“Please Killl Yourselves”: MRAs respond to #mencallmethings
Well, that was … instructive. The Twitter hashtag extravaganza that is #mencallmethings is still going strong. But I think at this point it’s safe to say that it has basically served it’s purpose: to highlight the obnoxious, obscene, often threatening misogynist shit that women who express their opinions about almost anything on the internet get in their inboxes or in comments online on a regular basis. Women with feminist blogs who actually call out this kind of misogyny get this sort of abuse basically every day.
Sady Doyle of Tiger Beatdown, who started up this hashtag campaign, explained in an eloquent and angry blog post why she did it: to point out how absolutely routine this sort of shit is. When she started her blog, she really hadn’t anticipated the sheer volume of vicious shit she’d get:
I got targeted. With threats, with insults, with smear campaigns, with attempts to threaten my employment or credibility or just general ability to get through the day with a healthy attitude and a minimal amount of insult.
The intent of all this abuse is simple: to intimidate. When someone says to a woman online “I hope you get raped with a chainsaw,” the point is to get her to shut up. The person who posts this sort of violent shit, Doyle notes,
hopes that the next time you sit down to write, you’ll remember that yikesy chainsaw-rape thing and think, “you know? Maybe this isn’t such a great idea. Maybe I don’t need to say this. Maybe I’ll piss someone off, and maybe it will be more than I can handle, and you know, maybe my thoughts on this topic just ARE NOT IMPORTANT ENOUGH for me to risk the headache/fear/irritation/distress/panic attack I know I will get.”
And then, when you say that aloud, they call you a whiny little girl who can’t handle the Internet. Because, of COURSE multiple chainsaw-rape comments aren’t a big deal! They’re just words! Sticks and stones! …
To you, my friends, I say: Fuck that noise. All of this matters. A hostile work environment matters. Being afraid of your own in-box matters. Deleting your blog because that’s the only way for you to have a normal, non-hate-filled life matters. “Accepting” that continual, virulent, hateful misogynist abuse is a pre-condition for being a lady who talks about thing, or for challenging sexism in any way, no matter who you are: That matters. And if you think we’re fragile, well. LET US COUNT THE WAYS we have hacked it, under conditions your pampered manly self just cannot imagine. LET US DEMONSTRATE FOR YOU the shit we wade through, every day, in order to talk about whether or not we liked that one “Community” episode or Lady GaGa album.
Naturally, critics of the whole hashtag campaign have done their best to minimize and dismiss this sort of routine harassment in exactly the ways that Doyle predicted they would.
The charming Ferdinand Bardamu of In Mala Fide responded to #mencallmethings with a bunch of obnoxious comments that conveniently proved basically every point Sady Doyle was trying to make with the hashtag in the first place. He started off with this bit of rapier wit:
He followed this up with a clumsy fat joke:
He continued on in this vein for awhile, so proud of his insightful critiques that he made a blog post about it.
Encouraged by Bardamu’s example, blogger PMAFT (Pro-Male/Anti-Feminist Technology) announced a #MenCallMeThings Trolling Contest. The highlight of his own contributions to this contest:
Over on Reddit’s Men’s Rights subreddit, c0mputar offered slightly more coherent, if equally misguided, response.
The reality is that most of the “misogyny” they face is just criticism to their feminist viewpoints. I see this a lot when I confront feminists arguments, present my arguments, and get called a misogynist, amongst other things characterized by misandry. It happens on both sides …
Really now? Here are some actual examples of comments posted on #mencallmethings (taken from a comment from Shaenon in the discussion here).
here’s some to start: ‘I’ll rape your mum, faggot fuck’ “I’ll come to your house and kill you”
#mencallmethings, impersonate me on FB, & make disgusting sexual comments, post my name & # when I helped organize Slutwalk
cunt, whore, ugly, disgusting, cold, feminazi, shut the fuck up bitch, manipulative, crazy, playing the victim, sociopath
Bitch, whore, being sensitive, little girl, dumb, subject of jokes involving physical and sexual assault.
