“Please Killl Yourselves”: MRAs respond to #mencallmethings
Well, that was … instructive. The Twitter hashtag extravaganza that is #mencallmethings is still going strong. But I think at this point it’s safe to say that it has basically served it’s purpose: to highlight the obnoxious, obscene, often threatening misogynist shit that women who express their opinions about almost anything on the internet get in their inboxes or in comments online on a regular basis. Women with feminist blogs who actually call out this kind of misogyny get this sort of abuse basically every day.
Sady Doyle of Tiger Beatdown, who started up this hashtag campaign, explained in an eloquent and angry blog post why she did it: to point out how absolutely routine this sort of shit is. When she started her blog, she really hadn’t anticipated the sheer volume of vicious shit she’d get:
I got targeted. With threats, with insults, with smear campaigns, with attempts to threaten my employment or credibility or just general ability to get through the day with a healthy attitude and a minimal amount of insult.
The intent of all this abuse is simple: to intimidate. When someone says to a woman online “I hope you get raped with a chainsaw,” the point is to get her to shut up. The person who posts this sort of violent shit, Doyle notes,
hopes that the next time you sit down to write, you’ll remember that yikesy chainsaw-rape thing and think, “you know? Maybe this isn’t such a great idea. Maybe I don’t need to say this. Maybe I’ll piss someone off, and maybe it will be more than I can handle, and you know, maybe my thoughts on this topic just ARE NOT IMPORTANT ENOUGH for me to risk the headache/fear/irritation/distress/panic attack I know I will get.”
And then, when you say that aloud, they call you a whiny little girl who can’t handle the Internet. Because, of COURSE multiple chainsaw-rape comments aren’t a big deal! They’re just words! Sticks and stones! …
To you, my friends, I say: Fuck that noise. All of this matters. A hostile work environment matters. Being afraid of your own in-box matters. Deleting your blog because that’s the only way for you to have a normal, non-hate-filled life matters. “Accepting” that continual, virulent, hateful misogynist abuse is a pre-condition for being a lady who talks about thing, or for challenging sexism in any way, no matter who you are: That matters. And if you think we’re fragile, well. LET US COUNT THE WAYS we have hacked it, under conditions your pampered manly self just cannot imagine. LET US DEMONSTRATE FOR YOU the shit we wade through, every day, in order to talk about whether or not we liked that one “Community” episode or Lady GaGa album.
Naturally, critics of the whole hashtag campaign have done their best to minimize and dismiss this sort of routine harassment in exactly the ways that Doyle predicted they would.
The charming Ferdinand Bardamu of In Mala Fide responded to #mencallmethings with a bunch of obnoxious comments that conveniently proved basically every point Sady Doyle was trying to make with the hashtag in the first place. He started off with this bit of rapier wit:
He followed this up with a clumsy fat joke:
He continued on in this vein for awhile, so proud of his insightful critiques that he made a blog post about it.
Encouraged by Bardamu’s example, blogger PMAFT (Pro-Male/Anti-Feminist Technology) announced a #MenCallMeThings Trolling Contest. The highlight of his own contributions to this contest:
Over on Reddit’s Men’s Rights subreddit, c0mputar offered slightly more coherent, if equally misguided, response.
The reality is that most of the “misogyny” they face is just criticism to their feminist viewpoints. I see this a lot when I confront feminists arguments, present my arguments, and get called a misogynist, amongst other things characterized by misandry. It happens on both sides …
Really now? Here are some actual examples of comments posted on #mencallmethings (taken from a comment from Shaenon in the discussion here).
here’s some to start: ‘I’ll rape your mum, faggot fuck’ “I’ll come to your house and kill you”
#mencallmethings, impersonate me on FB, & make disgusting sexual comments, post my name & # when I helped organize Slutwalk
cunt, whore, ugly, disgusting, cold, feminazi, shut the fuck up bitch, manipulative, crazy, playing the victim, sociopath
Bitch, whore, being sensitive, little girl, dumb, subject of jokes involving physical and sexual assault.
Any variation on fat and/or ugly at this point just makes me yawn.
I’ve had so many emails and messages telling me I deserve a beating, I don’t even keep track any longer.
“13? Judging by the size of your titties, I’d of thought you were 18.”
(censored version) If you keep talking the way you do, you deserved to get raped.
My #mencallmethings moment – receiving an email consisting of 1600 lines plus of the same insult over and over. My crime? Being fat.
I’ve had so many guys tell me how good I must be in bed because I’m fat and therefor will do anyone
I usually get ‘sweetheart’ just before they dismiss my argument as being ‘stupid’. No counter argument.
Will not repeat the violence that’s been directed at me but this one made me laugh “Blubbering self-important herd animal.”
apparently I’m a lesbian… I was unaware until #mencallmethings.
I’M ON ANTI-DEPRESSANTS AND I CANT EVEN JERK OFF CORRECTLY NOW & ITS BECAUSE OF WOMEN SO FUCK ALL YOU INFERIOR COWS
“You should have your tongue ripped out.”
