The recent ugliness on Reddit
From time to time, something will happen on the Internet or in real life that I know I should write about for Man Boobz, but it’s so infuriating or depressing that I can’t bring myself to write about it. The recent bullshit on Reddit involving a young woman whose story of a sexual assault was met with angry disbelief until she provided video proof that her injuries were real is a perfect case in point.
Briefly, what happened is this:
A young woman posted about a sexual assault she’d endured a day or so earlier – a man had tried to rape her, pushing her to the ground and scraping her face on the pavement. In a separate topic she posted a picture of her injuries, most notably a giant scrape on her cheek. You can see it at right; click on the picture to see it full size.
Then another Redditor noticed that some time back, the same woman had posted a picture of herself in zombie makeup. This, he said, made him skeptical that her injuries were real — it was probably just a good makeup job.
That was all it took to send Reddit into a full internet lynch mob frenzy: obviously this woman was a liar and an attention whore and, even worse, possibly a feminist anti-rape activist! Redditors suddenly became both medical and makeup experts, and declared that the giant scrape on her face was obviously phony. (Not to me; I tried arguing with several of them to no avail.) It got ugly, very ugly, very quickly.
The woman at the heart of the storm asked if she needed to post an actual video of her cleaning the wound on her face to show that it was real; a redditor demanded that she do just that.
So she did. (Here it is.) Long story short: the scrape is real. The woman also posted a picture of the business card given to her by the police detective she’s spoken to when reporting the incident. It’s now pretty clear that there is no reason to doubt that her story is true. Even the Redditor who originally challenged her story realized that she was almost certainly telling the truth.
Here’s her post offering proof to back up her story.
At this point the lynch mob lost its steam; some people even apologized to her.
But the evidence of the ugliness remains in a host of different threads and different subforums on Reddit. I honestly don’t have the energy or the patience to sift through all of the ugliness; luckily, Jezebel has given a decent account of the whole spectacle; you can go there to get some more of the details.
You might also want to look in to the main thread where most of the ugliness occurred — though at this point many of the vile accusatory comments that got upvoted when everyone seemed to assume she was lying have been retroactively voted down. (The screenshot I posted above gives a better idea of what it looked like at the time; here’s another screenshot with some of the choicer comments.)
Naturally, Men’s Rightsers contributed to the ugliness – though most of the worst comments appeared outside of the Men’s Rights subreddit, and a surprising number of r/mr regulars refused to jump on the original “she’s a liar” bandwagon.
While many Men’s Rightsters are now apologetic, others still think she may be lying.
Here’s a good discussion of the whole thing in ShitRedditSays, and a followup.
Posted on September 12, 2011, in bullying, douchebaggery, drama, evil women, false accusations, misogyny, MRA, rape, reddit. Bookmark the permalink. 463 Comments.
GL Piggy, the assholes at the Reddit jumped to conclusions and assumed the woman was lying, just because they want to believe that most rape accusations are false. You mentioned “too many false accusations and overblown rhetoric coming from feminists”. Have you ever stopped to wonder why so many commenters falsely accused her of lying? Their only evidence to call her a liar was that she did zombie makeup once. Why do so many MRA’s rush to decide all alleged rapists are innocent, and all accusers are liars?
I am sorry about the attack you went through. It is terrible that the cops brushed off the assault, and that your girlfriend blamed you for that happening. It sounds a lot like how many people treat rape victims, too. The girl from the OP was not given an outpouring of sympathy and support. She was branded a liar and blamed for what happened. It’s sad that so much violence is dismissed by other people that can’t be bothered to care about the suffering of others.
hellkell says:
“Those are not the internet’s rules, those are the rules of sad little boys who may never see a tit otherwise.”
A little originality would be nice.
Communication and interaction on the internet would naturally be a little bit different than real-world interaction. “Tits or GTFO” is an admittedly crude way of saying “I don’t know you from Adam (or Eve) so whatever you’re saying carries very little weight. Show me or don’t even bring it up because it is about as meaningful as reading the same thing happening to a character in a novel.”
I hardly need to tell anyone that IRL, someone telling about their sexual assault or rape would be done where face-to-face interaction allows for the listener to gauge body language and the overall level of truth-telling. We do this in every sort of interaction whether we realize it or not. But we obviously don’t have that luxury when we’re talking about the internet.
