Johnny Appleseed: A Man Going His Own Way?
How do you like them apples?
So yesterday I quoted some random Spearheader who described women (well, white women in particular) as “complete parasitical whores roaming the landscape spreading VD like Johnny Appleseed and fucking men over.”
One reader wondered if Mr. Appleseed really went about spreading VD. So I did a little research, and it turns out that it is exceedingly unlikely that Mr. Appleseed – who actually was a real person — spread anything other than the magic of apples. And his Swedenborgian beliefs.
Why? Because Mr. Appleseed – real name John Chapman – was what these days we might call a Man Going His Own Way. Seems he didn’t have much truck with the ladies, according to one contemporary account quoted in his Wikipedia entry:
On one occasion Miss PRICE’s mother asked Johnny if he would not be a happier man, if he were settled in a home of his own, and had a family to love him. He opened his eyes very wide–they were remarkably keen, penetrating grey eyes, almost black–and replied that all women were not what they professed to be; that some of them were deceivers; and a man might not marry the amiable woman that he thought he was getting, after all.
So what led poor Mr. Appleseed to these dire thoughts about women? Apparently the underage girl he hoped to some day get with was more into dudes who weren’t him:
Now we had always heard that Johnny had loved once upon a time, and that his lady love had proven false to him. Then he said one time he saw a poor, friendless little girl, who had no one to care for her, and sent her to school, and meant to bring her up to suit himself, and when she was old enough he intended to marry her. He clothed her and watched over her; but when she was fifteen years old, he called to see her once unexpectedly, and found her sitting beside a young man, with her hand in his, listening to his silly twaddle.
That ungrateful little strumpet!
I peeped over at Johnny while he was telling this, and, young as I was, I saw his eyes grow dark as violets, and the pupils enlarge, and his voice rise up in denunciation, while his nostrils dilated and his thin lips worked with emotion. How angry he grew! He thought the girl was basely ungrateful. After that time she was no protegé of his.
But Appleseed, despite giving up on women in the real world, held out hope for the afterlife – explaining to others that he expected to have two spirit wives all his own after he died. Which I guess is the 19th century equivalent of the MGTOWers today who fantasize about the sexy robot ladies who will eventually, it is hoped, make actual human females – with their troubling “thoughts” and “needs” and “desires” of their own – obsolete.
Mr. Appleseed’s quest to remain alone was probably also helped by the fact that – if the illustration I found on Wikipedia is any indication – he looked a bit like Dale Gribble from King of the Hill. Only much, much sloppier, with long hair. Oh, and instead of wearing a baseball cap, he wore “a tin utensil which answered both as a cap and a mush pot.”
So, yeah, a creepy weirdo who hates women — definitely an MGTOWer all the way.
Oh, except that he actually did something with his life — you know, helping spread apple trees to a big portion of the midwest — instead of spending all his time going on about how all women are whores.
Posted on November 4, 2011, in evil women, life before feminism, MGTOW, misogyny, pedophiles oh sorry ephebophiles, sexy robot ladies. Bookmark the permalink. 1,000 Comments.
All right, so can you please give us some names, real or fictional, but concrete examples of what you think is true womenhood, whether they exemplify it or approach it? When did the fluffy women proliferate? . What’s an example of real or fictional womanhood we can latch onto?
Also, if your comments are in moderation, we can’t see them. I wasn’t ignoring you.
I heart this sentence
The first honest thing Meller has said on this board.
I’m presuming after the Nuclear Apocalypse, ’cause, mutants and all, but I await instruction!
Sorry DKM, feminism had nothing to do with why I reject being soft and fluffy. It is because I am quite literally incapable of being soft and fluffy (and in your ideal case, stupid.)
@ Hellkell – No kidding. Do you think my endless British lecturing about how poor his manners are is sinking in?
I don’t think so–you’re not the “proper” woman to him, so your British lectures are falling on deaf ears. I think he just slipped for a moment.
We could try the same lectures in Japanese? I have a friend who’d just love to tell him all about the error of his ways.