I get sent one rape threat a month on average.
I was once told “get back in the kitchen you ugly bitch” for posting on a Linux board (can’t remember which one now)
Have you ever wanted someone to tell you that your genetalia should be stapled shut with bugs inside, start a blog
How about being choked to death during a forced blowjob? Start a feminist blog.
Not worth the effort to murder: the most recent example of what I had to delete off the blog when #mencallmethings
C0mputar, in his Reddit post, went on to offer another argument that seems to be a favorite of those trying to trivialize the abuse catalogued by the contributors to #mencallmethings:
In the end, veterans of the internet know there is no protected demographic. Everyone gets shit on, but if you make a point of belonging with a group, you get shit on even more, and more so the smaller you are. You know who gets shit on more than feminists? MRAs.
Really? Some MRA types on Twitter tried to get a rival hashtag going: #womencallmethings. Needless to say, they didn’t have much to work with.
One Man Boobz non-fan — whom I banned for his repeated comments about anal rape — tried to post a sarcastic little comment here last night dismissing #mencallmethings on similar grounds. Here’s a screenshot from my wordpress account, with his identifying data erased:
Let’s just, for contrast, take a look at the previous comment he tried to post here:
Another day, another “hope you get raped” comment.
Ironically, though I’m pretty thoroughly disliked across the manosphere, I actually get a lot less of this sort of abuse than most reasonably well-known feminist bloggers who happen to be non-dudes. Oh, sure, I get called a “traitor” and a “mangina,” and once in a while someone points out that I’m, you know, fat, but when it comes to the really nasty shit, the abusive commenters and emailers seem to much prefer going after women. This may be because they are misogynistic assholes. That’s just a theory, though.
Posted on November 8, 2011, in antifeminism, bullying, creepy, douchebaggery, manginas, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, PUA, rape, rapey, sexual harassment, threats, violence against men/women. Bookmark the permalink. 722 Comments.
Shaenon: You’re right, Brandon’s blog post is hilarious! It’s in 1 million point font and in the comments he invokes the old “There’s no evidence it’s NOT true!” line.
Captain Courageous has some odd quirks.
1: He thinks rummaging in someone’s purse is harmless flirting, and can’t imagine why someone might react badly (he was slapped).
2: He claims to be 40 odd years old, but he seems to be implying that when he was in his 20s women had phones in his car.
Then there is the question begging (women are ignorant of starting the “war between the sexes”, or they lie about it).
This is all married to the usual claptrap of women being the beneficiaries of all sorts of gov’t largesse, and living the easy life, etc.
This, in BrandonLand is 1: Interesting 2: Believable 3: Funny.
Running down the sidebar of his previous posts… well it’s not as if any of this is much of a surprise. The litany of reactionary politics doesn’t really make this look like anything more than the politically correct thing for him to say on the subject…
It sums up to… “Get in the kitchen and make me a sammitch”.
One wonders what it is that Brandon finds dull, if this sort of vapid amuses him.
(I shall refrain from overt speculation as to why Brandon has so many of this sort of thing so ready to hand… you can do that for yourselves)
If some men don’t want to date, mazel tov to them. I hope they do something enjoyable and fulfilling with their time!
But if certain men want to constantly rant about how they don’t want to date, in obvious hopes that the women of the world will scream “oh no don’t leave us, we’ll be good, we’ll do anything you want!”, that’s a different thing. It makes me think those men are unhappy, dishonest, and sexist.
Big difference.
Hopefully not Star Wars Old Republic. Because I’m looking forward to playing it and really don’t want it to turn into this.
The new Mayor of Tucson?
“What I described–framing a “cumshot” in terms of humiliating your girlfriend–isn’t “vulgarity.”
Vulgarity is when you say “fuck.”
Yep. I have no issue with vulgarity in the appropriate context. What I’m not OK with is someone involving me in their own personal D/s fantasties without my consent. If you get off on humiliating your partner and your partner is cool with that, then hey, that’s your business. But don’t assume that random people want to hear about it. You have to ease into that kind of conversation, and part of easing into it is judging your audience.
This is not evil femael oppression of men’s natural love of vulgarity, this is simply a demonstration of the fact that you have social skills.
The difference between single by choice and MGTOW is the difference between quietly leaving a party because it’s not that fun–and staying at the party making a big scene about how it sucks and everyone there is an asshole and you’re leaving and everyone is going to really miss you and regret losing you, that’s for sure, but they brought this on themselves and it’s too late for them to change your mind now!
The first is a completely ordinary and fine choice. The second is just pathetic.
I took a little read of Brandon’s link (the one to aleknovy.com) and I think I’ve found a bit of a problem. See, the author here doesn’t seem to consider the idea that one can be friends with a woman without dating them. It’s true that finding a date is much harder than finding some buddies to play games with, but it’s not because of gender, it’s because of the role that the person fills!
