MRA blog suggests a cooling-off period would make statutory rape ok
From Human Stupidity, an MRA blog rather obsessed with underage girls and the alleged evil of age of consent laws:
[I]f a 15 year old … can decide to have sex with a 16 year old … [h]ow come she cannot have sex with a 35 year old? Age discrimination by law?
Are you worried about manipulation of the tender 15 year old? I have a solution:
what about legalizing sex with underage adolescents, if they first undergo an hour of mandatory counselling and a 2 day cool off period? That should take care of this issue. This would guarantee safety for the 15 year old against being conned or manipulated. More safety that is offered to 21 year old tipsy Friday night party girls who may feel sorry for what they did yesterday
I think he might actually be serious here. Though it’s pretty clear he’d be happy with any excuse to make it legal for 35 year-old men to have sex with 15 year-old girls.
Posted on September 7, 2011, in idiocy, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, rape, rapey, statutory rape apologists. Bookmark the permalink. 522 Comments.
I said it before, it bears repeating: are 16 and 17 year old girls just too old? Really? How low does the age of consent need to be?
Because there’s no difference between sleeping with a 16 year old or sleeping with a 35 year old, apparently.
Oh god, the 15-year-old girls again. I can’t wait for the barrage of “what if it’s true love?” and “but they’re always so seductive” and “25 is a burned-out husk of a woman” and “it’s MISANDRY to impose any limits whatsoever on men’s behavior.”
In fact, while I’m predicting the entire thread up here, let’s also expect lots of:
-Refusal to agree to any age of consent, because you’d hate to rule out those foxy four-year-olds
-Stories about how in Ye Olden Tymes and in Europe Or Someplace, everyone married twelve-year-olds and it worked out just great
-Accusations that feminists just love it and never object when women commit statutory rape of boys
-Super creepy stories about how I went to the beach once and there was this thirteen-year-old girl there just totally showing it off, I mean you could tell she was just putting it out there, how can you say that a girl so lushly sexual that she wears a bathing suit to the beach doesn’t know exactly what she’s doing to the 50-year-old men looking at her
-Extra creepy justifications about how those 15-year-old boys don’t know what they’re doing, and girls would enjoy the sex so much more with an experienced man
-Objections to the word “creepy” as if it were a slur against all mankind, because part of the MRA thing where they’re a weird parody of a social justice movement is picking some words to consider slurs against them (never mind that “creepy” actually has a very specific meaning, and “ew, male” is not it)
-Random threadjacks about random conspiracy theories, because it’s not a Manboobz thread without those
I don’t think I need to read the rest of the thread now; pretty sure I got it covered.
I don’t think any of us need to read the thread now, Holly, you’ve predicted the thing pretty perfectly. Which is both impressive and depressing.
I think you’ve pretty much covered everything, Holly.
There’s sure to be a dismissal of the entire concept of power dynamics within a relationship. And that dismissal is sure to come from the same paste eating dimwit that constantly claims that women use the power of sexuality to keep men and boys in a near constant state of sexual arousal and frustration. So we can look forward to that big bowl of stupid. And, of course, Meller may still show up to tell us that there’s no mental or emotional difference between an adult woman and an 11 year old girl again.
Other than that, though, I think you’re good.
And yet we’re slandering some of these guys by calling them pedophiles. Riiight.
Also, Holly, don’t forget someone drawing a creepy-thin-and-not-justifiable-line between pedophilia and ephebephilia.
Also, I like(read: am disgusted by) how the teenagers are always “she”. They really don’t care about the teenage boys at all, until we start to mention how problematic this is. I mean, I suppose that could be because we women never want sex unless we can get $MONEY$ out of it, and 15 year old boys don’t have any of that.
Ignoring the fact that it’s an incredibly stupid idea, just who is going to fund these counselling sessions? Will it require special training, or will the middle-aged people themselves be the counselor? Does there have to be a third-party witness to sign off on the whole thing?
