If at first you don’t succeed, grope her
This might work, actually.
Say what you will about the dedicated PUAs (Pick-Up Artists) of the world: at least they sometimes actually talk to real human women. The guys in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, I’m not so sure about.
It’s kind of sad, sometimes, to read the plaintive requests for advice on Seddit (as it’s known) from college guys who’ve fixated on some girl in some class of theirs, and want desperately to learn the secret formula to get into her pants. These aren’t guys who’ve mastered the art of “negging” women with clever little mini-insults (a favorite PUA technique); these are guys who haven’t quite grasped that you have to actually talk to a woman in order to ask her out.
Take this query, recently posted there:
My suggestion?
Write “coffee?” on your forehead, and stand in front of her. Point at your forehead if necessary.
So, yeah, I’ve been banned from Seddit.
Look, I feel for the guy. I’ve been that guy.
But just think of it from the point of view of the girl. Some guy you’ve never spoken to, some guy who doesn’t know a thing about you other than you make him feel funny in his pants, approaches you out of the blue and … slips you a note?
But really, the problem there isn’t the note. Well, part of the problem is the note, But the main problem is that college dude has never spoken to her before. As anyone who has watched Seinfeld knows well, “coffee” means “sex.” Going up to a woman you’ve never spoken to before and asking her out is a bit like saying “hi, you make me feel funny in my pants. I would like to put my penis in you. Perhaps we could chat a bit first. Though, clearly, I don’t care what’s in your actual brain, because here I am asking you out based on nothing more than the fact that you cause that aforementioned feeling in my pants.”
Pro-tip for lonely guys: remember that women are actual human beings also.
Now, this poor Sedditor got some good basic advice from the crowd there, basically boiling down to: figure out an excuse to talk to her before class, and see how it goes.
Now, Seddit may be mildly useful in giving this sort of basic advice to the truly hapless. But it doesn’t seem to be very good at getting across the notion that women are human.
Indeed, there was a strikingly similar question posted in Seddit a couple of days ago: a guy who wanted to ask out the only girl in his engineering class. His post, in stark contrast with the note guy, was bristling with PUA acronyms and lingo: the girl was an “HB8” (Hot Babe that he rated an 8 of 10 on the hotness scale); he was on the lookout for IOSs (Indications of Interest) from her, and so on and so on.
But his strategy was strikingly similar to that of the AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) with the note: he was going to walk up to her after class and ask her out for dinner. But he was planning to add one more “technique” to his approach: “kino.” In PUA-speak, kino means touch.
So, yeah, that’s what he learned from all his study of advanced PUA-oloogy: just start touching her! Women are eager to jump into bed with guys who come up to them out of the blue and start groping them. (The post itself was deleted after it got linked to in the ShitRedditSays subreddit, so no link.)
Trouble is, this guy is not the only one getting the message that Pick-up artistry is all about invading a woman’s personal space and “escalating” until she literally fights you off or given is. This is, in fact, the basic message of the PUA who calls himself Gunwich – a man who not that long ago (allegedly) shot a woman I the face after she refused his advances.
And, yes, pressuring a woman until she gives in, or up, is one way of getting in her pants. It’s also, you know, rape.
In recent days a number of Sedditers have posted advice that is little more than a how-to of date rape. A number of instances were pointed out in ShitRedditSays, and were deleted by the Seddit moderators. It’s clear this is damage control; a number of regulars on ShitRedditSays have been banned from posting in Seddit – many of whom had actually never posted there in the first place.
Here’s a discussion of one copy-and pasted date rape guide that got deleted before anyone made a screencap.
The Seddit mods say this is “fringe” stuff that doesn’t reflect how most Sedditors think. Then how is it that some of the creepiest comments get dozens of upvotes? Take this Sedditor’s advice on how to get inside a woman’s house (and then her pants) that I managed to screencap before it was deleted:
Now, there is plenty of PUA material that is not rapey. Manipulative, sure. Dopey, absolutely. But not rapey. A good Pick-Up Artist, in theory at least, should be able to tell when a woman is interested and when she isn’t, and move on when she isn’t.
But it’s clear that many Sedditors aren’t learning that whole “if she’s not interested, move on” thing. They’re learning: “if she’s not interested, pressure her and manipulate her, and wear her down. And be sure to touch her. Sorry, “kino escalate.”
