Cosmetics: An evil plot to fool the men of the world into thinking that ladies are pretty
Evil female deceiver at work
Ladies! You may think you’ve got the men of the world fooled, but the guys over on MGTOWforums.com can see right through you! As dontmarry puts it:
Everything that a woman does is deceitful. From makeup, push-up bras and high heels, to fibbing about her dick count or proclamations of ‘I don’t mind marrying a poor man’ (oh yes you do).
That’s right, ladies! We know those eyelashes aren’t real! We know your cheeks aren’t really that rosy! And your lips aren’t really that red! And your boobies aren’t really … um, what was I saying? I got distracted thinking about boobies. Anyway, you’re all a bunch of liars! I bet some of you even wear Spanx, which are a tool of Satan.
Also, that thing he said about the dick count. Stop the lies! We demand dick count accuracy!
Posted on September 21, 2011, in $MONEY$, evil women, I'm totally being sarcastic, men who should not ever be with women ever, MGTOW, misogyny, oppressed men. Bookmark the permalink. 572 Comments.
I don’t like it either, but in this market it’s hard to argue with “Better to spend the time and money and have a reasonably good job overall”, in my book. But I’ve been unemployed long spells.
None of that makes it *fair* to demand though. Again, that is time, money, and effort. And it’s pressure, which MRAL *insists* doesn’t exist. Probably because he’s not a woman outdoors.
…Ah, and I did the thing I’m usually pretty good about, disproving an idiotic assertion with a personal anecdote that shouldn’t even be up for debate because of how stupid it is.
kysokisaen, I’m not trying to argue in favor of the requirement, just to observe the crappiness. From the employee’s perspective, there’s just not much you can do; rocking the boat is unwise when there are 150 other people who wanted your job.
Refer to my “pearls to swine” argument that I brought up in another thread. The typical pattern of liberals is to take anything their opponent says out of context, any argument, phrase, whatever, to misrepresent, and I’m not interested in giving any liberal that pleasure, however trite it might be. And whenever liberals are denied that pleasure, then they will just resort to name-calling, or tackling some other irrelevant point, like grammar. Just follow the above thread, to see what I mean. The evidence is there. Stock-standard, textbook. Liberals are simply not interested in rigor, truth, or the correct application of data. Why should they be? History has shown that everything they do relies on lies and manipulations. Only a fool debates with a child and then expects to be taken seriously.
Projecting again Chuckie.
Chuckie, so you’re refusing to present us with any data on the grounds that we’ll just misinterpret it anyway?
Why are you even bothering to talk to us?
The pleasure of seeing liberals squirm, employing all their aforementioned tactics and proving me right.
Emphasis should be on misrepresent rather than misinterpret. Though given that liberals are so stupid, misinterpret applies as well.
and the data we provide… that’s just a liberal trick.
Never mind that the actual attacks are on not on his grammar, but his rhetoric.
chuckee, ill say this about you- i admire your total comment to only speaking in cliches.
There is also his deft use of smileys.
That’s not squirming, it’s laughter. I’m still chuckling over the notion of Ann Coulter complaining that liberals argue in bad faith, which is a bit like Jeffrey Dahmer warning of the evils of cannibalism. Hilarity was never less intentional.
Interesting strategy you’ve got there, Chuck. Next time I play chess I think I’ll just shout “I’m on to your little game!” at my opponent, then refuse to make any moves. I think you’ll agree; my victory is assured.
CB: Yeah, it’s not as if chuckeedee is likely to rise to the skillful nuance of an Ann Coulter, but he is getting closer to being able to use an XD like the master.
XD
I have a hard time believing that Chuckie is really succeeding at making himself happy this way. YMMV, I suppose, but when you’re with an entire group of people who think you’re an idiot, flipping things around and saying, “No! I’m right and you’re the stupid ones!” is never very convincing (although marginally more so if you are right).
It’s like when you didn’t get invited to that party in middle school and you tried to convince yourself that you were having way more fun at home by yourself. You can say it, but you can’t make yourself feel it.
