You lying bitches wouldn’t know misogyny if it bit you on your ass.
This has nothing to do with the post. I just thought it was adorable.
This whole “mocking misogyny” thing? Apparently we’re doing it all wrong. Over on Reddit’s Men’s Rights Subreddit, jmnzz has helpfully explained what misogyny is, and what it isn’t.
Misogyny: The hatred of women
Not misogyny: Bad taste jokes about rape/abuse/etc. Logic. Counterarguments. Disagreements. Harsh language. Saying cunt. Saying bitch. Calling women names. Being pro-life. Calling every woman who accuses a man of rape a liar.
Why are none of these things misogyny? Because you do not have to hate women to do any or all of these things. You might, but not everyone who does them hate women.
Seriously. What on earth is misogynist about calling all the fucking cunts who accuse men of rape of being goddamn lying bitches? When guys call women lying whores, they do it out of love.
But hey, in all seriousness, I have to give Maggie props here for actually raising the issue of misogyny in r/mensrights.
NOTE: THIS POST MAY CONTAIN …..
Posted on November 11, 2011, in evil women, false accusations, I'm totally being sarcastic, kitties, misogyny, MRA, reddit. Bookmark the permalink. 325 Comments.
The cat in that photo is adorable. I think I’ll focus on that cat and not the text and make my day 20 percent happier in the process.
I swear I’m going to lose my mind at the stupidity of these Übermenschen.
“I don’t hate women, I just think that they are worthless lying whore cunt bitches. I also believe that rape doesn’t exist, because the worthless lying whore cunt bitches are making it up 100% of the time. But I swear I don’t hate women. I’m completely indifferent, which is why I can’t stop talking about how women are worthless lying whore cunt bitches.”
Yep. And I own all these guitars and related equipment because I’m indifferent to music. I have five bookshelves full of books because I hate reading. I eat because I’m not hungry.
Yes. One kitty per manboobz post =)
Perhaps we need another word for these Reddit guys since misogyny is not correct.
pansy, I have NINE plus six tubs full of books. That is how much I hate reading. :P
Wyfhassery?
Misandry: the hatred of men
Not misandry: child support. admitting the existence of domestic abuse. women’s sports. abortion. birth control. school buses.
Also not misandry: a woman being able to choose who she fucks.
Wow, he has given himself the power to define what misogyny is. That’s an interesting idea. Here, I have declared myself to be the empress of language and from now on “grilled cheese sandwich” will be used to refer to sneezing. The foods we used to call grilled cheese sandwiches will be now be called “snurggles”. Anyone who argues with my new definitions should be ashamed of themselves for being so wrong.
People usually language-police the term “misogyny” because misogynists are bad and they are not bad therefore the only things that count as misogyny are people screaming at the top of their lungs that they hate women, not any of the behaviours that the language-police officer exhibits. Which shows a huge lack of understanding of both language, and, you know, how humans interact.
Oh good, now that he has mansplained to me, I can go about my day with a sense of clarity, not to mention peace of mind! I can finally go back to laughing at those (non)jokes. I can heartily agree when I am arbitrarily called a bitch or [Seaward]. My life will be so much easier now that he has slapped the blinders right back on me. Why oh why was I not living in such oblivious, ignorant comfort before? Maybe he can also go ahead and define racism for all those PoC so their lives can be simpler, too! We all know that guys, and potentiall white guys, have the best sense of what is and is not discrimination towards groups they do not belong to, and never will!
Not misandry: Bad taste jokes about rape/abuse/etc. Logic. Counterarguments. Disagreements. Harsh language. Saying cunt. Saying bitch. Calling men names. Being pro-life. Calling every man who accuses a woman of rape a liar.
This is what Regender gave me. Those highlighted parts really do seem like misandry to me. (That’s not to say that I think that’s all the misogyny we could find in the original.)
Intent! It’s fucking magic!
