“Please Killl Yourselves”: MRAs respond to #mencallmethings
Well, that was … instructive. The Twitter hashtag extravaganza that is #mencallmethings is still going strong. But I think at this point it’s safe to say that it has basically served it’s purpose: to highlight the obnoxious, obscene, often threatening misogynist shit that women who express their opinions about almost anything on the internet get in their inboxes or in comments online on a regular basis. Women with feminist blogs who actually call out this kind of misogyny get this sort of abuse basically every day.
Sady Doyle of Tiger Beatdown, who started up this hashtag campaign, explained in an eloquent and angry blog post why she did it: to point out how absolutely routine this sort of shit is. When she started her blog, she really hadn’t anticipated the sheer volume of vicious shit she’d get:
I got targeted. With threats, with insults, with smear campaigns, with attempts to threaten my employment or credibility or just general ability to get through the day with a healthy attitude and a minimal amount of insult.
The intent of all this abuse is simple: to intimidate. When someone says to a woman online “I hope you get raped with a chainsaw,” the point is to get her to shut up. The person who posts this sort of violent shit, Doyle notes,
hopes that the next time you sit down to write, you’ll remember that yikesy chainsaw-rape thing and think, “you know? Maybe this isn’t such a great idea. Maybe I don’t need to say this. Maybe I’ll piss someone off, and maybe it will be more than I can handle, and you know, maybe my thoughts on this topic just ARE NOT IMPORTANT ENOUGH for me to risk the headache/fear/irritation/distress/panic attack I know I will get.”
And then, when you say that aloud, they call you a whiny little girl who can’t handle the Internet. Because, of COURSE multiple chainsaw-rape comments aren’t a big deal! They’re just words! Sticks and stones! …
To you, my friends, I say: Fuck that noise. All of this matters. A hostile work environment matters. Being afraid of your own in-box matters. Deleting your blog because that’s the only way for you to have a normal, non-hate-filled life matters. “Accepting” that continual, virulent, hateful misogynist abuse is a pre-condition for being a lady who talks about thing, or for challenging sexism in any way, no matter who you are: That matters. And if you think we’re fragile, well. LET US COUNT THE WAYS we have hacked it, under conditions your pampered manly self just cannot imagine. LET US DEMONSTRATE FOR YOU the shit we wade through, every day, in order to talk about whether or not we liked that one “Community” episode or Lady GaGa album.
Naturally, critics of the whole hashtag campaign have done their best to minimize and dismiss this sort of routine harassment in exactly the ways that Doyle predicted they would.
The charming Ferdinand Bardamu of In Mala Fide responded to #mencallmethings with a bunch of obnoxious comments that conveniently proved basically every point Sady Doyle was trying to make with the hashtag in the first place. He started off with this bit of rapier wit:
He followed this up with a clumsy fat joke:
He continued on in this vein for awhile, so proud of his insightful critiques that he made a blog post about it.
Encouraged by Bardamu’s example, blogger PMAFT (Pro-Male/Anti-Feminist Technology) announced a #MenCallMeThings Trolling Contest. The highlight of his own contributions to this contest:
Over on Reddit’s Men’s Rights subreddit, c0mputar offered slightly more coherent, if equally misguided, response.
The reality is that most of the “misogyny” they face is just criticism to their feminist viewpoints. I see this a lot when I confront feminists arguments, present my arguments, and get called a misogynist, amongst other things characterized by misandry. It happens on both sides …
Really now? Here are some actual examples of comments posted on #mencallmethings (taken from a comment from Shaenon in the discussion here).
here’s some to start: ‘I’ll rape your mum, faggot fuck’ “I’ll come to your house and kill you”
#mencallmethings, impersonate me on FB, & make disgusting sexual comments, post my name & # when I helped organize Slutwalk
cunt, whore, ugly, disgusting, cold, feminazi, shut the fuck up bitch, manipulative, crazy, playing the victim, sociopath
Bitch, whore, being sensitive, little girl, dumb, subject of jokes involving physical and sexual assault.