Any variation on fat and/or ugly at this point just makes me yawn.
I’ve had so many emails and messages telling me I deserve a beating, I don’t even keep track any longer.
“13? Judging by the size of your titties, I’d of thought you were 18.”
(censored version) If you keep talking the way you do, you deserved to get raped.
My #mencallmethings moment – receiving an email consisting of 1600 lines plus of the same insult over and over. My crime? Being fat.
I’ve had so many guys tell me how good I must be in bed because I’m fat and therefor will do anyone
I usually get ‘sweetheart’ just before they dismiss my argument as being ‘stupid’. No counter argument.
Will not repeat the violence that’s been directed at me but this one made me laugh “Blubbering self-important herd animal.”
apparently I’m a lesbian… I was unaware until #mencallmethings.
I’M ON ANTI-DEPRESSANTS AND I CANT EVEN JERK OFF CORRECTLY NOW & ITS BECAUSE OF WOMEN SO FUCK ALL YOU INFERIOR COWS
“You should have your tongue ripped out.”
I get sent one rape threat a month on average.
I was once told “get back in the kitchen you ugly bitch” for posting on a Linux board (can’t remember which one now)
Have you ever wanted someone to tell you that your genetalia should be stapled shut with bugs inside, start a blog
How about being choked to death during a forced blowjob? Start a feminist blog.
Not worth the effort to murder: the most recent example of what I had to delete off the blog when #mencallmethings
C0mputar, in his Reddit post, went on to offer another argument that seems to be a favorite of those trying to trivialize the abuse catalogued by the contributors to #mencallmethings:
In the end, veterans of the internet know there is no protected demographic. Everyone gets shit on, but if you make a point of belonging with a group, you get shit on even more, and more so the smaller you are. You know who gets shit on more than feminists? MRAs.
Really? Some MRA types on Twitter tried to get a rival hashtag going: #womencallmethings. Needless to say, they didn’t have much to work with.
One Man Boobz non-fan — whom I banned for his repeated comments about anal rape — tried to post a sarcastic little comment here last night dismissing #mencallmethings on similar grounds. Here’s a screenshot from my wordpress account, with his identifying data erased:
Let’s just, for contrast, take a look at the previous comment he tried to post here:
Another day, another “hope you get raped” comment.
Ironically, though I’m pretty thoroughly disliked across the manosphere, I actually get a lot less of this sort of abuse than most reasonably well-known feminist bloggers who happen to be non-dudes. Oh, sure, I get called a “traitor” and a “mangina,” and once in a while someone points out that I’m, you know, fat, but when it comes to the really nasty shit, the abusive commenters and emailers seem to much prefer going after women. This may be because they are misogynistic assholes. That’s just a theory, though.
Posted on November 8, 2011, in antifeminism, bullying, creepy, douchebaggery, manginas, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, PUA, rape, rapey, sexual harassment, threats, violence against men/women. Bookmark the permalink. 722 Comments.
ah, nugganu, way to add some racism on top of your misogyny and rape threats…
Don’t they realize that they are proving our point?
Hmm, why would these guys feel less inclined to threaten a man with sexual violence, even a man they don’t particularly like? It’s one of life’s great mysteries.
I sometimes wonder if they’re so secure in their own privilege that it’s literally never occurred to them that rape threats are, you know, kind of alarming. It makes me think of the theory of mind conversation in the other thread.
And this is why we say over and over again that the first principle of feminism is getting everyone to recognise that women are people.
Gosh, all of this is just so silly.
If it weren’t so frightening, you’d have to love the fact that the men complaining about this are acting in the exact manner that justifies it in the first place.
I’m gonna go out on a limb here, but I guarantee you nobody has ever actually said that to him.
Way to prove the point, guys. Bardamu is made entirely of fail.
