as fuck toys,” I don’t think you’re kidding, mocking, or fucking with us. I think you truly believe that.
Anyone else like how now he’s the size of a Patriots linebacker? Sure you are dear. It’s the internet, you can be whatever you want.
@Shora: There is no reason to physically attack anyone from where I stand. If I was that angry at someone, I would just leave them and remove them from my life as much as possible.
I actually don’t have a lot of “buttons” as I am pretty easy going and laid back. I tend to go with the flow so she rarely does something that annoys me.
The people that know me would never label me as having a short fuse or a temper. In fact, I am the opposite. I have never laid an unwanted hand on a woman and I don’t have any plans to do so. In fact, the only scenario I can even think of where I would be violent to a woman would be if she was attacking me with a weapon and I couldn’t get away from her.
So you are trying to label me as a potential abuser is just hysterical.
“Anyone else like how now he’s the size of a Patriots linebacker? Sure you are dear. It’s the internet, you can be whatever you want.”
I would like to assure everyone that I am, in reality, a tiny hippo. It took me many years to learn to type with no thumbs!
@hellkell: I won’t lie…I think some women are only good for sex. Luckily those women are few and far between.
Believe what you want, but I am certainly no scrawny guy.
Sexbot Dude: 100% of the gentlemen I (female-assigned) dated have been neither underwear models nor millionaires. In fact, I tend to have a thing for writers, who are about as likely to be millionaire underwear models as they are to be astronauts.
I do only fuck people I find hot, though. Chubby boys with soft stomachs, boys with long hair, androgynes, skinny boys, boys with chest hair that brushes against your face when you cuddle, boys in suits…
Brandon, if your mom or your girlfriend was raped, would you ask them what they were wearing at the time?
Would you recommend they move to another city afterwards?
You said earlier that women should all learn how to use guns because doing otherwise would just be asking for it. Do you teach Ashley and your mom to use them?
Molly, you’re a tiny, adorable hippo with outstanding typing skills! :)
You won’t lie, Brandon? Huh. Thanks for the laugh, Meller Jr.
Brandon:
That’s good to know. And I believe you, as I have no reason to think otherwise.
But the comments you’ve made in this thread, particularly the one about “joking” about women “only being useful as fuck toys” in the middle of a discussion about rape (and just how clueless do you have to be not to see what’s wrong with that picture?) suggest that women would be well advised to be very cautious indeed in your presence.
This is called “judging character”. Something you yourself think that women should get better at doing.
Molly: I’m a tiny purple octopus! Good thing they put this waterproof computer in my aquarium…
TOTALLY reductio ad absurdum. TOTALLY not what you actually said.
As far as living by yourself as a way to prevent rape — I didn’t say that it’s a stupid idea, I just said that it was something that you said people should do to prevent rape. Which you did.
You also said that women could prevent rape by being more discriminating with whom they hung out with.
I was raped by my best friend of a year and his cousin. I had hung out with them repeatedly, in many different situations — in public, at their house, with other friends. They were both extremely well educated, both had great jobs. They were friends with other people I knew. They were fun, loved their family, dressed well … I guess I’m not really sure how discriminating you think I should have been as an 18 year old, but my parents liked them, my other friends liked them, they seemed totally normal. A little geeky, but hey. Whatever.
How discriminating does one have to be to be able to make friends and socialize with them and totally eliminate the chance of rape, Brandon? What would a person have to do to discriminate wisely and still have friends but never have a chance of being raped by them? What whistles should have gone off in my mind, when choosing to be friends with these people who my parents liked, my friends liked, and I liked?
@ozymandias42 That mental image just made me go “Awwww!” Tiny octopuses typing on tiny waterproof laptops! <3
Brandon, to recap:
Meller Said (emphasis mine):
To which you voiced your agreement
That is, you believe that a women can be so damn icorrigibly feminist that you would understand if “the poor bastard (otherwise as gentle as a lamb) was simply driven over the edge!”
(Quick thought experiment; how awesome do you think it is when people say they understand why a women would cut off their husband’s penis and throw it in the garbage disposal? Not condone, certainly, but they totally see where she was comming from.)
To further explore why we here at manboobz treat comments about how it’s “understandable” as the smarmy, mealy-mouthed, abuse apologetic statements that they are, let’s revisit my list that you so conveniently ignored
Oh and
You label yourself when you are so “understanding” to abusers.
Although, you know what? I believe you when you say you would never beat or abuse ashely or any other significant other. But you have to ask yourself; what kind of message do you send someone who DOES have a short fuse/temper, or a lot of “buttons”, when you talk about how much you understand where abuse is comming from?
I’ve already judged Brandon to patternmatch to characteristics of rapists as shown by peer-reviewed scientific research, including the objectification of women, misogyny, lack of respect for consent (coughvideo-tapingcough) and victim-blaming. This is not to say that he is a rapist, just that if I were going about looking for possible rapists to avoid, I’d definitely avoid him. After all, I should err on the side of caution if I don’t want to be raped…
@Molly: I would probably be in jail if someone raped my mother. He better put himself in protective custody, cause if I knew him…he would be dead.