Any variation on fat and/or ugly at this point just makes me yawn.
I’ve had so many emails and messages telling me I deserve a beating, I don’t even keep track any longer.
“13? Judging by the size of your titties, I’d of thought you were 18.”
(censored version) If you keep talking the way you do, you deserved to get raped.
My #mencallmethings moment – receiving an email consisting of 1600 lines plus of the same insult over and over. My crime? Being fat.
I’ve had so many guys tell me how good I must be in bed because I’m fat and therefor will do anyone
I usually get ‘sweetheart’ just before they dismiss my argument as being ‘stupid’. No counter argument.
Will not repeat the violence that’s been directed at me but this one made me laugh “Blubbering self-important herd animal.”
apparently I’m a lesbian… I was unaware until #mencallmethings.
I’M ON ANTI-DEPRESSANTS AND I CANT EVEN JERK OFF CORRECTLY NOW & ITS BECAUSE OF WOMEN SO FUCK ALL YOU INFERIOR COWS
“You should have your tongue ripped out.”
I get sent one rape threat a month on average.
I was once told “get back in the kitchen you ugly bitch” for posting on a Linux board (can’t remember which one now)
Have you ever wanted someone to tell you that your genetalia should be stapled shut with bugs inside, start a blog
How about being choked to death during a forced blowjob? Start a feminist blog.
Not worth the effort to murder: the most recent example of what I had to delete off the blog when #mencallmethings
C0mputar, in his Reddit post, went on to offer another argument that seems to be a favorite of those trying to trivialize the abuse catalogued by the contributors to #mencallmethings:
In the end, veterans of the internet know there is no protected demographic. Everyone gets shit on, but if you make a point of belonging with a group, you get shit on even more, and more so the smaller you are. You know who gets shit on more than feminists? MRAs.
Really? Some MRA types on Twitter tried to get a rival hashtag going: #womencallmethings. Needless to say, they didn’t have much to work with.
One Man Boobz non-fan — whom I banned for his repeated comments about anal rape — tried to post a sarcastic little comment here last night dismissing #mencallmethings on similar grounds. Here’s a screenshot from my wordpress account, with his identifying data erased:
Let’s just, for contrast, take a look at the previous comment he tried to post here:
Another day, another “hope you get raped” comment.
Ironically, though I’m pretty thoroughly disliked across the manosphere, I actually get a lot less of this sort of abuse than most reasonably well-known feminist bloggers who happen to be non-dudes. Oh, sure, I get called a “traitor” and a “mangina,” and once in a while someone points out that I’m, you know, fat, but when it comes to the really nasty shit, the abusive commenters and emailers seem to much prefer going after women. This may be because they are misogynistic assholes. That’s just a theory, though.
Posted on November 8, 2011, in antifeminism, bullying, creepy, douchebaggery, manginas, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, PUA, rape, rapey, sexual harassment, threats, violence against men/women. Bookmark the permalink. 722 Comments.
@Joanna: Ya, well give me a hand and yell at your sisters to adopt your frame of mind. The more of you, the easier it is to find you.
So…why do you talk to us?
Indeed. Brandon, you should pay attention to Xanthe. When you talk about sex around women, try not to say things like, “I was totally boning this chick and totally came all over her face. Bitch never seen it coming. Lulz.” There are more eloquent ways about it.
Does Brandon think women refer to all other women as their sisters, or what? Seems to be his new catchphrase.
@Xanthe: We all objectify everyone else. Men do it to women, women do it to men. The key difference is do we ONLY see them as an object. Both Ashley and I objectify each other but it is more role playing than anything else.
“@Joanna: Ya, well give me a hand and yell at your sisters to adopt your frame of mind. The more of you, the easier it is to find you.”
Dude, I can’t just change people for you. Everyone is different. Variety is the spice of life and all that. The fun is finding the person you are most compatible with and the reward is sharing your life with them ^_^
Also, don’t talk about videotaping your hookups without your partner’s consent.
I don’t mean to stereotype, but I imagine most women wouldn’t like that.