How do these people go through life without having violence perpetrated on them on a regular basis?
Surely it’s not because… GASP!…. they only talk like this online because they are all massive wimps afraid of women and their own shadow!
They do realize that no one is calling for any kind of suppression of these opinions, yes? I haven’t seen one person say that there ought to be a law banning this kind of vile shit. Calling out and censoring are two very, very different things.
Also, really, “please kill yourselves”? Congratulations on your up to date knowledge of internet lingo, guys. Have you all been in suspended animation for the last few years? Next you’ll be telling us about this brand new thing called Bonsai Kitten.
But but I thought MRAs were against the rape of men and jokes about male rape?
More proof that the MRM is more about misogyny and less about the well-being and rights of men.
And yea, it’s hilarious how all of this just proves feminists right. By all means feel free to disagree with the politics and theory, but the insults and rape/death threats prove its more about hating women and especially hating women who dare to stand up for themselves.
Oh goody. Some of the women are calling out radfems instead of men.
Siiiigh.
Chainsaw rape threats are just a critique of feminist viewpoints, people. God, learn not to take everything so seriously.
/sarcasm
I have received horrid comments on my YouTube page from time to time, you know, the “dildo up a dry vagina”, I cannot have possibly been sexually harassed because I am ugly” you know typically misogynist shit.
The reason Manboobz doesn’t get hit by too much bile is because it’s a primarily a humor site, and that’s more difficult to attack. It’s like, people just laugh at you, like when we all made fun of Tom Cruise for getting pissy at South Park. When your targets are humorless douchebags with sticks up their asses about everything from gender pronouns to Family Guy, well, it’s easier. 4 the lulz, etc. Also, Manboobz generally has a very moderate community.
See more serious, ultra-PC male feminist bloggers like the Alas a Blog guy and Schwyzer. They both get more than their share as well.
Despite all the derails and trolling, I am incredibly grateful for #mencallmethings. As a member of the Internet Generation(TM), I started getting online rape threats since before I hit puberty, and I’ve never even had much of an online presence. Was told, every time I brought it up, to ignore it and not respond. Here’s the thing, though: bullies don’t want a response. Sure, they’ll use your anger against you, they’ll claim that what they wanted was to see you get upset, but what they really want is your silence.
And fucking finally, we’ve decided to stop giving it to them. I’ve had to retreat from the Twittersphere because of how massively triggering so much of what’s been posted lately is, but I’m glad it’s there, because I am so fucking sick of being told to shut up and take it.
Oh, and guess what, assholes? I’ve dealt with over a decade of rape and death threats, not to mention actual sexual violence. You’re upset about a Twitter hashtag. Who’s the whiner now?
Chainsaw rape threats are just a critique of feminist viewpoints, people. God, learn not to take everything so seriously.
/sarcasm
Chainsaw rape threats = critique. #mencallmethings = hate speech. Obvs.
It really is funny how whiny and unreasonable MRAs are. They’re like children. How can mencallmethings be hate speech against men when all it consists of is repeating things that men have actually said to the bloggers in question? That’s hoisting them by their own petard, not hate speech. And how can anyone complain about other people being sensitive when they think that having it pointed out that other men sometimes say horrible things is an act of aggression against them?
Bunch of whiny babies, the lot of them.
Is it wrong for me to advocate gun ownership at this point? I only ask because my wife has asked me to set us up at the local range this weekend. I don’t know if one gun would help, but I do wonder if a bunch of guns in the hands of feminists, combined with publicity, would maybe help. Could hurt, law of unintended consequences and all that… but if bullies are weak and their chosen victims present a strong and well-armed front?
It’s not wrong just useless. Knock yourself out.
@CassandraSays:
It is unfair to accurately quote men, because you’re taking it out of context. The context being whatever diseased mindset caused them to say/write/type those things in the first place. It is fine for a man to threaten ridiculous levels of violence, it is unacceptable to quote a man calling for violence, and it is then also acceptable for men to threaten even more violence in response to complaints about the initial calls for violence.