@Wetherby: And I am not getting all in a huff about you or others judging me. I can’t make you think anything about me, so I just be who I want to be and let the chips fall where they fall. What you and others think of me is not my problem…but theirs.
@Bee: This is getting retarded. Of course there is no one method that can 100% prevent something. But there is a reason I don’t hang out with crackheads and junkies…they make bad friends. I would much rather be surrounded by educated people than people that enjoy “prolefeed”. So the better quality people you associate with the better you will be.
My rapist was from a good family, living in a nice neighborhood, in the suburbs. Not a crackhead or junkie in sight.
It’s2011-WhereRSexBots: I dunno, dude! We don’t owe you any sex bots, why don’t you design some of your own?
I have never dated a millionaire or an underwear model. I’ve dated men who I found interesting, who found me interesting in turn, and with whom I had several things in common. I don’t sleep with men I don’t find physically attractive, because I don’t believe in pity fucks. Sex is something me and a partner share for mutual enjoyment, not something I condescendingly offer to a guy because I’m just that fucking magnanimous. But not everyone I find attractive is Calvin Klein material, and how sexy I find an individual is influenced their personalities.
Of those millionaires I know well, four are married (two couples), because they deeply love each other, not for financial reasons. One has been single since his split from his wife 11 years ago, not for financial reasons. The last (many times wealthier than all the others) had a marriage that fell apart about 5 years ago for a number of reasons, some of which are related to money, but it’s hard to tell if it would have failed regardless of the money. He entered into an on-again off-again relationship, seemingly motivated by the money, that made both of them miserable. He’s now in a much happier relationship with someone closer in age, not for financial reasons. It looks to me like it’s possible for millionaires to have relationships just like the rest of us, that make it or don’t make it depending on a number of factors including, but not limited to, financial status.
Brandon:
But isn’t it just a tiny bit worrying that so many people, from so many different backgrounds, walks of life and indeed nationalities, end up saying more or less exactly the same things about you?
I mean, if I was so relentlessly subjected to the criticisms that you get every single time you post here, I’d be taking a long, hard look at myself and wondering why I’m provoking this reaction – because surely you can’t deliberately be trying to come across as a selfish, sexist dimwit with alarmingly poor reading comprehension skills?
Assuming the answer is “no” (because I can’t fathom why it would be “yes”), why is this our problem? You know full well that if you never posted here again it wouldn’t make one iota of difference to anybody else. Which, I suspect, is the main reason why you keep posting.
Brandon’s dad is a child abuser? Is this just the time he showed porn to his 14-year-old son or something new that I missed? (I’ve been grading papers all week.)
(Also, since my boyfriend’s dad is a judge and scrupulous about even the tiniest wrongdoing, I find it disquieting — if not really surprising — that a lawyer would do that. the dudebro doesn’t fall far from the tree, I guess.)
Sweet shit in the morning, you’ve read at least one book.
My abusive father has a PhD in linguistics. Everyone says he’s a fantastic clinician. So caring.
@Shora: There you go telling me what I believe. I will be more than willing to clarify if you have a question…but don’t just go reading things that aren’t there.
Brandon:
OK, so the more proletarian you are, the more likely you are to be a rapist. I’m sure we all agree that that’s a completely uncontroversial claim that doesn’t require any supporting evidence of any kind.
Brandon: someone who considers mocking sexual assault survivors a fun Sunday afternoon activity. I, for one, don’t need to know anything more.
You’re changing the subject again, Brandon. You weren’t talking about what kinds of friends one should hang out with in order to become a “better” person, or what kinds of people make good friends. You were talking about how people (women, I think specifically, but I like to keep it gender neutral since men can also get raped), can help prevent rape by doing different things. One of those things was that they should be more discriminating about who they hang out with.
That’s markedly different from talking about people who might be fun or edifying to know.
On the other hand, OF COURSE you have no answer to the question I posed. (a) You’re extremely stupid, and (b) the point you’re trying to make is irrational, flawed, and based in misconceptions and misunderstandings, not reality. Hey, I have an idea. Why don’t you pretend that Ashley just dropped by and you have to go now, after she makes a totally believable and realistic comment? That’s probably your best bet for exiting gracefully at this point, Brandon.
I am so very bad at proofreading my comments. That should read “influenced by their personalities” and the bit about the millionaire’s new partner being closer in age is irrelevant and I had meant to remove it. I’m going to have to self-impose a “no posting the comment until you read it 3 times” rule.
“I would probably be in jail if someone raped my mother. He better put himself in protective custody, cause if I knew him…he would be dead.”
But Brandon! Obviously she was wearing the wrong clothes, living in the wrong neighborhood, and didn’t carry a gun! Why would you want to avenge someone who obviously didn’t take basic, obvious, and easy precautions???
@Wetherby: Actually, it is a very small group of people, feminists, that tend to dislike me. Most people tend to like me.