Just seems like it’d be an awful moodkiller to go through all that.
Yeah, ignoring the absolute creepiness of this idea, it’s also entirely impractical. A horny teenager isn’t going to want to spend the time talking to a counselor, and an adult willing to sleep with a fifteen year old probably doesn’t want other people to want to know, either. Who’s going to set up these counseling offices? How will these sessions be mandated? Is parental consent needed?
Logic. Not the strong point of this idea.
Amnesia – And what will be the content of the counseling?
It seems like it might end up as a meaningless gesture where they’d ask “do you really want this?”, the girl would say “yes” like he told her to do, and they’d give her the stamp of approval (along with, perhaps, even less credibility if she’s then raped, because she said in the counseling session she wanted it, and no takey backsies!).
Because anything else they could talk about–recognizing power dynamics in the relationship, the need for enthusiastic consent to sex, setting boundaries–might get distressingly feminist, and we couldn’t have that. (Not that you can teach a 15-year-old communication and limit-setting in one hour anyway, but I’m sure these guys wouldn’t want to take the risk.)
Oh fuck ass shit. In another part of the same entry (http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/teenage-sexuality/when-rape-is-not-rape) he justifies the rape of a FOUR YEAR OLD.
Obviously it wasn’t really rape, you see, because maybe it was just fondling and fondling’s not so bad and did you notice the judge was female and then he goes on to complain about not being allowed to watch a video of the assault.
I’m gonna go spend the next four hours barfing thanks.
do victims of statutory rape even have discretion over whether charges are pressed? like that seems to go against the whole idea of protecting people who are too young to intelligently consent to intercourse.
Sharculese – I can tell you from personal experience that the victim does not get a say there. In practice, they can do a pretty good job of concealing evidence and denying everything if oh no don’t hurt him I still love him, though.
cynickal seems to have the right idea.
No, Sharculese. If Consent isn’t an element of the crime, the victim doesn’t actually get a choice in pressing charges.
Granted an uncooperative victim can sink a case entirely, in practice, especially for statutory.
@Holly: That is truly sickening.
From the link: “So the word rape is redefined to serve an agenda: to make smaller transgressions look like heinous crimes.”
Yes, because the sexual assault of a four year old isn’t a heinous crime, I suppose. Last I check, the only agenda that defining something as a rape serves is that of prosecuting sexual assailants.
Holly, you forgot the “used-up vagina” trope. Because vaginas are only good for a limited number of uses, you know.
I’ve always wondered: do women have a digital read-out of the number of uses left on there vaginas before they get used up? Is it like my son’s asthma inhaler? ‘Cause you can totally get a few extra puffs out of those things even if the meter says zero.
Actually, vaginas have those little pull-out numbers that you take while waiting in line at the deli and the like. It gets pretty messy.
But, Laura, can’t you just replace the tape? It seems like it would be pretty easy to foil that system.
Oh well, I’ll just take a number and wait over there. :)
Holly and Nobinayamu have already covered most of the bases of the MRA arguments. Along with the “a 25 year old is a burned out husk of a woman” goes the argument, “Feminists want to keep the age of consent laws they way they are because they’re so jealous of 14 year old girls”. I know I’m not jealous of teenage girls, and I doubt one could find many feminists who are either. Even if 100% of feminist women were actually jealous of the way 14 year olds look, though, it would still be wrong for adults to have relationships with middle schoolers.
What if you never got the chance to have sex with a 15 year old when you were 15?
Also, this post is too short. Without Schwyzer updating either, what am I supposed to do with my internet time? This sucks.
This isn’t discrimination. It is matching up age of consent with the age of majority. If you are considered an adult, then you can consent. If you aren’t a legal adult, then you can’t.
If this guy wants to “fight” against this, he should challenge age of consent and majority laws instead of claiming discrimination.
Also, what is so old about 16 year olds? Why must they have access to 14 and 15 year olds? Are the 16 year olds no longer naive enough for them?