It is like how your granny talked about things “skipping a generation” but rhetorically.
Eh, Joe, that comes uncomfortably close to Meller’s “when the men rise up… I don’t condone violence, but how can you blame men who are pushed” shtick.
@Rutee Katreya: Cool!!
Gun gun gun gun guuuuuun! (sung to the South Park Mormon episode’s “dumb dumb dumb dumb duuuuumb!” theme)
@Cassandrasays But by talking about things that certain men have done to you, you’re insulting ALL MEN EVER. In fact, just by speaking you’re conducting an anti-male hate campaign, because everyone knows women are supposed to be quiet. To challenge that would be misandry. Keep up!
@hellkell:
I’d hate to come close to anything that guy says…
@Brett K:
Totally right about Cassandrasays… although I’ve never thought about hating all women before, because Cassandrasays was critical towards some men, my Y chromosome just took over and has forced me to stop liking women, and loving my wife, and has made me angry to the point of apoplexy towards more than half of the human race.
All your fault, Cassandrasays.
Improbable Joe: To echo rutee, nothing wrong with it, but it doesn’t address the problem. Shooting your gmail inbox isn’t going to affect the bullies.
On a more practical note… to be any good with a pistol requires a lot of things.
1: Possession. Call that, more or less, $500.
2: Legal right to carry (yes, you can beat some of the rap if the homicide was justified, but if you are patted down for some reason, that’s going to be a problem). That’s often more money.
3: Practice: Until one is comfortable, that’s at least once a week, at least one box (50 rds) a week. For some aspects range ammo (about $12 a box) will do. When it comes to carry ammo, at least one box needs to be fired. That’s going to be more.
3a: Once one is comfortable one needs to dry fire regularly, and live fire at least a few times a year.
4: Carrying is work. Add an extra few lbs to your purse/belt, each day, every day.
5: Mental space. Carrying requires looking at people/situations differently.
5a: Mental space. You have to be willing to kill someone. That’s also (more than people think) a training thing.
6: Practice. The range isn’t pulling the piece in a street situation. So one has to go to non-range places one can see how hard it is to draw when sitting down, standing up, going through a door, lying down.
6a: One also needs to be able to shoot in those circumstance, which most ranges don’t allow. Finding a space for live fire where this is allowed safe is sometimes difficult.
6b: One needs to practice clearing jams/malfunctions.
7: Mindset. When startled/attacked, the weapon has to be the first/second thing you reach for/pull.
7a: Mindset: When startled; not attacked, you have to not pull the piece if it’s not reasonable.
8: Repercussion: Reaching/pulling the weapon may get you less than desirable police attention, see 2.
In practical terms, to have a pistol handy, outside the home, requires, not less than an hour a week of practice, week in, week out. To have it inside the home requires a different amount of practice. Dry fire is your friend but it requires discipline.
If one carries more than one pistol, make sure enough practice is done that the ways in which the weapons are different (which includes jams/clearing malfunctions).
When I was in practice, I probably had a weapon in my hands 3-4 hours a week, and at least 10 minutes every day.
My innate womanly evilness strikes again.
Off to find a fluffy white cat to stroke while I cackle.
Improbable Joe – As a libertarian, I have to advocate that you recommend not just gun ownership, but three guns for everyone!
Also read what pecunium said.
Then come back to fantasy land. Oh yeah.
However, shotguns are much easier to shoot. And can look much more intimidatin’ ;)
I strongly support gun ownership by women. It’s not useless even if it brings you nothing but peace of mind, and as someone who knows people who have successfully defended their homes and children with guns, I think there are more practical reasons as well.
zhinxy: Re shotguns? For what purpose.
Trivia question time.
1: What distance are most (non-military) confrontational shootings?
