Men’s Rights site A Voice for Men offers $1000 “bounty” for personal information on Swedish feminists
A Voice for Men, one of the most influential and popular Men’s Rights websites, is now offering a $1000 “bounty” for anyone able to track down the personal information of several Swedish women involved in a tasteless video advertising a theater production based on Valarie Solanas’ SCUM manifesto. As the anonymous poster calling himself John the Other – the second-in-command at AVfM – put it in a posting yesterday (emphasis in original):
We are asking for the full legal names, home addresses, places of employment, email addresses and contact phone numbers of the women and man who produced and starred in the video described above. We will pay 1000 dollars to any individual who provides and confirms this information, to be paid either directly to themselves or to a charity of their choice.
John explains that this information will be posted on the AVfM-affiliated site Register-Her.com, an “offenders database” that is being used to vilify individual feminists and “Fuck Their Shit Up,” as AVfM head honcho Paul Elam likes to put it. John notes that Regsiter-Her.com also intends to post the “government identification numbers [and] drivers licences” of the women they are able to identify.
John admits plainly that posting such information may put the physical safety of these women at risk from vigilante violence. As he puts it (emphasis mine):
Some individuals may criticize the intent to publish not only names, but also addresses, phone numbers, employers and other personal information – on the grounds that such exposure create a risk of retributive violence against individuals who openly advocate murder based on sex. It is the considered position of the editorial board of AVfM that any such risks are out-weighed by the ongoing hazard to the public of these individuals continuing to operate in anonymity.
The comments posted on the article at AVfM suggest that such “retributive” violence is a real possibility. Indeed, here’s the very first comment (which currently has 17 upvotes from readers of the site):
A commenter called Xnomolos, in another upvoted comment, adds:
i would love to hunt down these women myself.
JinnBottle responds to this comment by advising “all men to start carrying guns.”
The commenters on AVfM have already uncovered the identities of all of the women involved in the video. The blogger Fidelbogen has been the most active internet detective so far.
There is no question that the video itself is offensive, and designed to provoke. You can see it here; I’m not going to embed it on this site. If you don’t want to watch it: it depicts a young woman shooting a man in the head for no reason. Afterwards the woman and her gleeful, giggling accomplices do a victory dance, then lick the blood from the dead man’s head. A message at the end urges viewers to “Do Your Part.”
Every feminist I know who has seen the video has been appalled by it. I’m appalled by it. It’s hateful, and it’s wrong.
But John the Other, and the other commenters on AVfM, claim that it is more than this: that that the video of the staged murder, intended to provide publicity for a theater production based on Solanas’ notorious SCUM manifesto, is quite literally an open call for the murder of men. As John the Other puts it:
Open advocation of murder cannot be allowed in a civil society, without that society devolving into a culture of brutal violence.
Evidently he has no problem with, or has somehow not noticed, the comments on AVfM fantasizing about shooting and killing the women involved in the video.
Is the video a literal call to murder? Is it, as one AVfM commenter puts it, evidence of a “conspiracy to commit mass murder?” No. Violence and murder have been dramatized in the theater since its beginnings. No one accuses Sophocles of advocating fratricide and incest, though both are dealt with in his play Oedipus Rex. No one accuses Shakespeare of advocating mass murder, though many of his most famous plays have body counts that put many horror films to shame.
Does the tag line at the end of the video – “do your part” – transform the video from a depiction of murder into an open call for it? No. The “threat,” such as it is, is vague; it’s not aimed at any specific individuals. It might be seen as akin to someone wearing a t-shirt that says “kill ‘em all, let God sort them out” – tasteless and offensive, but not a literal threat. “Kill ‘Em All” is actually the name of Metallica’s first album. While a lot of people see James Hetfield, Lars Ulrich et al as pompous idiots, they have not been jailed for conspiracy to commit mass murder. That would be ridiculous.
Someone claiming to have been involved in the SCUM-inspired theatrical production in question has posted several detailed comments on AVfM, explaining that those involved in the production are “not out to get you” and that the video itself was “meant as a viral “wtf?!” to give attention to both the questions that it raises and the play itself.”
By contrast, AVfM is targeting specific individuals, and intends to offer information that would allow anyone intent on doing them harm to quite literally track them to their homes and workplaces. Those fantasizing about killing these woman are not simply making a joke along the lines of “women, can’t live with ‘em; can’t kill ‘em.” They are fantasizing about killing real people, and providing would-be evil-doers maps to their doors.