@chuckeedee
Sorry, it doesn’t work that way. In any basic discourse, you substantiate with fact. You refuse to do so. It’s pretty simple to see why you can’t back up your claims. You have no empirical basis in what you are saying. Until you produce some actual credible data, which is YOUR obligation to do so for your own claims, you words hold no meaning, no creditability, and no validity in any sense. This isn’t about liberal debate tactics. This is about actual science. You would be kicked out of any discussion in science, hard or soft, because you don’t bother to support your statements. You’ve been refusing to substantiate what you’ve been saying for a while here. You are lacking rigor, truth, and any data to even be correct on. You do not do the very basic act of producing data. You give no indicator to your validity and ability to handle data. You have no authority in the realm of discussion until you indicate you are capable of demonstrating any level of engagement with empirical facts.
Let me remind you, you haven’t given any iota of support for your statements. I suggest you re-examine what you are attempting to say, and provide basis for it. Otherwise, why the fuck are you wasting your time here? If you’re serious, that would be one thing. You could actually attempt to back up what you are saying. But since you have not done so, your only purpose so far seems to be what? Trolling? I give you 3/10 at best for that. Try harder.
Yeah, Chuckee is losing his entertainment value and barely even touching tangentially on the topics. I’m leaning in favor of him actually participating for good or ill of being tossed overboard.
He *is* the weakest link.
Vis a vis make up and the expense thereof:
I am something of a makeup fiend. Not that I visibly wear a lot (my mother and sister taught me early on that “If someone compliments you on your makeup, you are wearing too much”) unless I’m going for a red lip, but I do wear makeup every day when I go to work (Librarian) and when/if I go out on weekends.
$300 a month is INSANE. I wear name brands (Benefit, MakeUpForEver, Besame, Guerlain, Lush) and I would say that I don’t spend over $650 a year. The friend who is paying that much is being taken for a ride and quite frankly, once the makeup is on? No one can tell if you’re wearing Cover Girl from Dior.
Regarding makeup and the wearing thereof:
There are lots of reasons to wear makeup. Chuckeedee’s binary choice is ridiculous and falsely limited. On any given day I might be wearing makeup to:
Look more professional.
Match the retro 50’s dress I’m wearing.
Cover up temporary flaws (that I still sometimes get pimples at this age is horrifying, dark circles from being tired or red nose from having a cold are other examples).
Experiment with colors and techniques.
Look dramatic for a particular event.
Etc. and so on and so on.
And I’m only one woman! There’s millions of women who wear makeup. I am sure they all have their own reasons!
And finally:
Really, NWOSlave. Your continued refusal to state what clothing you, personally, find acceptable for women has gone past merely frustrating to actually laughable. You clearly have an opinion, because you react negatively to the imagined sluttitude of Every Woman In The World With Their Short Skirts And See Through Shirts (huh? where? do you live in a fantastical Rio De Janeiro where it is always Carnivale?) and insist that men have a right to harass said women. So what clothing must a woman wear to not be deserving of being harassed? It’s an easy question. It’s not at all difficult.
I will even answer yours. While in my opinion it is NEVER right for any person to verbally harass another person over what they are wearing, I will give my idea of appropriate wear for a few every day situations:
Running a Boy Scout Troop – Jeans or khaki’s, a non-printed T shirt or sweater (depending on weather), sneakers or comfortable walking shoes.
Going to a night club: Short skirt, heels not too high to be danceable, sparkly shirt.
Work in a fairly professional environment: Just above knee length or longer skirt or dress pants, blouse, cardigan or jacket depending on weather and preference. Or Suit. Or a dress of simple, spare cut.
Just walking around/living life/grocery shopping/day off work: Jeans, or a skirt, or shorts, or khaki’s, or yoga pants (depending on weather/preference), t-shirt, or sweater, or sweatshirt, or blouse, or tank top. Or a casual dress, with or without light sweater.