2: At that range what is the spread of a legal minimum shotgun at moderate choke (the typical, “combat” shotgun)?
Answers:
1:Less than 30 feet.
2: At 30 feet the spread on a minimum/moderate shotgun is about 3″.
They have to be aimed as much as any other weapon at that range. They are larger, heavier, have more recoil.
Because of the length they are less “handy” (i.e. they are harder to move from one target to another). What they are aimed at is easier to determine (this does assume the person on the muzzle end is calm enough to be looking to this) which makes them less useful against multiple attackers.
They are, because of how easy (relative to a pistol) to determine the pointing of, which makes a disarming attack easier to initiate. Because of length they are easier to succeed in disarming.
All in all, for close in fighting, pistols (or revolvers) are much closer to ideal.
In the home, I recommend long cutlery, esp. something which long, and pointed, but dull on the sides, not least because the chance to correct for mistaken identity is greater, and the likelihood of fatal errors is greatly reduced.
I support gun ownership by women but don’t think it’s a panacea. Not only is it not trivial to get good with a gun, not only is it an inappropriate response to most kinds of bullying, but so much violence against women is done by people they’re close to. I can shoot an intruder; I can’t shoot my boyfriend. (And even if I could it’d be a lot harder to explain to the cops.)
Guns are valuable tools but definitely not a full solution to violence against women, and it worries me when they’re oversold as “now no one will ever dare hurt you!”
Mostly, I’m just tired of dragging my own ass around, plus a few pounds of gun and ammo, every time my wife goes outside after dark… and I’m VERY well-trained, and can do the training for my wife which saves a few bucks.
Of course, this was more of a hypothetical thing, which is the hypothetical in which the MRAs and misogynists stop seeing women as easy victims, and stop with the ridiculous attacks based on perceived weakness. A bunch of feminist gun clubs would be pretty cool…
Agreed 100% Holly. Guns are definitely not a panacea.
On a related note, for those of us who don’t live with abusive partners, I find the “your SO might shoot you in a rage!” thing kinda…silly. On accident is a valid concern that can be addressed with gun safety rules.
… and no, I don’t think it is the solution. For all I know, it would give MRAs an excuse to kill women instead of just beating them up. Forget I even said anything, it IS kind of dumb.
ps. I’d still hit the “make all guns everywhere disappear forever” button if such existed. At least for hand guns.
@Fuck MRAs
Screw that “make all guns everywhere disappear forever” button… I just dropped a bunch of cash!!!
I like weapons (guns, knives, swords, sticks, cannon, etc.). They are tools. They are tools of limited utility.
The biggest problem with weapons is keeping them ready to hand. Even in my house, were I can distribute them as I see fit, I am rarely inside of arms reach, and often more than 10 feet from one (this is disregarding any minor cutlery which may be on my person).
The flip side, is all the mental preparation. At that level (ready to try to make fun of my, “posing as a badass” MRAL?), I am never our of arms reach of a weapon. If I can throw a blunt object, I am in arms reach.
I’ll spout hot-coffee on you if I’m walking down the street (and if I am nervous, I’ll keep it there, so that, even if it’s gotten cold, I can spew it in someone’s face, which is really good at breaking their possession of the initiative).
But that requires all sorts of practice, controlled paranoia, situational assessment and the willingness to overreact, and then stop (because the overreaction, can be put down to “heat o the moment, if you stop as soon as possible
As Holly alluded, being violent is problematic as a solution to most things, and not at all useful in others.
I like crossbows.
