Feminism or death?
Here’s the entirety of a recent post by an MRA who calls himself Snark:
Uh, dude, I think you’ve confused “feminists” with “Daleks.”
Our new friend Fidelbogen thought this was such a brilliant idea he devoted a post to it himself, declaring:
Such economy, such concision. …
Really now, we wouldn’t go far wrong to make our rhetoric revolve around this above all, and very little more. The saying is deceptively simple, for it goes deep and reaches into many corners.
It puts them on the spot, and nails them there.
I knew Fidelbogen was a bit of a pompous doofus, but this is a whole new level of stupidity for him. I don’t even know what to say about something this idiotic.
Also, check out the comments to Snark’s piece. There’s something about potatoes you kind of have to see to believe.
Posted on September 22, 2011, in antifeminism, idiocy, MRA, violence against men/women. Bookmark the permalink. 1,516 Comments.
NWO: Shockingly enough, in common reality, that’s not what the law says. your ‘i reject your reality and substitute my own’ game is just as stupid as Toysoldier’s. And even more pointless, which is saying something.
NWO, it would REALLY help if YOU read what the fuck you posted. In the other thread, there was already a take down of your critique of Title IX, which, surprise, surfuckingprise, DOES NOT state what you claim it does.
You wanna be a tinfoil hat wearing, rage-filled asshole? That’s fine, just know what you’re doing before showing your ass for the umpteenth time. Having it handed to you has got to be getting old.
The delusion is strong in this one.
Well, Owly thinks that arresting people is not due process. If you accept his wrong premises he’s totally right!
There’s something really funny to me about the fact that even when attempting to one-up people via YouTube links Toy Soldier’s argument is still an “I know you are but what am I”.
(The U2 clip)
Snowy: The links are there. Nice try, though. But I understand why you keep dodging my question.
hellkell: Feminists are the ones who brought it up, so apparently they do care what I think about them.
Pecunium: My argument is that feminism, like any ideology, can cause good and bad behavior as a result of its doctrine. I realize that is a hard thing for feminists to wrap their heads around because it means viewing things as shades of gray rather than black and white. My challenge is that you prove your own assertion. It is not a gotcha question if I ask the person who argued it what evidence supports their position. Now, you essentially admit you cannot prove your own position, so I am curious as to why any of you would continue to argue it. And where did I say feminists cannot be trusted? Feminists need to understand that disagreeing with your positions is not the same as not believing you. Again, I realize that is a hard thing for feminists because they disbelieve anyone they disagree with, but I promise you the thoughts are not mutually exclusive.
Rutee Katreya: We have the same taste in music, although I prefer Inner Universe.
Dracula: My aunt never said she did anything because of feminism, though. This seems to confuse feminists, but what my aunt did is no different than an Evangelical father beating his gay son to teach the boy that homosexuality is a sin. I do not think the father lied about Evangelical views on homosexuality, do you? I do, however, think that Evangelicals who may agree with and hold those views would try to distance themselves from that father by claiming the man lied or was not a “true” Christian or that their church opposes violence. Feminists started the debate, but it appears they are not interested in debating or the truth, just getting me to agree with any and everything they say, even if it means denying my own experiences.
Toysoldier:
There’s independent evidence that “homosexuality is a sin” is a part of Evangelical Christianity. Evangelicals may distance themselves from the fathers actions but I doubt anyone would say “that’s not what we teach.”
Try again.
Not dodging, just waiting for you to answer mine first. Toysoldier, why are you doing this like, online equivalent of putting your finger really close to my arm and going, “I’m not touching you! I’m not touching you!” Are you getting something meaningful from this exchange?
Oh and how’d you like the Bieber? How about a little Enrique!
“…when I was a child to teach me how evil “patriarchy” is.”
Your own words, describing your abuse. Did your aunt actually tell you this, or did you just make up this justification on your own?
And seriously, what is this supposed feminist doctrine you consider comparable to “homosexuality is a sin”?
Dracula: Didn’t you know that femism = men are bad, women are good? Haven’t you been reading the Book O’ Larnin’?
Hershele Ostropoler: There is independent evidence that “patriarchy is evil” is a part of feminism. How impressive then that here are feminists arguing “that’s not what we teach”. Nice try, though.
