Stop your sobbing (or expect to get paid less, ladies)
Quit it with the waterworks, lady!
I’ll give Sofia, the antifeminist bloggress behind the blog Sofiastry, credit for one thing: unlike a lot of Men’s Rightsers, she doesn’t deny that there is a wage gap between men and women. She just thinks that it’s justified – that women should be paid less.
Why? Well, I admit I don’t quite understand her explanation, which has something to do with women getting worse grades in school, working less, and, well, whatever the hell she’s trying to say here:
women who are likely seen in executive and higher-earning positions are estrogenically flawed in their lack of sufficient desire to prioritize family life. Its the equivalent of a man who has no creative, intellectual or ambitious drive — all hallmarks of testosterone.
Oh, and because, like Barbie, women think that math class is tough:
can it not simply be reduced to the fact that the average man has more of of an aptitude for finance and numbers than the average woman?
No, I’m pretty sure it can’t.
In a followup post, Sofia raised a critical issue that she somehow had overlooked in her earlier analysis: women are a bunch of blubbering crybabies.
I couldn’t count on one hand the number of times a female co-worker cried on the job (myself included), but I couldn’t name a single male (homosexuals excluded & even then…). Women are more emotional, more likely to take days off for such reasons (or no reason) and quantifiably put in less hours on the job. Depending on the field, I’d also wager that women are less likely to revolutionize an industry or make the same amount of exceptional contributions men do.
Seriously, gal. Don’t be a bunch of Lady-Boehners. Stop all of your sobbing! (Oh, oh oh.)
Posted on September 14, 2011, in antifeminism, antifeminst women, misogyny, MRA, reactionary bullshit. Bookmark the permalink. 421 Comments.
you should take a look at the stats cited in the finance sector as publicized by the authors of freakonomics (levitt and dubner):
Women have slightly lower GPAs than men and, perhaps more important, they take fewer finance courses. All else being equal, there is a strong correlation between a finance background and career earnings.
Over the first fifteen years of their careers, women work fewer hours than men, 52 per week versus 58. Over fifteen years, that six-hour difference adds up to six months’ less experience.
Women take more career interruptions than men. After ten years in the workforce, only 10 percent of male MBAs went for six months or more without working, compared with 40 percent of female MBAs.
here’s another supporting article:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12760790/ns/business-forbes_com/t/are-women-earning-more-men/#.TnDF4WMi-K4
…but many women are earning more than their male peers now anyway:
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html
…you’re being pretty mendacious with your quotes.
It’s absolutely true that women take more career interruptions.
This is not so we can eat bon-bons on the beach. It’s because we live in a society where the traditional role of a father is “bring home the paycheck” and the traditional role of a mother is “absolutely everything else.” You’re looking at maternity leaves, not whimsical little sabatticals. And the fact that women have to take more leave and are penalized more for it is a function of sexism, not of women being estrogenized sillyheads.
creative, intellectual or ambitious drive — all hallmarks of testosterone.
Wow, I guess I’m filled to the brim with testosterone? WTF?
It’s hard to be mendacious WITH QUOTES, my darling dear…unless something is egregiously out of context. And if you’re making the case that these quotes are egregiously out of context, your next move should probably not be to double down on the quoted on the material by linking to material you think SUPPORTS your quotes.
mat leave is technically compensated for in most professional fields. work is work, and dependent on output/profit. if a group of people are quantitatively, absolutely working less hours (and producing less), you suspect they would also be paid less. i’m sure (and this is supported) individual women who invest the effort, are compensated justly. there’s no discriminatory forces here.
mendacious in the sense that he’s omitting the stats.
I couldn’t count on one hand the number of times a female co-worker has had to take time off for child-care purposes, but I can only count a single male who has done the same. (Actually, after the birth of their second child, he opted to stay at home with the kids because his wife’s job was much more lucrative than his).
Almost everyone who works at my company has children, and 99% of the time it’s the mother who ends up taking time off work to deal with doctor’s appointments, to stay home with a sick child, or to stay home because they don’t have childcare. One of my co-workers has to take off two weeks every summer (one at the beginning and one at the end) because the daycare and school schedules do not mesh well so her kids are without care for that time. She’s married, but her husband NEVER stays home for these periods of time.
A huge reason that women’s careers get stalled is because they have children and they still perform the lion’s share of child-rearing.