AVfM is an American site, in English; these specific women live in Sweden. While it is a real possibility, it seems unlikely that anyone reading the site will literally find and murder any of those involved in the SCUM production. At least I hope that this does not come to pass.
I don’t believe that either Paul Elam or John the Other literally wants any feminist to be killed. The real intent behind AVfM’s publishing people’s personal information, it seems clear, is to intimidate feminist writers and activists into shutting up, to make clear that if they post something that offends the internet vigilantes at AVfM they will face the possibility of some deranged individual quite literally showing up at their door intent on doing them harm.
Paul Elam and John the Other claim that they’re not advocating violence. But they are playing a dangerous game here. If some deranged individual, inspired by the hyperbolic anti-feminist rhetoric on AVfM, and armed with information provided by “Register-Her.com,” murders or otherwise harms a feminist blogger or activist or video maker, Elam and his enablers will have blood on their hands. As will those MRAs who continue to publicly support and/or link to AVfM and/or Register-Her.com.
This is not the way a legitimate rights group deals with those who disagree with them. This is what hate groups do.
Posted on November 21, 2011, in antifeminism, misandry, misogyny, MRA, paul elam, threats, violence against men/women. Bookmark the permalink. 884 Comments.
*gets the popcorn and settles in for the fireworks*
…But seriously, David, I’m glad you posted this. Paul Elam and his buddies have been conducting repeated and systematic campaigns of intimidation against people who oppose them. They’ve been using their little “registry” as a threat to shut people up and as a blunt weapon against any woman they disapprove of. They’re bullies, they’re recklessly trying to goad others into violence, and they’re getting scarily wrapped up in the tiny little sense of “power” this gives them. I’m glad you’re speaking out against it.
What they’re doing is horrifying, it’s dangerous, and despite my joke about the comments this might bring, it’s not a game.
It’s vital to remember Paul Elam’s concept of “self defense” here, and appropriate response. He has no concept that excalation and excessive force is a bad idea. He claims that you have the right to incapacitate anyone who slaps you, and that this is self defense. ON the comments section of that blog post, dealing with the horrific beating by a fast food worker of a customer that had slapped him, the MRA’s were overwhelmingly in favor if this concept – You have the right to DO ANYTHIGN , because THEY STARTED IT, and THEY MIGHT DO ANYTHING. A person even brought up that legally, for example, in the eyes of the law and in the you are not really allowed to just shoot someone in the face for slapping you, “in self defense” in general.
They then claimed it was because the feminized courts “don’t understand real world violence” – In other words, slap equals shoot, get them before they get you. It’s not about the right to self defense for these guys, it’s about fear, and hatred, and “The Right To Make Them Think Twice” – IN this worldview, of course, publishing the real names of people who made a fictional video is that, exactly. Get them before they get you. And if somebody takes them out, well, who knows what they could have been planning. Who knows what they could have done? They weren’t encouraging it. But they did have the right to make them think twice. These guys feel attacked. And this is what they do when they feel that way.
Anonymity is no joke. It’s really too bad that I know for a fact that a breach of it is only a tort offense.
How about incitement?
AVfM’s nudge-nudge wink-winks about what they want their readers to do are getting less and less subtle. They want someone to commit violence against these women, and they’re trying to provide information to make that easier. This isn’t just about violating anonymity–at what point is it a crime to encourage and aid your readers to commit violence against specific people?
This scares the shit out of me, to be honest. I’m a feminist blogger about men’s issues. I’m exactly who they want to target. :/ I know I’m small fish, but… it still scares me.
They’re also, and I’m a little nervous saying this, complete cowards. Despite all their talk about how “men can be jailed for no reason,” they’re not willing to take any action that might actually put them in jail. They’re just hoping someone will take the fall for them. They’re misogyny chickenhawks desperate to find the next Breivik or Sodini to do their dirty work.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad they’re hiding behind their computers, but I’m also a little sickened by it.
One of the production team, JohnnyKarhinen, has posted on the thread (and his substantial first post has been pushed through the floor in down votes) and immediately Paul Elam marches in with “Please provide us with your address, telephone number, place of employment, etc.”
It’s a witch hunt, pure and simple.
I don’t know, Senator McCarthy, they all look suspicious to me…
Fucking vile evil hate group. There’s not much more I can say.
The MRM, so peaceful compared to the feminist movement! Oh wait, it is the other way around completely…
Murderous morons, the lot of them.