So my point lies in the differences between online discourse and real-world discourse. It seems that real-world outrage carries over into the internet where it may not be properly applied.
So, G.L. Piggy, are you implying that because people were assholes to you when you got hurt, it’s okay that people are assholes to this woman when she’s hurt?
i should also point out that this type of “Tits or GTFO” mentality occurs in all parts of the internet. if a guy at a PUA blog says that he bagged a 10 or if he boasts about something of consequence, he’ll be met with that rebuttal. “Prove it or you’re lying”. And they don’t relent until you do prove it.
“I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again (trigger warning), until more men are actually SEXUALLY assualted (as opposed to “just” assualted), there is always going to be this cognitive dissonance.”
Uh, what? A lot of men are sexually assaulted. I really don’t think that has anything to do with the kind of just world fallacy that’s going on here. Are you saying that people who haven’t been sexually assaulted are automatically unsympathetic to victims? Because there’s a lot of men and women out there who haven’t been, and yet still manage to be decent human beings who wouldn’t dream of saying any of the shit that Piggy or DKM here is saying.
Amnesia,
No, I’m not implying or saying that. My only point with that is that nobody really cares when shitty things happen to men. Separate point; I’ll focus on this incident from here.
“Are you saying that people who haven’t been sexually assaulted are automatically unsympathetic to victims? ”
I’m saying that until men like this from the Manosphere start getting sexually assaulted, there’s going to be this coginitive dissonance with them.
Hmm. Earlier this year, some 18 men were arrested in Texas for the repeated gang rape of an 11-year-old girl. Far from getting any sympathy in the media, she was described as a child who wore eye-liner (the implication being, of course, that if she applied make-up, she was asking to be repeatedly raped by 18 people, and did I mention she was eleven?) and hung out with teenage boys at the playground (the implication being that an eleven year-old child who goes to a playground and — gasp!! — talks to boys is obviously a whore), and her mother as ambitious and unfriendly, and her family life as complicated (the implication being, again, that her socio-economic background made her a slut, and by the way, she was eleven). There was plenty of sympathy expressed for the accused, however, and for how the arrests created “fear” among the boys and young men in that community (not being able to rape an 11-year-old at will? Feminist oppression!!). Concern was expressed that the horrible accusation is something that the accused “boys” — some of whom had criminal records, including a history of rape and homicide — would have to live with for the rest of their lives (the implication being that the rape charge is false anyway). Source
Sympathy for rape victims? From us, maybe. Not from the general public.
GL Piggy, there is a difference between the phrase “Prove it or you’re lying” and “Tits or GFTO”. The second is more commonly used against women, to make them feel unwelcome. The phrase pretty much says that in a particular Internet space, women are only welcome if they offer something sexual. It is a gendered insult. I don’t care if 90% of the Internet has that rule. It’s wrong no matter what. “Prove it or you’re lying” can be an asshole thing to say if someone should be given the benefit of the doubt, but it can be used against either men or women so it’s not a gendered insult.
The assholes at Reddit were not showing reasonable skepticism to a unlikely claim in the OP. The girl made a legitimate claim, and they decided to call her a liar without any reason at all. If they decided to adopt a tits or GTFO rule in their space, then I will call them assholes. It’s very sad that the poor girl got verbally attacked by them.
I don’t know about that, I’m pretty sure they’d just find some way to blame it on feminism/women and continue on their merry, hateful, cognitively dissonant way.
Piggy: And now that I’ve dug through the many links to this incident, I’ve come across the woman’s recounting of the story.
Yeah, there doesn’t seem to be any good reason to doubt her.
Which means you are the asshole. You could have done that “work” before you made the passive aggressive accusation of her saying she was misrepresenting her assault.
Then, to ice the cake, you make apologies for all the other assholes; with the tired old canard of, “all too many false accusations”.
You justify a virtual lynch mob, and literal character destruction because of the poltical motivation you have to promote the idea of false rape being a significant problem; in either the justice system, or individual men’s personal lives.
So me calling you an asshole, is me being polite, and generous.
@G.L.Piggy: “My only point with that is that nobody really cares when shitty things happen to men.”
Well, clearly misogynists care when shitty things happen to women, as this incident demonstrates. Personally, I would prefer they didn’t care.