(I love this essay & realizing the point of it I think is an important step for anyone concerned about the various oppressions)
http://genderbitch.wordpress.com/2010/01/23/intent-its-fucking-magic/
Plus, did anyone ever claim that logic and counterarguments were misogyny? If so, where?
What makes my head spin the most is that they can on the one hand dismiss the mountains of misogyny in the world, and on the other spin misandry almost entirely out of thin air. I mean, I’ve seen genuine straight-up no question misandry… like a couple of dozen times in my lifetime, versus the literal near-daily misogyny that I see. And I don’t even get out much these days.
But I guess when you’re one of the manzly menz you can just make up reality to suit you. UGH.
What gets me is that they don’t seem to understanding the meaning of the term “hate” either.
All of the things on that list that are not being used as mere buzzwords (come on, we all know you aren’t being called a misogynist for debates about formal logic rules) are strong indicators of, or are per se, loathing, antipathy, hostility, etc.
Wow, I just went over to that thread, the whole section where he says women are dogs? Yeah, no hatred of women going on there at all (rolls eyes)
Hell, Dave “If you look at her and see anything besides emptiness, fear and emotional hunger, you are looking at the parts of yourself which have been consumed to that point” Sim gets upset if you call him a misogynist. I don’t know why these guys don’t just own up to it, but whatever.
I mean, I’ve seen genuine straight-up no question misandry… like a couple of dozen times in my lifetime, versus the literal near-daily misogyny that I see. And I don’t even get out much these days.
Improbable Joe, agreed. And weirdly, most of the misandry I’ve encountered in my life has come from women who are NOT feminists, and would be horrified if you called them feminists. Yes, in my 35 years on this planet I’ve met one or two feminists who indulged in misandry, but significantly more women who are into a “traditional lifestyle” just flat out denigrate men. It’s bizarre.
“Plus, did anyone ever claim that logic and counterarguments were misogyny? If so, where?”
The problem is that wimminz and manginas don’t REALLY understand what “logic” and “counterarguments” are, so we incorrectly label them misogyny.
“Ms. X lied on her tax form, so she’s probably lying about being raped and where she got those bruises.”
Logical! Ms. X has lied in the past and so is therefore much more likely to lie in another situation. Those bruises and DNA evidence should be held in suspicion until we’re sure she didn’t fake those things. She didn’t run out of the room screaming? Definitely not likely to be rape. She lied about wanting sex (since it is much more likely, due to her previous lies; previous action determines future action) and then lied about revoking consent (“No” and “Stop” were also probably lies, meaning she wanted more) and she finally lied to the police!
Near as I can tell, that’s an MRM meme that originated at Shrink4men. Basically Tara J. Palmatier took one word out of context from a legitimate DV checklist and ran with it.
@mediumdave: So some hack distorted and misrepresented something in order to support an anti-feminist position. I guess when your position is stupid and evil, it can only be supported by lying.
I think I actually saw that before, come to think of it.
@Raincitygirl: what are we calling “misandry” from proponents of “traditional lifestyles”? You didn’t go into detail, but the first thing that popped into my head is the way some people will talk badly about men in order to reinforce the “need” for anti-woman strictures. You know, the way fundamentalist Muslims (including women) will claim that men are stupid and brutish and cruel, and therefore it is required of women to submit to their whims to prevent violence. It sounds like misandry, but the practical result is misogynistic.
I don’t always go out of my way to agree with reddit or other MRAs but in this case, they have a point. Why can’t men even if they are definitely NOT misogynists do any or all of the above actions, because they ( or men close to them) have been done bad by a woman–sometimes more than one–and they are expressing anger, frustration, or disgust at womens’ lies, cheating, exploitation of sex, backstabbing, or other sundry manipulation?
Men engage in such disreputable behavior too, on occasion, but when that happens, we never hear the end of it! Women, on the other hand, whether from misplaced chivalry, sympathy for the supposed ‘underdog’, or some other reasons, too often get what MRAs call a “p***ypass”, that is, a kind of suspension of judgement on their misconduct simply because the evildoer is a woman. manboobz is not the worst in doing this, but it does its share!