I hope someone finds Paul Elam’s info and posts it.
This is just fucking shameful. This is not how grown adults settle their differences. At least it shouldn’t be.
Not a crime until someone is shot at, in effect. Unless I’m misremembering.
Gosh, he’s such a moderate and thoughtful MRA.
Well, look, not that I condone this (I argued with Paul Elam about the morality of RH on Reddit), but these women actually are almost inciting violence themselves. I’m pretty sure AVfM would not be doing this to any standard feminist bloggers.
I know in my gut two things. 1) the majority of these fuckheads are snuff film consumers, and see nothing wrong with them when the REAL victims are animals, women, or minorities. 2) when the inevitable violence happens, they’re going to throw their hands up and say “WE didn’t commit the violence. Sure, we tracked down their identities and addresses, but we certainly don’t condone violence! And the guy who did the violence is crazy and NOT affiliated with us. And you’re all mean girls/manginas for suggesting it’s our fault.”
In the event that someone actually did track down and kill one of the people involved in that video, can Elam et al be charged with conspiracy to commit murder? You’d think so, if they had any direct communication with the actual killer.
The goal is harassment and intimidation. It is despicable.
Their goal is to rile up the next George Sodini and point him at the targets of their choice. I think they honestly want to recruit a murderer.
And yet when women talk about receiving threats from internet misogynists, we are told we’re imagining it.
I notice that NWO’s exhortations to people to “just not kill” are apparently not going to be applied to the folks Elam and friends are trying to recruit to kill on their behalf.
Eventually Elam and his band of thugs will harass and bully someone with the means to crush them like the bugs they are. Their beatstick won’t work forever.
So, how many of our trolls will be saying the MRM is totes not a hate group now?
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
They’re a pretty small group.
…Although to make up for it they’re extra stupid.
Aint that the fucking truth.
I admit that I frankly got some pleasure out of seeing the coward “Vliet Tiptree” outed. I only think that’s where it should have ended. The name, I mean The home addresses, phone numbers, etc., I have a real problem with that.
What next? Are they going to burn Daniel Radcliffe at the stake as a sorcerer because they saw him fly a broomstick on the big screen?
This is disgusting. Is it possible to report these bullies to someone? I mean, by providing that kind of information wouldn’t they technically be accomplices if someone did act on it?
I’ve been watching too much Law and Order recently – Should anyone get shot, I think DA Ben Stone has them on Murder 2, “Depraved Indifference to Human Life.”
But I am not even a TV lawyer, and they are seriously fucking frightening.
MRAL, so if they come for you, let’s say because you post here, you’ll be OK with just your name being exposed?
I’m not a hatemonger with a public platform, so I don’t think I deserve it.
Of course they would. Maybe they haven’t yet (anybody know?), but “standard feminist bloggers” deal with this shit all the time.
I don’t think they can be accomplice as long as nothing as happened. And even then, tying to it wouldn’t be easy. It reminds me of these two families where parents beat a kid to death. In each house they found the same book who says that if you love your children, god want you to beat them. The writer will never be arrested, even though he gave advice on how to molest your child.
The fact it’s *obvious* they’re pushing people to violence doesn’t mean they will ever have to take responsibility.
Sad.
Said under a pseudonym, ladies and gents.
Oh, and FTR, Vliet Tiptree *has* legal means, and is using them. So you called, Hellkell! XD
@Rutee, good for her! XD
“I don’t think they can be accomplice as long as nothing as happened. And even then, tying to it wouldn’t be easy. It reminds me of these two families where parents beat a kid to death. In each house they found the same book who says that if you love your children, god want you to beat them. The writer will never be arrested, even though he gave advice on how to molest your child.
The fact it’s *obvious* they’re pushing people to violence doesn’t mean they will ever have to take responsibility.”
Is that the book written by Mike and Debbie Pearl? I’ve heard about them. I wouldn’t use their ‘advice’ to train a dog, much less a child.
I see what you mean, though. It’s just frustrating. I feel like those women should at least be warned about this.
It’s illegal to post someone’s name on the Internet? I don’t have a problem with it. With people like her, it’s all about humiliation of the individual, without any thought toward “intimidation” or whatever. That’s why I would only release her name. That’s plenty, in my estimation.
Good. I’m glad your rage hesitates when there’s an actual risk that someone might get hurt. That’s to your credit, it really is. It puts you a step ahead of NWO, DKM, and apparently all of AVfM.
