If at first you don’t succeed, grope her
This might work, actually.
Say what you will about the dedicated PUAs (Pick-Up Artists) of the world: at least they sometimes actually talk to real human women. The guys in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, I’m not so sure about.
It’s kind of sad, sometimes, to read the plaintive requests for advice on Seddit (as it’s known) from college guys who’ve fixated on some girl in some class of theirs, and want desperately to learn the secret formula to get into her pants. These aren’t guys who’ve mastered the art of “negging” women with clever little mini-insults (a favorite PUA technique); these are guys who haven’t quite grasped that you have to actually talk to a woman in order to ask her out.
Take this query, recently posted there:
My suggestion?
Write “coffee?” on your forehead, and stand in front of her. Point at your forehead if necessary.
So, yeah, I’ve been banned from Seddit.
Look, I feel for the guy. I’ve been that guy.
But just think of it from the point of view of the girl. Some guy you’ve never spoken to, some guy who doesn’t know a thing about you other than you make him feel funny in his pants, approaches you out of the blue and … slips you a note?
But really, the problem there isn’t the note. Well, part of the problem is the note, But the main problem is that college dude has never spoken to her before. As anyone who has watched Seinfeld knows well, “coffee” means “sex.” Going up to a woman you’ve never spoken to before and asking her out is a bit like saying “hi, you make me feel funny in my pants. I would like to put my penis in you. Perhaps we could chat a bit first. Though, clearly, I don’t care what’s in your actual brain, because here I am asking you out based on nothing more than the fact that you cause that aforementioned feeling in my pants.”
Pro-tip for lonely guys: remember that women are actual human beings also.
Now, this poor Sedditor got some good basic advice from the crowd there, basically boiling down to: figure out an excuse to talk to her before class, and see how it goes.
Now, Seddit may be mildly useful in giving this sort of basic advice to the truly hapless. But it doesn’t seem to be very good at getting across the notion that women are human.
Indeed, there was a strikingly similar question posted in Seddit a couple of days ago: a guy who wanted to ask out the only girl in his engineering class. His post, in stark contrast with the note guy, was bristling with PUA acronyms and lingo: the girl was an “HB8” (Hot Babe that he rated an 8 of 10 on the hotness scale); he was on the lookout for IOSs (Indications of Interest) from her, and so on and so on.
But his strategy was strikingly similar to that of the AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) with the note: he was going to walk up to her after class and ask her out for dinner. But he was planning to add one more “technique” to his approach: “kino.” In PUA-speak, kino means touch.
So, yeah, that’s what he learned from all his study of advanced PUA-oloogy: just start touching her! Women are eager to jump into bed with guys who come up to them out of the blue and start groping them. (The post itself was deleted after it got linked to in the ShitRedditSays subreddit, so no link.)
Trouble is, this guy is not the only one getting the message that Pick-up artistry is all about invading a woman’s personal space and “escalating” until she literally fights you off or given is. This is, in fact, the basic message of the PUA who calls himself Gunwich – a man who not that long ago (allegedly) shot a woman I the face after she refused his advances.
And, yes, pressuring a woman until she gives in, or up, is one way of getting in her pants. It’s also, you know, rape.
In recent days a number of Sedditers have posted advice that is little more than a how-to of date rape. A number of instances were pointed out in ShitRedditSays, and were deleted by the Seddit moderators. It’s clear this is damage control; a number of regulars on ShitRedditSays have been banned from posting in Seddit – many of whom had actually never posted there in the first place.
Here’s a discussion of one copy-and pasted date rape guide that got deleted before anyone made a screencap.
The Seddit mods say this is “fringe” stuff that doesn’t reflect how most Sedditors think. Then how is it that some of the creepiest comments get dozens of upvotes? Take this Sedditor’s advice on how to get inside a woman’s house (and then her pants) that I managed to screencap before it was deleted:
Now, there is plenty of PUA material that is not rapey. Manipulative, sure. Dopey, absolutely. But not rapey. A good Pick-Up Artist, in theory at least, should be able to tell when a woman is interested and when she isn’t, and move on when she isn’t.
But it’s clear that many Sedditors aren’t learning that whole “if she’s not interested, move on” thing. They’re learning: “if she’s not interested, pressure her and manipulate her, and wear her down. And be sure to touch her. Sorry, “kino escalate.”
They’re not learning empathy. They’re learning stupid human tricks. And, worse, they’re learning to ignore a woman’s “no,” to treat it as what PUAs call LMR – that is, Last Minute Resistance. And that’s pretty much a formula for date rape.
Posted on September 2, 2011, in creepy, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, nice guys, PUA, rape, rapey, reddit, sexual harassment. Bookmark the permalink. 858 Comments.
Rutee Katreya wrote “You should probably try telling the MGTOW this, because they seem to spend far more time whining about not getting laid than they do… well, any other sort of activism, let me tell you what.”
Rutee your perspective on MGTOW is incorrect. The MGTOW is all about men breaking free from the bondage of Lust. The MGTOW movement is about men becoming independent of women.Not in a hateful or separatist way.But about men going within, exploring what masculinity is within themselves, not needing women to “fix” them as the atrocious PUA movement seems to want.