“My only point with that is that nobody really cares when shitty things happen to men.”
Or women, it would seem. It’s a cruel and uncaring world we live in.
Amused,
I wrote extensively on the Cleveland 19 case.
The writer of that NYT article reported what was told to him in the community. She was described as wearing make-up because that’s what the idiots who were trying to defend those 19 young men were telling the reporter. That entire community was ready to excuse the culprits. Quanell X, a member of Nation of Islam, went to Cleveland, Texas to defend those young men. In a town hall meeting he even put her Facebook pictures up for everyone to look at. But where was the media then? That entire story was a farce to protect yet another group of black males who’d been accused of rape. As a side note, Amanda Marcotte joined the fray by comparing Cleveland, Texas – with its gang rape and its high per capita rape rate – to her small west Texas town of Alpine where rapes rarely occur (or, at least, are reported).
That entire story was a snow job. If the NYT guy hedged in any direction it was to protect the group of black youth from scrutiny.
Piggy wrote, “i should also point out that this type of “Tits or GTFO” mentality occurs in all parts of the internet. if a guy at a PUA blog says that he bagged a 10 or if he boasts about something of consequence, he’ll be met with that rebuttal. “Prove it or you’re lying”. And they don’t relent until you do prove it.”
So they, what? Post pictures of themselves with their cocks inside the girl? Do their partners know they’re doing this without their permission?
Societal Contract, what the eff is with you?
Perenium:
do you have anything to say to me beside calling me an asshole? because i’m not reading whatever else you’re writing. my eyes key in on your lame, repetitive attempts to shame me and then i look elsewhere. so save your energy.
Molly Ren:
If they don’t know you from Adam or think that your post is either outlandish or exhibits gratuitous displays of heroism, coolness, or what have you, they just don’t believe you. if you’re an established commenter and others can sense that you’re not a bullshitter, then your anecdotes and experiences are accepted.
i wonder if anyone else would agree that the methods of weighing evidence would be quite different in a virtual arena compared to a real-life one. If you can accept that then it isn’t crazy to accept the argument that people on the internet are going to a be a little more callous or unrelenting in asking another person to prove their case. The woman in this case was under no obligation to prove herself, but she put her story on the internet in a public forum. If she cares about proving her case, then the burden is on her. And that burden will be higher than IRL.
That being said, from a subjective interpretation, the evidence she provided seems to support her claim. If anyone is still strongly skeptical, that is their right, but they may have other motives to not believe her.
“A little originality would be nice.”
Yeah, it would be, but I’m not getting paid for creativity and originality here, so it can take a pass. You? Can fuck right off.
“The assholes at Reddit were not showing reasonable skepticism to a unlikely claim in the OP. The girl made a legitimate claim, and they decided to call her a liar without any reason at all.” – from what I understand, it’s the fact that she had previously had zombie makeup on thus the implication that the wound was also fake, and the fact that shortly before this, somebody else had lied about having cancer. Doesn’t excuse their hateful comments, but I wouldn’t say they had no reason at all.
“If they don’t know you from Adam or think that your post is either outlandish or exhibits gratuitous displays of heroism, coolness, or what have you, they just don’t believe you.”
So what did you find “heroic”, “cool”, or “outlandish” about her story, Piggy?
I’m still wondering what level of proof these guys would require from a PUA if he’d been held to the same standards as this girl. Nekkid pics? A live video? Bloodstained sheets? Y’all know trading that shit around can get you shut down, right?
@G.L.Piggy: “The writer of that NYT article reported what was told to him in the community. ”
Well, isn’t it curious how none of the people in the community had anything sympathetic to say about the victim, but were plenty sympathetic to the perpetrators? Sure seems to go against your claim that rape victims get universal sympathy. Quite the opposite seems to be the case.
Piggy:
I’m sorry, I don’t believe you were assaulted. Do you have photos to prove it?
From G. L. Piggy:
> That entire story was a farce to protect yet another group of black males who’d been accused of rape.
Presented without comment.
Actually, I have no doubt you were assaulted, I just value consistency.
Hide and Seek:
Yeah, I have proof on my blog, actually. Look for it if you like. I have no vested interest in proving my case though. This woman did. Also, regular assault isn’t political, thus, people don’t lie about it and statistics of its occurence aren’t reported on in the media and repeated as gospel and as evidence that our society is fundamentally flawed.