But your statements so far on this thread remind me of how young you really are.
What you’re seeing is a real hate group in action. Someone offended them – and the movie was genuinely offensive, no denying it – and now they want that person hurt. Maybe dead. Definitely living in fear of the stalkers that might find their way to their doors. They want the power to intimidate and silence people they find offensive. They want women to be afraid that if they say something that offends AVfM, someone will show up at their house with a gun someday. And they want all of this to happen in a way that leaves their own hands clean.
Compare it to what you’ve seen on this site. Decide who the real bad guys are.
I’m surprised nobody mentioned freedom of speech. For all the yammering MRAs do about freedom of speech and freedom overall, they are the ones who try to silence the free speech of others.
I do not condone this video, nor do I condone any supposed feminist who says misandric things. They do not represent me or my views. However as much as I disagree, they still have the rights to their views. Since the internet is not regulated, what right do they have to play internet police? also where is AVfM on all the racist hate speech on the internet? why aren’t they on a witch hunt for internet racist groups? and like I mentioned in previous comments in other threads, where is their outrage at HOLLYWOOD blockbuster horror films depicting brutal violence with misogynistic undertones? SCUM is a disgusting book but so are books by Marquis de Sade and films have been made based on his life and books. Why aren’t they calling out for those directors?
This is nothing but a tactic to scare their “enemy” into shutting up. I seriously have a bad feeling about all this, given the angry violent rhetoric we’ve seen from many MRAs.
For everyone who is saying that feminists are evil/bad/nasty/etc… I want to reiterate one question posted earlier. What feminists are doing this? What feminists are going around rounding up MRA peeps and trying to find their personal info?
All it takes is for one of those posted on register-her to get attacked… Just one, and they’ll get the war they’re looking for. They shouldn’t be shocked, though, when the police don’t buy whatever story they’re gonna cook up.
*seethe*
And this is when the majority of MRAs, who claim to not be part of a hate group, who claim to be fighting for the rights of a disenfranchised group of people, need to step up and condemn what’s happening here. I’m going to go ahead and not hold my breath.
MRAL, I’m glad to see you’re not endorsing this.
Victoria — EXACTLY. The people who really need to be speaking out about this are the ones who can say “I think men sometimes get a raw deal in the courts and we need better education for boys, but holy shit, I didn’t sign on for THIS.”
There’s got to be people who identify as MRAs, who have their issues with women, but still realize it’s fucked up to be placing goddamn bounties on people. I really hope some of them speak up.
I think men sometimes get a raw deal in the courts and we need better education for boys, but putting bounties on people is a damn terrible idea.
…Of course, they hate my guts, so. :)
@Ozy
Another thing I keep thinking is that $1000 could have been used towards a shelter for men, or towards creating a men’s charity or college scholarship. But what do we know right?
Boys already are fawned over in the school system. The problem appears to be more in their culture, similar to how a major barrier to entry for women in science is women’s own gender-policing (Except women *also* face institutional bias in some sciences, though by no means all).
And men only get a raw deal in the criminal courts, in the US; that’s bad, but it’s not the entire court system by a long shot, mercifully.
*puts feet up to watch the chaos, cracks beer*
What’s the proper law-enforcement agency to report this to? The FBI? Is there a Swedish equivalent? Because, yo, they’re supposed to monitor hate groups.
The SPLC has good information on what to do with hate groups, but they’re not law enforcement. The national borders make this tricky, so I’m afraid I don’t have a good answer.
@Brandon:
You know what they say, some people just like to watch the world burn.
I don’t defend register-her.com, and I’ve actively stated that people should not be put on it for having opinions. I even stated that I don’t think Amanda Marcotte should be on it (and I fucking hate Marcotte). That being said, the following statement I found interesting.
“…Every feminist I know who has seen the video has been appalled by it. I’m appalled by it. It’s hateful, and it’s wrong…”
Would every feminist you know (or any feminist you know) care about the video but for the $1000 bounty on the ladies who made the video? No. BTW, assuming it is true that you believe that there might be some danger to this posting, the same thing can be said for sex offenders, some of which were eighteen year old boys fucking their seventeen year old girlfriends.
But, you shouldn’t have your panties in a twist. After all, I’ve been lead to believe that there is no activism in the MRM.
@kirby: This isn’t the world burning. This is watching two groups of people fighting. Its like a political boxing match and I get to be a spectator.