For an MGTOW man to say a big “NO” to sexually objectifying women goes against the grain of a media saturated society that tells men otherwise,That is being independent and a better overall masculine man.
shaenon, are you gonna put the Book of Learnin’ in a forum thread? Because that would make it much easier to find all the parts! :P
samuel2112, I know we’ve gone over this before, but…
Lust doesn’t work like that.
Really, it doesn’t. Squishing your sexual impulses usually makes people even more unpleasant; there’s much better ways to deal with them. Like seeing women as people? Asking for consent? Wanking, even?
You keep saying that, and the other MGTOW keep disagreeing with you loudly by continuing to whine about sex or talk about how evil women are, etc.
I can declare feminism is REALLY about searching for Prester John, and that this ‘women are people’ malarkey is a barrier to that, but it ain’t gonna make feminism about the search for PRester John, because that’s not what feminists do, and it’s not what they talk about.
samuel2112:
I’m sure this is exactly true.
(Bearing in mind that the world is round)
Rutee:
Well, the impression I get is tht they whine about not having gotten laid in the past, to which they responded “you can’t fire me, I quit” and went TOW.
We’re actually just on the lookout for the next great shoe sale. Don’t let those misogynists tell you any different!
Hershele wrote Well, the impression I get is that they whine about not having gotten laid in the past, to which they responded “you can’t fire me, I quit” and went TOW.
Hershele I assume your a guy as Rutee is. No it is not about ” I quit” it is the opposite. The MGTOW movement is about reconstructing and redefining what manhood is all about. It is absolutely disgusting that a movement such as the PUA movement just reinforces the perception that many women have ( not all but many) that all men are”pigs” and all men need sex. The PUA movement views women as sexual objects to possess which actually could lead to sexual violence against women.
The MGTOW says NOT to the objectification of women. Many (not all) MGTOW men are married or in relationships with women. We say we become stronger men while actually seeing women as human beings not Sexual Objects to possess.
The PUA does the opposite. What a shame in my opinion.Hershele this in one aspect has nothing to do with women it has to do with MRA’s debating amongst ourseleves to become better Husbands, Boyfriends, Fathers etc.
Um, in what why does becoming a better husband or boyfriend not have anything to do with women? (Assuming we’re talking about straight couples here.)
Dracula wrote Um, in what why does becoming a better husband or boyfriend not have anything to do with women? (Assuming we’re talking about straight couples here.)
I should have wrote MGTOW means becoming better Human Beings ultimately. By not sexually objectifying women(talking about heterosexual men) and always on the “prowl” for sex, Men can focus their energies on Humanitarian issues like helping our world be a better place to live for all people.Kapish?
samuel2112, earlier you were talking about being chaste. Have you abandoned this line of thinking?
samuel2112, earlier you were talking about being chaste. Have you abandoned this line of thinking?
No Molly I have not abandoned being chaste. I am saying while some MGTOW men choose celibacy or permanent bachelorhood, there are many MGTOW men who are in relationships with women but choose to focus on the emotional connection as well as Physical.Something the PUA movement does not do.
For MGTOW that are single but choosing to date women, many of these guys refuse to always be “on the prowl” for sex, which is foreign to the PUA movement.
MGTOW men think with the Language of the Heart as opposed to The Language of the Penis
“MGTOW men think with the Language of the Heart as opposed to The Language of the Penis”
Guys, can “Language of the Penis” be our next meme? XD
It’s a bit like sign language. See: Puppetry of the Penis.
http://www.puppetryofthepenis.com/
I’m fairly certain a lot of people who engage in casual sex are also trying to good in the world. I am not, I feel I should clarify, defending PUAs. The problem with them is not that they’re trying to have casual sex, the problem is they’re going about in a way objectives women.
“… a way [that objectifies] women.”
Magpie wtf? Puppety of the penis? WTF site is that?
But on a more serious note, the few anti PUA movement comments I have made have been responded by men. This is a Mens issue amongst men. Magpie we men have got to step up to the plate, redefine what manhood is all about, and for crying out loud start thinking with our hearts when dealing with the opposite sex, as opposed to our penises.
We men must must!!! view women as People not sexual objects to posses. Ultimately this will elevate men as better human beings when dealing with both women AND men. We men need to discuss this amongst ourselves. It is not the womens fault.
Samuel, I understand stepping back from relationships while you think about life, and love, and what to do with your life – “find yourself” if you like. When you talk about saving sperm to make yourself a stronger man, that just sounds a bit silly. And, as everyone here has been telling you, you can have the hots for a woman without objectifying her, just as she can feel the same for you.
Puppetry of the Penis is a comedy show, where the two men manipulate their genitals into various shapes. Like the ‘white eared elephant’ sort of thing. :)
I gotta tell ya, samuel, my heart is not in any way opposed to my penis. The two have a perfectly harmonious relationship.
Dracula wrote “I’m fairly certain a lot of people who engage in casual sex are also trying to good in the world. I am not, I feel I should clarify, defending PUAs. The problem with them is not that they’re trying to have casual sex, the problem is they’re going about in a way objectives(sic) women.”