Actually, G.L.Piggy, by your logic, you DO have a vested political interest in your case. You are part of a movement that claims that men are constantly violently assaulted left and right, and no one ever does anything about it. So — again, by the standard you yourself set up — when you claim that you were violently assaulted and no one did anything about it, it seems rather fortuitous.
“Well, isn’t it curious how none of the people in the community had anything sympathetic to say about the victim, but were plenty sympathetic to the perpetrators? Sure seems to go against your claim that rape victims get universal sympathy. Quite the opposite seems to be the case.”
Yes. The blogger at WHATABOUTOURDAUGHTERS says this is very common in her ethnic community. That NAACP, NOI (Nation of Islam) and other Black male leaders NEVER come out in support of Black female victims when they are victimized by other Black men, but rather come to the aid of the Black male perpetrators. The Dunbar Village Horror is another example she uses, along with, oh about 100 others over at her blog.
*
Piggy wrote, “i should also point out that this type of “Tits or GTFO” mentality occurs in all parts of the internet. if a guy at a PUA blog says that he bagged a 10 or if he boasts about something of consequence, he’ll be met with that rebuttal. “Prove it or you’re lying”. And they don’t relent until you do prove it.”
Molly, “So they, what? Post pictures of themselves with their cocks inside the girl? Do their partners know they’re doing this without their permission?”
I smell some tasty court cases. Bring these mofos down by any means possible.
Piggy refers to it as being “lip raped”.
SC, shut up.
“people don’t lie about it” Yeah, go ask anyone who works in the criminal law field about that one. Even your non-intimate partner assaults, classic barfight assaults, often have wildly different versious of events coming from the defense and prosecution. Including the infamous, “I don’t know who bit his ear off, but it wasn’t me” case that one of my law professors was involved in. Also, it would be much better for society if non-sexual assault and murder rates were reported more statistically and less as a racialized case by case stigmatizing factor, because it would be helpful for people to be aware that this crimes have been experiencing significant and continuous decreases in rates over the past few decades and that the “criminals” fueling the US prison industrial complex are not by and large violent offenders, but rather drug and immigration law violaters.
Nope…not used.
Even when reported, ignored
It sounds like the political institutions which were supposed to help you after your assault failed miserably, Piggy. That failure’s not any different than when a woman files a report for rape and she is not taken seriously. In fact, the two things feed each other, because it creates an environment where people don’t take other people’s right to not be hit in the face with bottles, or sexually assaulted, or whatever, seriously.
“SC, shut up.”
Nope.
http://www.whataboutourdaughters.com/
SC, you’re writing stuff like “In a just world these Reddit assholes wouldn’t be allowed to live”. Let’s keep the death wishes down to a dull roar, shall we?
Piggy: Yeah, I have proof on my blog, actually. Look for it if you like. I have no vested interest in proving my case though. This woman did. Also, regular assault isn’t political,
What was her “vested interest”. Why do you assume any rape description is “political”.
Why should we think your automatic acceptance of anyone saying, “I don’t believe her” isn’t political?
“Tits or GTFO” means “show your breasts or don’t participate in this forum” or more accurately “we don’t treat women as human unless they objectify themselves”. “Pics or it didn’t happen” means “I don’t know you from Adam (or Eve) so whatever you’re saying carries very little weight. Show me or don’t even bring it up because it is about as meaningful as reading the same thing happening to a character in a novel.”
Haec Dixit Spatio Papa
Depends, can you make a post without accusing women of lying?
Reading comprehension, motherfucker! Can you use it!?
Projection, it’s not just for movie theaters anymore.
Oops, looks like Piggy is back on the “All women are liars” default setting. I hope your mother knows you think she’s a lying slut.
I see you already post that to your mother’s facebook. Good to know.
Dick or GTFO. Um, err, on second thought….. no thanks.
*Vomits at the thought of old, shrivelled, MRA dick lost in a sea of grey hairs.
Piggy: do you have anything to say to me beside calling me an asshole? because i’m not reading whatever else you’re writing. my eyes key in on your lame, repetitive attempts to shame me
Do you have anything to offer but apologia for asshattery?