It would explain a lot if MGTOWers are incapable of seeing women as anything more than sex providers. If they really value a woman’s intelligence, as the author claims, then they wouldn’t be so hung up on “but women are much too hard to date!” and would be making claims more like “sure, women can make good friends, but they are far too demanding when it comes to sex!”
There’s plenty more wrong with the article, believe me… But this really strikes the heart of what’s wrong with the author’s position in general.
Also replace all instances of the word “article” with the word “post.” Thank you for your time.
You know, like Dracula I am Ash-nostic. I neither believe or disbelieve in the existence of Ashley.
But the NAME. Come on! That’s not believable.
I think we should start referring to her by an ever-changing assortment of unlikely names:
Hildegard. Guadalupe. Esmerelda. Batsheva. Rivka.Lata. Lynndie. Cheyenne. Lurlene. Indira. Arundhati. Matilda. Zelda.
Or stripper names:
Bambi. Krystal. Chardonnay. Jasmynn. Roxxy-Lynn. Lexxus.
I would put a vote to change the name to something other than “Ash-gnostic.” It reminds me of Ash from pokemon, and the thought of him getting horny from trolling and getting on his knees for Brandon is an image that I would like to bury into the deepest parts of my sub-conscious.
Ok, this may be a bit long, but it’s far too good to pass up (from that same blog post). Try and guess what this line of dialogue comes from!
Give up? Too obvious! It’s the subtext behind every single woman’s actions when she finally finds a man worthy enough to date. If women really were like this at all, I’d be going my own way too. Good thing this isn’t reality.
I’ll admit, I’m always accusing men who hit on me of being douche-bags, pushy losers, dumb-asses, retards and womanizers. Or, you know… I politely express my disinterest. Which is totally the same?
Although I have used the word “pushy” to describe men who refuse to accept my expression of disinterest. It’s hard being a straight dude! Ask a lady to dance, she declines, say “come on” 7 times and then she’s mad or something??
Not that that is how most straight dudes act, of course. Just the occasional one who decides his experience is universal.
Shaenon: You’re right, Brandon’s blog post is hilarious! It’s in 1 million point font and in the comments he invokes the old “There’s no evidence it’s NOT true!” line.
The new links are almost as good. Admittedly, I only clicked the first one and didn’t read the whole thing because it’s fucking long (vulgarity!), but I did get the following:
1. There is a war of the sexes going on, it’s women’s fault, and anyone who says otherwise is lying. WHY ARE YOU LYING?
2. The author notices that women in their thirties seem a lot more mature and less drama-inclined than women in their twenties. Therefore, younger women are deliberately acting that way to bug men. They aren’t actually, you know, maturing as they get older, because that would mean that women learn and change like people.
3. An example of the horrible treatment the author received from women: one time a date made him hang out with her friend who was FAT.
4. Illustrations!
5. Women in 1940 were nice to men all the time, and then they stopped for no reason. Why 1940 specifically? I have no idea.
Awesome.
Those illustrations, man… Those illustrations. It’s almost as vacuous as the other posts (admittedly) facetious math, or that one woman’s charts on the economics of the sexual value marketplace.
Dear men who are interested in women everywhere: just because a woman says no, does not mean she thinks horrible things about you and is laughing behind your back. Perfectly nice people who would definitely appeal to other perfectly nice people get rejected every day for a million reasons. Calm down. The person you are talking to has almost certainly faced rejection at some point as well.
@Viscaria:
But but but… Everyone knows that women never ask men out, so women never get rejected ever! And their desire for companionship in the form of a date always is outweighed by their desire for a mind-reading greek god!
It’s just simple logic!
1. This argument has numbers!
2. I can put things in that look like premises!
3. Women suck!!! (???)
Oh wow I just bothered to click that first link too, and there’s a reference to a gaggle of cats right up close to the beginning! Can we steal Pharyngula’s misogyny Bingo card and modify it to include “you’ll all be alone with your cats!” and “women were better when they were fluffy!” We could also have a space for equating day-to-day life as a free member of society to slavery!
I’m going to be really embarrassed if that link doesn’t work.
I’ve sent like four emails to Schwyze (all at once) and I posted twice on The Pervocracy message board, (with no intent to spam or harass, they were legitimate posts). Aside from that, and Manboobz of course, and the Good Men Project a few times, and Ozymandias’ site a few times, I haven’t ever posted on a feminist site. So, I’m not the best person to ask.
Sooo… aside from all the people you’ve harassed, you’ve never harassed anyone.
Okay, so what are you trying to get out of your posts here? When you call women “gashes” and “Her Holy Highnesses” and rant about alpha FUCK women, what reaction are you hoping for? Do you want to scare people? Anger them? Convince them that you’re right? Make them shut up? Do you not care what kind of response you get, as long as you get a reaction? Or do you not see us as people, more like video game characters you can destroy by typing the word “bitch” a lot? I’m really trying to figure this out.
kirbywarp:
The other fundamental problem is the attitude that relationships come with a price tag, which reminds me of a hilarious lawsuit that someone instituted after his girlfriend of four years or so broke up with him – clearly because she belatedly realized that he was a complete douchenozzle, as he went on to demonstrate to the world at large.