Brandon didn’t stick the flounce? Color me surprised.
Hey, David, can we get Brandon’s IP address up in here? Since posting all kinds of personal shit on someone you dislike is hilarious and beerworthy, I’m sure he won’t mind.
Can you be less stupid, Mags? Why do you assume feminists are automatically okay with sex offender registries? Mind, this spectre you’re raising isn’t a common one, but I think it’s harmful because it’s another part of the vengeful punishment vibe our justice system is focused on, not because my primary fear is for the rare 18 year olds on this list for fucking their girlfriends. You’re not undermining the idea behind a registry when you use that as your primary argument, you only say some people are unjustly on the list. The lists are a bad idea because they make integration into the community, one of the few factors strongly correlated with a decrease in recidivism, much more difficult.
This isn’t activism. It’s hatemongering.
@Magdelyn:
Probably, under your definition, we still don’t care about the video. If pressed, we’ll reiterate that we don’t like it, but we’re not gonna crusade against it even now. The point is the bounty, not the video, that’s what we care about.
And so I ask. Your point?
Also… “panties in a twist?” Really? Not all of us wear panties here.
Rutee, not to mention that it’s a complete nonsequitur: “There are sex offender registries, therefore it’s OK to stalk and threaten people!” What?
@mythago: I will give it to you myself: 166.197.33.113
BTW, it gives out wrong info. I am not near Wichita, Kansas but in Massachusetts.
Sorry, this is what, again?
Brandon, based on your past posting history of lying your ass off, if you said the sky was blue it’d be a wise Manboobz poster who would look out the window to check.
@mythago: Whatever.
Oh, and no, I explicitly don’t care about the video. It’s an ad for the SCUM manifesto play, playing in Sweden. Unless I find out they’re doing the play to drum up support for SCUM as it is commonly remembered now, and is successful, I’m never going to care that it’s being performed. Given who released it, it’s more “Haw Haw Feminists” than anything else.
To care about this video would require me to care about every violent trailer ever. I’m not going to do that.
@Magdelyn
I dont think feminists even knew about this video until MRAs brought it up. Know why? because feminists don’t troll the internet looking for misandry. They don’t even do it for misogyny. If they did I’d have expected to see tons of angry blog posts about 4chan or Encyclopedia Dramatica (ever read the page on women there?) MRAs however, do troll the net and try to use whatever extreme piece of writing or video they find as “proof” that all feminists hate men. Thus when it’s brought to our attention we’ll disagree or express disgust at it, much to the dismay of MRAs who want so bad to believe all feminists despise men.
*puts feet up to watch the chaos, cracks beer*
brandon, you understand if you were actually as above-it-all as your attention getting stunts are designed to suggest you wouldnt reflexively show up here to announce it, right.
seriously, if you actually didn’t care, you’d leave this place to people as clever as you want to believe you are.
Sex offender registries have plenty of issues, but they are not the same as these slipshod websites made by random douchebags on the internet. For one thing, they involve full due process through the criminal law system concluding in a conviction or a guilty plea. You know that whole “innocent until proven guilty” bit? Well, they’ve been proven guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt, in a court of law. So stop playing false equivalencies.
Personally I just got the impression they were trying hard do something shocking and controversial. Its just typical of young people (mostly) to do something like that regardless of gender. Look at Human Centipede for fucks sake. Is that film a call for people to create actual human centipedes?
@Sharculese: When did I ever say I was “above it all”?
lolwhat
reaaaalllly brandon, youre reealllly gonna play ‘show me on the doll where i huffed and puffed about everyone who wasnt as super rational and clever as brandon’?
Brandon *puts feet up to watch the chaos, cracks beer*
But condemn it… says he nothing.
That video literally made me sick to my stomach. Who the hell would make something like that?
This call for blood, though — and it IS a call for blood, make no mistake — is absolutely chilling. The MRM can’t fund raise for charities, create mens shelters, or raise awareness about unfairness in the courts, but they can put a bounty on the heads of people they really don’t like. Awesome.
But David, I’m going to disagree with you here. That video is a call for murder. They may not have “literally” meant it, just has sarah palin didn’t “Liiterally” mean to target democratic senators, but we need to hold renegade left people to the same standards as renegade right. Which is to say, using your words;
I mean the publisher who initially distributed the manuscript, which he titled SCUM, and may have been the genesis f the “Society for Cutting Up Men” backronym. He found in the writer’s house after she died.