See, that’s not hard NWOSlave. I can be even more specific if you give me more specific events/climates/etc. Happy to do so.
Now answer the question, what, in your personal opinion, should women wear that is not deserving of harassment from men?
Katz: point taken for most of us mortals. But if you’re paying someone enough that you can unofficially require them to spend upwards of 4K a year in makeup alone to look “professional” enough (and holy hell, what must the rest of the package be costing her? You don’t put Ann Taylor skirts under a thousand dollar face) I am going to assume this is an employee that is not so easily replaced. Not impossible to replace, sure, but still someone with some bargaining power.
It doesn’t take a lot of thought to chide your employees for not hitting a standard that is only vaguely defined in your own head, especially if you can’t see how much it is costing them. Just getting all the women together to ask, “hey, fine, we agree to spend this much time and energy on our looks even though it doesn’t make a lot of sense, but please tell us exactly what you want” is a start. If it’s important enough to get in their faces about it’s important enough to give them a clear explanation, even if doing so leaves them open for lawsuits. Actually, especially so.
I would be curious to see that written down, because I suspect that the kind of place where management is willing to say your $300/month face still isn’t spackled to their standards seems likely to have an unspoken no fatties policy, or minorities OK as long as they look white enough policy, or any number of other shallow discriminatory policies.
I have a hard time believing that Chuckie is really succeeding at making himself happy this way. YMMV, I suppose, but when you’re with an entire group of people who think you’re an idiot, flipping things around and saying, “No! I’m right and you’re the stupid ones!” is never very convincing (although marginally more so if you are right).
I dunno, if his aim was to make the gang here froth itself up into a frenzy, then congratulate each other over their “pwnage” of him like it’s srs bzns, I’d say he succeeded pretty well.
It’s like when you didn’t get invited to that party in middle school and you tried to convince yourself that you were having way more fun at home by yourself.
If you’re a feminist, you just raise a ruckus and get the government to MAKE the host invite you to the party or be penalized otherwise. ;)
when you’re with an entire group of people who think you’re an idiot, flipping things around and saying, “No! I’m right and you’re the stupid ones!”
Isn’t that the core idea of most feminist blogs?
I swear, if a normal person hears 100 people telling him he smells like shit, he’ll eventually check his underpants. A feminist will just go “Oh, can’t you come up with something _original_? I made a bingo card!”
Except the party in the real life is actually jobs, for which people are paid, or options for education, so… not a very good analog.
And the smell analogy is just weird… it makes no sense whatsoever, because in one thing, we are talking about logic and in the other – stereotypes, unquestioned believes and the like.
Damn… are all MRA related fans THIS stupid?
Damn… are all MRA related fans THIS stupid?
Translation: “come on guys, agree with me! Let’s get the dogpile going!”
Short answer: yes.
I’m curious, Hengist. You’re constantly complaining about the “tone” of the posters here. You clearly believe that it’s rude to point out that poorly formed and/or erroneous arguments are poorly formed and erroneous. You bring almost nothing salient or of value to the discussions. And, even now, in this half-assed defense of -or show of “solidarity” with- chuckeedee you offer no facts or even opinions that explain why you think he’s right.
So other than the obvious delight you take in being offended by the deplorable manners of the manboobz “gang,” why exactly are you here? I mean, you know you don’t have to be here right? The world wide web is huge. If you want to be a one man “amen corner” to all of the “feminists are bad, and stupid… and smelly” whirling about the blogosphere, please allow me to poInt out that there are any number of spaces that will accommodate you, beautifully.
Hengist when people again and again can’t form a logical argument and their posts and comments fall to “womenz suck because I said so” yes, there is a moment in which one could fairly ask if everyone is that challenged since none of the groups show any criticism to these people, so they either approve or do not think that those people are in the wrong.
Dogpile indeed, of people who expect logic, arguments and to a some extent at least, consistency.
But where’s the fun in going to a place where everyone agrees with you? That’s for the weak-minded and insecure *cough, cough*.
