Do MGTOWers just want to cuddle? (Possibly with robots?)
MGTOW nightmare: Sexy robot ladies turn out to be stuck-up bitches.
Are MGTOWers all a bunch of closet romantics? In a recent discussion of some research which concluded that men value kissing and cuddling more than women in long-term relationships, a number of the regulars on MGTOWforums.com confessed that they … actually missed the affections of women.
BeijaFlor reported
I’ve gotten along for decades without sex OR cuddling. And I miss the cuddling, the snuggly affectionate feel of a loving partner, FAR more than I miss the sex. That’s one reason why I don’t call the call-girls; all they offer is the sex.
Golem added:
I’m going to have to agree with the touch thing, too. Hell, I can cut my own hair, but I’ll still drop the cash to have it done with a wash and a scalp massage just for the contact.
That’s actually just really … sad.
Even Nightstorm2516 — the legendary theorist of the Mousetrap Vagina – offered a poignant confession of his own:
I don’t know anyone elses reasoning for cuddling over sex but my own personal reason would be a huge deprivation in my life of affection. I get zero from women so thats a no-go for me. My male friends think hugging is gay via society programming so men show affection by “bumping fists” and “being cool”. My dad IS anti-affection. My mom showed me some affection, but she was so busy working to the bones, I don’t think I ever got enough. My sister and brother never showed me any love.
I think I value cuddling just because its something I never got to do. 26 Years without affection.. dam thats a long time.
That’s actually sort of heartbreaking – at least until I remember that this is the same guy who once argued that vaginas were like strange venom-injecting mousetraps:
This poison … creeps into the male brain and literally makes him stupid, it shuts down his intellect, and activates all his hormones for more pussy. She’s got the bastard. Now she can slowly but surely take all his wealth and keep pumping more poison into him.
It sucks – I mean really, genuinely sucks — that you got no affection from your parents, dude. But if you view women as monsters secretly plotting to entrap you with their vagina-poison, you’re not likely to get a lot of affection from them.
If you want to live a life that has more to it than bitterness and misery, get yourself off of MGTOWforums.com and find a good therapist.
And whatever you do, don’t listen to avoidwoman, MGTOWforums’ budding futurist, who thinks he’s got a woman-free solution to the affection deficit: perfectly realistic robogirls, which he predicts will be here in 2030. (Let’s just hope they’re a bit more reliable than the Cherry 2000 model.)
Yep, we’re back to the topic of sexy robot ladies.
In several comments in the thread, starting with this one, avoidwomen explained his waiting game:
I personally don’t even care for sex and I never want it. I would love romance, such as cuddling and kissing but not with human women, only women substitutes! …
I will get the chance to cuddle as much as I want by 2030 with robogirls and probably earlier when VR technology becomes advanced enough for the simulation to feel realistic. …
The few times I got the chance to be romantic with women, I really enjoyed it and never thought of going “further” or being “sexual” whatsoever. …
Then we got a reminder of just why he’s not getting affection from real, live human women:
Nowdays I just avoid women like the snakes they are! …
I am no white knight in real life, I will not protect a woman. But when VR and robogirls come, I will hold them in my arms. My robogirl will protect me outside the house and inside the house, I will cuddle and hold her. :)
Someday, his robotic princess will come.
Posted on August 30, 2011, in evil women, MGTOW, MGTOW paradox, misogyny, nightstorm, sex, sexy robot ladies, vaginas, white knights. Bookmark the permalink. 459 Comments.
I don’t see this as “aww, poor woogies.” I just think it’s another thing they want women to give them with no reciprocation and no respect.
All they’ve done here is increase the list to “sleep with us, raise our kids (or abruptly give up all interest in the kids, depending what we want), keep our houses, treat us like superior beings, and give us snuggly wugglies.”
“I want cake. But I do not want to have to gather the ingredients, bake the cake, frost it or do anything at all to obtain the cake. Instead, I will just whine I do not have cake.”