It turned out that this guy had been keeping a spreadsheet, backed up with a box full of receipts, of every single penny that he’d ever spent on her – and he sued her to try to get it all back.
Still, there’s a happy ending – the judge threw the case out and the guy became a national laughing stock. In fact, I’d love to know if he managed to get a date, let alone a girlfriend, ever again. (Sadly, I can’t remember his name, otherwise I’d link).
@Wetherby: Everything comes with a price. Relationships take work and effort…that is the price you pay to be in one. If the price is too high, we stay single.
Meeting women requires work since women typically don’t approach men that often. So we have to be the ones that initiate everything: meeting, touching, flirting, kissing, etc… It is a very rare woman that initiates any of those with men.
Men have to take an active role in dating. Women mostly just have to wait for someone to approach them to initiate. The only women that I can think of that would have to take an active role would be unattractive, morbidly obese, elderly and/or women with a physical disability.
The article by aleknovy wasn’t just about dating…it was about most human decision making. If something takes more effort than the actual or perceived reward, then most people wont do it. It applies to other aspects of life beyond dating: school, friends, hobbies, exercising, etc…
So masturbation, real dolls, porn and escorts can pretty much fulfill men’s sex needs while emotional support can be provided by his circle of friends instead of a girlfriend. So in the end, men get most of this emotional/sexual needs filled, with very little work compared to meeting, dating and maintaining an intimate relationship with a woman.
Things I Have Learned From Brandon: I am unattractive, morbidly obese, elderly and/or physically disabled.
(I mean, not that there’s anything wrong with any of that.
MRAL: Cheradenine had to spamfilter you for abuse once… although you were overall a decent contributor and I will vouch for you.
@Oxy: And how would I be able to say any of that, with no photo?
You know, this doesn’t even remotely reflect my life in the real world? Men aren’t lining up at my door, and I’m not rejecting them all with glee for the slightest flaw. It’s not because I’m ugly either; twenty years old, thin and pretty and I’m still an active participant in my own love life.
Newsflash brandyn; this is 2011. Women aren’t waiting like wilting wallflowers for men to notice them anymore. We’re not required to take the passive roll in our lives, and so many of us don’t. Some do, sure, but I find that to be a ridiculous waste of time.
Newsflash number 2: Dating is hard for everyone. Seriously, everyone. So yea, some people decide it’s not worth the effort, and some people stick with it. Some people find that(those) special someone(s), and some people don’t, and all this is actually very gender neutral.
But if it were more socially acceptable for women to approach and take a more active role, wouldn’t that make things easier?
@Shora:
1) Yes, it isn’t the 1950’s and women behave differently to a certain extent. Also it isn’t “some do” but “some don’t”. Especially for really attractive women, since they get approached far more often than a morbidly obese women.
2) Dating really isn’t difficult, it is just tedious and time consuming. Meet woman, see if you attracted to them, see if she feels the same way…and off to the races.
The problem is that it can be dull and boring since you are going through the same steps over and over and over again just with different women.
@Pyena: And why does something have to be socially acceptable for you to do it? If you want to approach, then approach and to hell with what “society” thinks.
Brandon: The I is a link to a photo of me with the face whited out. I would enjoy adding your “ugly bitch” to my collection of insults. :)
I dunno, in my attempts to pick up women, each woman has been different and unique and interesting, and even if I fail I get a new friend, which is nice.
God, you are dull, Brandon.
So then don’t date. I never found dating boring and/or tedious but if I had -or ever do- I just won’t do it. And I’ll avoid devoting entire blogs or tedious posts that talk about why I’m not dating.
Is it remotely possible that dating seems “tedious and time consuming” when a person views it as purely transactional? Perhaps a person who finds themselves having difficulty dating could divest themselves of the static and constraining consumer model -and the entire “meets my needs ethos- and live their lives in such a fashion that they meet people who add to their lives. As opposed to just “meeting their needs”.
Anyone who goes through the exact same steps, over and over again, in an attempt to date is: 1) not being especially selective, 2) almost inevitably boring themselves and 3) should take a break and reassess what it is they really want out of sexual and/or potentially romantic human interaction.
Destiny. Alize.
Oh, are we back at the “women can always get laid?” thing. Yawn. It’s crap you hear from guys who:
1. Don’t notice women’s existence except when they’re approaching them for sex or dates (or thinking about it). We’re around the rest of the time, you know. And there’s a whole lot of women who fall in between “morbidly obese or elderly” and “hot chick who’s got guys all over her all the time.” (Unless you think a woman becomes morbidly obese at 140 pounds or elderly at 35, in which case, well. They still exist too.)
2. Don’t understand the difference between harassment/objectification and genuine offers. If I turned around and said “why thank you, I’m so flattered you noticed bitch got an ass on her, what are you doing Friday,” (which I’m not going to do anyway because Christ almighty do I have to explain this) I really doubt I’d actually get a date out of it.