Right on brother!!, You got it. Nothing wrong with casual sex if you value that Just remeber their are consequences such as potential STD’s and potential feelings of shame. MGTOW is about everyone going their own way doing their own thing.You nailed it.The PUA are going in a way that objectifies women.
Rutee is female, Samuel. She’s dating a woman.
Also, I don’t WANT men to stop thinking of me in a sexual manner. I’m a sexual being; I want people to have sex with me. Flirting is fun, cuddling is fun, sex is hella fun. The problem is when people see me as ONLY a sexual being, to the exclusion of my personhood. That’s not okay. (Or when people are rapey or say “all women” about statements that do not describe my previous sexual history at all.)
ozymandias42 wrote”The problem is when people see me as ONLY a sexual being, to the exclusion of my personhood. That’s not okay. }
That is what I am saying. The problem is Ozy is that when unconscious men see you in a sexual manner, it could lead to thoughts of sexual possessiveness over women. Which means sexual objectification of women. This could lead to sexual violence against women.
However if a man is conscious and aware of this fact such as some men (like me and others who are MGTOW) can see a women’s personhood that is a different story.
Ozy my motto is liberarian-live and let live. Have sex.hink sex is fun. Go for it. Just be very very very careful out there many men are still unconscious and can be violent. Be careful.I do not want to see you or any women date raped or hurt.
Hey, Samuel/General Ripper is back! A few days ago, I thought he was hilarious because he wouldn’t respond when asked if he was a KKK member (IIRC), but in the meantime we’ve had a couple different neo-Nazis here and he’s become a lot less special.
Ozy my motto is liberarian-live and let live. Have sex.hink sex is fun. Go for it. Just be very very very careful out there many men are still unconscious and can be violent. Be careful.I do not want to see you or any women date raped or hurt.
Dude, we can take care of ourselves. We’re neither children nor legal minors.
Samuel, I know you’re trying to be…caring and altruistic, I guess, but really, you gotta look at where you’re placing yourself. Not in the sense of, “Oh yeah, I know who I am, I’m ______ and that’s all.”, I mean think about it in terms of, “Huh…how is this helping me to enjoy life?”
In short, if one is going to accept a position, one has to introspect and be honest about the benefits/flaws involved.
Voip wrote “Dude, we can take care of ourselves. We’re neither children nor legal minors”
I never said women were children or minors. I was just responding to Ozy’s statement about sex being fun. I encourage women to make adult decisions and informed choices pertaining to sex.
However, there are some unsavory men out there. Rape does happen. Women do get raped it is a reality. Generally speaking men are physically stronger than women(not all, there are women stronger than men).
Voip just be careful out there. Lots of dudes have wrong motives. I do not wish to see any women get raped or abused physically. When men sexually lust and objectify women as objects not people there is a chance that this thinking can lead to sexual assault and violence against women.
“However, there are some unsavory men out there. Rape does happen. Women do get raped it is a reality. Generally speaking men are physically stronger than women(not all, there are women stronger than men).”
…Ok, and you think we don’t know that already?
Again, don’t be so concerned for us. Think of yourself and where you’re headed for a bit.
Yes how dare I disagree with you and how dare I use a dictionary instead of pulling definitions out of my ass.
Huh looks like the comment I responded to disappeared
Samuel’s back and he’s from the future now? XD Why didn’t nebody tell me? xD
He’s not doing a v good job of going his own way is he o_O
On to the OP! Honestly, I think the coffee note isn’t a bad idea, provided that the person understands that it might fail and then move on…. and yes she may regard you as creepy… but… Kobiyashi Maru, remember? xD Srsly… I’m okay w/ the note, it def beats cornering a person, or having to have them respond to you in front of other ppl, or etc… I wish ppl would just slip me notes instead of blocking my way, or standing so I can’t leave the parking lot w/o running their feet over, and then telling me they want to “drink” me and etc xD
I think coffee at night (which is the Seinfeld example) means sex, but coffee before class just means coffee… doesn’t it? o_O
But the main part is, just b/c you like somebody doesn’t mean they’ll like you,or even be interested, and part of it is being okay w/ taking rejection. Just cuz you badly want somebody doesn’t mean there’s a way of being able to get w/ them, and that’s where the KM part comes in :3 And why I think PUA can be problematic, b/c it implies that there’s always a way, and it’s just about tuning up your “game and etc… and sometimes there’s just no way, and that’s okay :3
“It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.” :3
Did somebody ELSE assume Rutee is male again cuz she has a g/f? XD
If anything I would love to see people stop using the phrase “get raped.” Women don’t “get raped.” People rape women. (Similarly, I hate “get pregnant.” It implies that no one did it, it just happened.)
Nitpick over.
“Yes how dare I disagree with you and how dare I use a dictionary instead of pulling definitions out of my ass.”
Yes, how dare you be an insensitive, over-privileged douchebag. It must be really nice, never having to have dealt with your boyfriend pressuring you and pressuring you and pressuring you, until you just couldn’t take it anymore and decided to lie back and think of England.