Yeah therapy might help with these guys.
O_O
WHY AM I IN MODERATION *cries*
….at least my new gravatar is pretty :D
One thing I don’t get is that if these guys are such obvious losers, wouldn’t the fact that they want robot girlfriends and to avoid actual women be actually a good thing? So why mock them for it?
btw, Holly and Elizabeth – I’m enlightened. Next time I hear a woman saying she misses the physical affection from a relationship, I’ll just tell her she’s “whining” and “obviously wants something from men with no reciprocation or respect”.
God, and you accuse others of having no empathy. You are such a mirror image of MRAs it’s almost funny.
It is kind of a good thing, Johnny B. Except that:
A) Robot girlfriends that would satisfy them don’t exist (and probably never will, because being satisfied doesn’t seem to be in most of these guy’s emotional vocabularies), so this talk is really just about intensifying their bitterness against actual women
and
B) Even if it would be doing us a favor, it’s still ridiculous.
Johnny – If the woman doesn’t put any affection into the relationship, then I agree. (And with some individual women, this is a valid criticism.)
But more often, women (and some men!) are “whining” because they’re putting a lot of energy in and not getting anything out. That’s a valid concern and a different thing from “I want to be hugged and told I’m special just because I went to all the trouble of existing.”
That’s a valid concern and a different thing from “I want to be hugged and told I’m special just because I went to all the trouble of existing.”
OK, except I didn’t see that being said at all, or even implied, in the first 3 quotes posted by David. Why did you get the impression that they’d be completely unwilling to reciprocate? I’m not being glib, I actually read those threads and although some of the comments were pretty disgusting, I didn’t see the “I want to be hugged and not do anything in return” vibe. All I got was “I miss hugging”.
Aside from being stupid and ridiculous, and therefore inherently mockworthy?
No, because them avoiding women because they’re terrible people isn’t actually a good thing. It’s a less bad thing than them bothering women. A *Good thing* would be them not being horrible people.
You’re such an unoriginal troll. Now you’re doing the “YOU’RE JUST AS BAD AS THEM” malarkey? After the “OH CRUCIFY ME FOR DISAGREEING WITH YOU” saw? God, what’s next? I’m not sure whether to take bets on it, because it’ll alter the outcome for us to start making predictions on your next cliche’d troll-ism, but damned if I don’t want to.
We’re not mocking them for wanting affection, we’re mocking them for hating women so much that they think robogirls that will probably never exist are going to solve their problems. THAT is mock-worthy.
Of course you didn’t. You don’t pay attention to anyone you claim to pay attention to. Protip: Holly was not just looking at the quotes on this page.
Let’s see if you can connect the dots yourself. My money’s on no.
“I’m not sure whether to take bets on it, because it’ll alter the outcome for us to start making predictions on your next cliche’d troll-ism, but damned if I don’t want to.”
What the hell, next up is “you’re not being civil.”
This is why I find it funny that the PUAs are so popular, since their system is generally all about getting to sex as quickly as possible, shutting down a lot of opportunities for affectionate relationships in the process. If what they miss is cuddles and affection, they should really, REALLY look at my “game without hate” thread because my “system” definitely leads to large volumes of hugs, head-scritches, back rubs, and so on.
I got “I want to be hugged and not do anything in return” from the fact that they want robots to do it. Unless you think they’re really looking forward to loving those robots back and treating them right.
“A) Robot girlfriends that would satisfy them don’t exist (and probably never will)”
People who talk about robot partners have very little imagination.
Love, affection, partnership, trust, encouragement, compassion, etc. all manifest in the human MIND. There is no need for a physical object, such as a robot (or a physical person) to fulfil a psychological need.
Computer-brain interface is what is called for. Interactions with virtual partners WILL be possible, soon. When this happens, I believe WOMEN will be the first to take advantage of this life-altering technology. Soon after (when the technology is mature enough to produce images that are realistic enough so that little imagination is needed) men will follow.