They’re not learning empathy. They’re learning stupid human tricks. And, worse, they’re learning to ignore a woman’s “no,” to treat it as what PUAs call LMR – that is, Last Minute Resistance. And that’s pretty much a formula for date rape.
Posted on September 2, 2011, in creepy, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, nice guys, PUA, rape, rapey, reddit, sexual harassment. Bookmark the permalink. 858 Comments.
Yay we are both strange!
Same PUA on the Magic websites once said “If she’s actually being forward and asking you out, she must be doing that to every guy she meets and a dirty slutty bag of venereal diseases. Real women want men to take the initiative.”
Of course, I’m the one who eventually got banned, and he’s still giving terrible advice to geeky boys.
Yeah, I think those 9 guys are usually imagining a conventionally hot girl (who they would love to hook up with) approaching them in an enjoyable way. When a woman they aren’t interested in tries it she gets a rather harsher reception (see: all jokes about horny fat/ugly/old women ever for starters.)
But that’s more or less the same thing guys face now. See all jokes and stories about ugly guys, nerds, creeps, losers etc. Are you saying the rejection women face is/would be worse? I’m not sure I believe that.
So now let’s talk about the reality where sexually confident women are branded whores and slut shamed.
That hasn’t been my experience, but that doesn’t mean it’s not true sometimes. It’s old-fashioned, puritanical attitudes like that which hurt everybody in the end.
The first guy was just socially awkward. The advice offered up went from bad to worse. Whatever happened to suggesting he get to class a few minutes early, and then perhaps ask the girl something about the assignment, working in an introduction? After a few brief chats, she’d probably be open to grabbing some coffee during the break.
Practicing “kino” is creepy, but a lot of people do this unconsciously. Men tend to shift into more aggressive postures when talking to women they are interested in, and they will often lightly touch a woman to gauge her reaction. I’m not defending the guys who do this in a pushy way, but I do recognize that some men incorporate this into flirtation without really thinking about it. The key seems to be reading other people and respecting boundaries. Don’t touch someone you haven’t established *any* intimacy with, and be ready to back the hell off if she stiffens up or frowns or steps backward.
shesaidwut: sounds like we basically agree. Reading the other person is important, and you’ll (hopefully) know when it’s time to take things further/make a move. It just sounded earlier like you were saying it’s basically wrong to ever escalate because of a chance the other person might get freaked out. But as I said, even if you happen to do something inappropriate (because we can’t perfectly predict someone’s reaction, especially when we don’t know them well), if you’re both mature adults you should be able to move past it.
I was going to say something to Johnny_B along the lines of, “You do realize that not every woman asking you out would be someone you find attractive, right?” but seems like everybody else has it covered.
Also glad that other commentators have expressed that women can haz social problems too. Go Team Manboobz!
Johnny_B,
Not at all. What I meant was that simply touching someone, when you have no indication they’d approve of being touched, is not good. And it’s certainly not good if the other person is actively showing that you are, in some way, bothering them. Or if you haven’t been talking long enough to gauge whether they like you.
So, you know, touch someone if they seem like they want to be touched, sure (and accept that you might get it wrong), but “Hey wanna have coffee sometime? *touch*” is just…not kosher.
We know you’re a-reality, Johnny. Here’s the difference: A guy will almost never be rejected because he is a guy asking women out (I say almost because there are lesbians.). A woman will be rejected for the very act of asking women out.
Women face rejection *FREQUENTLY* because of existing social rules; not being asked out? That’s rejection when you’re conditioned not to ask. And if you do ask, you can get rejected and treated like a freak for asking. Even the worst of it for men, Nerds, are ‘freaks’ for reasons not connected to asking women out. Creepy people are creepy in their *manner* of asking, not for doing it ever. Ugly guys are actually given substantial latitude, compared to ugly women. There’s a reason Romance with an ugly dude involves appreciating his inner qualities, and romance with an ugly woman involves the woman really being beautiful all along.
Want women with social problems? Manboobz got your back! ;p
Rutee: Again, that’s never been my experience (“A woman dare ask out a man? Scandalous! We must stone the harlot, brethren!”) but if attitudes like that do exist, I do think it’s a shame and wish they didn’t. I’d personally appreciate a woman who was interested in me being forthright about it, instead of playing coy and waiting for me to notice, then acting like I rejected her if I don’t.
Ugly guys are actually given substantial latitude, compared to ugly women. There’s a reason Romance with an ugly dude involves appreciating his inner qualities, and romance with an ugly woman involves the woman really being beautiful all along.