Hmmmm… thinking back. Most of the misandry I’ve seen in the last [some long number of years <39] comes from rape apologists (who imply men can't help be get all rape-y).
That and bad comedians/sit-coms… but since most of the "jokes" are based on "Men are all X" and "Women are all Y" I think that is just a fount of misanthropy rather than misandry/misogyny….
OT: You guys want to help me craft a response to this long, obnoxious defense of the Mississippi legislation? My thesis is that the legislation exists to be divisive and smear those who oppose it, as defended by this list of Hitler and Satan references related to the campaign. The response:
Wow, that kitty is indeed adorable. Now, if they had a similar photoshoppe moment and put a kitty behind Benny Greb’s drumset, I think I’d die of cute overload =3
ImprobableJoe, the context was actually a fundamentalist Christian one, and it wasn’t quite as extremist as saying men can’t help themselves but rape when immodestly-dressed women are around. Mind you, I totally agree that the *result* of the misandrist tendencies was to reinforce misogyny.
It was more stuff about how men are hopeless in the kitchen, or diapering babies, or how men refuse to wear front-facing baby carriers because they’re not manly. Which, to me in my liberal enclave in the city, was RIDICULOUS. I see lots of dads with snugglies strapped to their chests, and I’m positive they can’t all be gay. And the end result, of course, was to reinforce gender roles and let men off the hook when it comes to cooking, cleaning and childcare.
An old high school friend of mine once said wistfully that she kind of misses teaching (her job before she was a stay-at-home-mom), but she couldn’t possibly expect her husband to pick up the slack if she went back to work. The poor dear just wouldn’t know how. And I was once at a fundamentalist baby shower for a different old high school friend in which a married woman, in the midst of complaining about something hopelessly male her husband does (her words, not mine), said even though it’s a sin, she totally understands why women choose to become lesbians, because men are just so inarticulate and tough to handle.
And here’s me, very much NOT out to this crowd, thinking, “Uh, as the resident queer, I assure you lesbian relationships are a little more complicated than just being frustrated by men who won’t do housework.” Not that I actually SAID that, but I thought it pretty hard. And it tends to get interpreted as men CAN’T do housework, as opposed to men WON’T do housework. Which, to me, again, was ludicrous because I know plenty of straight couples where the men pull their weight in terms of housework and childcare. But those men aren’t fundamentalist Christians.
Raincitygirl, I just knew it had to be religious fundamentalists… it is a gift, like gaydar only ugly. :) Behind that whole “men can’t figure out housework” is the barely hidden “… and therefore some woman better go get me a beer while I sit and watch TV.” Which I’ve never understood, unless the guy moved straight from his mommy’s house to his home with his new properly subservient wife. Otherwise, at some point a man had to have lived alone. Did he somehow magically have the money to only eat prepared foods, have a laundry AND cleaning service, and I guess keep beer in a cooler built into the recliner since there was no one to bring him one?
Of course, this also leads to the problem of what happens when a man raised not to know how to do “women’s work” marries a woman who grew up too liberated to feel like she needed to learn “women’s work.” Now you have a household where nobody knows how to iron a shirt or bake some muffins or do basic cleaning stuff… joy!
Funny how you never see an MRA assert that he does all the cooking and cleaning because women are unfit for the task.
I went to Mars Hill Church for a while (long long ago) and I remember Mark Driscoll talking about how he couldn’t figure out how to turn on the vacuum and his 4-year-old daughter had to show him.
I couldn’t help wondering how he could say that without the slightest suspicion that he might just be a terrible lazy-ass excuse for a human being.
…Seriously? My vacuum has a big, yellow “on” button. It’s not that complicated.
And as for cooking and cleaning, I firmly believe that if you can read, you can figure it out. It doesn’t take mysterious special powers to make cupcakes. (If you want them to be spectacularly good ones, though, that takes skill.)