And really, is accusing me of “shaming language” the best you’ve got (or was the misspelling intentional? If so, the correct spelling of that anatomical region is perineum. If you aren’t sure, use a dictionary; there are many online), because I’m not trying to shame you. I don’t think you are capable of that level of decency, so that’s not what I was doing.
I was calling you a name. One I felt both descriptive of your behavior, and more gently than you deserved, Your Holy Highness.
Actually what they’ve heard is disproportionate focus on false rape accusations and overblown rhetoric from anti-feminists.
I didn’t see any Tits of GTFO clause on my ISP contract. In other words, assholes don’t have to be assholes. Don’t assholes get enough excuses and free rides as it is?
The phrase you’re looking for is “Pics or it didn’t happen.” But keep piling up the assholish behavior, we’re all really impressed down here.
“This isn’t a court of law; it is the internet. This woman chose to post on the internet so kind of has to abide by Internet – tits or GTFO – rules. She didn’t have to post there, after all.”
My new internet rule:
Money or GTFO.
In order to post a comment on any blog I’m also posting comments on, you have to send a financial donation to my paypal account or you don’t exist in real life.
On the grounds of one study, people said that women on college campuses had a 1 in 4 chance of being sexually assaulted, which tends to connote rape in english.
The actual statistics are 1/6. That you MRAs continue to bleat about how 1/4 was used when that was the only extant data shows your continuing dishonesty, your utter inability to adapt to what your opponents are actually saying. You heard that feminists said something once, and you are unable to move past that as a movement. Go fuck yourself. I’ll catch up to the rest later.
SC, I deleted two of your comments and I’m putting you on moderation. Suggesting that some people “shouldn’t be allowed to live” is way over the line.
GL Piggy, if you weren’t so committed to “if the answer is yes women suck and if the answer is no women suck” logic, wouldn’t your experience with your assault make you more sympathetic to people who were assaulted and then not taken seriously by the authorities?
I mean, that was terrible for you. Wouldn’t you want it to be not terrible in future, for both men and women?
Piggy… If I was going to try to shame you I’d point out that only a moron brings his College Game to a AAA park.
Someone who was the dab hand at argument, and the Men’s Rights positions you seem to think yourself would know that the “false rape accusations are so common” isn’t going to play well here. Since you’ve been here before you certainly ought to know that.
So it would have been the smart thing to take a more nuanced tack, said something on the order of rape claims are too quickly given absolute credence by vocal feminists, and when they aren’t substantiated the full-throated roar has already done damage to the careers of those who were accused with a less than airtight case, or one that was in fact faked.
But no, you had to just keep going with the same old stuff. Tired weak, like the fifth cup of tea made with the same bag, things that might play well with an audience pre-disposed to agree with your case (like the twerps at The Spearhead or the False Rape Society).
That’s just stupid. Playing at being offended is more stupid, because anyone with some semblance of education; or able to learn from past history, would expect to be called an asshole for saying what you said in a place which is unfriendly to misogyny. My 13 year-old sister has more sense than that.
Or I might have told you that your injuries didn’t amount to assault because the guy who threw the bottle probably wasn’t trying to hit you, and even if he was you ought to have known better than to go to that party, if the sort of crowd that showed up was the kind that attracts that kind of attention.
That, my dear, is how I’d engage in shaming language.
@Captain Bathrobe
[quote]DKM: what an ugly, sad little man he is. In D&D terms, he’d be something like a Kobold (and not the nice ones like Deekan)–evil, but ultimately more of an annoyance than anything else.[/quote]
Apt metaphor. An annoyance individually, but when you get a bunch of them together in one place they start to get dangerous.
Quote fail, but whatever, you know what I was trying to do.
Rabbit. the tools to make a blockquote here are angle brackets, and blockquote.
I.E. <blockquote> to begin one, and </blockquote> to close it.
They are finicky, and sometimes refuse to stop, leading to painful nesting problems, but that’s up to the HTML gods.
G.L. Piggy, you have girlfriend; If she was raped, would you accept that she was called a liar by everybody she wear makeup ?
piggy said
“But I’ll say that this doesn’t make those guys on Reddit assholes; they’ve heard all too many false accusations and overblown rhetoric coming from feminists.”