Oh wow, this sucks…
Pecunium, I was being a little silly and agree with your cutlery rec for in the home, but if you’ve got a big land area, well, on the porch with a shotgun is a classic scare tactic ;)
And yes, a pistol is certainly better for close, but then again, people have preferences, and they aren’t the worst home defense weapon either, http://archives.gunsandammo.com/content/home-defense-shotgun
PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth – they taught me to shoot in the Coast Guard, but I’m way more killer with a bow and arrow XD
There’s also the issue of what happens to our hypothetical woman, legally speaking, if she defends herself with a gun and actually kills someone. There are some areas where she’d probably get off on the grounds of self defense, but others where she would not. I don’t think I like the odds very much, especially for those of us who due to upbringing and/or trauma would probably go for the most lethal response first if we felt threatened.
this is why I think women got the shit end of the stick, biology wise. Not only do we get punished per-say with pregnancy, but we are generally physically weaker too. How do we defend ourselves? Personally I think mandatory self defense classes would be a better choice. With guns or knives you’d need to react quickly and not miss, but with self defense you can learn how to disarm or defend yourself from physical attacks. Even pepper spray has limits, and with the giant purse trend these days it would be hard to dig out on time.
Maybe brass knuckles? lol
I support gun ownership by women but don’t think it’s a panacea. Not only is it not trivial to get good with a gun, not only is it an inappropriate response to most kinds of bullying, but so much violence against women is done by people they’re close to. I can shoot an intruder; I can’t shoot my boyfriend. (And even if I could it’d be a lot harder to explain to the cops.)
Guns are valuable tools but definitely not a full solution to violence against women, and it worries me when they’re oversold as “now no one will ever dare hurt you!”
I absolutley agree. Also, a lot of the guys who yell at women to just get a gun/learn self defense aren’t the kind of guys who are gonna believe that she was acting in self defense when she fires, or just fights back.
Get a gun! Is often the cry of a guy who believes there IS no real “rape problem” etc, and is trying to shut you up, and thus if you use one, you’re a crazy bitch murderer.
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2008/01/five-reasons-why-teach-women-self.html
See issue 4 in particular.
There’s a lot of social issues surrounding women’s experiences before we can turn “A woman should BLOW A RAPIST MONSTER AWAY!” into “That woman defended herself bravely” and not “She’s a crazy bitch who blew that guy away just for being friendly!”
there’s a lot of social issues surrounding women’s experiences before we can turn “A woman should BLOW A RAPIST MONSTER AWAY!” into “That woman defended herself bravely” and not “She’s a crazy bitch who blew that guy away just for being friendly!” in reality when it actually happens.
forgot that end there.
I like bows, crossbows, slings, pikes, quartersaves, jo, bo, you name it.
I’ve never used full-sized catapults or trebuchet, and I left out things that are really hard to own (machine guns, submachine guns, grenades, etc).
As to The Guns and Ammo piece, in my professional opinion, he’s crackers. All of the things which he says are true, but the drawbacks well outweigh them; not the least the things he didn’t mention, such as the prevalence of shooting high, coupled with the slow rate of fire, and the effect of shooting in an enclosed space (which is one of those things which can’t be easily practiced).
@ Improbable Joe – I wouldn’t say dumb. Americans live in a gun culture, but that doesn’t mean that people necessarily understand or respect guns properly. How often do you hear some fool talking about how all badness and crime would go away if only everyone was packing iron, usually in macho terms that make it clear he believes he could scare trouble away by wagging his dick at it?
As a group, we Lefties aren’t really comfortable with guns, so we don’t usually have an answer that beats said fool on his own terms. A knowledgeable person like Pecunium giving real facts about why arming everyone isn’t a real solution is a real asset, and it’s good that we had the conversation.
@ Quackers – Interestingly enough most people who teach self defence classes will tell you that the biggest hurdle for women is getting over the socialisation that teaches them not to respond to aggression with aggression. Many women find it very difficult to be physically aggressive even when threatened, so a lot of the work self defense classes do is just teaching them how to not freeze and how to hit back, yell, etc.
I still think that the single best thing my father ever did for me was teach me how to hit back when I was being attacked. Not just the throwing a punch part, though that was cool too. It was more the fact that he taught me that it was OK to defend myself, and that I had a right to do so physically if my space was being invaded.