Hengist when people again and again can’t form a logical argument and their posts and comments fall to “womenz suck because I said so”
Which is very different from “womenz are oppressed by evil menz because I said so”, yes? Here’s a question, how are you or people you know oppressed in their day-to-day lives for being female? Since you keep talking about facts and logic and all that.
Hengist, do resist the temptation to explain anything to these people. A formidable adversary always deserves a reply. These people are not formidable, they are toxic. They are applying mob principles to shout down dissent. No matter what you say, no matter how powerful your argument, they’ll just shout it down. Refer Ann Coulter. Anticipate their predictable reaction to the mere mention of Ann Coulter’s name… her book, btw, hits the nail right on the head as to what I’m talking about – she’s writing about them:
Demonic: How the Liberal Mob Is Endangering America
Main difference: there is a proof for the latter but for the former it all derives from erasing personalities and agendas for different people and slamming them under the same tag and acting if there are nothing more than a bunch of perceived stereotypical beliefs.
So… no, your logic is incorrect here.
Hengist.
I’m pretty lucky, since I’m straight, look mostly white, and am if not conventionally attractive then at least good looking, so I’m spared from some egregious examples of sexism. however
On any given day I am harassed by men who believe they are entitled to my time, attention and body
On any given day I have to choose between wearing what I want to wear (something flattering. Not even mini skirts and halter tops, but normal shirts and jeans that fit) and something that will allow me to avoid harassment (baggy clothing, frizzy hairstyle, ect)
I lost a job at a catering hall because of my refusal to wear makeup and high heals, on shifts that were 8 hours long and I was not allowed to sit.
My opinions are routinely dismissed by me being an “emotional female”, especially when it is “that time of the month.”
I often have to pitch my voice lower and act calmer then I am (indeed, calmer then any male counterpart) to be taken seriously at all
Slut shaming, in some form or another, is near constant
When I am upset, it is almost never because something is upsetting. It’s because I’m a crazy female
I have to choose between speaking up when something bothers me and being the humorless feminist with no friends, or just letting it simmer but keep the peace. If I were to say anything, it wouldn’t be taken seriously anyway, because I’m just “oversensitive”
Check out http://myfaultimfemale.wordpress.com/ for some more stories about oppression in day to day lives.
I think chuckeedee is a Poe. No one has that big a crush on Ann Coulter.
NullPointer: Bill Maher did.
Perhaps we ought to give chuckeedee’s Pearls of Wisdom™ the attention they deserve, and let the crickets chirp after them.
Hengist:
If 100 people are telling you that you smell like shit, that may not just be a “dogpile.”
That’s right, Chuckee! Don’t engage these silly liberals! But be sure to keep coming back to say that you are not engaging these silly liberals. That’ll show us.
As opposed to the massive amounts of security on prominent display from someone who comes into a place where people disagree with them, presents absolutely no cogent arguments in defense of their beliefs or positions, and then whines -incessantly- about how mean everyone is.
So strong-minded, that.
You do realize that the posters here actively engage people who disagree with them every day. And, generally, with ideas that consist of far more than “dogpile!”, “y’all are bullies!”, and “evil menz!!!”
Tell you what, Hengist, I’ll be happy to provide just a few examples from my own life as well as the lives of other women I know personally, of inequity, discrimination, sexual assault and harassment. Just as soon as you point out, with citations, exactly where I, or any other poster on this board, have actually made the argument that “womenz are oppressed by evil menz because I said so”.
Deal?
I really like chuckeedee’s crush on Coulter. Really. Not only does it provide background and context for why he thinks he’s an intellectual while being unable to write his way out of a paper-bag or defend his arguments coherently – it’s really cute. Plus, Coulter actually offers some, flimsy, anecdotal support to his belief that women are role-playing in their professional endeavors and use clothing and cosmetics to feel sexy and attractive. I mean, who’s a better example than Coulter? “Sexy Journalist/Pundit” has been her Halloween costume for years.