Snowy: If you read my post, I can only assume that you either refused to follow the links I listed or did follow them and simply do not want to admit it. Either way, this is simply your attempt to dodge defending your own claim. But thanks for showing how feminists engage in intellectual dishonesty.
Dracula: My aunt would say something akin to that,yes. I am referring to this this doctrine.
Huh, I think you forgot to quote the second half where it says “patriarchy is evil, and patriarchy means individual dudes, therefore rape little boys.” Perhaps that extrapolation to individuals, and a subsequent call for child abuse, are not actually included? 9_9
Those are the only two options, Toysoldier? I’m going to have to go with option three, “didn’t think they actually supported your argument that feminism causes all the woes of the world”.
I actually would have no problem answering your questions, but I’m going to keep on refusing to do that until you answer mine. Wouldn’t it be way easier to just answer my two simple questions than keep on with this continual, “oh I already did answer you! In this vague comment to someone else and on my website that now you have to read, and then links to somewhere else! That actually doesn’t say what I claim they say!” If anyone is being intellectually dishonest and dodging here it would be you. But you already knew that.
TS, do you even read the stuff you link to?
So you claim she didn’t say she was acting on behalf of feminism, while simultaneously describing her doing exactly that. Interesting.
Also, I fail to see the similarity between “Women are equal to men, and should be treated as such.”* and “Homosexuality is a sin.”
*”Patriarchy is evil.” is, to me at least, a gross oversimplification of this idea, commonly used to distort and discredit feminism. Kind of like what you’re doing right now.
Toysoldier
Any feminist worth her salt knows the women can contribute to the patriarchy just as much as men can. Outside of the twisty faster circle, you’re not gonna see a whole lot of feminists going “Men always oppress women on purpose. Most modern feminists do not blame men for everything and understand that men are hurt by patriarchy too, but that doesn’t stop feminists from calling out privilege when it does happen (and it does).
Also, saying “oh, women just think they’re perpetual victims!” belittles the real issues women go through simply for being women and that in and of itself is oppressive. Don’t believe me? What If I said to you “God, why do you have to always be a perpetual victim! It just makes you hate women/feminists!” You’d think I was kind of an asshole, right?
There is a difference between “angry” and “hateful”. Yea, sometimes feminists get pissed. But we don’t get “Let’s enslave all men” pissed. Please, find me something in any modern feminist website that even comes close to the examples of the vile garbage MRM spews that are all over this site.
…These seem to me like things that feminists (at least, all the ones I know) are really focused on changing.
And how are “male” boundaries different than female boundaries?
“You don’t view half the population as fully deserving of human rights” is an odd way to discredit another movement? Sure, you can drag out the strawfeminist and say that feminists don’t think of men as fully deserving of human rights, but that wouldn’t make you less wrong
I don’t think feminism made your aunt a shitty person. I do think it influenced how your aunt was a shitty person, but degree of shittiness?
Do me a favor and google “feminism race fail” before you talk about how feminists don’t think feminism is ever wrong. Thanks.
Bagelsan: Why you I include your ridiculous straw man?
Snowy: In other words, you are stalling. Again, thanks for showing how feminists engage in intellectual dishonesty.
Unimaginative: That does not disprove that feminists teach that “patriarchy is evil”. Nice try, though.
Dracula: Where did I describe my aunt saying she acted on behalf feminism? And lose the red herring. “Patriarchy is evil” accurately describes the position that feminists hold. Do you, as a feminist, disagree with the notion that “patriarchy”? Do you believe most feminists disagree with it?
Shorter TS: I cast magic missile! I’m attacking the feminists!
…Can I get that in English?
“So you claim she didn’t say she was acting on behalf of feminism, while simultaneously describing her doing exactly that. Interesting.”
I’m just reposting this point, because this is the whole contradictory crux of Toysoldier’s act.
TS: Here is a link to an article that proves that there “patriarchy is evil” is a feminist doctrine.
Unimaginative: That article doesn’t actually say that. In fact, it kind of says the opposite.
TS: Your comment on the article I linked to (which does not say what I say it does) does not disprove my fact claim (which I haven’t proved either, but wevs).
Unimaginative: Fuck it. I’m going to go eat some turkey. Happy Thanksgiving to everyone celebrating it.
Shorter Toysoldier: I’m still not touching you! I’m not touching you I’m not touching you! Nyah nyah nyahhhh!