I bet it’s really nice, never having to deal with the way society will treat you over something like that. Or the part where you have to be inside your own head, trying to deal with what happened. Or spending the next 5+ years struggling to have sex, because your own body won’t accept it and it hurts like hell. Or dealing with having that same pain with your husband, whom you love very much, simply because the things you’ve been through are in the past but they’re not actually gone.
A dictionary is completely fucking inadequate for describing what rape is, and that you’d use one to do so is vile. So shut up, because you don’t have the first clue what you’re talking about.
Magpie wrote
“Samuel, I understand stepping back from relationships while you think about life, and love, and what to do with your life – “find yourself” if you like. When you talk about saving sperm to make yourself a stronger man, that just sounds a bit silly. And, as everyone here has been telling you, you can have the hots for a woman without objectifying her, just as she can feel the same for you
Magpie When I talk about “saving sperm” it is not just to make myself stronger. I mean your a dude, don’t you feel more focused after abstaining from sex with your wife and/or masturbation for even a few weeks/months?. I am not talking about an entire lifetime.
It is freeing. A man that is freed from the bondage of “sexual craving” can transfer that powerful seed energy into his art, hobbies, work, ad yes even into his relationships. I have never been married but I am sure it could help a married man even see his own wife’s humanity more clearly-not how how she can give him an orgasm.
I have some married friends who have said they even objectify and use their own spouses at times for sex.
Samuel, I understand stepping back from relationships while you think about life, and love, and what to do with your life – “find yourself” if you like. When you talk about saving sperm to make yourself a stronger man, that just sounds a bit silly. And, as everyone here has been telling you, you can have the hots for a woman without objectifying her, just as she can feel the same for you”
Magpie I mean you a man, don’t you feel more focused after having refrained from sex for a few weeks or months? I am in no way implying an entire lifetime. A man who refrains from sex can now utilize that powerful sexual energy to focus more on his work,hobbies,creative pursuits, and yes even in his relationships.
Also Magpie Although I am a bachelor, I have heard from some married dudes that they have struggled at times with objectifying their own wive’s. Literally, using their own wives as a way to get an orgasm, not seeing her as a a human being. One can actually learn how to be a better husband.
Chocominties wrote If anything I would love to see people stop using the phrase “get raped.” Women don’t “get raped.” People rape women. (Similarly, I hate “get pregnant.” It implies that no one did it, it just happened.)
Yes I can agree with that statement. The point is when a person( generally men) rape a women, it is a someone’s body part( in this case an erect penis) forcibly going “in” and penetrating into someone’s body.
How devastating it must feel for the women being raped.
This is an interesting thread so I am trying to respond to everyone’s comments.
Redlocker wrote and, don’t be so concerned for us. Think of yourself and where you’re headed for a bit.
You implied I am concerned about the welfare of women and the toxicity of rape and sexual objectification of women. Actually, as I mentioned to some men here, this aspect of this topic really just deals in a way with us men only.
We men have to look at ourselves, re evaluate what it is to be a man. We men need to stop thinking with our penises all the time. I know I sound redundant but it is crucial.
These young kids that is men Teenage men whether in the hood or the country or suburbs need to start seeing women as people not lust hits.
Society will be better off if Men stepped up to the plate
Shesaidwut stated “Yes, how dare you be an insensitive, over-privileged douchebag. It must be really nice, never having to have dealt with your boyfriend pressuring you and pressuring you and pressuring you, until you just couldn’t take it anymore and decided to lie back and think of England.
I bet it’s really nice, never having to deal with the way society will treat you over something like that. Or the part where you have to be inside your own head, trying to deal with what happened. Or spending the next 5+ years struggling to have sex, because your own body won’t accept it and it hurts like hell. Or dealing with having that same pain with your
husband, whom you love very much, simply because the things you’ve been through are in the past but they’re not actually gone.
A dictionary is completely fucking inadequate for describing what rape is, and that you’d use one to do so is vile. So shut up, because you don’t have the first clue what you’re talking about.”
Shesaidwut WOW!!! Your a women I assume. You know where this MGTOW is coming from. If you could stand in street during a slutwalk or at Mardi Gras or in a big city on a typical Saturday nigh “club night” with a bullhorn preaching that statement, it would be Powerful,very Powerful. Sorme women need to hear what you .
For Shesaidwut’s comment I would like women here to respond to her comment?
I’m a woman. ;)
“For Shesaidwut’s comment I would like women here to respond to her comment?”
Sigh. Look, when people think of rape, they think of a violent attack down a dark ally in the middle of the night. Rape can take place at any time, any where, with someone you could be particularly close to. It doesn’t matter what the situation is, but if one person is not entirely consensual, then it is rape. End of story. Props to shesaidwut for unnecessarily spilling her guts on a public forum to make that point.
As for MGTOWers, why do you have to really make an effort to not disrespect women? I get this whole “it’s either rape or nothing” vibe when it comes to these guys. Really, I see a lot of guys who don’t obsess over what their penis tells them, so why is it such a struggle for others? I have a friend who’s a bit unlucky with the ladies but, you know, he gets on with his life. Your penis is not the center of your universe. Seriously, focus on career, hobbies, socializing, anything that doesn’t involve thinking about how your penis could potentially harm someone. Yeesh! >.>
Magpie sorry I thought you were a man based on your Gravatar. Yikes.lol.Now I know.