Ever hear of Mike Reed? It’s amazing how the guy described this place to a T before it even existed.
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/cybersisters.htm
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/swarm.htm
Shora, I have a sister and multiple female friends and I have never heard any of them complain of being ‘constantly’ harassed by men, of being slut-shamed, pressured into what to wear etc. Might I suggest that women who feel like this all the time could be a tad over-sensitive? Not saying it never happens, but when you go around expecting to be treated a certain way, you’re more likely to see examples of it everywhere.
Wasn’t make up invented by men?
Hengist, why would you bother asking women about their experiences if you were just going to dismiss them out of hand anyway? It certainly would have saved us all a lot of time and energy.
I am not your sister, and I am not your female friends. I’m pretty sure of one of your female friends or sister DID come to you with a similar experience, your reply to them would be equally dismissive (You’re just being oversensitive, it’s not that big a deal, my other female friends don’t have this problem, and so on). Perhaps your friends know that and wouldn’t come to you about it? It’s a thought.
Anyway, even if your entire circle of women you associate with experience no harrassment whatsoever, it still wouldn’t be proof against MY experiences and the experiences of many other women, some of whom posted on that link I gave you.
Might I add that dismissing someone’s lived experience as being oversensitive is just a tad oppressive?
Hengist, is it possible that they choose not to speak with you about these things because you: 1) kind of don’t believe they happen with any frequency and 2) don’t really care if they do? Any possibility, any what so ever, that they don’t want to share something that might be upsetting to them with you only to have you ask them if they’re being “…a tad over-sensitive?” Perhaps they don’t care to have their experiences dismissed and diminished the way you just dismissed and diminished Shora’s candid and detailed response to your challenge?
Might I suggest that the three or four women you know personally, while fine as a form of anecdotal evidence, can hardly be presented as a legitimate rebuttal to that response. Have you ever asked any of them about being harassed? Do you care?
If one of your female friends came to you and told you about a really ugly exchange she had on the street with a guy who told her she had “dick sucking” lips while she was waiting to cross the street, what would you say to her?
Ninja-ed.
Nobinayamu, I’d like to counter your theory with another: What if women really don’t feel that victimized and/or pay much attention to this stuff until they become indoctrinated by feminist circles and told how they’re supposed to feel (angry and victimized) or else they’re betraying the feminist cause?
Anyway, even if your entire circle of women you associate with experience no harrassment whatsoever, it still wouldn’t be proof against MY experiences and the experiences of many other women, some of whom posted on that link I gave you.
No, you’re right. It just shows that it’s not universal, and the ones who do claim to experience it are usually the ones who tend to overreact (sorry, I read through that site for a bit and 90% of the entries are of the “I got catcalled/somebody said women aren’t as good at x! I’m victimized by the patriarchy!”
“If one of your female friends came to you and told you about a really ugly exchange she had on the street with a guy who told her she had “dick sucking” lips while she was waiting to cross the street, what would you say to her?”
She should have told him “Thanks, so do you” :P
I’m going to repeat myself, since you seem to have completely ignored an important part of my reply;
Might I add that dismissing someone’s lived experience as being oversensitive is just a tad oppressive?
Don’t really believe that’s all that oppressive and think I am being oversensitive? Okay, let’s try a thought experiment. Let’s say I proclaim that men are never actually abused by women, and furthermore, I issue a challenge for a man to step up and describe his experiences with abuse. In response, I say that well, none of MY male friends, or my brother have ever told me they were abused, so maybe men who are abused are just pussies who need to learn to stand up for themselves?
You’d think I was kind of an asshole, right? Quite apart from the fact that by denying such abuse exists (and even if it DOES exist, it’s because those men are wimps) feeds into and reinforces a cultural trend in which men who are abused by women are silenced, shunned, and looked down upon as weak, is the very definition of oppression.
touché
So, if a male friend of yours came to you with the fact that his spouse abuses him, you would tell him “You should have just punched her back, man! You’re bigger and stronger than her, aren’t you?”