Heh, no argument there.
“And at the risk of repeating myself, I’ll say that this would become less of a problem if more women were willing to approach/initiate…
…I don’t know, I bet 9 guys out of 10 would be thrilled if women were more forward about their intentions. It’s nice to feel desired sometimes and not always playing the pursuer, you know?”
You know, one point that’s rarely examined in these types of discussions is that slut-shaming aside (and regardless of your personal experience Johnny_B the shaming of forward women is very real if often very subtle) quite a bit of mainstream conventional advice tells women that men don’t like to be pursued. More specifically, young women are told that men like “the chase” and don’t want anything that comes too easily.
We’re told to find subtle, i.e. “coy”, ways of making our interest known lest the man in question feel pressured or be put off. We’re told to be interested but never aggressive, to act a little shy; to indicate availability but fall just short of enthusiasm. And this advice is given out by a lot of women (see Susan Walsh-types) and men who are fairly successful with women and rarely consider shy men and their difficulties with social interaction.
Conventional, mainstream dating advice for women is heavy on the “learn to flirt without being too forward,” and a lot of the “coyness” derided by men comes from women who, you guessed it, are having their own issues learning how to approach, flirt subtly but definitively, and so forth.
Women have a hard time with this shit too.
“Women face rejection *FREQUENTLY* because of existing social rules; not being asked out? That’s rejection when you’re conditioned not to ask.”
This is the point that MRA types always gloss over when they express outrage that women have “all of the power” in the dating scene. In the most traditional setting, the guy chooses who he’s attracted to and who he wants to approach. Once a particular woman is deemed “dateable,” and approached, she is then allowed in kind to make HER choice about whether she wants to accept. BOTH parties are making a choice here. Yes, the woman’s choice happens when they are face to face. But as I’ve already said, the reason women are still cast as the ones who get pursued comes from very old fashioned social conditioning and it will take a major cultural shift to make that go away.
And try being a woman who goes out again and again and can’t even get a guy to look at her, let alone want to talk about her. She is also suffering from rejection and it hurts, too. My only point in saying this is to express that *everyone* goes through this emotional turmoil. This shouldn’t be a BS “battle of the sexes” issue where one gender is good and the other is bad. Because everyone experiences this, whether they are male or female.
Want to talk “to” her, not “about” her. Geez, what is my problem today?
Hmm, “coffee” to me implies at least the possibility that he’s aware the outcome may be him deciding there’s no there there and bailing. It’s not like he’s asking *n *n *l*v*t*r *t f**r *n th* m*rn*ng. I’m not clear about the distinction Bagelsan is drawing between giving her a note and asking. Is it that a note creates the paradox that in order to turn him down she has to extend their interaction whereas if he asks in person she can say “no” and that’ll be the end of it?
But I get the sense he’s really asking “how can I ask without running the risk of being turned down?”
Johnny:
I don’t see the parallel.
If David’s advice had been “well, you have to ask her, not just send out mind waves,” that would be equivalent to your useless business advice (though less useless, I suspect). But there is practical advice in the post. And the comments.
I feel bad pouncing here becaue you’re actually being reasonable about this, but this, yeesh.
Well … I’m fairly sure Johnny isn’t endorsing the cultural hangups.. And I don’t think an unattractive woman approaching should be any worse than an unattractive man approaching, though I am aware of the jokes. I’m certainly not going to throw up my hands and say “well, it doesn’t work now, clearly it’s impossible.” Bagelsan’s — whom I don’t mean to pick on, really! — is a decent response when men claim they wouldn’t mind being sexually harassed or sexually assaulted; less so when the claim is made about being non-threateningly hit on.
And I question her “conventionally.” I’ll respond better to an approach from an attractive-to-me woman than one from an unattractive-to-me woman, but (in theory) that doesn’t exactly correspond with “conventionally attractive.”
Honestly, I might be charmed by the coffee note–I think coffee only means “sex” if it’s at someone’s home; coffee at a cafe is a perfectly reasonable get-to-know-you scenario.
However, he needs to be prepared to sound reasonable when he’s at the cafe with her, and I’m not convinced he’ll be able to talk to her there if he can’t do it now.