Men and women will finally be rid of each other forever.
Rutee: Coming from such a cliched, one-note cartoon feminist as yourself, those accusations are downright hilarious.
Orion, can you provide a link to that thread? I’d like to read it. :)
“I know you are, but what am I”? Really? Damn, missed my guess. Ah well!
Zarat, that’s just creepy. I can respect wanting no human interaction yourself, but to say that your dream is for society to crumble, and for every person to just be in an individual world with no interaction with anything but a simulacrum of a person is just… depressing, I guess.
I got “I want to be hugged and not do anything in return” from the fact that they want robots to do it. Unless you think they’re really looking forward to loving those robots back and treating them right.
Sounds like you’re conflating all the posts as if they were being said by the same person. Only one of them actually talked about the robot thing.
Besides, I’d love my robot. I’d give her an oil bath daily and change her batteries and upgrade her firmware and shine her up with an old piece of cloth and then she’d say “oh, you missed a spot” and we’d both laugh… and then I’d grow old and die and she would have to leave and make her way alone in the world. But she’d be ready. Yeah, she’d be ready.
““I know you are, but what am I”? Really? Damn, missed my guess. Ah well!”
No comment. I’ve had better arguments with my 12-year old cousin.
I’m not surprised by that research. If all they cared about was sex, the Fleshlight or blowup dolls already exists. They wouldn’t need to pine for sexbots. You only need human substitutes with AI if you need to fulfill a need for some intimacy, no matter how screwed up it is that you’re trying to fulfill that only by going for the physical aspect of intimacy and not the psychological one.
I’m surprised your 12 year old cousin didn’t outwit you either.
But seriously, you were treated with substance once, even by me. You put on a facade of caring about reality, and evidence, so you were engaged seriously, if caustically. You proved you can’t handle substance, reacting to evidentiary support with baseless assertions of your rightness. Knowing you had nothing to say to the evidence, you whinged, because reality didn’t support your positions; the best you could do was whine about that causticness. You insisted we must just be making stuff up, and had not one thing to say about the data. Don’t be surprised if you’re treated as aught but a fool; you’ve demonstrated nothing else.
But hey, where would the world be without fools like you serving as an object lesson of the dunning-kruger effect?
Oh Johnny B: The difference between this:
Next time I hear a woman saying she misses the physical affection from a relationship, I’ll just tell her she’s “whining” and “obviously wants something from men with no reciprocation or respect”.
and this:
I think I value cuddling just because its something I never got to do. 26 Years without affection.. dam thats a long time.
Is that the latter is because he thinks the people whom he wants to cuddle him, are evil, loathesome, and worthy of nothing but his scorn.
So the comment that people he hates, aren’t giving him the cuddle-wuddles, isn’t something which really deserves empathy. If he wasn’t full of hatred and bile, then I’d have some sympathy.
But the reason he’s sleeping in an empty bed is because he intentionally made it so.
Am I the only one who feels really bad for these guys? I mean, they’re misogynists, yes, but lonely sucks. I know what it’s like to crave friendly human touch and be completely unable to get it without seeming weird or creepy, to snuggle a pillow and pretend as hard as you can that it’s a human being, and I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy.
The only people their GTOW punishes is themselves.
No, but we were both definitely above your level.
That is so hilariously dishonest it actually gave me a chuckle, thanks. I gave my views, same as everyone else, only mine were met with insults and abuse by you and the gang. Your entire arguing strategy is basically the equivalent of a group of baboons howling and flinging their crap at anyone perceived as an intruder, then congratulating each other when the intruder has been driven away. But I’m not about to rehash everything now, as everyone can see and judge for themselves, even if they won’t admit it out loud for fear of being ostracized from the “Manboobz family”.
And where would you be without your buddies backing you up and helping you shout down the opposition? Well, you’d have to leave manboobz for that and that’s not gonna happen too soon, is it.