It would really help if all girls got that message as children.
@zhinxy
“Get a gun! Is often the cry of a guy who believes there IS no real “rape problem” etc, and is trying to shut you up, and thus if you use one, you’re a crazy bitch murderer.”
Maybe, but that’s not where I’m coming from. Considering the crap that women get for coming forward with any accusations, I 100% assume that they are telling the truth when then claim self-defense, and still consider their claims plausible even if they lose their legal cases.
The whole gun thing was just in response to the online bullying, where I kind of wondered in a hypothetical case if a couple of pictures of women bloggers at the range might not stifle some of the negative comments. I admit it wasn’t a well-conceived plan, but it certainly wasn’t a justification for dismissing rape claims.
Hmm. I’ve never owned a shotgun and I’ve heard plenty of good things and bad things and neutral things. And my auntie loves hers ;) I’ll defer to you.
Also, I have seen a trebuchet used but didn’t get to touch it! i want one now ;). I’m planning to take up some sort of sword art soon, but haven’t chosen.
Crossbows are much more effective in the event of a non-nice zombie outbreak.
“It was more the fact that he taught me that it was OK to defend myself, and that I had a right to do so physically if my space was being invaded. ”
Oh yes, agreed 100%. I was always taught that I could defend myself and others physically against anyone I needed to. My parents even sent a letter to the school saying I was not to be physically punished (not that I ever got into trouble anyway) and told me that if any of the staff ever tried to lay a hand on me, I should kick them and run.
PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth – But I feel so much more DIANA! with my bows and arrows! ;) Confidence and feeling like an invicible goddess are also important when surrounded by zombies! ;)
Quackers: Self-defense training is one of those things that needs even more practice than weapons. Most training fails to deal with the non-training environment, and so the practitioner isn’t mentally prepared when the fight starts.
Making mistakes in that circumstance becomes even more problematic because of, “the gambit problem”. If one has a “failsafe” trick, and it fails, the user is non-plussed. One of the fights I was in had a guy kick me in the nuts hard enough to pick my heels off the ground. I looked down and saw him doing it again.
My sparring partner (a female) used to throw shots at my nuts. 1: I’d been hit before. 2: I knew what to do when I saw it coming. So I did that, which hit him in the back of the head with a sidewalk. The other two guys saw this happen, and decided I was too crazy/tough, to keep fighting, and fled.
I made it about 30 seconds before it took effect, but all I needed was the interlude.
Unless your instructor trains for that, it’s a mixed bag. There is a lot to be gained from the practice, and the confidence, but it’s like firearms, it takes practice and mindset.
I recommend, Cheap Shot, Ambushes, and Other Dirty Tricks by Marc “Animal” MacYoung (a friend of mine, and I did the photography for the book), because it is very good at addressing those issues, and a lot more besides.
I still think that the single best thing my father ever did for me was teach me how to hit back when I was being attacked. Not just the throwing a punch part, though that was cool too. It was more the fact that he taught me that it was OK to defend myself, and that I had a right to do so physically if my space was being invaded.
It would really help if all girls got that message as children.
Amen.
@Seraph:
That was the other component of my thought that I wasn’t going to bring up except that you mentioned it. Us lefties are always thought to be weak and unarmed, and I was wondering earlier today if we shouldn’t do something to change that impression. I wonder if 20 million armed liberal multicultural LGBTQQIA folks wouldn’t shift the national conversation in a more positive direction.
Pecunium – You’re friends with Marc MacYoung? I’ve read that book and several others of his and I think that other than some of his rape advice he’s got the best website dealing with self-defense issues on the net!
I’m impressed by your social circle!
Also your photography was quite good!
Addendum: I have no philosophical problem with people carrying guns.
But….
I think they need to be really aware of the problems.
Lets take the “mall shooting”.
If I’m packing what will I do?
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Hunker down and hide, in all probability. (there goes my, “badass cred”).