Joanna wrote “As for MGTOWers, why do you have to really make an effort to not disrespect women? I get this whole “it’s either rape or nothing” vibe when it comes to these guys. Really, I see a lot of guys who don’t obsess over what their penis tells them, so why is it such a struggle for others? I have a friend who’s a bit unlucky with the ladies but, you know, he gets on with his life. Your penis is not the center of your universe. Seriously, focus on career, hobbies, socializing, anything that doesn’t involve thinking about how your penis could potentially harm someone. Yeesh! >.>
Joanna, I guess some men are more sexual or hornier than others. Think of a horny man as the wildest feral Pit Bull in a cage. While the PIt Bull is caged, a man can see a woman as a human being, can actually have a more healthier relationship with a woman. A man can actually star out being friends with a woman while the Feral Pit Bull is caged.He can give to a woman emotionally without taking. The getting is in the giving.
Eventually, sex can and usually does occur and i is better sex with love and connection. Rather than just 2 people fornicating. I mean for crying out loud, whatever happened to courtship?
I HATE TO SHOUT.BUT I ASKED WOMEN ON THIS SITE TO RESPOND TO Shesaidwut COMMENT ON RAPE FROM HER PERSPECTIVE. THIS WAS ABOUT 90 MINUTES AGO.
ONLY 1 WOMAN HAD THE GUTS TO RESPOND TO Shesaidwut COMMENT. THANKS JOANNA.I MEAN THAT.
WHY DOES THIS MAKE WOMEN FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE!? WE ARE TALKING ABOUT NOT JUST COLD ANONYMOUS RAPE BUT DATE RAP WHICH IS STILL A HUGE PROBLEM IN OUR COUNTRY AND OVERSEAS.
CMON LADIES I WANT TO HEAR RESPONSES TO Shesaidwut COMMENT.STEP UP TO THE MANBOOBZ PULPIT.
okay no more shouting but I am confused to how women really feel about date rape. Women on craigslist have been killed and murdered from meeting guys online.That is why craigslist has tried to remedy this problem.Date Rape is a reality that is getting worse.To have an erect penis forcibly entering a woman’s private body which is part of her humanity is atrocious and disgusting and sad at he same time.
We feel date rape is a bad thing.
We also feel date consensual sex is a good thing.
We are saddened by guys who don’t know the difference (which means not just rapists, but also guys who are afraid to have sex at all for fear it will be rape) and made happy by guys who do.
We also don’t care if you’re celibate or whatever but you need to get over the idea that it’s some wonderful favor you’re doing to the women of the world.
Thanks Holly for at least having the guts to take me on. M Scott Peck who wrote “The Road Less Travelled” one said “IF there is no friction, there is no growth.” We can agree to disagree. This whole rant by me originated with me as an MGTOW MRA stating that the PUA movement(the subject of David’s blog), is atrocious and offensive to me as a man.
In fact since I stated that by men objectifying women as sexual objects to possess not as humans could actually lead to a PUA date raping a girl. I have absolutely no respect for the PUA movement and do not even consider it part of the MRM.
I perused your blog and was struck by a blog from a few months ago..
The blog was called “bowling therapy”.In the blog, Holly had a vision of a night out of bowling between MRA’s and Feminists just to have fun and fellowship together and get know each other as people.
She writes “I want them to learn that spending time with a woman isn’t a laborious prerequisite to fucking her, but a pleasant thing in itself, a way to feel more alive and connected to the world.”
She also writes that she holds “The radical feminist opinion that you should treat women like people even if this doesn’t get you laid-but if they learn that treating women as humans leads to happy penis felling so much the better.”
I really liked those quotes. For this man, a “happy penis feeling” means a happy heart. That I have the ability to think with my head and heart not my horny flesh. That as a man I Can see women as human beings and I can absolutely refuse to sexually objectify women and still be considered masculine. In fact even more masculine than the average joe.”
Holly nailed it! Some women on manboobz asked why do I care about this as a man. Well sexism is wrong as is racism. A month ago I was cynical of anything to do with feminism. However, here is an organization I am now aligned with.
These dudes are cool and mach and masculine in my opinion
. Check em out
http://www.nomas.org/
Oddly enough, I use my wife as a way of achieving orgasm AND view her as a human being. Both at the same time. Because desire and objectification are not necessarily the same thing.
Samuel, while I respect you for at least applying the bullshit virgin/whore dichotomy to yourself, it’s still bullshit.
Say it with me five hundred thousand milionty billion times: SEXUAL ATTRACTION IS NOT SEXUAL OBJECTIFICATION. You can fuck–even fuck casually–and be a good person who respects others. You can think with your cock and your heart and your brain all at the same time and sometimes they will agree that having sex would be nice.
Sometimes women want to have sex with men. It is not disrespectful or unmasculine or objectifying to, with their enthusiastic consent, give them what they want.