Sofia, what does crying have to do with promotion? Or anything?
And what does the fact that women are less likely to be stupid with their health (which is generally the reason they take time off when controlling for children and so forth) have to do with their being “emotional?”
Also, there are other issues at play for women’s compensation then their being less likely to be stupid about their health.
Also, your saying that women prioritizing family life wrong is your way of saying “either women can have kids or not but if they do, they deserve lower pay.” Which is interesting because that is the same reason given for giving the male a raise and not giving the female the raise when both are equally competent at the job. So basically you are looking to reinforce the idea that women should be staying home when they have babies.
women DO perform most of the child-rearing not included in mat leave, but shouldn’t she be addressing this issue with her partner? not her employer?
women who are likely seen in executive and higher-earning positions are estrogenically flawed in their lack of sufficient desire to prioritize family life.
could you point to the research you believe supports this pseudo-scientific horseshit, because right now the top google result for ‘estrogenically flawed’ is http://manboobz.com/2011/09/14/stop-your-sobbing-or-expect-to-get-paid-less-ladies/
But that’s their CHOICE…and if they pay a penalty for that, well, them’s the breaks…I guess…?
So because some women will work less due to maternity leave, it’s fine that the majority of women are paid less for the same work? What about women who don’t want children? How is it not discriminatory to pay them less on the chance that they might get pregnant and take time off work?
Would doing so make her estrogenically-flawed?
‘estrogenically flawed’ was facetious but jezebel published an interesting article on the “unhappiest” person in the world who’s incidentally a professional, childless woman: http://jezebel.com/5838505/the-unhappiest-person-ever-is-a-female-lawyer
So because some women will work less due to maternity leave, it’s fine that the majority of women are paid less for the same work? What about women who don’t want children? How is it not discriminatory to pay them less on the chance that they might get pregnant and take time off work?
it’s not quantitatively the same amount of work. and of course i don’t think women should be paid less for the sake of it, but it’s merit based.
One childfree female professional is unhappy, therefore all female professionals need to get knocked up and get back in the kitchen. Of course. It makes perfect sense.
one? try a demographic.
…and it’s not such a simple dichotomy.
It was facetious? Why? Was it a joke? Was the part about creative and intellectual pursuits facetious too? Because if it wasn’t, then you have a rather odd comparison there.
I’m estrogenically flawed! Could you be more ignorant with your generalizations? Newsflash: not all of us women want to reproduce.
huh? i’m not saying all women should reproduce. i’m talking about the wage gap. but i do think women at the top of professional fields are less traditionally feminine.
facetious in the sense that i don’t think they’re biologically NOT women.
It is not supported
When we account for differences between male and female work
patterns as well as other key factors, women earned, on average,
80 percent of what men earned in 2000. That is the GAO’s report on it.
Is it possible that childless professional women are unhappier because of the sexism they encounter, and not just because they’re tormenting themselves by denying their true June Cleaver nature?
And the fact that women have to take more leave and are penalized more for it is a function of sexism
I have to confess I don’t understand this, and it does come up a lot in wage gap discussions. If you take time off, you won’t be paid for it. Are you saying that women should get more paid leave, aka get paid as much as men for working less?
poster,
it is supported when you isolate things like hours worked for example.
And what about people paid on salary, not by hours?
Over the first fifteen years of their careers, women work fewer hours than men, 52 per week versus 58.
Sounds to me like women are BETTER and more efficient at their jobs than men.
Or that the men are generally stupider, volunteering an extra 6 uncompensated hours per week. OF COURSE employers prefer the men.
holly,
sure, it can be interpreted that way. i think people are interpreting what i’m saying to mean women belong in the kitchen. meanwhile, i’m pursuing a degree in the hopes of landing a career. like i said, it’s not that simple. i think often women feel they have to prioritize one over the other to be successful (which is true when you’re talking of relative status to men). so, it turns out, a v. unhappy demographic are professional women who might be sacrificing families that they might actually want to have.
laura,
no, i mean, when you invest more hours into a job (even if it’s salaried), you’re probably going to have higher output and produce more.
TMI time!
I am, in fact, estrogenically flawed. Literally. I have polycystic ovaries and I do, literally, have more testosterone than a typical female. I don’t menstruate, I have all my fat on my belly and almost none on my breasts or hips, and I don’t want to get too into hair issues but yeah there are some.