Do you see where I’m going with this?
Hengist, I’ve been walking around in my female body for a long time now. I didn’t like being harassed on the street when I was thirteen years old and I don’t like it now. Feminism and the “feminist cause” have nothing to do with it. I don’t think that every form of attention I receive/have ever received falls in the category of harassment. But that’s for me to decide as an individual. Like all women, I’m an individual. Not a monolith, not a hive mind; not someone walking around looking for reasons to be offended. There are women who feel harassed by things I just brush aside. There are women who feel flattered by attention I would consider harassment. Individuals.
All of this is beside the point. Shora answered you -pointedly, candidly, and in great detail- about some of the unpleasant experiences she’s had, and continues to have, because she’s female. And you chose to dismiss her experiences as unimportant because you know a few women and they don’t complain to you about harassment. Your rebuttal is asinine and illogical. As for the your “theory” have you ever read any books that have direct, first-hand accounts of how women who lived in cities and worked outside the home prior to the 60s and 70s, and the mainstreaming of second-wave feminism felt about sexual harassment?
And then if the guy that’s with him laughs and he gets mad and calls her a “fucking bitch”?
Hengist: I don’t see why women in your circle would tell you about experiencing harassment in the first place. After all, they are going to get shot down and told how they are just being typical irrational female hysterics, and it’s really not as bad as they think it is. Certainly, getting groped, catcalled, threatened, or treated dismissively in one’s place of work is not anywhere as bad as getting turned down for a date. That’s what you would tell them — right?
By the way, one of the manifestations of the oppression by women is the systematic denial that women’s own experiences, wants, desires or thoughts have any validity whatsoever. Especially when those experiences, wants, desires or thoughts make men feel uncomfortable.
I had men shout at me and my friends out of their cars back when I was still in junior high school, long before I became involved in feminism. It still upset and angered me.
Ooh… Are we playing “gendankenexperimenten” (what if stories)?
What if Hengist was knee-jerk anti-feminist who isn’t going to listen to any facts, or actual evidence; even when he’s asked for it, and will pretend his worldview is absolutely without fail at interpreting the events of other’s lives.
Yah, I know… too farfetched, no one would ever do something like that.
“Nobinayamu, I’d like to counter your theory with another: What if women really don’t feel that victimized and/or pay much attention to this stuff until they become indoctrinated by feminist circles and told how they’re supposed to feel (angry and victimized) or else they’re betraying the feminist cause?”
So really, what you’re saying is there’s no way women can think for themselves. With that attitude, do you really wonder why your sisters and friends don’t come to you with these experiences?
That’s an odd way to say it. Are you trans?
Agreed. And it’s up to others to decide whether you’re overreacting or not.
I wonder how many times an MRA gave a personal account here, only to be mocked and dismissed for it, but that’s beside the point. I never said I didn’t believe Shora, only that she might be oversensitive and her experiences might not be universal (and from what I can see, they aren’t). In this we basically agree. What’s illogical?
Were those books written by Andrea Dworkin and Gloria Steinem?
“And then if the guy that’s with him laughs and he gets mad and calls her a “fucking bitch”?”
Then he’d just look like an even bigger tool. Problem solved.
So really, what you’re saying is there’s no way women can think for themselves.
Only to the extent that people who get indoctrinated into a popular movement which seems to offer answers to difficult questions, ‘can’t think for themselves.’
With that attitude, do you really wonder why your sisters and friends don’t come to you with these experiences?
Yes, that’s the only possible explanation. Little known fact: All men have a purple elephant orbiting their heads at all times. The trumpeting of the elephant can get distracting at times, but it’s something they have to live with. The fact that none of them have told you about this means they don’t trust you.
“I’d like to counter your theory with another: What if women really don’t feel that victimized and/or pay much attention to this stuff until they become indoctrinated by feminist circles and told how they’re supposed to feel (angry and victimized) or else they’re betraying the feminist cause?”