I’m not seeing how one can hold such contradictory views at once without their brain exploding. Perhaps this is Toysoldier’s superpower? We shall call him… Cognitive Dissonance Man! Defeating feminism with the awesome migraine-inducing powers of contradictory ideas!
I find it hard to believe you actually don’t get this, but I’ll bite.
A professed feminist told you she was trying to show you the evils of the patriarchy through her abuse. What else could she be claiming to do? If, according to you, she wasn’t acting toward advancing feminism, or at least pretending to, then you have no argument here, not even the weak one you won’t even fully own up to making.
As to your second point, I did not say feminists aren’t opposed to patriarchy. I said “Patriarchy is evil.” is an oversimplification, intended to distort. I stand by that.
I have no intention of arguing this any further, since all you’re interested in doing is splitting hairs to misrepresent other people’s positions while refusing to properly define your own.
Shora:
While it is true that most feminists do not argue “men always oppress women on purpose”, many modern feminists do argue “men always oppress women”, just as many of them hold all men collectively responsible for whatever ills “patriarchy” may cause women.
I never said “oh, women just think they’re perpetual victims!” I said “the “women as perpetual victim” thinking prompts misandry.” That thinking is unfortunately common within the feminist movement, and it can lead to feminists projecting all their problems onto men, just as the “men as perpetual victim” thinking in the men’s movement can lead to men’s activists projecting all their problems onto feminists. The moment a person holds a group mostly or wholly responsible for most or all their problems, they invite scapegoating.
If you said, “God, why do you have to always be a perpetual victim! It just makes you hate women/feminists!” I would not consider you an asshole, but just a typical feminist. And it is really not difficult to find hateful, vile, feminist nonsense. Setting that aside, all anger is not always justified, reasonable, or understandable, and I think that applies to a lot of the anger feminists display.
Perhaps the feminists you personally know try to change things, but in general most feminists do not acknowledge, let alone focus on, feminist discrimination against males. As for your question about boundaries, why is male in quotes?
Regarding the way feminists try to discredit men’s rights activism, it is odd because not only do feminists rely on a straw man argument, but it is behavior that feminists object to when someone does it to them and something feminists claim they oppose. It is hypocritical at best, and down right malicious at worst.
I do not think feminism made my aunt a terrible person, either, although I curious as to why you think an ideology would not influence the degree of a person’s bad behavior. As for the race issue, bell hooks covered this several years ago. To my recollection, no one questioned feminism, only feminists for failing to include the experiences opinions of women of color in their theories. If I got that wrong, please correct me.
“Straw man” like… direct quotes and links? I think at that point it’s a plain old “man.” :p
Bagelsan: Why would I include your ridiculous straw man?
Dracula: I find it hard to believe you actually do not get this, but I will bite: there is a difference between committing an act to forward a view and telling someone you are committing the act to forward a view. I never stated that my aunt told me, “I’m going to show you the evils of the patriarchy through my abuse.” I agree that she acted to advance feminism, but that does not mean she specifically stated that. But I do get why you are playing this game. You desperately want my aunt not to be a feminist, but you have no argument — not even your weak “your aunt said” nonsense — so you hope to confuse me or trap me in a “lie” of some sort.
Unimaginative: In other words, “Why, oh why won’t Toysoldier accept my completely unrelated, irrelevant quote as proof feminism does not argue ‘patriarchy is evil’?”
Snowy: In other words, you cannot support your argument, but you lack the integrity to admit.
We don’t want your aunt to “not be a feminist”; no one is arguing that. We’re arguing that her feminism did not influence her abuse of you anymore than the color of her hair or her job or her height or middle name or her ice cream preferences did. Because, for example, liking strawberry ice cream doesn’t make a person hate boys anymore than feminism does.
But yeah, I realize you will “na na NA” this too.
Then you should have no problem finding examples from every prominent men’s rights blog stating that half the population is not fully deserving of human rights. Yeah, that is what I thought. You cannot. Look, feminists do not have to care about men’s issues, but you do not get to claim that anyone who does thinks women should not have rights. But thanks again for showing precisely why I am not a feminist.
Small comment: That’s kind of funny considering that the standard feminist response to any man’s complaint is a variation of “stop whining”.
As noted above, you are arguing a negative. You cannot prove feminism, or any ideology, cannot influence a person’s behavior to the point that the person may commit violence. But if you think you can, please do so.