Am I the only one who feels really bad for these guys? I mean, they’re misogynists, yes, but lonely sucks. I know what it’s like to crave friendly human touch and be completely unable to get it without seeming weird or creepy, to snuggle a pillow and pretend as hard as you can that it’s a human being, and I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy.
I always thought that given his posts, Ozymandias was one of the smarter/better-adjusted/more empathetic folks here. Seems I’m being proven right.
Not really Johnny-they are complaining about having no one to cuddle while at the same time bashing the people they would cuddle with. It is not unreasonable to ask that someone not bash you when they ask you for something.
It waxes and wanes. I’m generally pushed to pity when they pontificate on the meaning of love. That truly breaks my heart, that they’re so broken as to talk about love as if it can’t exist, to tell themselves that it’s just an illusion to salve their loneliness. I want to weep for them., and sometimes do. More than that, I want to shake them, to tell them they’re wrong, that love exists, that it doesn’t have to be that way.
Juxtaposing it all with the hateful bile is extremely confusing. Sometimes, irritation crowds out my empathy, because there’s only so much tolerance I have for being told I’m the source of their lovelessness. Sometimes, and especially when love is itself said to not exist,I’m just… sad.
Are you being compelled to post here? Is someone holding your goldfish hostage or something? I don’t understand.
Johnny_B, if the manboobz crew are so mean and awful to you, get the fuck on. Seriously. Kick rocks.
Nobody is interested in whether or not we’re being nice enough while we mock misogyny and your constant, whining, refrain about bullying and so forth -especially when you refuse to address the substantive arguments that rebut your assertions- is not only misappropriated, it’s tedious as shit.
Is it just me, or does avoidwomen sound like an asexual who is not aromantic? He never wants sex ever and is not interested in it…but he wants romance.
Yeah though, wanting affection from a group of people you clearly despise just makes me whip out the smallest violin…
You gave your unsubstantiated, evidenceless opinion, and maintained it in the face of actual data demonstrating it wasn’t the case. I am not nice, even when engaging someone seriously, but I can at least support a truth claim. You are, at best, one of those empty headed little twits that thinks all opinions are equal, even when one has evidentiary support and the other… does not.
No, my arguing style is dataspam and insults; others were more conciliatory in tone but unsurprisingly did not lend your contra-reality beliefs meaningful support. You proved you don’t care about reality by focusing only on the insults, even though you were earning them by being so willfully ignorant.
I’d imagine it’s where I was for a couple of years, trying and sometimes succeeding to expand atheism by helping it be inclusive of others. Imagining an echo chamber where none exists is so passe
As for the original post, I get sad when I hear anyone describe how lonely they are and especially how they’re suffering with an absence of touch. Touch is important and, if not exactly underrated, it can be under appreciated. It’s easy to discount its significance when you have an abudance. Its absence can wear on you to the point of distraction when you do not. I’ve always referred to it as being “flesh-starved”.
I think Rutee and Pecunium, however, have “hit the nail on the button” as Meller would say. Demonizing and dehumanizing the very people you want to cuddle with is not only incredibly fucked up, but a huge disconnect from reality. Where are you, that you cannot figure out that your chances of having a woman who wants to cuddle with you will increase exponentially when you stop hating women.
I mean, just look at Zarat. By his own account he waited until after he’d met and married a woman who loved him to decide that women -as, you know, a group- are inherently defective. Zarat, have you told your wife, this woman who loves you and is raising sons with you, that you long for the day when you can have a digital version of her that has no agency?
And, once again, please speak for yourself and stop projecting your bullshit onto the rest of humanity. I have no desire to live in a world seperate from men. That sounds like a nightmare.