I also know a really awesome heavy metal singer who could do the same, but in German. In fact, I’m sure we could find at least one woman from every nation on earth to point out to Meller how horribly ill-mannered he’s being.
DKM and the Concerned Members of Humanity Band?
Ill mannered?!
I refrain from using bad language, I never miss an opportunity to complement women on their good points, I try my best to accomodate your points of view, even citing a feminist type woman (Ayn Rand) to youall in support of my ideas, I stand shoulder to shoulder with youall in my condemnation of posts that viciously and obscenely insult women (NoMarriage.com and more recently, the horrid attacks on women displayed in mencallmethings.com. You don’t have to thank me, but at least acknowledge that I refrain from joining my fellow males in their particular instances of cruelty to women! I also take every opportunity to complement how lovely I think that women are, and how much I appreciate their femininity, charm, playfulnes, serenity, and empathy! Youall don’t have to thank me for any of this, but don’t accuse me of being “ill mannered”.
Actually, I think that, occasional lapses aside, I am more decent to you than most critics of manboobz. Even those lapses can be explained by how I am sometimes treated inconsiderately, if not harshly, by feminists on this blog! Sooner or later–make that sooner instead of later–I respond in kind.
As far as PFKAE is concerned about her failure to be “soft and fluffy”. Think nothing of it! I am quite literally incapable of loving (or having any positive feelings whatever) a woman who is NOT “soft ‘n’ fluffy”. Cf, my recent statements regarding Ayn Rand. I may admire her ionospheric IQ, but that is IT! Even if my SnF women are often more intelligent and perceptive, however, than most over-educated feminists!
I gave a reply to your query about my favorite women, past and present, fictional or non-fiction, zhinxi, but it was moderated out! I haven’t fared well in answering questions like yours on manboobz. and for that reason, I politely declined! As a rule, all that happened is the feminist hive swarmed to the attack, using my reply to attack me every chance they had!
.
Oh! Meller answered me here on the “name a proper woman” question
http://manboobz.com/2011/10/20/nomarriages-com-part-two-american-women-have-personalities-similar-to-the-horrible-odor-they-emit/comment-page-8/#comment-79126
“Why should I? Just so you feminists could criticise them, and me,for choosing them? So that you could find fault with delightful, charming, and often quite beautiful women and girls, while justifying youselves as women(?) completely devoid of humor, charm, playfulness, sexiness (except on the grossest, most elemenal level) fluffiness and femininity?
Get yourself another patsy!
My naming my favorite ladies would merely be giving lumps of coal the opportunity to put down brilliant sparkling diamonds, or giving paper the opportunity to attack 24-carat gold!”
Okay…
…If we guess, or get close, can you say “warm” or “cold”? And the thing is, I don’t even know where to start guessing.
Because even among the most traditional, demure, “proper” ladies of fact and fiction, I can’t think of anybody that’s… fluffy. This isn’t about wanting to criticise other women, really, it’s about trying to visualize what you want us to be. Because not all traditional conceptions of women are alike, or even all that similar. Can you give us, at least, a time period and culture in which these women were common? A specific one, not a “traditional” or “true” or “before feminism?”
And I think the main “fault” I would find with these women, well real ones and not fictional ones, should you name them, is that you’ve stripped them of their complexity, forcing them into the category of… fluffy… whatever that is. How are we fluffy?
And by we of course, I guess I must mean they, being disqualified from this fluffyness.
“My naming my favorite ladies would merely be giving lumps of coal the opportunity to put down brilliant sparkling diamonds, or giving paper the opportunity to attack 24-carat gold!”
It’s like Rock Paper Scissors, but with women and jewelry! You know, since women are adornments rather than people.
Also, if no fluffy ladies exist anymore, Meller is going to be talking about *deceased* ladies. We might snark at them, but it’s probably not gonna hurt ‘em too much at this point.
And besides the past… He seems to think the future will somehow produce sex bots, yet in post-scarcity heaven, men will put on suits and ties, and go forth into post-war style wage-jobs. It’s like a 50’s sci fi utopia, but he makes sure to let us know we’ll be replaced with robots… And this isn’t gonna make it a dystopia or anything. Also, gold standard.