“Objectify” does not mean “be sexually attracted to.” It means “see as not human.”
“That girl has a nice ass” is not objectification.
“She’s a dumb bitch but who cares, I’m just gonna get me a piece of that ass” is objectification.
I’m not catching up with this thread very well – iPhone sux! I wasn’t trying to say this is all men, or a commonplace happening. Usually men aren’t so unguarded as to really let go with the trash-talk, but it happens occasionally. I know a lot of men who are great to be around with and talk about sexual matters with (not usually going so far as to say who, how, and why we’d like to fuck. There are limits).
Brandon, maybe the fact that someone says horrible things is why they get viewed negatively – there might be a little bit of cause and effect there?
So… Shorter Brandon: Second, I don’t really try at all. I meet girls and screen them for qualities I like. Most don’t even last 10 minutes. If they pass that, then I get their number and schedule a time to meet. Even then, most don’t pass that either.
When he meets a woman the old leading questions to elicit their suitability just happens but it’s still just “rigamarole” which takes a lot of his effort, and is time (all of ten minutes) he could better use hanging out with friends.
So hard to be Brandon, what with all the kickin’ it with his cool friends who manage to not have vapid women around and still he has to work so hard (when he’s without an Ashley to get on her knees for him).
And this… @Molly: Like what girls we want to fuck. Doesn’t really go over well with the ladies
He doesn’t know the women I know. Hell, my fiancée would be pissed if I didn’t tell her when I was interested in someone else (at least insofar as I was thinking of pursuing it).
I think this (as per norm) says more about Brandon, and his social set, than it does about women (or people) in general.
@Joanna: Demanding men speak with eloquence is kind of silly. Instead of trying to change our behavior, why don’t you just accept that some men like to talk in a brash and vulgar way. It is how a lot of men bond with each other.
Also, is there really a eloquent way of saying “boning my girlfriend and finished with a cumshot”?
@Laura: Did you actually have a point to make? Or do you just want to bitch about semantics?
I wish I could say you’re cute when you’re mad, but typing that would make my fingers feel gross.
Brandon wrote, “We are talking about women IRL…you know like ‘away from the computer’. Not the women that frequent this website.”
The example of a group of men and women talking about sex *together* is taken from real life. I was there last month, with my real life vagina.
Brandon wrote, “I get more hostility here than any place where I am around women IRL. So I can only come to the conclusion that women here are not representative of women IRL.”
I get more guys misunderstanding basic stuff like consent around here than any place where I am around men IRL… which I am deeply, deeply thankful for.
“@Joanna: Demanding men speak with eloquence is kind of silly. Instead of trying to change our behavior, why don’t you just accept that some men like to talk in a brash and
vulgar way. It is how a lot of men bond with each other.”
Well don’t demand that I change all women for you. You big silly. Girls don’t like vulgar. Most people don’t like vulgar. If you continue being vulgar, you’re gonna have a problem.
@Laura: I am actually adorable. ;)
No, you’re not. But thanks for trying; have some lovely parting gifts.
And Brandon thinks the issue is eloquence, not content/attitude.
He also, as per norm, ignores the issue of context. How (or that) one brags in a bar is one thing, and I, for one, am prone to be more judgemental about how someone speaks when he, or she, thinks the subject of the conversation has no way to know what was said.
But saying one engaged in this, or that, isn’t a huge problem, if the context isn’t one of being a douchebag asshole.
But, as we know, you are just fine with being a douchebag asshole, if it’s in the cause of something you think will be fun/good for you.
Which is why people here are critical of you. You advocate things which are unkind, unfair and unjust, and then you blame women for making you do it.
I think Pecunium wins the thread.
@Joanna: There is a time and a place to be vulgar. The workplace and around mixed company isn’t two of them. I am really only brash and vulgar around close friends, which is mostly men and a few women. One of the women is a lesbian, so it’s always fun when she starts talking dirty. We all like hanging out with her because she acts and thinks like we do and doesn’t come off as being self-righteous. Plus, she plays wingwoman really well.