3. Don’t understand that we’re looking for someone we like and want to spend time with, and sitting around waiting for an offer is only likely to fill the “someone” part of that desire. On the rare occasions that you get approached by someone sincere and non-threatening, it’s still extremely low odds you’ll be actually compatible.
Speaking of dudes boycotting the planet for video games, I’m just gonna leave this here: http://consumerist.com/2011/11/police-say-man-threatened-to-bomb-best-buy-because-it-didnt-have-game.html
Hope this answers your question Ami =)
Absolutely. If the same things keep happening to you, the chances are that it’s a problem of yours that needs addressing. Just as the fact that no woman has apparently ever asked Brandon for a date but several women have made the first move with me is also highly revealing. Especially since one of them was one of those “hot chicks with guys all over her all the time” – or at least they would be if she’d been inclined to let them anywhere near her.
So how did I succeed when so many others failed? Because I got to know her over the phone first of all, thanks to her being the PA of a regular client who was often out of the office. So by the time we finally met we’d already got to know each other pretty well – she was usually pretty bored, so we’d have long chats, during which we established several common interests and a shared sense of humor (perhaps the single most important ingredient in a truly successful relationship). And when we finally met, I wouldn’t have dreamed of making the first move, because she was married – it was up to her to let me know that it was in name only and they’d been separated for ages. We ended up living together for nearly two years until her divorce came through and she moved back to the States.
And this was in the early 1990s, since when it’s become infinitely easier to establish a rapport with someone before meeting them. Including my wife – by the time I met her face to face, we’d emailed for a week and phoned for a week, so we already had a pretty good idea that we’d like each other and that our first face-to-face date would probably go well.
Of course, the downside of this approach is that it requires people to develop a verbal rapport beforehand, which almost inevitably requires you to show genuine interest in the other person – especially since you have no idea what they look like. That, I fear, is where some people might fall down badly.
@Holly, friends of mine used to pull out the “it’s so easy being a girl, you could always go home with a guy if you wanted and there’s no guarantee that I could go home with a girl” thing a lot, especially back when I thought I was straight. What it seemed to me that they were doing was defining “guys” as every man in the place, and “girls” as the women they personally found attractive enough to have sex with. So maybe that larger girl with the crazy hair in the corner would love to go home and have a wild time, but she doesn’t count. However, the guy who came up to me and grabbed my ass without permission absolutely does.
Because it can’t be said enough…
…even though she may be both more interesting as a person and more inclined towards wild sexual experimentation than the others. Whereas the stunningly attractive ones that everyone’s chasing might be quite dull and conventional, especially if they devote much of their lives to shopping and make-up.
Yes, I know, I’m falling into Brandon-style stereotyping, but there’s a fair bit of truth there. If you only think about surface matters, it’s hardly surprising that your relationships end up being a bit superficial.
See, men are allowed to be shallow and judge women by their looks, because that’s just natural. A women of course is supposed to be above caring about looks, because otherwise she’s a shallow b****. The very guys that complain about how some women like tall men see nothing hypocritical about making fun of plus sized women. By the way, I realize plenty of men do not hold this double standard, and plenty of straight men judge women by their intelligence and personality rather than looks.
Actually Brandon, after a while even the nicest of attractive women will get tired of being interrupted constantly when going about their business by men hitting on them.
Same with guys actually, even though at first, it probably will be nice to be hit on by women, if it happened all the time you will get tired of it.
It is just a natural human reaction to being bothered way too often.
I just want to echo everyone else saying it is very gender-neutral. I’m a conventionally attractive woman in my mid-twenties and i’ve more or less given up on dating (for now at least) as well I don’t make a big scene/fuss about it and also I don’t blame ALL men. I see culturally things that are not great for men or women. Also I have been sooooo not passive in my dating endeavors and though I’ve “rejected” (i.e. didn’t want to date) some men I have been rejected too by the ones I actually liked. It really is a human condition issue and also it’s true you’re supposed to only want to sleep with overall a minority of human beings. Yes there are reasons for men to “go their own way” but not to be totally showboat jackasses about it and say how terrible women are instead of looking at problems in society as a whole.
Brandon: @Oxy: And how would I be able to say any of that, with no photo?
You have this problem with subtext. You said,
Ozy has to take an active role in dating, ergo you have said she must be in one of those categories, as you can think of no other reason.
I can. She says she likes shy guys who tend to be socially awkward. But the idea that a woman might know what she likes, decide to actively seek it out, rather than wait for one of them to just appear and ask her out; all the while being either without the company she wants, or having to reject a lot of other men, completely outside your realm of thought.
Now to the rest of your ideas:
Assumes facts not in evidence, and has unstated premises.
We don’t know what you mean by “morbidly obese”, and lots of women who are heavy (BMI above say… 25) get lots of action. Lots of women who are even larger than that get lots of action.
In my experience (and personal experience which you have shown we should consider as plainly dispositive) heavy women get more men approaching them then thinner, “more conventionally attractive” women.