Like I’ve said eleventy gazillion times, no one is trying to talk you out of your personal celibacy. But we are trying to talk you out of thinking it’s morally superior or that it’s doing women a big favor.
Holly I hate to be redundant. I am going to post again http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/search?q=bowling+therapy
For those unfamiliar with the blog post above is the link.Read it!
Holly please respond to my comment on your blog whta do you think? I mean you wrote the blog?
I perused your blog and was struck by a blog from a few months ago..
The blog was called “bowling therapy”.In the blog, Holly had a vision of a night out of bowling between MRA’s and Feminists just to have fun and fellowship together and get know each other as people.
She writes “I want them to learn that spending time with a woman isn’t a laborious prerequisite to fucking her, but a pleasant thing in itself, a way to feel more alive and connected to the world.”
She also writes that she holds “The radical feminist opinion that you should treat women like people even if this doesn’t get you laid-but if they learn that treating women as humans leads to happy penis felling so much the better.”
I really liked those quotes. For this man, a “happy penis feeling” means a happy heart. That I have the ability to think with my head and heart not my horny flesh. That as a man I Can see women as human beings and I can absolutely refuse to sexually objectify women and still be considered masculine. In fact even more masculine than the average joe.”
Holly nailed it! .
Moreover, Some women on manboobz asked why do I care about this as a man. Well sexism is wrong as is racism. A month ago I was cynical of anything to do with feminism. However, here is an organization I am now aligned with.
These dudes are cool and macho and masculine in my opinion. These cats have my mission in life down. Halelulah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Finally an Feminist organization that is clearly advocating Mens Rights as well. Moreover,there is so much potential for this organization. I’m going for it come hell or high water.
. Check em out
http://www.nomas.org/
Samuel, you just all caps yelled at women for not answering you in 90 minutes, on a weekend very early morning? Holly’s awake and online and responded, but seriously, no, you don’t get to angrily demand a response from women to your concerns. Look at that very closely, see any elements that people might take exception to?
I think Holly also nailed it with her comments here, Sam. Have you read those?
Wow, talk about “check your privilege at the door, dude!” Your asking the women on this site to respond to something does NOT entitle you to have all or any of the women who frequent this site suddenly drop whatever it is that they happened to be doing at the time of your request and race to their computers in order to fulfill your request.
For one thing, different time zones… some of the women who frequent this site might be still peacefully slumbering.
Another thing, at least here in North America, it is Sunday morning on Labour Day weekend. Some of the women who frequent this site, and who are not at their workplace, might be enjoying the long weekend at camp or elsewhere, perhaps with a partner, perhaps with their children, etc.
Have a bit of patience, please!
As for Shesaidwut’s comment, look no further than the organization that you have now aligned yourself with to find an article that speaks to what I believe Shesaidwut is referring to in her comment:
Manufacturing Consent – Is It Rape?
@felixBC,
Glad I’m not the only one who took exception to that!!
Samuel, lust is not a problem in and of itself.
Why are you back here? Weren’t you going your own way?
BTW, classy move with all the yelling. Who the fuck are you again?
You seriously have to ask why the subject of rape might make some women uncomfortable, Samuel? And on top of that, you throw an all-caps screaming fit when they fail to answer you in a timely fashion, even though most people were probably asleep when you asked in the first place?
Samuel, those things I posted mean you shouldn’t just see women as sexual. They don’t mean you shouldn’t see women as sexual.
Do you get the difference?
Not only that, Sam reposts the same comment twice in succession because he has not immediately received an answer about it from Holly.
Pro-tip, Sam: other people exist as wholly separate entities from yourself. They have their own thoughts, priorities, and desires that may be at variance with your own. I know, weird huh?
It’s considered polite to take this into account when conversing with others.
@pam And before my first coffee, too! Not wise. Apparently no woman on this forum could possibly ever live several times zones west of Samuel. Or be offline.
Now that I’ve had coffee, I’m mulling over this:
Well, yes. But it’s about the context and consent, obviously. Sam here seems to think the act of sex itself is wrong. What if there’s no penis and/or penetration, Sam? Still devastating?
Samuel seems to think he’s reached some sort of harmonic convergence with feminist goals, but I am mistrustful when his foundation is “sex is evil so let’s all stop wanting it.” Sharper and clearer when withholding sperm, really?
Yes, she’s making him be redundant, and we all know how he HATES that!!!
Hellkell wroteSamuel, lust is not a problem in and of itself.
Why are you back here? Weren’t you going your own way?
BTW, classy move with all the yelling. Who the fuck are you again?
I now realize it is Labor day weekend here in the States and people are not at their PC”S.
Hellkell I am here again. I did leave this site for almost a month. I needed to regroup. I started my own blog. I am not asking for people to blog with me.
In the corner of my eye I perused this site and saw The article by David on the PUA movement.
I am sorry but I could not resist responding. I absolutely think the PUA movement is a despicable disgraceful and poisonous movement. It absolutely invokes men to lose any humanity and be obsequious to women to try to “get laid”
The PUA movement is an Absolute insult I mean an Absoute Poisonius insult to me as ab MRA. These guys are dangerous. I do not consider the PUA movement part of a valid MRM movement, The PUA movement in my opinion is digusting.