Look, it’s herp derp Toysoldier back with his lack of evidence and inability to challenge empirical fact. Come on you hypocrite liar who never gave a fuck about abuse, you still have failed to prove your first assertion through out all these comments. You keep dancing around.
Still haven’t answered anything really. Same old talking points, same old twists and accusations of others doing exactly what you do: You should rename yourself infinite strawman works. That is all you keep doing.
Let’s just apply Toysoldier to all things.
For instance, MRM influences men to shoot up judges offices and set themselves on fire.
…Oh, wait.
Also, MRA doctrine states that all members must fill condoms with purple powder and throw them around in their country’s parliaments. They must also dress up as superheroes and scale historical landmarks while in costume.
And yet TS can’t prove that feminism made his aunt do what she did, so maybe we can all STFU and talk about cats for awhile, eh?
Shorter TS: You can never definitively prove a negative. Therefore, every positive is automatically true.
Still missing my retarded kitty. :(
I’ve never seen NWOslave and ToySoldier in a room at the same time. They also both have an extraordinary ability to misrepresent what’s right in front of their faces.
All I’m saying is, you can’t prove they’re not the same person.
If only there were a blog dedicated to finding quotes about how women don’t deserve full human rights… a blog that often quoted MRAs… hmm…
You mean the completely unrelated, irrelevant quote that I pulled directly from the article you linked to as supposed proof that “patriarchy is evil” is a feminist doctrine? That one?
I guess that definitively answers the question of whether you actually read the stuff you link to.
Yeah, let’s go back to cats. Did everyone see that youtube clip of a cat barking out the window, and when it noticed it was being observed, it morphed back into meowing? I’ll try and link it, but I’m really bad at that.
My cat chirps like a bird when he see’s them outside an open window. I had no idea cats were so cool. Like so many things, including me, my mother hated cats. But feminism didn’t make her so hateful, her mother did. My sister turned out the same way, and she became a feminist. To say her era of late 60’s & 70’s feminism didn’t promote misandry is like saying rock ‘n’ roll didn’t promote drug use.
Damn. I knew the cats were up to something, but, yow, that’s creepy.
Five minutes earlier I bet that cat was recording a podcast.
That cat is amazing. And scary. Our Kami makes this funny grating chirp (srsly, I have no idea how else to describe it) when she’s stalking something. It’s a damned good thing she doesn’t have to hunt to live, she’d scare everything away! She also meows to herself when she’s getting ready to make a difficult jump. It took almost a day of pacing and meowing before she worked up the courage to jump up to the stained glass window.
The only time I’ve seen this is when men go on and on about not getting laid enough. So If by “Any man’s complaint” You mean “Complaining about not having access to another persons body when it pleases them” then yea, you’re right.
I don’t really think that’s what any man’s complaint is, though
@RevSpinnaker: I’m actually unclear what the point of your story was? Are we supposed to take away that feminism didn’t make your mom hate men, or it did?
Bagelsan: I never said my mother hated men. I said she hated many things including me. I was a little boy, not a man, when the hate started. She used me to get back at my father for cutting off her credit card at Marshall Field’s. It was her generation’s “privilege” to marry for money, just like her mother’s. Thank God women don’t do THAT anymore.
Rev: Lord and Lady, Freud would have a field day with your family!
“Our Kami makes this funny grating chirp (srsly, I have no idea how else to describe it)…”
That’s something cats do to better catch their prey’s scent. They rapidly draw air in and out of their nasal passages to absorb more scent particles.
Dracula: Ah, interesting. I guess that’s the first time I’ve ever heard it happen. Though, are they doing that when they kind of wrinkle their noses and curl their upper lips?
I kinda want to hand him a cigar and wave him toward a couch… and charge him $500 an hour.
KathleenB: I think so, yeah. How loud it is depends on how hard they’re doing it.
@KathleenB:
“Rev: Lord and Lady, Freud would have a field day with your family!”
No doubt.
@Bagelsan:
“I kinda want to hand him a cigar and wave him toward a couch… and charge him $500 an hour.”
And who says feminists are mean-spirited, cynical and vindictive when it comes to maternal child abuse against boys.
“And who says feminists are mean-spirited, cynical and vindictive when it comes to maternal child abuse against boys.”
Who says, indeed.