@Voip: Actually, I have read hundreds of books. It’s what I did when I had to take the MBTA into work every day. Everything from technical books to philosophy to fiction.
Is it me or does this site just appeal to people that have been abused or raped? It’s so sad.
Huh, concern trolling. That’s a new one.
“Is it me or does this site just appeal to people that have been abused or raped?”
I have neither been abused nor raped. Why am I here?
That’s not important; what’s important is that by posting here, DKM believes that you’ve given cause to get murdered, a position Brandon is completely fine with.
Brandon – “Is it me or does this site just appeal to people that have been abused or raped? It’s so sad.”
….Yeeee-aaaaaah. Okay there, Brandon, Master of Context.
“what’s important is that by posting here, DKM believes that you’ve given cause to get murdered”
But I am much loved! =o
Brandon: @Pecunium: I am not excusing the men and I hold them 100% responsible for their crimes.
Bullshit.
@DKM: Just give up man. There is no point in debating the commenters here.
They seem to lack the ability to understand your point. I get it and I don’t see the cognitive dissonance they think these two supposedly mutual excursive ideas would cause.
In a perfect world, there would be no murder, rape, assault, etc… and while that is the ideal, utopia, we will never fully snuff those crimes out. Well, as long as humans have the ability to feel emotions.
The bit about understanding why a person might kill or rape is not the same as actually approving that behavior.
That last is true, but it’s not what Meller is doing. You are being approving of Meller’s argument in this quotation, which means you are being an apologist for him, and by extention his position that attacking women who advocate for feminist positions is a reasonable response to that provocation.
This is, to remind you, what you are defending:
The next time that you feminists crybaby about rape, spousal abuse, domestic violence, or any other instance of hostility and brutality expressed against women, do the men of this world a favor, and just look over some of your posts right here on manboobz.com!
Even if it IS a man who commits the violent assault, even if HE is responsible for the attack (or is it a counterattack?) against the feminist, and even if he, and NOBODY ELSE is held to blame, I think that some of the posts here, showing how HATEFUL feminists can be, will remind youall of something!
Do feminists deserve being beaten, raped, or killed for their contempt for (possibly) troubled men? No, Could it become understandable, given the venom and bitterness exuded by such hateful “females”? Maybe the poor bastard (otherwise as gentle as a lamb) was simply driven over the edge!
Note the qualifiers in that phrase (the one you said has no cognitive dissonance), “even if HE is respsonsible (or is it a counterattack?)and even if he, and NOBODY ELSE is held to blame, I think that some of the posts here, showing how HATEFUL feminists can be, will remind youall of something!”
That’s what you said was a reasonable position. One you understood and agreed with. “even if”, and, “or was it a counterattack”.
A counterattack to what? To words.
That’s the thing you are making apologia for. That’s the sort of thing you frequently do.
In this case it’s you saying that it’s understandable why men would attack women for being feminists. You are an apologist for, just as you have been for rape.
Wetherby: @Wetherby: And I am not getting all in a huff about you or others judging me. I can’t make you think anything about me, so I just be who I want to be and let the chips fall where they fall. What you and others think of me is not my problem…but theirs.
See that, you have a problem. The same one lots of people who know Brandon only from what he says have. It’s strange, inn’t, that so many people have so similar a take on him.
…Buh. What? First of all, it doesn’t; the thing about predominantly feminist spaces is a) they can be a safe haven survivors of abuse might seek out and b) they make it relatively safe to reveal and talk about abuse that you might not feel comfortable discussing anywhere else. I say “relatively”, because people like you sometimes show up. However, that does not mean everyone here is an abuse survivor.
But could you kindly explain what in the rotten hells you mean about it being sad? Because it looks to me like you’re dismissing the victims of abuse as being pathetic. Which… is low even for you, and I hope I’ve actually read you wrong here.
It’s2011: [quote]most straight and bi women would prefer a non-creepy ordinary man they get along with to a creepy underwear model millionaire they dislike.[/quote]
Really? I’ve seen (and read many accounts of) quite the opposite. Whenever I get along well with a woman (and I’m not a millionaire or underwear model looking dude) and we like each other, it’s always “LJBF” (Let’s Just Be Friends). Then the women fawn over some underwear model looking, or rich, dude. Then they complain to me about “why are guy’s such a*%holes?”. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Sounds like a personal problem. In my experience (as a guy who has never been wealthy, and mostly been a bit below the national average for income) women who like me, like me. They stick around until the situation changes. I’ve never been left because of money. I’ve never had someone leave me for someone else.
Brandon: @Bee: When did I say never have any friends? Oh…when I said you should be more discriminating with whom you hang out with. The idea of living by yourself is just completely ridiculous I guess. Even though millions of people do it…it’s just a stupid idea to you.
Nice Reductio ad absurdum though.
It’s the one you wrote.
“Is it me or does this site just appeal to people that have been abused or raped?”
Poor Brandon, he thinks we’re all broken because we think he’s a victim-blaming douchecanoe. *pats Brandon on the head* It’s just cuz you’re a selfish asshole, sweetie–we’re fine.