Freaking objectifying women as :game” not human beings. I could not resist posting. I will probably write an article on my own blog on the PUA,.
As I said before Sexual Objectification of women leadt a manto feeling he possesses a women and can really lead too violence against women. That is why I am here.
Yes, PUA is wrong, and date rape is much wronger, but neither one is wrong because it involves sex.
felix bc wrote Well, yes. But it’s about the context and consent, obviously. Sam here seems to think the act of sex itself is wrong. What if there’s no penis and/or penetration, Sam? Still devastating?
I understand where your coming from. However, I speak in terms of heterosexual relationships.
I almost cried when I read Shesaidwhut’s post. That was harrowing.
Women, I am absolutely not against sex. Sex is god given beautiful loving. However, spiritually when you sleep around with too many men ( I am not implying women here do that) but you sleeping with every other woman he slept with. Your risking STD’s, yes condoms are effective like 98% of the time. But like 2% chance you can get an STD is playing with fire.
I think sex is beautiful, The problem is sex can become an addiction. An orgasm produces so much endorphins is as god of feeling as probably cocaine or other drugs are. It can be addicting. You can be in bondage to sex. I mean sex controlling you, not the other way around.
Plus Women here like Joanna and Pam and NOI and Ami and Holly and Ozy and Redlocker and Magpie and others just be careful out there.
There are good men but many dudes(trust me I am a dude I know) do not have the best interests for women. They just want to “get laid:.
Some women are killed by men on Craigslist from the NSA section.
I mean I am not perfect but I ask you this if you had a daughter would you rather have her date a guy like me who is going o see her as a human being with fears, hobbies,likes,dislikes, sense of humor or a typical unconscious dude like the PUA bullshit who just sees body parts and nothing else.
Pam I will check out your link on http://www.nomas.org/ I still think this organizatio is Awesome and real cool. Plus they are considered “pro feminist: as well as an MRA group
How dou you like that?
Samuel, those things I posted mean you shouldn’t just see women as sexual. They don’t mean you shouldn’t see women as sexual.
Do you get the difference?
I understand. However you specifically wrote in the blog in your own words about desiring men to see you as a human being. Holly writes “I want them(men) to learn that spending time with a woman isn’t a laborious prerequisite to fucking her, but a pleasant thing in itself, a way to feel more alive and connected to the world.”
She also writes that she holds “The radical feminist opinion that you should treat women like people even if this doesn’t get you laid-but if they learn that treating women as humans leads to happy penis felling so much the better.”
I really liked those quotes Holly. For this man, a “happy penis feeling” means a happy heart. That I have the ability to think with my head and heart not my horny flesh. That as a man I Can see women as human beings and I can absolutely refuse to sexually objectify women and still be considered masculine. In fact even more masculine than the average joe.
Holly stated to me I shouldn’t see women as just sexual it does not mean I should not see women as sexual. Do I know the difference.
I understand but you said in your bowling therapy blog She writes “I want them to learn that spending time with a woman isn’t a laborious prerequisite to fucking her, but a pleasant thing in itself, a way to feel more alive and connected to the world.” She also writes that she holds “The radical feminist opinion that you should treat women like people this doesn’t get you laid-but if they learn that treating women as humans leads to happy penis felling so much the better.”
I really liked those quotes. For this man, a “happy penis feeling” means a happy heart. That I have the ability to think with my head and heart not my horny flesh. That as a man I Can see women as human beings and I can absolutely refuse to sexually objectify women and still be considered masculine. In fact even more masculine than the average joe.
I understand where your coming from. However, I speak in terms of heterosexual relationships.
Heterosexual people can do things besides penis-in-vagina penetration too. And rape isn’t a “relationship.” And anyway, what happens physically is just not the real problem here. The problem is violating someone’s consent and causing them pain and fear and humiliation. The exact mechanics of how you do that are really secondary.
However, spiritually when you sleep around with too many men ( I am not implying women here do that) but you sleeping with every other woman he slept with.
How many is too many? And isn’t this still the case if I only sleep with one man? And why should I care? Sleeping with lots of people can be a lovely experience of sharing pleasure with lots of people. Why would I not want to be a part of that?
Your risking STD’s, yes condoms are effective like 98% of the time. But like 2% chance you can get an STD is playing with fire.
Yeah, well, you can’t cross the street without taking a risk either. As long as you see it as “if I’m hit by a car, I will probably have to go to the hospital and may die” rather than “if I’m hit by a car, I’LL BE A DIRTY FILTHY,” you’re able to take that risk.
I know sex is not 100% safe. But nothing is, and as an adult, I can take my chances.
Plus Women here like Joanna and Pam and NOI and Ami and Holly and Ozy and Redlocker and Magpie and others just be careful out there.
Gosh, THANKS, Buddy. I really needed that from you.
I am careful. I also have sex.
There are good men but many dudes(trust me I am a dude I know) do not have the best interests for women. They just want to “get laid:.