Well then you shouldn’t have any problems finding an intelligent woman to court with ^_^
@Laura: Well it’s a good thing that the only opinion that matters is Ashley’s. And she says otherwise.
@Pecunium: Most people don’t go around thinking about what other people think of them. So I don’t really care if you think I am a douchebag or not. There are others that don’t think I am as well. If I went around constantly worrying about being a douchebag, I would most likely become a neurotic mess.
There’s a big difference between saying “I came on my girlfriend”–which is maybe a little TMI, but there’s plenty of co-ed groups where talking about your bodily fluids isn’t taboo–and saying or implying “I came on my girlfriend, yeah, take that slut who’s laughing now.”
I’ll let you in on a little secret a number of men have let me in on: whether they call you on it or not, most men actually don’t like hearing the latter either.
@Joanna: umm…Ashley. I am all good for now.
I was talking about sex with my roomies tonight. There was a discussion of how annoying it is when your pain tolerance shorts out and you can only take, like, five hits with the cane before you’re like “stop it.” Also, we were talking about Literotica and how to write non-shitty porn.
It does happen.
Brandon: @Pecunium: Most people don’t go around thinking about what other people think of them. So I don’t really care if you think I am a douchebag or not. There are others that don’t think I am as well. If I went around constantly worrying about being a douchebag, I would most likely become a neurotic mess.
Funny, I don’t worry about it at all, and no one seems to think I am. Perhaps there is some difference between us.
Then again, since you don’t worry about what people think… wait, you do; or you’d say what you like, when you like, and not worry if the women don’t like it.
@Holly: Not everything applies to everyone. I am sure you can find men that don’t like the vulgarity. My uncle is one of those men. We know this, so we tone it down around him. We do this because 1) He is family and 2) because we personally know him. Random stranger getting offended…well, that’s there problem.
@ Brandon
Then what the hell were you complaining for in the first place? Yeesh!
“If I went around constantly worrying about being a douchebag, I would most likely become a neurotic mess.”
Guys, if Brandon ever realized what a douchebag he was on a regular basis he would be A BROKEN MAN! We need to do everything in our power to keep this from happening!
@Joanna: The possible reasons why men are dropping out of the dating scene.
What pecunium said – it’s not eloquence that the doodz are getting wrong, it’s the content with a combination of objectifying and derogatory speech that comes across really badly.
And there are a lot of guys who do a much better being interesting and nice people than the doodbros.
(I’m getting to be old enough not to be of interest to these bros as a “nice piece of ass” anyway, which is some relief – “past the use-by-date” would probably be the description of me now)
Convince them otherwise Brandon! Let them know there’s a world full of Ashley’s!
I like how Brandon now acts like he’s teh explainer and has to tell us rubes that people are different xD
Brandon wrote, “I get more hostility here than any place where I am around women IRL. So I can only come to the conclusion that women here are not representative of women IRL.”
o_O I’m trying to imagine how Brandon’s RL must be if it’s the same as it is here, and the same topics are being discussed and he’s talking exactly the same now, just appearing suddenly in text and saying stuff then vanishing xD A real life troll xD A ninja? O:
Brandon, you do know no one here believes Ashley exists, right?
Brandon | November 9, 2011 at 10:40 pm
@Joanna: The possible reasons why men are dropping out of the dating scene.
Men are dropping out of the dating scene? o:
Brandon can also prove that there really IS a mass migration of men away from the dating scene. We’re screwed, peeps! Everyone buy a cat!
And for having a girlfriend as non-imaginary as Ashley, surely would mean he would have a more positive perspective of women.
Troll ninja are the deadliest of all. They can regenerate. :)
Yes, Ami! They are leaving us to play video games. We’re all doooooomed!!!
Things that I’m pretty sure are not controversial to anyone here:
(1) Sometimes dating can be frustrating
(2) It’s okay to rather do other things than date
(3) It’s okay to stop dating entirely if you’d rather not
(4) There’s nothing wrong with wanting to have sex and not being interested in relationships.