(See, again, I guess I should point out to meller that I really don’t have a problem with gold as money. I have a problem with the state having a monopoly on currency. The gold vs. fiat fights just strike me as a serious waste of libertarian time. We should be ensuring we can let gold compete with fiat in a free market against parallel economies not.. Okay, nevermind. I can only look towards the popular mechanics World Of Tomorrow. With sexbots. Paid for in Aurum!)
“Also, if no fluffy ladies exist anymore, Meller is going to be talking about *deceased* ladies. We might snark at them, but it’s probably not gonna hurt ‘em too much at this point.”
That. And I specifically said fictional ladies are totally fine.
Hear that, Bagelsan? We women scientists are mutants! When do I get my eye beams?
I feel like Rogue’s power to kill by touch alone would be more appropriate for an evil feminist scientist.
Right after we discover the gene to make us all grow vagina dentata, natch. ^^
So, Meller’s definition of a ‘good woman’ is a woman who’s willing to be his complete and utter slave, who bakes, sews and keeps house and knows how to raise children. See, you’re defining womanhood by what you want a woman to be – and if you can find a woman willing to do that, then more power to you crazy kids – but your desires are not universal. Despite your delusions, there are men in this world (real, actual non-emasculated men) who actually want a woman with.. gasp… opinions!
Mutants and sexbots and pomeranian housekeepers – what a future! :)
Meller: Taking only one example: It is certainly possible that the first and second world wars (fought at least in part to control oil fields, shipping lanes and access points) killed and maimed as many people in the years from 1914-1945 as all of the wars that have been fought over gold and its mining, shipping, and storage, over the past 6000 years,
No. The wars for South/Central American Gold (irrespective of the search for spices in the Americas) killed somewhere between 100-300 million people.
That’s just one aspect of the ways in which things like the desire to control things like tin killed people.
And you aren’t taking the question of proportionality into account. 200 million people in 1500 was a much larger part of the world populace than 50 million in 194-1918.
Meller: Ill mannered?!
I refrain from using bad language, I never miss an opportunity to complement women on their good points
Wrong, twice. A lack of fucks and bitches is not the same as not using bad language. You tell women they aren’t really women because they don’t do what you want them to. You call them harpies and beasts, and say they would enjoy them suffering an agonising death because they are feminists.
That, my dear boy, is rude in the fucking extreme.
You “compliment” women for being the sort of slavishly adoring sexbot you think you deserve, and refuse to admit they might have any good points (intellect, wit, compassion) if they step outside the miserably small bounds you want them to stay in.
You, are an asshole.
darksidecat: There have been commentors on this very blog who suggested that a forced death march that killed a third, respectively, of two peoples was no genocide.
One of whom was MRAL, the boy who just proclaimed non-whites who don’t know/care about white on white genocide to make white on non-white genocide less worthy of note.
There’s a common confusion that being polite or having good manners is about doing and saying, or refraining from doing and saying, specific things. Wrong. Politeness is about making the other person feel welcome and valued. If you aren’t doing that, you aren’t being polite.
Damn, I made a mistake: Meller says he would enjoy them suffering a lingering and agonising death, because they are feminists.
This is his idea of not using bad language, and being loving.
Meller thinks that good manners is everyone else kissing his ass, and bad manners is when a woman doesn’t kiss his ass. He also thinks that telling women that they should be killed if they refuse to submit to his demands is perfectly polite and reasonable.
As much as most of the time I just think he’s an angry old man railing at the world, there are moments where I suspect that he may actually be a sociopath. It’s an interesting philosophical question – at an extreme level is misogyny indistinguishable from sociopathy on a practical level?
“Actually, I think that, occasional lapses aside, I am more decent to you than most critics of manboobz.”
“I am quite literally incapable of loving (or having any positive feelings whatever) a woman who is NOT “soft ‘n’ fluffy”.”