Those guys are pretty nice to have around when I just want to get laid, actually.
mean I am not perfect but I ask you this if you had a daughter would you rather have her date a guy like me who is going o see her as a human being with fears, hobbies,likes,dislikes, sense of humor or a typical unconscious dude like the PUA bullshit who just sees body parts and nothing else.
I would rather she date a guy who sees her as a human being with fears, hobbies, likes, dislikes, a sense of humor, and also as a sexual being with a body that is capable of giving her great pleasure.
Oh, and I know some people in NOMAS, and they would SHIT THEMSELVES if they found out someone thought of them as MRAs.
Stop fucking repeating yourself, Samuel, it didn’t make sense the first time.
@Holly Pervocracy
“Say it with me five hundred thousand milionty billion times: SEXUAL ATTRACTION IS NOT SEXUAL OBJECTIFICATION.”
Well except when a woman says it is, it all depends on her “feelings” at any particular moment in time. If a woman “wants” to feel like an object of sexual desire than is OK, if not that’d be sexual harrassment. It all depends on her “mood.”
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“You can fuck–even fuck casually–and be a good person who respects others.”
Which is why feminists so love PUAs for their attitude on casual sex. You can casually fuckyfuckfuck as long as she “feels” respected, if she doesn’t, that’d probably be date rape.
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“You can think with your cock and your heart and your brain all at the same time and sometimes they will agree that having sex would be nice.”
Unfortunately, I can only think with my brain. When women think with their pussies, hearts and brains at the same time, is that like the feminists version of the holy trinity?
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“Sometimes women want to have sex with men. It is not disrespectful or unmasculine or objectifying to, with their enthusiastic consent, give them what they want.”
Yes, always give a woman whatever she wants. That’s paramount to a mans spiritual, physical and emotional fullfillment.
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“But we are trying to talk you out of thinking it’s morally superior or that it’s doing women a big favor.”
How odd, consider the standard comment is, “these losers would do women a huge favor if they’d GTOW!”
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“We feel date rape is a bad thing.
We also feel date consensual sex is a good thing.
We are saddened by guys who don’t know the difference (which means not just rapists, but also guys who are afraid to have sex at all for fear it will be rape) and made happy by guys who do.”
But by law, your “feelings” at any particular point in time determine what constitutes sexual assault. Even retroactively. Womens law clearly states that any woman can “enthusiastically” have sex with a man and even years later suddenly “feel” that she was raped. Ayiyiyi, she could being enthusiastically swinging from the rafters like a crazed ape on PCP and still claim it was date rape years later.
Heres a link to your beloved RAINN so you can see State by State the statute of limitations.
http://www.rainn.org/public-policy/sexual-assault-issues/state-statutes-of-limitations
In my home State of Pennsylvania it’s 12 years. Can you imagine being hauled off to court and asked, “So Mr. Slave, where were you on the night of September 4th 1999?” Oddly enough, I have no fucking idea. Looks like my defense just went down the crapper.
—————————–
“Samuel, those things I posted mean you shouldn’t just see women as sexual. They don’t mean you shouldn’t see women as sexual.
Do you get the difference?”
Yep, the difference is, if a woman “feels” like being seen as sexual it’s OK, if she doesn’t it’s a crime. That’d be sexual harrassment, and it’s a crime.
——————————
Are you purposely throwing grapefruits out there? Cause there’s no way I can’t hit this shit outta the park!
It’s a park that only you see, NWO.
Oh good, Samuel’s back. I’m gonna pretend he’s 100 percent serious and not at all a sockpuppet.
But you don’t see women as human beings, Samuel. Nothing you’ve written here even hints at that. You were afraid to carpool with a lady because you thought you might get a boner in the car. Good lord, man. You can’t even talk about women without talking about sex, and then talking about how baaaaaaaaad it all is, and how little you want to do with it. It’s unnerving.
Here’s something you might enjoy, Samuel.
Holly stated
“Oh, and I know some people in NOMAS, and they would SHIT THEMSELVES if they found out someone thought of them as MRAs.”
Holly I am a New Breed of MRA’s. The MRA movement is not monolithic. There are MRA’s who concern themselves with Father’s rights such as Mr. Paul Elam. I love that guy. We are on the same page.
I am absolutely a solid MRA. I am an enthusiastic supporter of Fathers right’s. I love the Spearhead, Reddit, A voice for men, Anti Misandry, Mel Feit and the National Organization of men,MGTOW.
Holly if you put a room full of MRA’s together for an hour there will be more blood shed that unity. You know that. Mra’s are not unified.
Many MRA’s will criticize me. Some will agree. Some will agree with some of my opinions some will disagree.
I am an absolute hardcore MRA. It is my fucking life to be an MRA leader.
NOMAS absolutely an MRA organization. Read the website. These cats stand up for mens rights.
Some MRA’s are anti feminist some MRA’s are pro feminist pro gay in terms of asking for equality for all people.
H
Women here like Joanna NIO Magpie Holly Ozy Oam Joanna Redlocker Hellkell and all others tell me these cats are not cool dudes c’mon be honest?