I’d say this is because men think “pretty” women are already taken/they can’t compete (see PUAs and the Greek System), and because men get to know them better, because they aren’t immediately trying to drag them to bed, which leads to more interest in them as people, and the attendant interest which comes from that.
Dave: The problem with the issues of those names you mention… I know people with some of those names (five in the first list… three of them with more than one person sharing it).
It would be cruel to someone who had one of those to stumble upon a comment that had her name attached to a Brandon.
And, if we assume (arguendo, if you must) that there is an Ashely, it’s not really fair to deny her outright, no matter how much one may doubt.
Ashley isn’t all that uncommon a name, in any case.
The real peach here is the thinking which underlies Brandon’s worldview.
1: Women are fickle, almost all of them are vapid, and uninteresting.
2: He is able to quickly, with a few leading questions, winnow the field and his circle of friends only allows women who aren’t vapid, uninteresting, or who care if they are piggish.
3: This is lots of work.
4: If he weren’t with Ashley, the amount of work woudln’t be worth the return, because of how demanding, and bemeaning, women are (see attached essays as evidence).
5: He doesn’t care what women think, and if they don’t like him, and his (occasionally wandering) ways, the curb is over there.
6: He is kept from speaking his mind about the sex he enjoys, unless he and the guys; which includes a lesbian, because you know they like to talk about straight sex, and come-shots, are alone.
7: But he goes his own way, and doesn’t care what the world, esp. the vapid women, think.
8: Feminists are wrong, and don’t know (or lie) about how vapid most women are, and how they aren’t willing to do the things Brandon likes. His life experience tells him this, and if you don’t believe him, Captain Courageous (the financial genius, take lessons now), thinks the same thing, so it’s obviously true.
@ Brandon
Sadly, society can be pretty harsh to those who act outside the accepted norms.
(Sorry it took me a while to respond. I had to go to class.)
@Brandon:
You really need to stop comparing apples and oranges… Trying to find a woman to date is much different from finding a woman to be pals with. If you were trying to find a guy amongst your game-buddies to date, you’d run into the same sorts of problems.
That you keep persisting in comparing dating women to being friends with men makes me think you really can’t see women as anything but sexual… Might explain a lot of the tedium you experience.
I have a hard time understanding people like Brandon. They’re so goal-oriented, it’s sad. Dating is the road to sex exclusively, and the road is something to be done with ASAP so you can get to your destination, not an opportunity for a fun road trip.
I once had planned a date with an online acquaintance, we were going to go see a movie at the cinema. When I get there to pick her up she had changed her mind, she wasn’t really up to go out but she wanted to stay in and have sex the whole evening.
People who complain that dating is a chore because it gets in the way of the sex are as ridiculous as if I had complained that that girl had ruined my evening because I didn’t get to go watch that movie I really wanted to see. Live in the fucking moment, people!
@BlackBloc:
Problem is that they are also very narrow minded. So to your analogy they’d say “What do you have to complain about, you got the sex! Now if it were reversed, and you were planning for sex and she wanted to go out instead, then you’d have a right to complain.” The point is lost, because they don’t understand the point. Curse you, Dunning-Kruger.
Ami:
Well, the only one I know is a feminist, so …
Brandon:
But the thing is you do know it. You don’t say “well, uncles don’t like vulgarity, better tone it down.” And your words imply that you do think that way about instancesof the class “woman.”
Ami:
I dropped out ofthe dating scene years ago.
A monogamous relationship will do that.
Brandon:
So classic trolling, then. Before the word underwent linguistic drift.
Or you have to hide your true self from everyone you interact with off-line. Most people would draw a conclusion from that.
Nobinayamu:
I’d rather a wing-woman than a wingman. The message is “Ǝ woman : woman enjoys my company”
Brandon:
I don’t think that has ever been true. Because women have preferences and dispreferences too — anyone who’s ever been turned down by a woman should realize this. Even when the official version was “women wait and men approach,” women put a lot of effort into getting particular men to approach, while perhaps dissuading others.
kirbywarp:
I assume his point is that if he had rejected what he thought was going to a movie, he wouldn’t have “gotten” the sex … but they probably wouldn’t get that, either.
Holly, #3 betrays your privilege. You GET to pick and choose the men you are ‘compatible” with. Men, on the other hand, have to line up and claw and fight for anything (only to get mocked by arrogant women 99% of the time), so they don’t have that LUXURY.
Which is really weird, because women are like 52% of the population, so I don’t see how that’s really possible, except for I know it is when I’m “out in the field”. So, got me. Female hypergamy, I think that’s a major factor, but it can’t entirely explain the phenomenon.
I understand where Brandon is coming from. I’m not trying to be offensive here, but a large minority, or maybe small majority are annoying as hell. They’re loud and obnoxious and vain and stupid. Some men are annoying to douchey too, but in my experience they are far, far less common
Meanwhile, the main bloggess at Traditional Christianity is throwing in the towel because misogynists won’t be satisfied no matter how submissive you are:
http://traditionalchristianity.wordpress.com/2011/11/08/gossip
Finally, this “women don’t ALL get men falling all over her” bullshit. We’re talking about the averages, the 5/10s, here. You all keep using fat girls as a loophole to say SEE GIRLS DON’T HAVE IT SO GOOD. Of course, fat men can forget about it too.