Golly! Okay, things that seem to be in contention:
(1) The world owes some or all individuals regular access to sex or affection
(2) If you’re a man who is just interested in having sex, it’s impossible to find a woman who feels the same and so in order to have sex, you’ll be forced to pretend to enjoy dating or relationships
(3) No man enjoys dating or relationships
(4) If you have a bad date, your next date owes it to you to make up for it
and of course, the classic
(5) Women are evil bitches that make men miserable on purpose FOR TEH LULZ.
Defending items on the first list does not magically defend items on the second list, by the way.
As an aside, I talk to guys about their sex lives/my sex life all the time, and the people we would like to have sex with. But hey, you’re probably right Brandon. I would probably not be willing to talk to you about sex, not as a friend, because I suspect you’d be a big ol’ jerk about it.
No, seriously, everyone, if you haven’t read the thing Brandon linked to, GO THERE. Skim all the opening stuff about how the women of the world aren’t working hard enough to please MMORPG griefers and scroll down to the part where he assigns men and women points (for, I dunno, keeping track of whether you’re winning at life), then gets mad about women for stealing his points.
He has it all worked out with MATH. It is awesome.
I fully support his thesis. If you feel interacting with humans is an enormous chore and wastes time you could be spending on Call of Duty, please do not try to date.
What I described–framing a “cumshot” in terms of humiliating your girlfriend–isn’t “vulgarity.”
Vulgarity is when you say “fuck.”
When you talk about sex or sexual attraction in a way that denigrates your partner and describes them as stupid or dirty for having sex with you, that’s not vulgarity. That’s hatred.
While we’re at it.. Let’s discuss the reasons why more and more men are turning purple!
Vulgarity is when I use XD
“Let’s discuss the reasons why more and more men are turning purple!”
It’s a Rothchild plot!
@Joanna which video games? :D
Brandon, you do know no one here believes Ashley exists, right?
I neither believe nor disbelieve in the existence of Ashley. (Ash-gnostic?) I am, however, convinced that if she is real, Brandon makes up shit about her when it’s convenient.
Brandon! Which video games are men leaving the dating scene to play? :D
@Dracula: Eh, I figure constantly lying about your girlfriend’s personality is essentially the same as the girlfriend you present not existing at all.
It wasn’t specified Ami. On a side note, I <3 Escher Girls. The ladies with the horse-like flanks get me every time XD
Omigod Ami, you’ve described my best friend’s partner! He wears purple shirts all the time! (And looks pretty smoking hot while doing it.) And pink shirts too! How can we stand for it?!?! XD
It’s irrelevant to me whether or not his g/f exists xD I just find it amusing that whether or not she does, he keeps bringing her up b/c that’s the only way he can prove his humanity xD If “NO REALLY A HUMAN BEING WILL DATE ME” is something you have to keep bringing up b/c ppl have a hard time reconciling personality quirks like “I think spying on ppl w/o their knowledge is a-ok” with “notacreep”… i think it’s hilarious xD
Fair point, Lauralot.
@Joanna: The world isn’t full of Ashley’s though. Too bad though, she is pretty damn awesome.
@Laura: Believe what you want.
@Ami: Actually, my attitude is very different IRL then on this site.
Also, have you not seen the articles by Naomi Wolf, Kay Hymowitz, Bill Bennett, etc… that are telling men to stop playing games and “man up”, get married and have kids.
The women in the 30-40 range that I know are constantly complaining about “there are no good men left!”.
So I don’t think it is this catastrophic issue, but I do think more and more men are disregarding traditional male roles (like getting married and being the provider).
@Xanthe, we must spray him down with blue paint!
@Joanna thank you! :D Yeah the horse women are hilarious xD They’re the ones that make me go o_O the most xD
Um… so b/c Naomi Wolf complains about something (she complains about all sorts of things that I think she’s so wrong on xD ) therefore … it must be true? xD
Wait.. so your proof is “some articles fit the world view that I’ve alrdy decided is true” xD
I think aliens are actually kidnapping men who are near Naomi Wolf and replacing them w/ drones..
the article also fits that theory xD
@Ami: Actually, my attitude is very different IRL then on this site.