Oh blockquotes. Why are you so hard to type. >.<
I wouldn’t mind a note as a first approach or a casual touch. People have different styles of communication. Some folks are shy, some are akward…and some are assholes. Perhaps I’m comfortable saying this because I am six feet tall and have taught self defense for 15 years. Generally, but not always, men have backed off when I’ve been clear about not being interested. (I’ve been lurking for some time….enjoying the posts)
“Well … I’m fairly sure Johnny isn’t endorsing the cultural hangups.”
In general during these conversations, endorsing them is not the problem. It’s the fact that they refuse to even acknowledge that it’s even part of the equation.
OMFG what friggin douchebags! I know that they are out there…I KNOW this because I have been at the tender mercies of 7 different men that I was either on a date with, dating or was considering dating (and one of them I was married to) that decided my No or my Stop was LMR and they just had to power through that to get to what they….I mean, I really wanted…because how could I possibly know what I want…I am just a girl and they are big strong men who have rights, you know. This sickens me. This is what’s wrong with the world….or at least one of the many things wrong with the world.
Thank you David for shining a light on these fuckers. I have “press this”d this and linked it from my page. Hope you don’t mind.
Lucky
‘And try being a woman who goes out again and again and can’t even get a guy to look at her, let alone want to talk to her. She is also suffering from rejection and it hurts, too. My only point in saying this is to express that *everyone* goes through this emotional turmoil. This shouldn’t be a BS “battle of the sexes” issue where one gender is good and the other is bad. Because everyone experiences this, whether they are male or female.’
This woman is me. Since I am 36 and very dominant, I am ignored or seen as horrifying.
Or, even better, I get hit on by the nastiest, dirtiest, slimiest, most toothless, strung out on heroin guys in the bar. Seriously. Last night I had not one but TWO drunk-ass heroin junkies try to buy me a drink/get my number. They kept trying to touch me and tell me how ‘beautiful’ I am. Ugh. Nice to know that these are, apparently, the highest quality men I can attract. /s
Yeah, not that many options for public socializing in this town that doesn’t involve alcohol and/or smug, misogynist, know-it-all ‘progressive/liberal’ doods.
Has anyone else guessed that Johnny B. is really Ion?
Yes.
Ah. Well, I’m not as clever as I thought I was. Wouldn’t be the first time, won’t be the last. :)
That’s a negative way of looking at it. Maybe it’s the others who are more clever than you thought they were? ;)
@blitzgal
“If you’re in the same class with someone who you would like to get to know better, you have the perfect opening lines to strike up a conversation with her.”
But saintly pictured one, since all women are individuals, any woman might find that behavior creepy. As the gang has recently discussed, the place or approach doesn’t matter. Any man can give off a “creepy” vibe.
———————–
@Bagelsan
“I think I’d be okay with inviting/getting invited to coffee, but verbally. Then it’s also easier to be clear that you honestly mean coffee the beverage-consumed-fully-clothed-in-a-public-cafe rather than “coffee.”
Who doesn’t clearly say, “they honestly mean coffee the beverage-consumed-fully-clothed-in-a-public-cafe?” Normally followed by, “I see you as an individual human with thoughts of your own.”
———————–
@shesaidwut
“To be honest, I don’t believe for a second that that’s down to someone being “clueless”. The kind of body language that comes with disinterest is often very loud. If a guy can’t realize that a girl leaning away from him means she’s not interested, he’s got other problems than simple cluelessness.”
But as some of you made clear “any” contact might make a person uncomfortable, the “leaning away” might just a contact phobia and not disinterest.
————————
@blitzgal
“And I’ll say that more women would be willing to approach/initiate if our culture did not have serious hangups about sexually confident women.”
Why do you “assume” it’s “culture?” Do you mean to tell me every culture, everywhere in history has somehow had the same “culture?” Quick everyone, go run to Wikipedia to find the exception to the rule to prove me wrong.
————————–
@Bagelsan
“Guys have a responsibility to educate themselves to a bare minimum of social competence before inflicting themselves on women.”
Luckily women are socially perfect and don’t “inflict” themselves upon men.
—————————
@blitzgal
“It will only help them in the end, viewing us as actual people who have all the same thoughts and feelings that they do.”
But feminism is all about viewing women as actual people for “not” having the same thoughts and feelings as each other.
—————————-
@shesaidwut
“Really, I see that whole “But I’m too afraid to do anything!” spiel a lot, and that’s ridiculous. If girls always react to you like you’re creepy, the problem is you, not them. If they don’t always react to you like you’re creepy, you shouldn’t always be too afraid.”