Wow, Mark Driscoll is admittedly dumber than a small child. Whether than is because he is literally less intelligent than his child, or also because he believes owning a vagina comes with instant knowledge of the vacuum arts, it is impossible for me to say. What I can say is that he has a douche hairstyle… yeah, I can judge people pretty well by their hair.
“Perhaps we need another word for these Reddit guys since misogyny is not correct.”
“Asshole” works. Or “hypocrite”, since apparently almost anything a woman does can be considered misandry.
Maybe Driscoll has a Dyson. Those have two buttons, one for the power and one to turn the brush on and off. Maybe that’s what threw him?
This is reminding me of all the stories about how David Beckham got stuck inside his own horse barn because he couldn’t figure out how to open the latch. I bet these guys would think those jokes were based on misandry, too, rather than on the cultural trope that pretty people and athletes are stupid.
Still, unless you have some sort of developmental problem, it doesn’t take two X chromosomes to be able to vacuum, or cook at an amateur level, or wash the dishes.
Hell, picking up after yourself and feeding yourself is something all functional adults ought to be able to do. Dismissing it as “women’s work” is just excusing laziness.
Of the two married fundamentalist Christian women I know well (old school friends), one’s husband still lived with his parents before he got married, so his mum did his cooking and cleaning. The other’s husband had an apartment, but his mum lived close by and used to come by to clean and drop off casseroles. For realz.
I actually know a third fundamentalist Christian woman, although she’s actually not a friend of mine, but of my little sister’s. This woman, we’ll call her “Aeryn” (because it’s not her name), subscribes to the principle of Biblical headship. In other words, she expects her husband “John” to make all the big decisions for the family, and they base this expectation on Scripture. The only snag is that John is the most mild-mannered, indecisive guy I have ever had the privilege of meeting. Theoretically he takes all the decisions, but in a practical sense, Aeryn (who is very decisive) tells him what to think and do. According to my sister, they’re happy, so obviously it works for them.
Where it gets dicey is that Aeryn and John recommend using the principle of Biblical headship in ALL relationships, not just their own (fireworks ensued when she told my sister that’s why her relationship failed, and that’s how I know all this stuff, because my sister told me when she and Aeryn were temporarily not on speaking terms). It’s all very well for Aeryn to subscribe to this theory. SHE happens to have the kind of husband who asks her who to vote for before he goes to the polling station. But I know quite a few guys who would glom onto a principle like that and use it to get their own way all the time.
Oh, and even though John is the meekest guy that ever meeked, Aeryn still does all the housework and cooking.
P.S. Some of these Redditers seem like prime candidates for a Roomba. Or a housework-doing robot.
These are the masters of technology, folks.
Katz, did you live in Seattle? The main MH church was in my old ‘hood, those people are frightening.
Pyena, it is excusing laziness while also being dismissive and insulting towards women, AND seems to carry some sort of weird hate/entitlement thing beyond both of those. Men get to be both incapable of those jobs AND too good for them. Which is weird, because that would be like whining that you’re too weak to pick up a heavy object while bragging that you are too good to get your hands dirty. I mean, I guess you can do that but it isn’t exactly flattering.
Plus, well… the best housekeepers in the world are the United States Marine Corps, male and female. I can run a floor buffer, scrub a toilet, and put a razor-sharp crease in a T-shirt or a pair of socks if necessary… and I didn’t magically forget all that when I was discharged or when I got married. I’d say that any guy who can’t or won’t cook and clean for himself and/or his family isn’t much of a man.
” I bet these guys would think those jokes were based on misandry, too, rather than on the cultural trope that pretty people and athletes are stupid.”
And what they’d fail to acknowledge is that most feminists think it is a stupid, damaging trope too. No one should be bombarded with images that tell them they’re bumbling buffoons who can’t manage to cook a pack of Ramen or clean the bathroom. It’s stupid and demeaning.
Wait, how do we know what kind of vacuum cleaner Mark Driscoll has?