Hearsay. I have yet to receive any evidence for talk of the millions and billions of poor men locked away due to false rape accusations. There may be a small few, and they deserve justice. But hearsay isn’t the truth, and you can’t justify the opinion you seem to have that all women are apathetic liars just because your girlfriend, or ex-girlfriend was a douchebag to you when you got the shit kicked out of you.
It’s not the menfolk who are getting the short end of the stick in society. Real victims get my support, male or female. These poor men on reddit have no excuse.
Oh, that 1/6 is lifetime, btw. Not in college. If only it were ‘just’ college students.
Isn’t manboobz a hotpot for abuse denial? At least on Reddit the crowd was divided, here abuse denial is practiced almost uniformly.
Here http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm deny, deny deny!
Look! Men raped by women http://feck-blog.blogspot.com/2011/05/predictors-of-sexual-coercion-against.html get out the sweeping brush!
“What about teh menz” is an internet meme for a reason Catalogue. In fact that men suffer was picked up by one of the posters here and she actually created a blog to talk about men’s issues.
So stop thinking you are ooooh soooo clever and bright for bringing up something that we have addressed ad nauseum. Cuz you are not.
I don’t think I’m “so clever”, the dogmatic abuse denial here is well documented, I’m just stating the obvious.
So, produce the quotes.
Catalogue, here’s more
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/jul/17/the-rape-of-men
Its in the dna here
See it her http://linearthinker.wordpress.com/2010/10/26/weighing-in-on-the-domestic-violence-debate-a-response-to-david-manboobz-futrelle/
or go to the rape meme on the Mens rights marmoset blog … see Dark Humor on NSWATM posts about male rape victims, where they are being educated in the comments section by MRAs
Abuse denial is in the DNA here, and in the overwhelming majority of feminist sites.
Produce the quotes, on this site, of posters denying the sexual abuse of men.
Dang, Nobinayamu, you’re so mean. Askin’ people for references and shit. That’s just more feminist abuse, right thar!
Anyhow, I’m out of here before the mobbing and fallacious argumentation starts.
Enjoy your egg.
Well documented? Ok. Care to share with the class?
Or must we assume you are just talking out your ass, in furtherance of a political agenda?
Catalogue, I WROTE A FUCKING POST partially inspired by the rape meme on the MRA Marmoset. And I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about about NSWATM.
Poll: who here thinks men can’t be abused or raped?
Ozymandias, how do you go to Hampshire and also maintain 2 blogs?
Here’s what I said in that debate catalogue cited to “prove” that abuse denial is “in the DNA” of this site:
http://manboobz.blogspot.com/p/not-so-great-debate-on-domestic.html
*hands decidedly not raised at all*
No, we don’t have to prove his stupid, unsubstantiated point wrong. Anybody who thought that shit would be mocked for their idiocy, same as any MRA. Substantiate your claim that we deny abuse, or go away, Catalogue.
That said:
I admit I might be blind, but having gone over this paper I can’t find that data listed in there.
So, I’m just going over the links provided, and I’m a little confused by the table on the second link. The feckblog post doesn’t mention who did the study, or which universities the students were from. “35 sites around the world.” Which ones?The table lists the differences in percentages between men and women in different rape circumstances, but doesn’t say if they are the victims or the perpetrators.
Also:
-forced vaginal sex: 2.1% (men) 1.6%(women)
I know I’m missing something here, because generally men don’t get raped in the vagina.
Jenn93, I’m guessing that means that the men were forced to have vaginal sex with a woman? This happens, though deplorably it’s played for laughs in movies (Isla Fisher rapes VInce Vaughan in Wedding Crashers) and I doubt it’s ever prosecuted unless it’s also statutory rape.
Ugh, this thread is depressing me. I need to go knit a corgi and go to bed.
Piggy:
Does anyone else read that parenthetical as having an implied “unlike hers” at the end?
Piggy:
Indeed there is.
Men should get the same treatment. I suspect men lie about being attacked slightly more often than women lie about being raped, but not enough to make the correct response to the claims different.
So the double standard isn’t “men’s stories are treated correctly, women’s are privileged,” it’s “women’s stories are treated properly, men’s are illegitimately doubted.”
Well, in the real world, both are illegitimately doubted, but the point is that men’s stories should be believed.
Catalogue:
In other words, there are no specific incidents, you just know it happens.