Is anyone else having a really hard time reconciling these two statements made by our good friend DKM here? How is it descent to have absolutely no positive feelings towards any woman that is not “soft ‘n’ fluffy,” whatever that means…
By the way, DKM, complementing women on living up to your cotton-ball dream-like standards of how a woman should be a man’s docile plaything while criticizing women who seem to exhibit some form of free will isn’t being decent. It’s just… well, really it’s just another way for you to beat us over the head with what you think 50% of the world’s population should be like; enslaved to the other 50%. And that’s just plain rude.
Just went back to read some of DKM’s earlier rantings… Astounding that MRAL once called this dude a legendary figure amongst the MRAs…
“Who knows, maybe we would evolve toward a truly free society, where women were free TO BE FEMALE as traditionally understood, men would be free to be–and welcomed being– MEN, and we would also be blessed with an inflation (and depression)-proof world with ever improving material standard of living and (men’s) economic opportunity outside the home!”
I can only imagine the phrase “traditionally understood” can only mean tracing back to the earliest known societies, where:
“There was no significant division of labor. Stone Age humans pretty much did the same jobs – at least some of the time. And when the women did remain behind, they spent much of their time inventing the tools and foundations of future society.” – source Bonus points for mentions of mammoth hunting!
With regards to his economics, I’m a bit puzzled… Someone might be able to help me out, but isn’t the idea of a stagnant economy (no inflation or deflation) contradictory to the idea of any sort of overall improvement in standard of living and economic opportunity?
http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/
Since I’m spamming, here’s my tumblr! :D
It’s now been talked about on 2 feminist blogs! :D I’m waiting for the MRA “BUT MEN HAVE IT WORSE IN COMICS” response xD
I’ve gotten a troll like that on my blog before XD (BUT MEN HAVE TO BE RICH AND BILLIONAIRES LIKE TONY STARK AND BRUCE WAYNNNNNEEEE!!!!! I WILL IGNORE ALL OTHER MALE SUPERHERO OCCUPATIONSSSSSS! XDDD )
I thought MRAL called Eoghan the legendary figure… xD
Are they ALLL legendary figures to MRAL? o:
We should ask MRAL who are his top MRA idols :D
OMFG MRA IDOL! REALITY SHOW!!!
Now I want to do this xD
WHO WIL WIN MRA IDOL! TUNE IN TONIGHT!
David K. Meller | November 7, 2011 at 7:48 pm
I gave a reply to your query about my favorite women, past and present, fictional or non-fiction, zhinxi,
Hey DKM can you do me a favour and recite the alphabet for us? :D
I want to test a theory xD
I’m soft and fluffy! :D
*bounces around*
but DKM hates me xD
So I think he lies XD
Srsly… I’m like the MRA perfect idea of a woman xD I’m uber femme… super boppy… optimistic, forgiving, nice, happy… cute, thin, ASIAAANNNNNNNN… I like all the right girl things: Barbie, Cats, Bunnies, GIANT LASERS OF DOOMMMMMMMM!!! I can run in heels, enjoy wearing skirts (and pants! *GASP* ) and they all think I have an IQ of -500 xD
And yet they all are frightened of me and think I’m vile and cruel xD
I think they know not what they desire… XD
MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAHHHAAAA
:D
It’s Amis ALL THE WAY DOWN! >:D
Ami and I should have a cute-off. Who is the most adorable one of all?
Well, maybe Ami wins by virtue of not being a goth. I’m more cute in a Wednesday Addams sort of way. But a guy who I’ve worked with before who I’m setting up another interview with did describe me as “the lovely British girl with the pretty curls”. And I’m only 5ft2!
But I have free will, and I think Meller is a sexist toolbox, therefore clearly I am evil.
Also I don’t usually bother commenting on his economic theories, because the rest of the crew seem to have it covered, but really, dude, take an economics class. Maybe crack open a macroeconomics textbook occasionally. The American dollar is not about to fail at any moment, inflation at the rate it has experienced is normal and not a sign of crisis, and any actual economic problems that the US has cannot be solved just by throwing gold at them.
Also, is it just me or does anyone else get the urge to call him Gimli when he starts babbling about money? Gold! Grouchy and conservative! But a bit too exciteable, overall, and not nearly as endearing.
As a fat woman with curly hair, I am both soft and fluffy.