A lot of the “women’s work” idea, I think, arises because certain men don’t understand that choosing the work you want can be self-indulgent. They think that because they work hard in a career they chose and like, they’ve done their fair share, and that the other stuff must therefore fall to someone else; I don’t know whether they think that women like doing housework or that it just doesn’t matter.
hellkell, I lived in Kirkland. I was going through a conservative phase in college, I think out of sheer obstinacy.
katz, we don’t know what kind of vacuum cleaner Driscoll has. I’m guessing he doesn’t either. I’m also guessing that his story never happened, since lying is the primary form of communication in fundie Christian circles.
The way my parents split housework, my dad would do the vacuuming (among other chores), so as a kid I always thought it was a manly chore. C’mon, it makes loud noises! And the vacuum is slightly heavy! IT ALL MAKES SENSE! :D
Housework robot. There is a group of MRAs who are interested in exploring the questions involved in whether or not women–or at least feminists–can be replaced with automation?
I’m not saying that they all will be, but on the oher hand…
Given the progress we have seen in the past two or three centuries, I hardly think that this would be impossible. What will happen to human females (except for those few unusually gifted in the feminine arts of charm, allure, playfulness, soothing tranquilityl, and domestic excellence? The prevalence of misogyny seems to be telling you that too many men are already starting to consider most females (especially of the feminist variety) useless when not destructive, and destructive when not useless!
Food for thought!
My husband is way neater than me, and actually likes cleaning, so more power to him. I’ll happy dust and do the bathrooms if it means never vacuuming again.
I missed this, but this does explain my husband:
So does nobody want to help me reply to my Google Plus friend?
My wife’s a better cook than I am, and enjoys it. So I do the vacuuming, which I admittedly enjoy less, but it’s fair and balances things out nicely.
And yes, it has a big ON switch – so big that I can operate it with my foot – and aside from pointing the nozzle in the right place* and making sure that it doesn’t suck up anything valuable, and changing the bag once in a while, that’s pretty much all the skill it takes. I think I’ve more or less mastered it by now.
*Speaking of which…
Maybe men are just AFRAID OF THE NOISE THE VACUUM MAKES OH NOOOOO
They already want robot wives. The important thing is they don’t develop artificial intelligence for their robots, or else the robots will head for the hills.
OMS, I just had a odd thought… what if all the robot wives turn out to be robot lesbians, and decide to leave the menz and move in with each other?!?!
David, There is a difference between “All women are cunts” and “X woman is a cunt”. The former is misogynistic while the latter isn’t. Just because you think one woman is a bitch, that doesn’t mean you think all women are bitches.
@bionicmommy: He didn’t grant himself the power to define misogyny…he is using the standard, approved definition of the word.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/misogyny#Noun
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/misogyny
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misogyny
So pretty much hatred, contempt or mistrust of women. Not woman or people but women as a group. So calling one woman a cunt does not make one a misogynist.
@katz, except, if you break down what anti-choicers ask for, their positions are almost always absolutely inconsitent with the notion of fetus as a person (actually, I would argue that they are totally inconsistent, because the logical outcome of that position is not prohibiting abortion either) and incredibly consistent with hating/wanting to control women’s sexuality.
To think taht a slang term for vagina is an insult requires contempt, hatred, or mistrust of women, you moron.
Oh, and just to head off this argument before it starts:
I don’t like the insult “Dick” either. It doesn’t reinforce a narrative that men are inferior, because no such narrative exists; therefore it is not as harmful. I still don’t like it, and don’t use it.
This is a viable theory, Brandon, and I suggest that you field-test it. Go to a heavily black neighborhood and start calling people the N-word. If they get upset, explain that you’re calling individual people the word, so it’s not racist.
Or go to a gay bar and start yelling “fag” and “dyke.” Explain that you’re not being homophobic because you’re calling individual people fags and dykes, which they deserve for being fags and dykes.
Do not return here until you can report back with your findings.
Thanks!