Thinking about it, if you start with the presuppositions that all female humans are A) interchangeable, and B) unable to mature past puberty, then you probably could reason yourself into believing that a hypothetical 12 year-old is no less fuckable than a hypothetical 42 year-old.
This, of course, also assumes that said arguments aren’t simply the rationalizations of chronophiles. Although, it is a pretty sad commentary when a massive logic failure is the optimistic option.
Hey Bill, care to explain again how we’re unfair when we call these guys creepy?
This is not a MRM issue.
Then why do the MRA talk about the age of consent so often?
“Accusations that feminists just love it and never object when women commit statutory rape of boys”
This was my experience.
On every feminist site I have read, all have condemned statutory rape of young boys. No feminist site I have ever read advocates for lowering the age of consent the way the MRAs do.
“Then why do the MRA talk about the age of consent so often?”
They don’t. Here is a list of the top three MRM sites in each category (according to traffic):
Purple:
fathersandfamilies.org
mensnewsdaily.com
falserapesociety.blogspot.com
Red:
the-spearhead.com
antimisandry.com
avoiceformen.com
AntZ, you’re full of shit and you know it.
Also, where are these feminists advocating for lowering of age of consent laws? Or celebrating raping young teen boys?
When? Where? Do you have links? Is this still your experience? Have your attitudes changed since seeing dozens of women condemning those actions?
Oh look the first thread I find when I Google The Spearhead and age of consent! A cached copy of a thread entitled “Age of Consent Should Be 15″ in which multiple posters make pretty much all of the same arguments that Holly listed above. Oh, I already know your response, AntZ. It’s only one thread, and “no true Scotsman.” We get it. And you’re full of shit.
http://www.somethingawful.com/d/weekend-web/spearhead-forum-misandry.php?page=5
I looked through the entire year of 2011. So far, there has not been even one article on age of consent, except for:
1) For obvious reasons on falserapesociety.
2) Articles about court ordered child support against under-age aged boys who were victimized by adult women.
This is another case of erecting a false effigy of a make-believe “men’s rights movement” in order to burn it down in a grand (but meaningless) gesture. The prophet speaks, the people are pacified, and the flock feverishly proclaim their faith. All is good in la-la land.
@blitzgal
A comment made in April 2010? Really? This is what a feminist means when she says “MRA talk about the age of consent so often?”
@Bostonian: Sure feminist websites don’t advocate for the lowering of the age of consent or say that it is perfectly ok to rape little boys…but they do ignore trends that make women appear in a negative light.
One such trend is female teachers raping or acting sexually towards male students.
The Big List: http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=39783
Right, Anthony. I fucking love it when women abuse boys. WTF, seriously.
How about mandatory counselling for MRAs? They could use some basic social skills and reading skills.
Ah, so if it happened a year ago it’s no big deal. Why do you guys still freak out over Andrea Dworkin and Mary Daly again?
Actually, I’ve only ever heard feminists specifically say “Nah, they’re rapists, throw ‘em in jail”.
Maybe you’re thinking of pop culture there, Brandon.
Brandon, tell me the names of every male teacher who’s been arrested for rape in the state of Wisconsin in the past year. And don’t use Google. You can’t, can you? That’s because the stories were treated as local news and did not receive national coverage, which is exactly how stories of female sexual predators are handled. As local news.
Brandon: Protip: Linking to World Net Daily does nothing to enhance your credibility.
Having said that, it appears that the article is just a list of women who have been accused of raping their students. There does not appear to be, at first glance, anything about the feminist response to the issue.
Brandon, feminists have noted those trends in posts, and have stated outright their horror of that type of thing, without blaming the boys in question for being “too sexy” or saying the boys were “mature for their age”.
Again, no feminists have advocated for lowering the age of consent to make raping 14 year olds legal.
Here, on men’s Rights Reddit, is a whole thread of advocates for raping young teens,
http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/jwaxm/feminist_debating_tactic_101_false_accusations_of/
This includes a screed about how raping 14 year olds is just natural and right, as long as those 14 year olds are girls.