I’d like to offer a related theory: What if blacks in the South really didn’t feel that victimized and/or pay much attention to stuff like not having any civil rights until they became indoctrinated by the Civil Rights circles and told how they’re supposed to feel (angry and victimized)? “Gee, calling me ‘boy’ at 40 years of age is disrespectful? You mean it’s not done out of affection?? Never thought of it that way. I guess now I’m gonna stop being sweet and appreciative, and start drinking at ‘whites only’ fountains and be a general pain in the ass to all the white folk who haven’t even ever whipped me, not once.”
And don’t huff an’ puff, Hengist, racism may at times have been worse than misogyny, but the argument you are making is still basically the same as the one in my hypothetical: “indoctrination” making an oppressed person question whether his or her status as a second-class citizen is “normal”.
“So, if a male friend of yours came to you with the fact that his spouse abuses him, you would tell him “You should have just punched her back, man! You’re bigger and stronger than her, aren’t you?”
Do you see where I’m going with this?”
Hold on, so far we haven’t been talking about physical abuse. But I’m not sure what your point is. Are men not allowed to hit back in self-defense or what?
Hengist,
I never said my experiences were universal. I did not outright say but did imply that my experience’s matter because they happened.
And no, it is not up to people who did not live my experiences to decide if my experiences matter or not. They happened to me, not to you, and you haven’t the slightest idea of my life, so it is ridiculous to think that you would be better at assessing whether or not I’m “overreacting” than I would.
Hengist: Being offended by catcalls is not an overreaction if for no other reason than the purpose of the catcall is to offend. It is not an overreaction to be offended by your ilk’s endorsement of such conduct, since what you are saying, basically, is that women have no dignity to begin with.
Shora: Certainly you can see how the person who is in the position to harass rather be harassed would see sexual harassment as no big deal. After an act of shitting, the shitter always feel better than the shitted-upon. I just don’t see why the shitter perceives himself as the ultimate impartial arbiter of how one should feel about being on the receiving end of it.
No, were were not talking about physical abuse. This is me reversing the roles to highlight the oppressiveness of dismissiveness.
So we started out with talking about street harassment and such because these are some experiences with oppression that I have dealt with. You dismissed those experiences, and I am trying to illustrate how the very act of being dismissive can be oppressive.
To do that I switched around the genders so that the gender that you care about most would be, in this new hypothetical scenario, oppressed. Since street harassment isn’t something men undergo on a regular basis, I used domestic abuse as an example.
Note!! I am not saying in any way that street harassment is as bad as domestic abuse! In this analogy, what matters is being dismissed, and the damage that comes from it, not the degree of the dismissal, the event, or the damage.
Now, in order to elaborate on my point, my hypothetical scenario (in which I say female to male abuse doesn’t happen, have someone tell me that that happened to him, and I dismiss it) is at is base, the exact same thing you did to me. By take what you did to me, and indeed, many women with similar experiences, and bringing them into another light, I hoped to show you what an asshole move it is to dismiss someone as being “oversensitive” when something bad happens to them.
In closing, my Point: Being dismissive to someones experiences, whether those experiences include street harassment, slut shaming, or domestic abuse, is an asshole thing to do. Stop it.
Not that it would make a difference but, no, I’m not trans. This is my female body; I am more than the sum of its parts.
Fine, Hengist, what qualifies as harassment? How will you determine if I’m overreacting or not?
Using your claim about your sisters and female friends to dismiss her experiences and presented that as an argument/rebuttal of her statement is illogical. Your incredibly limited, anecdotal evidence in no way invalidates Shora’s accounts. Nor does your claim to have no first-hand knowledge of women who complain about sexual harassment in any way indicate that she is “tad-sensitive” or over-reacting. The only thing you proved is that women don’t talk to you about these things. So your rebuttal is both asinine and illogical.
“My sister doesn’t complain about being sexually harassed” is not a logical response to “Sexual harassment is a problem for me.”