EXACTLY! :D
So what you said before is irrelevant! XD
I think the best way to deal with not wanting to take on a particular life role is to not take on that role.
I also think that Brandon’s game is to interleave massive, disturbing misogyny with the incredibly obvious as a sort of camouflage tactic.
“Women aren’t worth dating because they all suck and will entrap you in marriage. Also, some people have brown eyes and Spaghettios are a type of canned food.”
Your thesis is that this is a) a problem that exists and b) one that is appearing now c) you know it is b/c there’s articles complaining by a couple women. The problem is that you have nothing to compare this to xD A) because the exact same women weren’t the same age and writing the same stuff int he past B) b/c it’s really about what articles YOU happen to read at any given point in your life C) media has changed so much you can’t even compare “X number of articles were written in the 80s vs 90s vs 00s” xD
So…. what proof is this again? xD
Outside of “this fits my confirmation bias”? XD
@Ami: Those articles don’t form my opinion…my real world experience forms my opinion. The articles are just “icing on the cake” that helps validate that other people are noticing what I am noticing.
Damn, now I want cake.
Lately I have read more MRAs complaining about trans women as “traps” and entrapping menz into teh ghay secks xD By Brandon’s logic it means that this is a) a big problem and b) getting worse xD
You need more “real world experience”, Brandon.
Ami! Stop being awesome! It’s 5 in the morning here and I need to sleep! XD
Isn’t that the definition of confirmation bias? xD
My real world experience tells me different! :D
I’m pretty sure so does every other person here…
anecdotal evidence and an empty sack and all that… xD
Brandon | November 9, 2011 at 11:01 pm
@Ami: Those articles don’t form my opinion…my real world experience forms my opinion.
If you want to use that as “evidence” to your claim, then you also have to tell us your real world experience, the specific ones that have led you to this broad sweeping conclusion :D
You know what’s funny? Remember when we were trying to explain what culture is and encompasses and how it works and influences us all? And Brandon kept insisting that all of popular culture is stupid and OMG! Britney Spears, and how much he hated gossip and how he’s interested in current events and eschews silly things?
But apparently he really likes video games, and sports, and gossiping with his friends about which women are “sluts” and gossiping with all of us about what he does with his girlfriend in bed.
Brandon, do you realize how few people you actually know? How narrow your life actually is?
As for men turning to video games and guy socializing in order to avoid relationships, why should we care? And if you agree that we shouldn’t care, why are you telling us?
I’d also like to throw in with posters who discuss sex with their guy friends all the time. And I’m an awesome wing-woman.
As Ami said, confirmation bias, and self-admitted.
but… WHICH VIDEO GAMES? xD
I’d also like to throw in with posters who discuss sex with their guy friends all the time. And I’m an awesome wing-woman.
But wait… don’t you like men? Shit… my world is completely ruined… I thought my female friends were unique.
Damn. Another theory destroyed by facts.
@ Ami: If any of the horse-ladies have tattoos on their butts, you could make a joke about cutie marks.
I know, right? It’s amazing how big and diverse the world is once you step outside of the boundaries of Brandonia.
And yes, I like men. A lot. I like them so much, I have sex with them (well, only one, presently) and have them as friends. I’m nutty like that. And you know what’s really crazy, Pecunium? The men who haven’t had sex with me? Still like hanging out with me. We see movies, play pool, have dinner, shoot the shit, go to concerts, go to plays, party, send each other interesting links, have analog debates about all and sundry… all types of stuff.
Crazier still? My boyfriend likes doing all those kinds of things with me too.
These were also funny:
http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.com/2011/10/you-started-it-but-well-finish-it.html
http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.com/2008/10/yes-men-do-leave-market.html
This is the fun thing about having friends who are bi – you can all sit around together discussing who you want to fuck, and why.
Obviously this won’t work if you’re the kind of person who thinks of sex as a game where one person wins, and therefore the other has to lose.