Yet you proudly comment on being “afraid” to make a move when you said, “I flirted with my husband a lot and I’m autistic and I have very low-confidence.” You flirted and waited for a man to go out on a limb because you feared rejection, then have the audacity to call men cowards. Then you go on to explain about men being creepy, always “creepy.” Maybe it’s not men at fault for being “creepy” but women at fault for being “bitchy.” Or is every situation always mens fault?
——————————
@blitzgal
“So now let’s talk about the reality where sexually confident women are branded whores and slut shamed.”
Sexually confident? Where’d that come from? I thought sex wasn’t “assumed” to be on the table? I thought it was a cup of java fully clothed in a public place? What’s the “confidence” all about. Are ya confident you’re good at sex, confident you can get some?
——————————-
@shesaidwut
“So, you know, touch someone if they seem like they want to be touched, sure (and accept that you might get it wrong), but “Hey wanna have coffee sometime? *touch*” is just…not kosher.”
Of course if you read the “signs” wrong you’ll be creepy for touching, or you might be considered “not interested” for not touching.
———————————-
@blitzgal
“This shouldn’t be a BS “battle of the sexes” issue where one gender is good and the other is bad.”
Women, not men, initiated the “battle of the sexes.” They continually up the ante as everyone of you does. They run to the State and use that violence politically, economically and socially to gain an advantage,(power).
This year in schools, the fruits of Title IX will be fully felt as any negative feeling any woman has towards any man will automatically be considered sexual harrassment that must be dealt with. Title IX not only has it’s own “police force” but if any woman lodges a complaint against any man whom she see’s as sexually harrasing another woman, (not even herself), that man will be placed in a kangaroo court where he isn’t permitted to confront his accuser, and the “preponderance of evidence” will be the word of the accuser he’s unable to confront. I dunno, do you think men as a whole, will love women as a whole for siding with the State?
NWOslave, did you miss the little “our” in the culture comment? Yes, yes you did, you fake engineer. Let’s add reading comprehension to the list of things your incapable of doing.
NWO didn’t single me out? I must be off my game!
I would totally say this to a dude. :D
@CB: Yes, I’ve thought he was Ion since he showed up.
@Doctress Ju’ulia
“This woman is me. Since I am 36 and very dominant, I am ignored or seen as horrifying.
Or, even better, I get hit on by the nastiest, dirtiest, slimiest, most toothless, strung out on heroin guys in the bar. Seriously. Last night I had not one but TWO drunk-ass heroin junkies try to buy me a drink/get my number. They kept trying to touch me and tell me how ‘beautiful’ I am. Ugh. Nice to know that these are, apparently, the highest quality men I can attract. /s”
“Dominant?” Is that the word feminists use these days? What’s even funnier yet is you bitchin about how the cream of the crop of men haven’t fallen at your feet. Particularly since on this very thread, the gangs goes out of it’s way bitch about men whom they assume want super-models to ask them out.
I love your description of any man who doesn’t meet your high standards as well. You must consider yourself a real prize, no wonder men can’t live up to your percieved greatness. Speaking of being “bought” drinks and such. How often have you “used” being a woman to gain all those “free” drinks, meals and what ever other goodies you can swindle out of men.
——————————
By the conversations on this blog, feminist blogs and the MSM comment sections in general, women seem to have gone the way of the prize found in a box of cracker jacks. Many years ago that prize was something pretty cool that you’d wanna hang onto, now a days, it’s crap that’s mass marketed as something valueable.
NWO, do you just see the words people write and then arrange them to suit your needs? Way to misrepresent.
“But as some of you made clear “any” contact might make a person uncomfortable, the “leaning away” might just a contact phobia and not disinterest.”
Uh…yeah, ’cause that’s likely. >.> I imagine most people with true contact phobias are going to be hard-pressed to be interested in anyone. But you’re also going to find that’s a very rare thing. Of course, if someone has a contact phobia than clearly your proximity has made them uncomfortable, so I’m not sure where you even think you’re going with that.
“Yet you proudly comment on being “afraid” to make a move when you said, “I flirted with my husband a lot and I’m autistic and I have very low-confidence.” You flirted and waited for a man to go out on a limb because you feared rejection, then have the audacity to call men cowards. Then you go on to explain about men being creepy, always “creepy.” Maybe it’s not men at fault for being “creepy” but women at fault for being “bitchy.” Or is every situation always mens fault?”