This may be a bit OT, but I’m interested in getting to know a few of you quite a bit better, so if Mr Meller won’t answer the question what do the others here think? You are your favorite female fictional protagonists or women you consider to be role models?
Personally, I have a fondness for Elizabeth Bennett (witty, funny and with a heart big enough to admit a mistake) Elizabeth the First (yes we can be wise and effective rulers, even under very difficult conditions) Isabella, from Measure for Measure (there was one incredibly brave and admirable woman) Rosamund from As you Like It (now there was a woman who knew how to enjoy herself) Viola, from Twelfth Night (sad and lost but found herself eventually) and for sheer bloody-minded courage and determination it’s difficult to go past Ofred from A Handmaid’s Tale. All these women had relationships with men (although Ofred and Isabella’s were nightmares) but aren’t subsumed into them and they never lose their identities.
Do other people have favorites?
Cassandra says:
“Also, is it just me or does anyone else get the urge to call him Gimli when he starts babbling about money? Gold! Grouchy and conservative! But a bit too exciteable, overall, and not nearly as endearing.”
I think that might be doing Gimli an injustice. After all, valued his friend Legolas enough to leave all his gold and run away with him to the East. I doubt that Mr Meller would do such a thing because 1. Gold 2. People might think he’s gay and We Can’t Have That.
There is more to manners than refraining from profane language and praising the kind of woman you find attractive.
Refraining from wishing horrifically painful illnesses and deaths on those of us you dislike would be an excellent start.
Maybe Thorin? We do have a line in the Hobbit about how he would rather sit on a heap of gold and starve than share. Though Thorin does realize the error of his ways at the end and comments that gold and silver aren’t much use when you are dead (essentially).
Meller, here’s a few basics you might want to take into account: 1) states make laws, 2) even under old British Common Law (which the bulk of the world has never used) you misconstrue the elements (old British Common Law allowed both bank notes and promisory notes, though the rules regarding liability differed from later American law) 3) look up the term “endorser” and “endorsee”. This is like trying to have an argument about satellite technology with a flat earther, you know so very little about the subject.
Philippa, well you’ve said a lot of my favorites, especially Elizabeth Bennett. I also liked Elinor Dashwood from Sense and Sensibility. And I know it’s a kids book but Pippi Longstocking was a big childhood hero of mine. Do movies and tv shows count? Scully is really great in the first few seasons but then she turns totally lame, I was pretty annoyed at what happened to her character.
Another key difference is that Meller, unlike Gimli, probably would have told Galadriel that the elves would be better off if she deferred to Celeborn’s natural manly authority and went back to the kitchen to bake some lembas for the boys.
That’s assuming, of course, that being in the presence of woman bearing a Ring of Power wouldn’t make Meller wet himself in terror and run away.
Ooh, fav female protagonists? So many I literally couldn’t possibly list them all, but among them are Cordelia
NaismithVorkosigan from the best Bujold series evah, Alanna from those Tamora Pierce books, Cimorene from Patricia C. Wrede, Granny fucking Weatherwax from Discworld, various characters from Lackey’s Valdemar world, and if we can count TV shows then the women of BSG, Firefly, and Parks and Recreation get shoutouts too. But there are a billion more.Most of these women are notable for not being particularly fluffy or soft, all are quite smart, and many of them are downright militant and spiky (Granny Weatherwax is spiky in the stab-you-with-hatpins way, for example.)
You’re also cute, Holly! You like soft fluffy animals, which is very womanly and suitable for a sweet old fashioned girl! But since you’re not a doormat, clearly you’re not deserving of life in Meller’s post-apocalyptic paradise.
And it’s true, Gimli has redeeming qualities that Meller completely lacks. As he himself has pointed out, Meller’s only redeeming quality is that he doesn’t use as much profanity as the other trolls. Then again, even NWO doesn’t openly fantasise about killing off 95% of women.
Aside – I’m really starting to see why Ami gets under their skins so much. She’s like a Powerpuff Girl, and people who’re filled to the brim with hate just don’t know how to deal with that kind of sunny positivity.