Vindictive? You don’t have to accept the cigar if you hate it that much! XD
Let’s not forget Freud abandoned his “seduction theory” due to social pressure. He found most of his female patients being treated for “hysteria” had been sexually abused as children. He called it presexual sexual shock. His colleagues, and their wives, refused to believe sexual abuse occurred so often. That nice Dr. So & So would never do that. Malnurturing wives covered for coabusive relations and target abuse. Freud changed his reality based findings to “wish fulfillment fantasies” more commonly known as the Oedipal complex.
Women, especially feminists, feel the same way about maternal abuse. It just can’t happen that often.
Have those statistics about American women killing more of their own children than any other mothers in the industrialized world sunk in yet?
Maybe it’s just men “whining.”
http//:www.esterson.org/Masson_and_Freuds_seduction_theory.htm
Right back atcha sweetheart.
“Women, especially feminists, feel the same way about maternal abuse. It just can’t happen that often.
“Have those statistics about American women killing more of their own children than any other mothers in the industrialized world sunk in yet?”
Yes, Rev., we know women commit abuse.
No, Rev., we still don’t live in a matriarchy.
““Have those statistics about American women killing more of their own children than any other mothers in the industrialized world sunk in yet?”
Yes, Rev., we know women commit abuse.
No, Rev., we still don’t live in a matriarchy.”
Also, Rev is aware that America is not the only country with a significant feminist presence, right?
I’ve seen lots of cats do it. It sounds a lot like the sound a squirrel makes when angry. I wonder if it confuses their prey into thinking it’s a harmless rodent sneaking up on them
Ok, Dracula answered it.
I never would have guessed it.
Now I know more about cats.
CassandraSays: You mean like how feminist doctrine tells women to dress in lingerie or underwear and march to reclaim “slut”?
katz: Nope, that is an illogical argument. My actual, logical argument is that you cannot prove a negative, therefore the positive is potentially true.
Bagelsan: If only. Too bad all we have is a blog dedicated to quoting random comments out of context and claiming every member of a group agrees with those comments.
Unimaginative: Yep, that completely unrelated, irrelevant comment that does not disprove that “patrirachy is evil” is part of feminist doctrine anymore than quoting some pastor saying, “Christianity is about loving others” disproves that “homosexuality is sinful” is part of Christian doctrine.
Flib: I would agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.
So let me get this straight, toysoldier. You’re gonna keep beating up on strawfeminism because…. we can’t prove a negative?
You might as well just stick your fingers in your ears and say “lalalalala I’m not listening!”
He’s established that you can’t logically prove a negative, and he’s also not gonna rest until we all agree that feminists aren’t keen on the patriarchy. (In the next thread I hope he relentlessly defends “the sky is blue” and “2 + 2 = 4″!)
What is Toysoldier’s actual argument here? If he ever said, somewhere in the last 17 pages I lost track.
So here are things I do not dispute:
* TS’s aunt abused him.
* Feminists are opposed to patriarchy.
Here are the things I do dispute:
* Feminism is bad.
* If there were no feminism, TS’s aunt would not have abused him.
* The abuse of TS was a feminist act and would be recognized as such by feminists.
* Feminism as a movement/ideology/philosophy permits and even encourages and approves of abuse of boys.
Toysoldier, are you claiming any of the three things in the second group? I should point out that saying “show me where I said any of that” isn’t an answer. I’m asking you here and now, do you agree with any of them?
And everyone, if he does not claim any of those things to be true, what are we arguing about?
That said:
Toysoldier:
You should have no problem finding examples from every prominent feminist blog stating that half the population is not fully deserving of human rights. Otherwise, again, on what are you basing your argument?
Is Rev familiar with the fact that hte US is one of the least feminist industrialized nations? I mean, it’s ahead of Japan and China, but says much, that does not.
Toysoldier: You are right, if you agreed with what I was saying, you might be honest for once in this thread. But sadly, one ounce of honesty doesn’t invalidate the rest of your bullshit.
He believed his patients had been abused by their fathers.
….therefore matriarchy?
This is Protocols of the Elders of Zion level shit right here. Are you just spurting words at random by this point?
“Bagelsan: If only. Too bad all we have is a blog dedicated to quoting random comments out of context and claiming every member of a group agrees with those comments. ”
Oh, the delicious irony.
I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I. My name is Toy Soldier, and I can quite literally do this all day.
s/three/four. That’s what happens when you don’t proofread after the last edit.