@ Antz,
This is another case of erecting a false effigy of a make-believe “men’s rights movement” in order to burn it down in a grand (but meaningless) gesture. The prophet speaks, the people are pacified, and the flock feverishly proclaim their faith. All is good in la-la land.
Of course, the MRM couldn’t possibly be obsessed with such trivial issues as age of consent when there’s a sex-segregated utopia to be planned.
I’m gonna propose that it’s because 16-year-olds are old enough to drive. A 14 or 15-year-old cannot legally drive by themselves, so once you get them in a car or take them far away from their home they are more likely to be physically dependent on you for transportation and are therefore literally less able to escape. So going after kids who are under 16 means you have access to a much more vulnerable and easily-controlled population.
Charming shit, innit?
In contrast, here is an older post on Shakesville, regarding the case of a young boy raped by a woman.
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2008/07/this-is-not-right-type-of-equality.html
Here is a quote from the article
“Cases where women sexually assault men are vanishingly rare, and virtually all of them fall under the header of statutory rape. And in cases of statutory rape, there’s a tendency to say the boy was actually making out like a bandit — he’s a stud for getting with his teacher. But a 12-year-old boy is no more mature than a 12-year-old girl, and no more ready to have sex with someone twice his age. He is, I’m sure, no less confused than any other victim of statutory rape, and no less traumatized. So it’s good to know that when confronted with the rare male rape victim, our legal system will respond to him just like it would a 12-year-old girl — by saying it’s all about the victim, what he looked like, what he was doing, how he was at fault — thus traumatizing him all the more. Hooray for equality. Where’s the Tylenol?”
Please note the actual condemnation of raping the young boy in question, and the emphasis on the young boy’s innocence.
Check out this Jezebel thread from a couple days ago.
http://jezebel.com/5837203/25+year+old-mom-left-kids-home-alone-so-she-could-pop-pills-have-sex-with-her-13+year+old-neighbor
In the OP, the author characterizes a 25-year-old woman sleeping with a 13-year-old boy as “sex.” In the following comments, dozens of people–mostly women and mostly feminists, come forth to say “no, that’s rape.”
I love how his main argument (only argument?) is that the toddler was presumably not hospitalized therefore it couldn’t have been all that bad, and therefore wasn’t rape. Because apparently being physically capable of having something done to you without major injury means you consented to it.
Wow oh wow oh wow.
You know….This is something that I can speak to. I was 15 when I was raped the first time. Gods that sounds horrible to say. Anyway, horrors aside (who says survivors have no sense of humor), Why would a grown adult WANT to have sex with a child. That is what I still do not understand. I can tell you that the guy who had sex with me when I was 15 was 16 AND he still hurt me deeply. Regardless if it is a 16 year old OR a 35 year old or ANYONE over the age of consent NO ONE should be having sex with a 15 year old. Girl or Boy for that matter. It is an excuse for pedophilia and it is morally repugnant. I just don’t get it…But then again I have never been a pedophile or someone wanting to have sex with a minor. Guess I do not have the ability to understand the desire. I only have the ability to understand the damage done to a 15 year old girl having sex consentually or not.
Lucky
I have a counter-proposal for Human Stupidity: Any adult wishing to have sex with a minor should undergo mandatory counseling until (s)he realizes that it’s a really bad idea. Not sure how that would be enforced, but we could work out the details, I’m sure…
@Blitzgal: While those cases are often handled by local news outlets, the “trend” is often talked about on major national news networks.
@Captain Bathrobe: Really? Are you kidding me. That has to be the lamest attempt to counter a POV. The article links each woman to the news site that reported it. All WND did was compile them unto one page.
The article links to women that have been accused, convicted or have given confessions of sexual misconduct.