Indeed, inconsistency really is the only option–even as described by my friend, Phil Bryant is basically advocating passing the law and then acting contrary to it (fetuses are people, but it’s still OK to kill them in cases of rape).
Also…if 90% of the individual women one meets are disregarded as “cunts,” there is a key pattern developing.
Brandon, for one thing, using the word c*** as a way of belittling any woman is misoynistic. It’s a word meant to make women feel worthless and inferior to men. It treats a woman like her body parts are more important than her mind. I don’t care who the woman is directed toward; I don’t like it. I don’t like Sarah Palin or Ann Coulter, but I wouldn’t call either of them the c word.
Another thing that jmnzz said is
Honestly, I shouldn’t even have to explain why that’s misogynistic. Not all women are liars. Many women who say there were raped are telling the truth. Taking a default stance of “They’re all lying” only allows rapists to get away with rape. So I disagree with you Brandon. Jmnzz did give himself the power to define misogyny. He said he agreed with the textbook definition, but then turned around and said some vile, misogynistic bs wasn’t misogyny. Saying all female rape survivors are liars and calling women the c word is misogyny.
Also, “dick” is about 1% as offensive as “cunt.” Or less.
I’m imagining Brandon working for a female boss and calling her a ball-buster, and then saying “I never said women shouldn’t be in charge of men! It’s just this one particular boss happens to be a ball-buster! I don’t hate women!”
Indeed, inconsistency really is the only option–even as described by my friend, Phil Bryant is basically advocating passing the law and then acting contrary to it (fetuses are people, but it’s still OK to kill them in cases of rape).
Katz, fetuses (fetii?) also magically stop being people when a man doesn’t want to pay child support. In that case, some MRA’s actually advocate forced abortion. Which would suggest not only that fetuses aren’t people, but that women aren’t either.
Yes, Brandon, it does make you a misogynist, and if you’re too dense to get it that’s OK. I for one am tired of explaining shit to you.
@Shaenon: There is a difference between nigger and bitch/cunt/whore. For one, nigger is used to disparage someone for no other reason than their skin color. Calling one woman a bitch/cunt/whore is attacking/criticizing that individuals behavior. If I call a woman a bitch, that is attacking her behavior not something that she has no control over (like skin color).
The same is for using fag and dyke. Homosexuals can’t change that fact about them (well, unless your are a fundie christian).
So basically, there is a difference in attacking behavior vs inherit characteristics of someone.
@bionicmommy: Just because you feel worthless when someone calls you a cunt, that doesn’t mean that was the intention of the person who said that to you. They could have said it to piss you off, annoy you or any other reason. It isn’t always “I want this person to feel worthless”.
Brandon, you literally cannot be both as stupid as you pretend to be AND capable of working a keyboard. So either someone is helping you between adult diaper changes and wiping the drool off your chin, or you’re feigning ignorance in order to get a rise out of your betters.
No not really Brandon, gendered insults like those are attacking something she has no control over (her gender). Wait, why am I explaining this again? It won’t actually change his mind. Oh well.
I un-moderated some Mellerposts above. I’m taking him off moderation; he’s been behaving.
Oh, bullshit, Brandon. There are other ways to call out someone’s behavior without resorting to bitch/cunt/whore, unless you have a tiny, dull mind.
And that’s OK to you, isn’t Brandon? Do you really think a man call a woman a cunt just to “annoy” her? It’s to belittle and control.
But since this OK with you, when I call you an asshole, I’m just criticizing your behavior, not you as a person. Oh, no.
@Improbable Joe: Thanks for proving my point. By calling me stupid, you aren’t attacking something that I can not change but a characteristic that can be changed.
@Snowy: Ok so I can create a simple conversion chart so we remove the gender:
bitch = annoying, pushy, argumentative
cunt = a person you dislike
whore = an overly promiscuous person
This way we strip out any gendered words and focus solely on attacking the behavior
Brandon, in order for that chart to work, you’d have to overhaul the culture you don’t believe in.