Does this make me a bad or broken person? Does this mean that my career choices are invalid, or are necessarily caused by my hormones? Does this mean that my family choices (not particularly wanting one) are invalid?
What if someone is estrogenically flawed–what moral judgements does that give you the right to make?
no, of course i don’t think it makes you a bad person. but in the contest of my phrase “estrogenically flawed” i do believe v. successful women in professional fields are generally less feminine. do i personally care? no. i myself am probably less feminine by virtue of simply being educated and vocal.
i do believe v. successful women in professional fields are generally less feminine. do i personally care? no. i myself am probably less feminine by virtue of simply being educated and vocal.
depends on how you define feminine, I guess.
But if you profess to not care, why do you keep saying it?
Hengist – I have to confess I don’t understand this, and it does come up a lot in wage gap discussions. If you take time off, you won’t be paid for it. Are you saying that women should get more paid leave, aka get paid as much as men for working less?
Ideally, I’d like to see men and women take the same amount of leave and make it a moot point.
Maternity leave is already paid; my concern is that women are passed over for hiring, raises, or promotion because they take that leave (or even because their employer thinks they’re likely to take it). While I’d like there to be safeguards against this, I realize that it’s not quite logical to treat someone who wasn’t present as if they were, so I think the only real long-term solutions are paternity leave, fathers with the ability and social approval to take off work for a sick kid while the mom works, and widely available cheap childcare and after-school programs.
The Lady-Boehners is now going to be the name of my band once I learn to play a musical instrument (if I can find the time between crying and having babies).
i’m saying it because i think being feminine is one factor in making less. not only in prioritizing family/personal time, but also in being less vocal. i don’t think women face as much discrimination as much as people say we do.
I’m amazed that I have to actually explain this, but here we go. Women perform the lion’s share of child-rearing because that is the cultural norm. There is a solution to this issue, and that is to shift cultural expectations regarding child-rearing so that men are expected to perform the same amount of work that women are. (And to head off any more inane objections by Sofia, obviously I’m referring to all of the work that goes into it after the child is born)
Trying to tie wage discrepancies to crying at work is just stupid.
Interesting…
From sofia’s linked Forbes article (an editorial, so it’s soft on numbers)
Her citations don’t support her thesis.
Hopefuly she won’t starti bawling her eyes out when she reads this…
right, like i said, it’s an issue that should be discussed with your partner if you feel strongly about it. we differ about trying to contrivedly popularize those norms.
it’s not stupid. women crying more at work is indicative of a larger pattern of women bringing more of the personal into work, and taking time off of work for the same reasons.
cynickal,
huh? that absolutely supports what i’m saying. men have more liberty to earn less without children, i don’t know if they do. it’s a speculative statement.
Really? I mean, you consider the definition of feminie to be so narrow that you truly consider yourself to be less feminine by virtue of your education and outspokenness? Truly?
If you really believe that, what do you think about being “less feminine” as a result of being educated and “vocal”? Do you feel any particular way about it?
Typo: “…the definition of feminine…”
Holly – ok, that makes sense and I agree.
Sofia – “i’m saying it because i think being feminine is one factor in making less. not only in prioritizing family/personal time, but also in being less vocal.” Yeah, I remember reading somewhere that one reason for women earning less is they’re not as aggressive in chasing raises and promotions. Not sure how you’d legislate against that, though.
nobinayama,
yes, i do think i’m relatively less feminine than a lot of girls. i don’t feel any particular way about it. it’s not something i can really control. i think i probably lie averagely on the spectrum. it’s like asking someone how they feel about having average IQ. probably neutral.
I’m pretty sure women cry more outside of work too. Women cry more than men. Know why? Because women are allowed to cry more. It has nothing to do with “bringing the personal,” or else all those women crying outside of work are bringing their personal lives…into…their…personal lives?
Besides, how do you know women who cry at work aren’t crying because of work? I feel so frustrated at work that I want to cry from time to time. Occasionally, it even spills over into actual crying. Fortunately, my workplace has this amazing room, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen one, where I can go for a few minutes of privacy, and it even has running water so I can wash my face and put myself back together afterward! Amazing! A spot of tears doesn’t have to negatively impacy my workday at all!