Why?
Because, unless I see it start, I don’t know what’s going on. I also don’t know who else is armed, and might think I was a bad guy.
I will, if I can, get to a limited access area, and draw. At which point I’ll defend myself/the people with me. Then I will, as soon as I see the police, lie face down, and put the gun far from me.
If someone is willing to internalise all the things in my first post, and can do that… they are (IMO) just fine carrying a gun.
“Us lefties are always thought to be weak and unarmed, and I was wondering earlier today if we shouldn’t do something to change that impression. I wonder if 20 million armed liberal multicultural LGBTQQIA folks wouldn’t shift the national conversation in a more positive direction.”
I do think that psychologically, breaking the assumption that the left is a buncha pansy’s out to take your guns away and too chicken to own any is a good idea.
I now wonder how some of our “regular visitors” who might very well assume every feminut here is anti-gun and out to get theirs, will react to all the thoughtful gun ownership support on this thread…
zhinxy: That was some of the hardest illo work I’ve ever done. The skinny kid with the ponytail… was me.
The beer bottles, were not props.
Marc and I, before he left LA, used to be pretty tight. I could tell you some stories. I can say, he was my first knife- fighting instructor. I taught him to use rifles.
I had an interesting youth. :)
Bows and arrows are also good for shooting quietly non-nice zombies.
hahahha! I’m totally going to find my copy as soon as I can ;) I think I remember you, skinny ponytail kid!
@Pecunium
As far as your mall scenario, I’m all in with the “hunker down” strategy. Carrying a gun doesn’t make you a cop, and it sure doesn’t make you Bruce Willis in “Die Hard”!
The negative with handgun carry is that reasonably having one creates the paradox of needing to learn when NOT to draw your weapon. I know that when I’m carrying, my thought is always to defuse situations and retreat. I don’t need to prove anything, all I need to do is keep myself and my loved ones safe. Oddly, knowing that I can put someone down if I need to removes the macho BS need to prove that I can be a tough guy to other people.
I am now flipping through the self defense book, featuring YOUNG PECUNIUM, photography by YOUNG PECUNIUM!
Awesome!!
You were kinda cute! If I may harass you a bit! Because things are okay when women do them! ;)
“this is why I think women got the shit end of the stick, biology wise. Not only do we get punished per-say with pregnancy, but we are generally physically weaker too. How do we defend ourselves?”
You could always, you know.
Get a man to protect you.
Or stay at home.
Yeah, I know, it feels a little bit demeaning. But it works! And it worked for millions of years! Men have strength, they have size and they have mental preparedness and emotional control. It’s their job to go out and fight the saber-toothed rapist, not yours.
Good to see a girl acknowledging the fundamental flaw of feminism though. Equality – can it really occur when one group is so obviously inferior? And when that inferiority is a biological reality, not some wicked cultural invention of The Patriarchy™?
In the concrete jungle, feminists are just asking to be eaten alive.
@CassandraSays
Yea that’s probably true, unfortunately. I think also if a woman were to hit back, she might be afraid of provoking more severe retaliation so she will do nothing. I know with me I would have no problem becoming physically aggressive for self defense purposes, but the thing that might keep me from doing so is fear of worse retaliation or death. I think everyone should be taught that physically defending yourself from violence is ok, but especially girls because we’re socialized to not be aggressive even when time calls for it.
@Pecunium
That sounds really painful :( but yes that is a good point. I mean what is the first piece of advice that girls and women are given for self defense? aim for the nuts. That’s what I was told, and from other men too. I’d think an attacker would take that into consideration. I will check out that book, thanks.
e? aim for the nuts. That’s what I was told, and from other men too. I
*nods*
And that’s why it’s what the guy is expecting. You really should check the book out, I’ve moved from chuckling at Young Pecunium and onto seriously re-reading it.
Arks, do fuck off, the grown-ups are speaking.