If you want a few more links…here you go:
http://www.zimbio.com/The+50+Most+Infamous+Female+Teacher+Sex+Scandals
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1901762,00.html
@Bostonian: So far there has been two links posted (Jezebel and Shakesville) about that topic. Count those two against the hundreds of posts about the DSK rape trials.
That is a pretty terrible ratio between female teacher rapists/DSK rape trial
To be the equivalent of the MRM, feminists would have to be advocating raping the young boys. You yourself have said you have not seen that sort of advocacy.
Feminist sites are primarily about feminism and women, not men’s issues, or boys issues, so the DSK case, which is recent, and shows many of the problems with the legal system, is written about more, and more recently, than women who abuse boys.
How many MRM sites advocate for the boy victims of rape? I have not seen any at all, yet.
I have seen many self identified MRAs advocate for raping 14 year old girls here in comments, and in posts to several men’s rights sites.
I’m sorry, Brandon, that I cannot link you to hundreds of posts right now, but my time here is limited.
If you’d like to assume the burden of proof, you can feel free to find me a feminist who supports women who sleep with young boys. Go right ahead. Give me the link. I won’t even ask for several hundred.
Brandon, odd-why are you just talking about women who have been convicted? I thought you were claiming feminists were okay with it-please link the ones that are okay with it?
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/05/child-rape-hilarious.html
A feminist site regarding Mary Kay LeTourneau.
A quote from the post, which is about Mary Kay LeTourneau-hosted “Hot for Teacher” night, which happened at a nightclub in Seattle
“Um… the fuck? It’s one thing to condone creepy schoolgirl fantasies (see: the poster for this very event, linked here, plus every fetish night in the world); it’s quite another to hold a party for a convicted child rapist who began grooming her victim when he was in the second grade. Would a nightclub have hosted a similar party for this guy, who raped three boys, between 6 and 10? Or this guy, 25, who raped a 12-year-old girl? Or this guy, 24, who raped a 10-year-old girl? Or the first two guys in this post–self-defense instructors who raped their female teenage students?
Of course not. And we shouldn’t give Letournau a pass just because she’s a sweet-looking white lady and her now-husband says he gave his consent. Victimization is victimization, even when it comes in a female (and thus non-“threatening”) package.”
Please note that the post calls the rape and victimization of a young teen, rape and victimization of a young teen, not seduction, and not sex.
I’m actually pretty okay with stuff like the Romeo and Juliet laws (in Washington state I believe a 16-year-old can legally have sex with anyone up to age 21, which is a too high imho but not horrifyingly so, and 15-year-olds can have sex with each other as well as with 16 and 17-year-olds) because within a peer group you can easily have a difference of a couple years without a severe power imbalance — especially when some kids enter kindergarten as early as 4, while others are held back until age 6, you get people at the same basic maturity level who aren’t the exact same age.
If two people are only a few years apart I find it believable (on a case-by-case basis) that they might simply like each other, and the older person is not necessarily taking advantage of the younger person (especially with older teens, where maturation rates start flattening out a bit compared to childhood.) But when there is a significant gap, or even a generational gap, then I am much more inclined to believe the “relationship” is actually predatory behavior by the older party; one doesn’t generally try to find someone so much more inexperienced and vulnerable than oneself without intending to take advantage of that inexperience and vulnerability.
“… How many MRM sites advocate for the boy victims of rape? I have not seen any at all, yet …”
When sexual predators are a bonus (September 3, 2011)
http://www.avoiceformen.com/men/boys/when-sexual-predators-are-a-bonus/
An article written THIS WEEK on “A voice for men”. Not a random post by a deranged idiot made to “Reddit” in April of last year — a full length article, written this week.
You people make up a fictitious men’s rights movement that does not exist, then make fun of it, then congratulate yourselves. Who do you think you are fooling? What purpose does this absurd policy serve?
The MRM:
Equal protection under the law
Equal protection of government
Feminism:
Hate
Brandon, it is incorrect for you to assume that if feminists don’t write enough on a topic to satisfy your arbitrary standards, then that must mean they actually are against you on the topic. I can’t find articles from feminists saying it is wrong to break peoples’ windows. That doesn’t mean feminists want people to break other peoples’ windows. It just means that it is a topic they aren’t dealing with because they already have a lot of other stuff to deal with.