Hours simply does not equal productivity. It just doesn’t. I’ve known many a man who comes to work late, takes more than his hour for lunch, and then moans and whines about how late he’s going to have to stay that night and many a woman who comes in on time, eats lunch at her desk, and hurries to get everything that needs to be done that day actually done that day. Women are more likely to try to leave on time so they can get home for their second shift? Well that sounds more likely to me than “Men are more productive because they spend more time in the office.”
*impact
Stupid failure to proofread. I was just being such an energetic go-getter at making that post.
“it’s not stupid. women crying more at work is indicative of a larger pattern of women bringing more of the personal into work, and taking time off of work for the same reasons.”
I don’t know, I think both men and women deal with emotional issues on an equal basis, men are just socially conditioned not to show it outwardly. They keep it all in and channel it into becoming workaholics and getting ulcers.
it’s not stupid. women crying more at work is indicative of a larger pattern of women bringing more of the personal into work,
Obviously, you haven’t spent much time in the workplace if you think men bring less of their personal lives into work.
If anything, I would argue that men bring MORE of their personal lives into work. I had a boss once who spent 20% of his work week trying to juggle his wife and his mistress. WHILE ignoring his kids.
The thing is, sofia, you don’t seem to feel neutral. You’re blogging about this issue; you’ve shown up in the threads to defend your post. You used the word “mendacious.” Your avatar is conspicuously, visually feminine.
You seem fairly invested in creating, what I believe, is a false dichotomy between the idea of feminine and the concepts of “driven” and/or educated and vocal. You declare women who are successful in professional careers (though you don’t indicate what type of professional careers) to be less feminine.
I consider myself to be well educated, quite driven, and absurdly outspoken. I just don’t think these qualities render me any more or less feminine as they have nothing to do with femininity.
But then, of course, we are likely working from two very different ideas of what femininity is.
Perhaps you can provide some clarification?
What about men yelling and/or screaming at work?
“Men are more productive because they spend more time in the office.”
Men spend more time in the office screwing around. Talking football, watching E-Trade, so on. I think amandajane has a point, in that women have to get out on time, to pick up kids, feed them, get dinner, and to do so they have to plow through the work in the standard workday.
Again, like I said, it seems to me that women are more efficient than men.
“Over the first fifteen years of their careers, women work fewer hours than men, 52 per week versus 58.
Sounds to me like women are BETTER and more efficient at their jobs than men.
Or that the men are generally stupider, volunteering an extra 6 uncompensated hours per week. OF COURSE employers prefer the men.
”
wth? dude, that’s just dumb. So now working more hours equals being stupider and less efficient? I guess it has nothing to do with some people having more ambition/wanting to earn a little more cash? My father worked overtime to support us when we were kids, he’d often leave for work at 7 AM and come home in the evening. I guess he was just a moron, huh? Jackass.
I always thought the wage gap was off. I mean if I was a profit seeking company and I could systematically pay women 25% less than men for the same work…I would hire only women and cut my labor costs by 25% by just excluding men.
So I find it interesting when people say women are paid X cents to the dollar…then immediately start talking about how greedy a company is. I mean seriously, if there actually was the “old boys network” what would they care more about? Money or loyalty to other men? Money pretty much tops everything.
So I think there is something else at play here besides straight up discrimination.
Men spend more time in the office screwing around. Talking football, watching E-Trade, so on.
You got any stats on this, or are you just pulling misandric garbage out of your ass?
What about men yelling and/or screaming at work?
THIS. My wife has worked in a male dominated field, and she has always said that ‘females are more emotional at work” is a complete myth, but that men’s emotional outlets are culturally oriented toward violent outbursts, and that she observed FAR MORE often that men resort to this than women do to crying.
Again, that boss I had used to throw things at his employees when he got angry, memorably once an X-acto knife.
I think we mostly would have preferred that he go in the rest room and have a good cry.
My friend and co-worker who has to take off several weeks a year just to stay at home with the kids due to childcare/school conflictions always tells me what a relief it is to be back at work. The sad thing is, her husband’s job is much more conducive to working from home — he deals with website maintenance. And yet, in the six years I’ve known them he never opts to stay at home with the kids. She has to take off work (we can’t work from home in my company).
If anyone hasn’t heard of Hochschild’s book The Second Shift (and its followup, The Time Bind), I definitely recommend them both.
It’s true that very little of the wage gap is because of wage discrimination. I don’t know why people continually use this as the GOT YOU NOW, FEMINISTS point, because just because it’s not caused by wage discrimination doesn’t mean it’s not caused by sexism.