@ David Futrelle
I’ve read a lot of Nightstorm2516’s posts and, from what I understand, this kid has had a particularly shitty time as of late, if not for his entire life. I’m not going into details because I think that the things he has posted and shared about his personal life on MGTOW forums belong on MGTOW forums. He’s trying to get his life in order and learning to start looking out for himself instead of letting other people take advantage of him. Mousetrap Vagina theory aside, I really don’t think that:
“I don’t know anyone elses reasoning for cuddling over sex but my own personal reason would be a huge deprivation in my life of affection. I get zero from women so thats a no-go for me. My male friends think hugging is gay via society programming so men show affection by “bumping fists” and “being cool”. My dad IS anti-affection. My mom showed me some affection, but she was so busy working to the bones, I don’t think I ever got enough. My sister and brother never showed me any love.
I think I value cuddling just because its something I never got to do. 26 Years without affection.. dam thats a long time.”
has anything to do with “Mocking Misogyny” or that you have any business posting this up here on your blog and I request that you kindly edit your post so that the above quotation is removed.
@Johnny B: All I got was “I miss hugging”.
CONTEXT! Remember the context.
That’s why David supplied the poison vagina comment. And the fact that these are from MGTOW — they gave up teh evil wimminz, remember!
So, yes, in that context, it’s impossible to think that they are willing to put anything into a relationship with an actual human woman — and would prefer cuddlebots.
Makes me wonder what came first, the hatred or the loneliness? Probably depends on the individual. In my experience it was loneliness combined with lack of friendly contact, and the result was not really hatred, rather something like alienation. It stopped when I got more superficial friendly contact, though the loneliness remains. If some things happened differently, I might have well ended up in their place, so I feel their pain, and it hurts.
Orion,
well some people really only want to get laid quickly, and for the rest the idea is, I think, that sexual attraction is necessary for an affectionate non-family relationship between members of the respectively appropriate sex. By determining the presence of this attraction as quickly as possible, you can spend your time on those people where a relationship is more likely to be successful. That’s my understanding of the theory behind it at least.
Johnny– David’s original post did a fine job of expressing sympathy for these guys’ loneliness while at the same time pointing out that their attitudes toward women make their complaints somewhat less than endearing, not to mention counterproductive.
If I heard a woman complaining that men don’t hug and cuddle her enough, but also that she thinks men are dangerous monsters who inject poison through their penises, I’d have the same problem feeling sorry for her situation.
@Ozy – “The only people their GTOW punishes is themselves.”
That is so very true.
It’s also worth noting that the original thread isn’t all men talking wistfully about cuddling. There’s still plenty of the usual:
Men want younger and hotter women not older. Thats why.
Sex important to women? Only if you are an alpha “bad boy” who can give her gina tingles or you are a rich sucker overpaying for her used up pussy.
A woman views sex as leverage and your wallet as an oil field with her name on it.No man escapes this truth.
Well it is very strange that only few notice that cuddling is preliminary to sex, akin to Pavlov’s dog salivating at the prospect of a cookie. If cuddling wouldn’t had led to coitus in your past, would you miss it ? Like cuddling and blue balls, miss it much ? …Hence the carrot of commitment is the cookie of Pavlov’s dog and when the cookie jar is empty like in marriage, sex nearly stops with the husband.
Regrettably the a lot of the past and 99.99998% of current and the totality of the next generation of women are being raised instead to rip a man off as ruthlessly and legally as possible.A con artist makes for a poor life partner ,but the logical understanding that modern women are unfit for commitment doesn’t tame the desire any more than the logical realization by a shipwrecked sailor that drinking saltwater is deadly will cure his thirst.
Awwww, poor sweethearts, why don’t women want to snuggle and hug them? (And good LORD, guys, for the last time, nobody wants your damn money! Sheesh!)
In all seriousness, Qwert, if Nightstorm really is a troubled person working through serious problems, he needs to stop associating with people who think and feel like this. The very next post after his comment about how he’s never gotten enough physical affection is this:
By the stories and experiences taking female cuddling as gestures of affection is akin to believe boa constrictors strike their prey to lighten it’s day.
Yeah, that’s the kind of feedback that’ll help a guy work through his problems in a healthy way.