Also, almost all of Pratchett’s female characters would get at least a small spot on my list, which is one of the many reasons he’s such a remarkable writer.
Also just all of Pratchett’s Monstrous Regiment. Just all of it.
Ninjaed! :D
I must admit I’m particularly fond of Maledicta.
Here you go.
He also seems to care about animal welfare, while I can’t imagine NWO just hanging out with, say, a cat, and I think if a dog or cat set MRAL off, he’d eviscerate it or something.
I must admit I’m particularly fond of Maledicta.
Same here. I admit this is due in no small part to coffee addiction being something I strongly relate to, but Maledicta’s just awesome in general.
I loved the way the reveal of Maledicta’s gender played out. At first I was going, look, he would have been my dream boy when I was a teenager! And then, oh, OK, he can be my dream girl too, that works.
Maledicta Love!
Meller: Once you’re saying any group of people can be ruined by “overeducation” – it’s pretty hard to argue you’re talking about nature or freedom.
What counts as overeducation?
Is it really so bad for me to be getting a history PHD so I can go out there and do all that Libbertarian Laissez-Faire Lecturin? If I get something on Mises.org, am I an “acceptable mutant?”
Also, forgive me for saying so, but you seem very out of touch with current libertarianism, left, right, center, whatever, except for awareness that Ron Paul is running.
Are you familiar with names such as Radley Balko, Mary Ruwart, Kevin Carson, Wendy McElroy, Sheldon Richman, Stephen Molyneu, Karen DeCoster, Nick Gillespie, Thomas E. Woods, all of whom represent a spectrum of current libertarian politics.
Do you engage with and keep tabs on current issues in the wider libertarian community, or do you primarily discuss your libertarianism with white pride, conspiracy, mra, or traditionalist groups?
If I were to guess, I’d say “over-education” of a woman to Meller would be women learning any thing that can be used outside the home and must be learned to serve the purpose of pleasing a man.
Speaking of androgynous bad-asses, one of my absolute favorite female characters ever (not sure if she counts as a protagonist) has got to be Sir Integra Fairbrook Wingates Hellsing.
@zhinxy
shorter dkm: freedom’s just another word for never trust the jews
Favorite heroines? Most of mine have been mentioned, but Mary Russell from Laurie R King’s Russell-Holmes books springs to mind. Not only an intellectual match for Sherlock Holmes, but she’s a smart ass theologian.
Adding Lisbeth Salander to the growing list of androgynous bad-ass women! She would be the MRA menz’ worst nightmare, if not for being fictional.
Dracula:
Speaking of androgynous bad-asses, one of my absolute favorite female characters ever (not sure if she counts as a protagonist) has got to be Sir Integra Fairbrook Wingates Hellsing.
Well, I would assume so. How are things going with you and the Countess, now that you’re home, btw? Ceres and Pip doing well?
zhinxy: Well, things are pretty quiet these days. Not so many Nazis or warrior priests running about, you know. As for Pip, well, let’s just say he doesn’t get out much. Ceres is fine though.
Snowy:
Yes, I liked Elinor too. Smart, well educated (on her own recognizance, what’s more). I’ve not read Pippi and I really must but I have a huge fondness for Alice. Such a brave, smart, inquisitive little girl!
I agree with you about Scully. Really amazing to begin with but such a let down!
Bagel-San: a lot of those names are unfamiliar to me, so thank you for drawing my attention to them. I must do some hunting! And yes, Granny Weatherwax definitely rock as do Pratchet’s other witches! I’ve not read the Mostrous Regiment and I really must. I loved the Firefly women, and the men were pretty amazing too.
Dracula: definitely Integra! I was quite fond of Victoria as well.
KathleenB: not read those but it definitely looks like I should! Have you read the Wimsey books by Dorothy L. Sayers? Harriet Vane from those is one of my all time favorites. She’s as smart and funny as Wimsy as well as complex and very brave. They were written in the 1930s and Sayer’s feminism is fascinating to read.
Xanthe: how could I forget the amazing Lizbeth Salander? Run for the hills, ye MRAs before she gets her tattoo machine out!