Also, Sofia is Brandoning. “Social pressure isn’t a thing! Just make your own choices! You don’t have to give in to it!”
wth? dude, that’s just dumb. So now working more hours equals being stupider and less efficient? I guess it has nothing to do with some people having more ambition/wanting to earn a little more cash? My father worked overtime to support us when we were kids, he’d often leave for work at 7 AM and come home in the evening. I guess he was just a moron, huh? Jackass.
Bite me. I was referring to salaried employees who just take it for granted that they will stay later.
If you don’t take that for granted, you have to be more efficient to get the same amount of work done in a shorter amount of time. And if you devote that extra time to the employer without compensation, you are being taken advantage of.
Overtime, which is compensated, is different. As is working extra time to start a business or as a partner.
Someone else said the same thing upthread, admittedly more artfully than I did. Still no need to be pissy, I wasn’t insulting your dad.
Brandon – I always thought the wage gap was off. I mean if I was a profit seeking company and I could systematically pay women 25% less than men for the same work…I would hire only women and cut my labor costs by 25% by just excluding men.
Why pay anyone more than minimum wage?
Generally, because you feel that the position you’re hiring for requires experience and skill, and you will have to pay more to get people who are qualified.
It’s not irrational for a sexist employer to hire men at higher wages if they feel they’re getting more “value” for their money.
I’m uncomfortable with the “women actually work HARDER and are BETTER at it” rhetoric some people are using here. I don’t think that’s true (at least in the realm of paid work), and I don’t think it’s a good idea to say “there really is a gender that’s better than the other one, you’re just wrong about which one it is.”
“i don’t think women face as much discrimination as much as people say we do.”
How old are you and how long have you been in a professional work environment? You come off very naive.
Oh, here we go. Because Brandon doesn’t believe it’s discrimination, we’re going to be treated to dozens of incoherent posts about why paying women less is A-Okay, complete with his utterly ignoring his previous posts and changing the wording to weasel out of owning his opinions. Maybe he’ll even ask “Ashley” about it and then we can hear that she has no problem with sexism in the workplace, so therefore it doesn’t exist.
“yes, i do think i’m relatively less feminine than a lot of girls. i don’t feel any particular way about it. it’s not something i can really control. i think i probably lie averagely on the spectrum. it’s like asking someone how they feel about having average IQ. probably neutral.”
Sofia, you’re talking like this is the Kinsey scale–in other words, that it actually exists. What’s this “Femininity Scale” like? Does it have “staying home and having babies” on one end and “being educated and actually speaking up for yourself” on the other? Because that’s gonna leave a hell of a lot of educated stay-at-home moms out in the cold.
Molly, on behalf of one of those moms, thank you.
After which we will, no doubt, here all about Ashley actually enjoys being paid less for the job her colleagues do. It probably gets her hot.
“Again, that boss I had used to throw things at his employees when he got angry, memorably once an X-acto knife.”
Frak, Zombie, that sounds terrible. Was there anyone you could report him to (like HR)? o.O
Molly, I would also like to know what sofia’s scale of femininity is/entails.
Brandon wrote, “I always thought the wage gap was off. I mean if I was a profit seeking company and I could systematically pay women 25% less than men for the same work…I would hire only women and cut my labor costs by 25% by just excluding men.”
Then he concludes with,
“So I think there is something else at play here besides straight up discrimination.”
Um, Brandon? This is kind of the DEFINITION of discrimination. Do you ever read what the fuck you write, you bigot?
You ignorant twit. No, actually, because working less produces a total income gap. The wage gap refers to equal hours, same work, different pay. You’re confusing two different gaps. The total income gap has FAR more to do with the fact that there are few women who work jobs at the top of the economy; most of the wealth in the USA is controlled by the mega wealthy, and women don’t really get the jobs that make new ones. So no, the total income gap between the genders is only explained in tiny teeny parts by maternity leave. The overwhelming majority of it is that they aren’t CEOs, owners, etc.
But the wage gap is when peons who work the same job, in the same hours are paid different amounts by gender. And it’s still extant, and it’s not even what you claim it is, and it can’t be justified by what you claim it is.
Misandry requires actually perpetuating something that disadvantages men. There are vanishingly few things that MRAs claim are misandristic, that actually are, because Men are the dominant gender group in the USA.