…I did what now? Um, no, I didn’t. I proudly pointed out that, despite being autistic and having low confidence, I did make a move. I flirted. A lot. Very, very obviously. Incidentally, we slept together. See how that works? I wanted to, I made it clear I wanted to, he wanted to too, and there you go.
Women are not bitchy simply because they don’t want to let you in their pants, dude. But I never said men were always creepy…I said if women always act like you’re creepy, it’s your fault, not theirs. Because, I reiterate, they’re not bitchy simply because they don’t want to let you in their pants. Finally, I also did not call all men cowards. I just don’t accept fear as an excuse. It’s not that these guys are afraid they’ll mess up. Most of them can’t be arsed to care what it takes to avoid messing up.
As made obvious by your assertion that a woman who isn’t interested in you, simply because you’re standing there mouth-breathing at her, is bitchy.
“Of course if you read the “signs” wrong you’ll be creepy for touching, or you might be considered “not interested” for not touching.”
Yeah, dude. Welcome to life. Social Awareness 101. You live and learn. I don’t want to hear any bullshit about it being hard, because you have no idea.
NWO, you really have some guts complaining to an autistic person about how hard it is to understand social norms.
Misogyny issues aside–which is hard to do, since the PUA community is rife with misogyny–a lot of PUA advice runs into one or both of the following problems:
1. It’s trying to teach advanced social skills to people who haven’t mastered basic social skills yet. With some social skills, you can fake it ’til you make it. Put in a little research and practice, and you can fake dressing well, projecting a decent amount of self-confidence, and knowing what to do on a standard date. It’s the more subtle things that are hard, if not impossible, to learn without real experience. A guy who has no idea how to make light chitchat to gauge a woman’s interest is not gonna be able to pull off a strange, transgressive approach, like handing her a written proposition, in a non-off-putting way.
2. It’s old and obvious. The idea of creating a false sense of intimacy by touching someone or repeating their name a lot is as old as Andrew Carnegie–which I know because, in my own awkward teenage years, I read How to Make Friends and Influence People in a desperate last-ditch effort to learn social skills.* The thing is, this advice has been around for generations. Everyone knows it. Trust me, when a woman is talking to a guy and he starts petting her arm, she knows what that means. If you do it before there’s any sense of mutual interest, it’s just going to come off as fake, pushy, and corny. You’ll look like a used-car salesman.
*It helped, actually, and I’d recommend it over PUA books and websites. The central and most useful piece of advice: people like talking about themselves and appreciate a listener, so stop trying to impress them with your awesomeness and just let them talk.
Johnny b said:
Sigh. Try reading a bit more carefully. My advice would be the same as the good basic advice he got from the people in Seddit: Come up with some excuse to talk to her before class, then ask her out. Nothing wrong with approaching people. But asking someone out before you’ve exchanged two words with them is weird and creepy.
My concern, though, is that if this guy sticks around Seddit, he may well never pick up the “empathy” thing, and will instead learn all sorts of tricks to get past women’s “resistance.” That was kind of the whole point of the piece.
Also, talking to someone for at least a few minutes before asking them out allows you to decide if you are interested in more than their looks. Or if they are actually a horrible person. Maybe this girl in the class is a Hitler-loving puppy killer. Can’t really know until you talk to her and see if she starts going on about how much she loves Hitler and hates puppies.
Also, there was a comment from Jules that was in moderation that talked a bit more about that rapey Second City monologue and gave some links. It’s back on the first page, so here’s a link:
http://manboobz.com/2011/09/02/is-seddit-teaching-date-rape/comment-page-1/#comment-56468
@shesaidwut
“I did what now? Um, no, I didn’t. I proudly pointed out that, despite being autistic and having low confidence, I did make a move. I flirted. A lot. Very, very obviously.”
Bullshit. “Flirting” is not making a move, not even close. The difference is easy to see. “Flirting,” crudely put, is simply letting others/someone know you’re on the market. The “other party,” has to “actively” approach and risk rejection, mockery, (see manboobz crew), perhaps a bit of laughter by the woman and her friends if he misread the signs, hell, he might even be considered creepy. Or in the case of the prize catch Doctress Ju’ulia, be called the nastiest, dirtiest, slimiest, most toothless, strung out on heroin guys in the bar, as she sucks down free drinks.