But the fact is that even men who actually work at it and keep their body in sexually acceptable shape are often ignored by arrogant women. If you’re of normal proportions (not hard), women can get picked up whenever they want. Men can’t, even without being disgusting slobs.
Her definitions of, “compmentarity” is, “The man is always right.”
There is a lot more in that piece, none of it all that well thought out, since it all boils down to, “feminism is evil”, with a dash of, “And the root cause of all that is bad in the world today”, and if you question men… FEMINISM.
The traditional Christianity website is horrifying.
“Same with guys actually, even though at first, it probably will be nice to be hit on by women, if it happened all the time you will get tired of it.”
I actually know men who react with barely concealed boredom and irritation to being hit on a lot of the time. They perk right up when it’s a woman who they find appealing, though, and they’re a lot nicer about the attempts to hit on them when it’s done with some grace, much like most women do in similar situations.
It’s like men and women are actually part of the same species or something.
@MRAL: What the fuck is this?
“Holly, #3 betrays your privilege. You GET to pick and choose the men you are ‘compatible” with. Men, on the other hand, have to line up and claw and fight for anything (only to get mocked by arrogant women 99% of the time), so they don’t have that LUXURY.”
Seriously, is that how the world looks to you? And, more importantly, have you ever considered that maybe YOU’RE the problem? After all, either 99% of women are exactly the same and that’s why they all dislike you, or they are all reacting to 100% of you and your personality and attitude. This is a truism in life that serves people well in pretty much all situations: if one person finds something about you objectionable, maybe it is a difference of opinion. If a couple of people point out the same objection, well that’s life and we don’t all agree. If the majority of people come up with the same problem with you, you’re the one with the problem.
Why do you think that only women get to have standards of compatibility? Why do you think you have to line up and fight for “anything”… and what do you mean by “anything”? If nothing else, you are clearly projecting your inadequacies onto other men if you think your personal issues are something universally experienced by men. At the same time, you really seem to be shoving all your feelings of self-loathing and lack of self esteem onto women, making yourself the victim of their behavior instead of allowing yourself to be in control of and responsible for your own life in a mature, adult fashion.
I feel bad for you, but you’ve got to let it the fuck go.
Tru story of how two women got together!
I met F. at a workshop at our university (I was hired the year before, she was a new hire), in September.
We sat together due to random chance, with another new faculty member, and talked a bit.
Later that semester, she came to a wine and cheese social hosted by my department. Everybody was milling around in the stuffy conference room, and she tried out her usual conversational ploy to flush out people she wanted to talk to (neither of us like or do smalltalk well): she mentioned Star Trek.
I leaped out of the crowd. We talked. I invited her over to watch TNG and then X-Files.
We went to movies.
She rescued an injured cat and encouraged by me adopted him (she’d never had a cat before).
She catsit my three while I was at a conference (and was shocked when one stole a french fry from her lunch), and I catsit her two (she adopted another one in the spring) when she was at a conference. We rented a house in August. A couple of years later, we bought a house. We’ve been together since 1995.
No dating, no games, just spending time and more time together. We’ve team taught (and I’ve seen team teaching nearly lead to a divorce amongst colleagues), and run five-week institutes together and written articles and grants together (the first one was 175 pages), and would still rather hang out with each other than anybody else on the planet.
Not in any way saying that all women are perfect, though I’m sure NWO will accuse me of it, but giving one example of how life partnership can work when the traditional heterosexist patriachal game-playing bullshit doesn’t shape things. And I have friends involved in straight relationships who don’t have all that bullshit either (including several women who are the major wage earners in the family).
Brandon: MRAL has actually talked once or twice about things he enjoys (GRRM’s fantasy series, the swimming, etc).
You haven’t.
When you’re hanging out with your buds talking dirty to impress the others about how macho you are, are you actually having FUN? I assume you and Ashley have fun together too, though I cannot say I’ve ever seen any sense of real pleasure or joy in your posts about her, so let’s exclude that relationship for the moment.
What games do you play? What hobbies do you havev?
Can you actually make one post that is just about YOU having fun instead of telling everybody else how wrong they are to live their lives not according to BRANDON?
Is there anything in your life that gives you pleasure (I’m not sure I believe that you so enjoy hanging out here though you keep claiming you do so because we amuse you, but even say it’s true, is there anything that is simply pleasurable for its own sake, not for believing you’re putting other people down who don’t agree with you? Do you ever have fun just by yourself?)
MRAL, my husband is a fat man and he’s far more sexually experienced than I am.
Some of it is probably to do with our 11 year age gap ie. he’s had 11 more years on this earth than I have, but most of it is also to do with him being a lovely, charming, funny, interesting, kind and caring human being who doesn’t exude I HATE WIMMIN!!1! from every pore.