Oh, c’mon. No references to Solanas or Daly? Seriously, there are a lot of first-hand accounts, interviews, etc. from women out in the work place, living in cities, etc. that pre-date Dworkin and Steinem. Women have had opinions about sexual harassment for a long time.
Yeah, sure. It’s all one big sitcom; scripted with a laugh track included. Your problem is that you’re viewing the issue through the lens of a guy who isn’t particularly successful with women. So you’re sitting there imagining a scenario in which some decent guy says “Hi, you look nice today” and some indoctrinated feminist snarling “Fuck off, oppressor!” back at him. This isn’t PCU.
You have no idea how quickly and how often, street harassment can turn into something ugly, do you?
When I was on the bus home in middle school, a boy reached over, groped my breasts, and told me “You’ve got some nice boobies.”
By this logic, rather than telling him to get his hands off me and reporting him to the bus driver, I should have reached over, fondled his crotch, and said “Thanks, you’ve got a nice dick.”
Somehow I can’t imagine that would have gone over well.
Oh, noes, chuckeedee used the word “aforementioned”! Whatever will we do now?
*hides under the desk*
I never said my experiences were universal. I did not outright say but did imply that my experience’s matter because they happened.
Fair enough, never said otherwise. To put it another way, I believe that you felt offended/harassed/whatever. And yet when I offered a counter-example, I was basically told that my experiences didn’t matter, that essentially all women feel harassed and the only reason the women in my life never complained about it was because they were afraid of me/didn’t trust me. So whose experiences are relevant? Only mine, or only yours? Or both?
Hengist: Being offended by catcalls is not an overreaction if for no other reason than the purpose of the catcall is to offend.
I doubt it. For most guys it’s a way to bond and ‘show off’ to their friends, nothing more.
since what you are saying, basically, is that women have no dignity to begin with.
WTF?
So catcalling is about showing off without considering the feelings of the person you’ve just harassed? How is that any better or less offensive?
You know, Hengist, if you truly just don’t believe that women deal with issues like sexual harassment, slut-shaming, assault etc., you can just come right out and say so. There’s no need to hide behind the skirts of your sister and “female friends.”
I doubt it. For most guys it’s a way to bond and ‘show off’ to their friends, nothing more.
A way to bond and show off by being highly disrespectful to a woman? Nice. Not misogynistic at all.
I was basically told that my experiences didn’t matter,
Experiences in what, being groped and harassed? Tell you what, here is how I see it: your hypothetical experiences in things that you’ve never experienced in actual reality matter less than the real experiences of people in real life.
WTF?
What you claim that groping or catcalling a woman, reducing her to a piece of meat, as a way for men to “bond” and therefore not harassment, the implication is that the woman in question has no dignity that would make such conduct reprehensible.
By telling me that I’m probably just being oversensitive, you are, in fact, saying otherwise.
You dismissing my experiences with oppression after specifically asking for them is… not actually the same as people telling you that dismissing my experiences because those of your friends/sister is not cool? Obviously they’re both relevant, but what is NOT relevant is saying “well, my sister doesn’t feel that way, you must be oversensitive!” when I say “I’ve been street harassed and it sucks!”
Yeah, I sure am glad to know that the guy who screamed “pussy” at me last week while I was walking home was just bonding with his friend beside him. That makes me feel much better about knowing that there are men on my campus who identify and think of women only by their genitalia.
“When I was on the bus home in middle school, a boy reached over, groped my breasts, and told me “You’ve got some nice boobies.”
By this logic, rather than telling him to get his hands off me and reporting him to the bus driver, I should have reached over, fondled his crotch, and said “Thanks, you’ve got a nice dick.””
Remember that a girl touching a guy without his permission is considered ‘cute’ and ‘romantic’ while the reverse gets the guy labeled a creepy pervert. So it probably wouldn’t have led to anything, other than people assuming you were together and making poetry about the two of you sitting in a tree, engaging in something or other.