NWO, they TRIED to buy her drinks, not that they did. Learn to read.
Do you think women should take whatever attention is offered? Why is ok for men to have standards but not women?
CB: The, “Repeating myself” was a bit of a tip-off, since Johnny hasn’t been talking about women being aggressive, at least not where I can see it.
At that point it was, “who else talked about that”, and then the style was familiar.
Wow… this gets NWO’s goat. I think it strikes a nerve.
NWO: Doctress Ju’ulia said that they ‘tried’ to buy her drinks – indicating to me that she did not ‘suck down free drinks.’ Aou’re being obtuse. Again. Shocking, I’m sure.
Oh man. Oh man. I know it’s cruel, but if he’s here, I have to do it…
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Science
Evolution is impossible, because otherwise we’d be able to watch dogs evolve into super-dogs. Unless anyone can produce evidence of dogs with super-powers, evolution is a myth.
Female animals cannot feed themselves and rely on males to support them. Even in cases where this seems untrue, the males are still tougher. For example, female lions do all the hunting in the pride, but if they come across a really tough enemy, like a hyena, they run and get the male lion to fight for them.
Mathematics
Feminists claim that one in four women is raped in college. But since college lasts for four years, you have to multiply that by four. Therefore, feminists are really saying that 100% of women are raped in college, which is obviously untrue, not to mention proof that women are bad at math.
Medicine
Children are lined up and injected with a dangerous chemical called flouride to make them stupid.
Education
Men are legally barred from working as teachers because people think they’ll molest children. There are no male teachers in the U.S.
Most colleges are cutting their science and engineering programs to make room for liberal arts classes for feeble-minded women. For example, University of California schools have gotten rid of all their engineering majors and replaced them with women’s studies and gender studies.
Linguistics
The word “suffrage” is derived from the verb “to suffer,” because voting is hard.
Spanish and Russian use the same alphabet. The Russians just have funny handwriting.
Literature
The classical Greek play The Bacchae is a celebration of the roving lesbian gang that murdered the musician Orpheus. It is based on a true story.
The musical Chicago is a polemic about how men should be shot to death. It was written by a female college student last year.
Law
All U.S. law, from the Constitution down, has been supplanted by the extremely powerful Title IX, a law requiring that all educational, government, and private institutions be 100% female.
Government
Everyone takes orders from the U.N. and the Jews.
Pedophilia
Girls are never the victims of child molestation, only boys. Therefore, all child molesters are either women or gay.
All gay people are child molesters.
Prepubescent girls playing at the beach in swimsuits desperately want to have sex with middle-aged milking-machine technicians.
—
Anyone got any more?
“Bullshit. “Flirting” is not making a move, not even close. The difference is easy to see. “Flirting,” crudely put, is simply letting others/someone know you’re on the market. The “other party,” has to “actively” approach and risk rejection, mockery, (see manboobz crew), perhaps a bit of laughter by the woman and her friends if he misread the signs, hell, he might even be considered creepy. Or in the case of the prize catch Doctress Ju’ulia, be called the nastiest, dirtiest, slimiest, most toothless, strung out on heroin guys in the bar, as she sucks down free drinks.”
So, what, were you there with a camera or something? You know exactly what happened? No, you don’t. I initiated the flirting. Not him, me. *I* was the one at risk of rejection because I was the one who first showed interest.
Are you getting any of this or is it bypassing that hollow in your skull where your brain is supposed to be? The night we met, my husband did *not* make the first move. I did. Making a move is not about touching or kissing. It’s about expressing interest.
P.S. Women get rejected, laughed at, and called creepy, too. Sometimes even because they’re being creepy.
“NWO, you really have some guts complaining to an autistic person about how hard it is to understand social norms.”
I know, right? If I can learn, he really ought to be able to.
Thanks David!
@hellkell
“NWO, they TRIED to buy her drinks, not that they did. Learn to read.”
Ahh, so the “doctress” only accepts free drinks from men that meet her high standards? You can always tell a lady of quality by the men she accepts freebies from! My empathy just runeth over for her. I can’t imagine how many bars she had to visit before she found a man she deemed worthy enough to buy her stuff. Misogyny, it’s just ever so rampant!
shaenon: I’m torn between laughing my ass off and crying at the state of education in this country.
NWO is once again activating his LogicShield. Motto: I reject common reality and substitute my own paranoid ravings!