He’s also incredibly confident and outgoing where I’m quite timid and shy. Just something to think about…
@ Improbable Joe:
Amen and thank you.
Okay, MRAL, I’ll make you an extraordinary deal here, one that I’ll only make because I know you won’t go for it.
I will fuck you.
I’m fat – 5’1″ and over 180 pounds. I’m butch – I wear men’s clothes, have short hair and it’s not “cute little pixie” short hair either, don’t wear makeup or perfume. I’m a slut – my sexual history is well into the double digits and includes random Craigslist hookups as well as pervy party hookups. I’m socially awkward, blunt to the point of rude, and talk about bodily fluids in public.
Also: I don’t like you. I’ll fuck you, but I don’t like anything about you. I won’t be nice to you. I won’t respect you. I won’t show up on time for our sex-date and I won’t shower beforehand. I won’t call you afterwards. I’ll probably make fun of you to my friends and on the Internet.
And the sex is my way or the goddamn highway. I don’t give a fuck what you like. I like fingering so you’re going to finger me till your hand cramps up and then you’re going to finger me with a cramped hand. Blowjobs are kinda hard work for me so you can fucking forget any of that. I like fingering boy’s butts so I’m going to beg you to let me do yours and pout if you say no. If you come during any of this, it’ll pretty much be a coincidence, because it’s not like I give a fuck.
Whaddya say?
Do you feel like you’re drowning in pussy? Do you feel it would be unreasonable of yourself to turn down my offer? Are you proud of yourself for having a woman falling all over you? DO YOU FEEL FLATTERED?
The worst part is my offer isn’t half as bad as most of what MRAL considers “drowning in dick,” because:
A) As a small woman, I have no way to make him feel genuinely unsafe the way a large man can to me.
B) It’s probably his first ever offer like this one, while a crude and ultimately hateful pseudo-proposition from a guy wouldn’t be my first this week.
Sweet Satan, Holly!
@ Holly:
Can I give you a hug? Please? So apt, so well-put that you need a hug, possibly a hug and baked goods as a thank-you.
>>Of course, fat men can forget about it too.
Talk for yourself, sweetie. I’m 5’10”, 285 pounds. No issue here, even though I have a lot of deal breakers (I only date kinksters, I want girls who are geek-friendly if not geek themselves, and so on).
Lots of women dig the big guys.
This fine offer might increase the number of MRAL’s therapy sessions with ..I don’t know… Somebody has a guesstimate?
@Holly: Oh my.
The sub half of my switch personality really liked that post. :P
“Sexually acceptable shape.”
MRAL, the fact that you even think this is a meaningful phrase when confronted with a lot of poster’s experiences (or just going outside and looking around) says so much about you.
That you’re understanding where Brandon’s coming from says even more. Remember, if you don’t end up like up like NWO or DKM, you could be a hyper-dense IT dude with an imaginary girlfriend. You don’t want that.
@Naira
Thanks for the thanks. Reminds me of the last thanks I got from a stranger. I was doing some grocery shopping, and there was some sort of issue that required a manager. I was probably stuck waiting close to 10 minutes, so I made small talk with the women ringing up and bagging my groceries. On the way out, the bagger thanked me for being cool about the wait and for being so friendly. I told her more or less what I told MRAL, which is that you get what you give. Most people are generally OK, and are willing to treat you as generally OK too as long as you don’t give them a good reason not to. When you behave positively, people react positively to you, and you just feel better overall.
That’s genuine positive attitude, BTW. That’s the other thing that’s just general good advice, to stop being so goal-oriented and relax and be real with yourself and others. People know when you’re trying to manipulate them, and they react badly to it. Why not just be positive because it makes you feel good? Why not have some hobbies that you like just because they are things you enjoy? Why not be friendly to people because it feels good to interact with other folks, and not because you’re trying to get something out of them? The idea of “lining up and fighting for anything” makes women the enemy, whatever their personal intentions might be. If you start looking for fights, you can’t blame the other person when you find one. People are generally OK and not looking to screw you over… and women are people.
At least, that’s what I’ve heard. :)
[blockquote] And the sex is my way or the goddamn highway. I don’t give a fuck what you like. I like fingering so you’re going to finger me till your hand cramps up and then you’re going to finger me with a cramped hand. Blowjobs are kinda hard work for me so you can fucking forget any of that. I like fingering boy’s butts so I’m going to beg you to let me do yours and pout if you say no. If you come during any of this, it’ll pretty much be a coincidence, because it’s not like I give a fuck. [/blockquote]
This doesn’t look too bad. However this does:
[blockquote] I don’t like you. I’ll fuck you, but I don’t like anything about you … I won’t respect you … I’ll probably make fun of you to my friends and on the Internet. [/blockquote]
@talacaris: Wait, you mean ALL of it doesn’t look bad? o.o
MRAL-please stop being like Fry and co from the sex change episode of Futurama.
TV is not real life.