Several other posters have actually given you examples of feminists condemning adult women who rape underage boys, but you have hand waved that away by saying it’s not enough. Then you ignored the many examples of MRA’s that do in fact condone adult men raping underage girls. You continue to move the goalposts, and the only reason I am bothering to respond to you is for the sake of lurkers.
Brandon’s just playing another round of “Feminists have to denounce my foes or they stand with my foes” I see.
Brandon, provide evidence we’re cool with this shit. You’ve had us tell you we don’t approve, you have been linked to folks saying otherwise.. fucking substantiate your jackassery already.
I’m actually pretty okay with stuff like the Romeo and Juliet laws (in Washington state I believe a 16-year-old can legally have sex with anyone up to age 21, which is a too high imho but not horrifyingly so, and 15-year-olds can have sex with each other as well as with 16 and 17-year-olds) because within a peer group you can easily have a difference of a couple years without a severe power imbalance — especially when some kids enter kindergarten as early as 4, while others are held back until age 6, you get people at the same basic maturity level who aren’t the exact same age.
yeah, this.
people mature at different rates. some people are ready to have sex in the their mid-teens. some people are not. deciding which one of those groups you fall into is a really tough decision to make, but not one that requires a blanket rule.
this of course means ready to have sex with somebody of a similar level of experience and maturity, not a someone significantly older.
Isn’t it cute how Anthony Zarat will pick and choose when and what things are relevant to the MRM? Oh silly Anthony, you don’t fool anyone.
Anthony Zarat, you are the same person who wants a virtual wife to replace the one you allege will leave you.
Everything David has posted, he has identified where and when it came from.
You have not identified anyone feminist who advocates the rape of young teen boys the way self identified MRAs advocate raping young teen girls.
When sexual predators are a bonus (September 3, 2011)
http://www.avoiceformen.com/men/boys/when-sexual-predators-are-a-bonus/
another lazy ‘if i arbitrarily define feminism as something if find icky then it turns out i can make feminism responsible for all the evil in the world’ screed
aka every voice for men article ever
what do you think this proves besides that you will believe just about anything as long as it paints women in a bad light?
@Bostonian: So far there has been two links posted (Jezebel and Shakesville) about that topic. Count those two against the hundreds of posts about the DSK rape trials.
Wait, what does that have to do with anything? Are you saying the head of the International Monetary Fund is a fifteen-year-old boy?
That… actually explains a lot about the economy.
All money everywhere will henceforth be invested in playing Halo.
@shaenon
every minute feminists are talking about dsk is a minute theyre not talking abut Brandons Problems. and thats… bad…
@Holly:
[quote]Obviously it wasn’t really rape, you see, because maybe it was just fondling and fondling’s not so bad and did you notice the judge was female and then he goes on to complain about not being allowed to watch a video of the assault.[/quote]
That man is disgusting. Excuse me while I go vomit.
Anthony Zarat, in the link you provided, most of the commenters blamed feminism for how female rapists are judged less harshly by the general public than male rapists. This is not the fault of feminists, though. It is an effect of the double standard that says that girls are dirty when they have sex, and boys are lucky when they have sex. This is something feminists are against. The people at A Voice for Men identified a real problem, but they are blaming the wrong people for it.
Anthony, it’s true that most MRAs don’t see age of consent as an MR issue.
But some, like the guy behind Human Stupidity, do, and these guys get very little criticism from other MRAs. Human Stupidity is linked to by a number of MR blogs — including, until recently, by the False Rape Society. In Mala FIde, a blog popular with MRAs, regularly runs pieces by him.
Another manosphere dude obsessed with age of consent and why it’s supposedly evil and “misandrist” is Jay Hammers; he’s written 16 posts for The Spearhead.