Special for NWO:
So, according to NWOslave, women aren’t allowed to accept free drinks from other guys, but then they’re not allowed to not accept them. Good to know.
I mean seriously. How can any of you claim to have a shred of dignity while defending the “doctress?” She’s actually complaining that the men who buy her free stuff are unacceptably beneath her.
Now ride in majestically upon your great stead Pecunium, and defend the “honor” of the fair maiden Doctress Ju’ulia!
Let me get this straight: men are allowed to call women they consider ugly every single name in the book, insult them, or even assault them for having the nerve to encroach on their Sacred Manly Personal Space ™ – or even exist. But women are not allowed to have any standards at all and should be grateful for any male attention at all. Wow, look at those goalposts dance!
Oh no! I’ve spelled “stead” instead of “steed.” The great knight Pecunium has thusly defeated me before the battle even began.
“She’s actually complaining that the men who buy her free stuff are unacceptably beneath her.”
Yeah, because they’re expecting sex from her for the price of a drink. And she doesn’t want to have sex with them. What is it you’re outraged about exactly?
Ride my great stead? Am I supposed to go out and straddle the ranch and wait for a landslide to move me to town?
An academic study of effectiveness of various pick up attempts!
http://www.springerlink.com/content/72885788164pt1x7/
NWO. I didn’t defeat you.
The swiss-cheese you walk on for feet, from how often you’ve shot yourself in them, did you in long ago.
Shaennon summed it up. You are no Paul Simon, to say, “My lack of education hasn’t hurt me none”, because you are an ignorant know-nothing, and proud of it.
You think ALL CAPS in a document is needed to make it legally binding; and that this is, “eight grade civics” stuff. You believe there is no proof for evolution.
You think feminism is a communist conspiracy run by the Rothchilds [sic] and funded through the UN.
I don’t have to defeat you. All one need do is wait for you to explain yourself, and the victory falls in our lap.
@KathleenB
“Let me get this straight: men are allowed to call women they consider ugly every single name in the book, insult them, or even assault them for having the nerve to encroach on their Sacred Manly Personal Space ™ – or even exist. But women are not allowed to have any standards at all and should be grateful for any male attention at all. Wow, look at those goalposts dance!”
No, no, no princess. Anything negative a man says about a woman is misogyny. I just mock the lying mockers is all. Everyone here jumped on the old men want only super-models to ask them out assumption, and that’s what their real bitch is all about. And everyone here jumps to defend Doctress Ju’ulia, who actually said she considered the “qualty” of men offering her “free stuff” beneath her. You’ve defended the “fact” of what she said, because she’s a woman. There can be no other reason. And you vilify men on an “assumption” because they’re men. There can be no other reason.
@Pecunium
Oh no, sick, spelled [sic] in brackets no less. Truely Sir Pecunium, your Knighthood is well deserved.
NWOslave, would you accept free drinks from two disgusting women strung out on heroin that might very well think your acceptance of said drinks was an acceptance to have sex with them?
Oh, my dear boy… sic, in brackets, is Latin for, “this mistake is in the original”
The Rothschillds is the wealthy family of French Vinters.
The Rothchilds [sic] is the group you accuse of funding international feminism.
Do try to keep them straight.
He just might, Amnesia.
I just mock the lying mockers is all.
He’s so META!!
NWO: NOT a princess, how many times do I have to say that? Neither I nor my husband fight heavy, so we can’t go for Crown, and thus can be neither Sovereigns nor Heirs. And everything I say is bouncing off your RealityShield anyway so here’s an video about Stephen King references in the last episode of Haven:
http://www.syfy.com/haven/stephenking/17
shaenon, excellent summary of the Book of Learnin!
I only wish I had been educated that good.
Sorry, that goodly.
@Amnesia
“NWOslave, would you accept free drinks from two disgusting women strung out on heroin that might very well think your acceptance of said drinks was an acceptance to have sex with them?”
They weren’t just ordinary “crack addicts” my dear, in fact, they were the nastiest, dirtiest, slimiest, most toothless, strung out on heroin guys in the bar.
Now I personally wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between a heroin addict, crack addict or just someone whose drunk, but that’s me. I lack the social graces to determine such. But we have the good Doctress Ju’ulia’s word of honor that that’s exactly what those men were.
But keep defending her, it shows exactly the mettle of the modern day woman. I wonder if you’d defend a man who said such things about women?