“Zarat, that’s just creepy. I can respect wanting no human interaction yourself, but to say that your dream is for society to crumble, and for every person to just be in an individual world with no interaction with anything but a simulacrum of a person is just… depressing, I guess.”
Society will not crumble. Men will interract with each other, both at work and in social settings. Men will be happier and more productive. Male society will work splendidly. We will live without fear. We will live without persecution. We will live in liberty.
What women do with women’s society, is women’s business.
“Awwww, poor sweethearts, why don’t women want to snuggle and hug them? (And good LORD, guys, for the last time, nobody wants your damn money! Sheesh!)”
Yeah, the money thing is yet another example of their confirmation bias when it comes to all of this “battle of the sexes” bullshit. I know three women who are supporting husbands who flat out refuse to even look for work, let alone hold on to a job for more than a few months at a time. The economy is bad, but one of them will get a low income job and then quit a few weeks later because it was “boring” or “he didn’t like it.” In the meantime she has two jobs to support the household. If I held the same myopic view of humanity as these MRAs and MGTOW-ers I would take these examples as proof that all men are like this. But I know this simply isn’t the case.
@ shaenon
“In all seriousness, Qwert, if Nightstorm really is a troubled person working through serious problems, he needs to stop associating with people who think and feel like this.”
For certain he’s got a lot of issues to deal with, and a lot of misplaced anger. He’s clearly got a lot to learn, and I admit, that MGTOW forums is not a very a healthy place to be for him right now. In all honesty I’m actually a bit worried about him. I’m no therapist so I wouldn’t know what to suggest. In fairness to David he did express some sympathy for him, genuine of otherwise.
Men and women will finally be rid of each other forever.
I am sure your wife also anticipates this.
Every time I think AntZ can’t make my brain flat-line any harder, he outdoes himself. Has he always been like this, or has it been a progressive, learn-as-he-goes sort of thing?
@AntZ
…have you ever had female friends?
I’m serious. I don’t know what kind of social circles you you run in, but in all of mine men and women get along just fine. They have conversations. They go bowling. They work together. Regardless of your feelings on sex and romantic relationships with women, the idea of gender-segregating friendships and work relationships it very alien to any reality I know.
Has he always been like this, or has it been a progressive, learn-as-he-goes sort of thing?
I think he’s a troll-bot.
I understand if it is just a guy who is socially awkward. I do not understand if the guy hates all women and thinks we suck.
Antz might be misguided when it comes to actual societal trends, but he could sure as hell write some great sci-fi novels.
Also, Antz, what do you think of my assertion that there are *already* people of both genders who spend a great deal of time in elaborately constructed fantasy worlds? They’re called “authors”, “bloggers”, and “cosplayers”. You could have the life of your dreams RIGHT NOW!
I’m not the one who brought it up again, you can thank Rutee for that. But I do agree that it’s tedious.
The “not addressing the argument” charges are specious at best. Nobody can make and support an argument while being shouted down by a gang of bullies.
Lots of people can do that, Johnny B! You just need a tougher hide…
This is one of the few posts I’ve seen that actually makes me feel genuinely sorry for MRAs. I believe that a lot of them had a fucked up childhood and then came into adulthood with a significant disadvantage in terms of relating to women/people in general. Since they turn a lot of people off, they as adults still can’t get the love they crave, but they see “everyone else” (not really, but that’s their perception) getting it, so they feel bitter and alienated and thus have even more of a disadvantage.
Of course, we as adults still have to make good choices even if our families didn’t, so I’m not excusing how nasty and full of bile they are. Also, a bit of self-awareness might help them grasp that they are NOT entitled to have a perfect, beautiful mommy-girlfriend swoop in and give them unconditional love, because the women they want this kind of thing from are also people with their own problems and needs. As a woman, I’ve totally wanted an amazing guy to come in and rescue me from all my worries and love me no matter how bitter I am. As I’ve matured, though, I’ve realized that this person doesn’t exist, and I really don’t mind that now. I’d rather have a connection with my partner, who is a real person and has his own needs, than with a robo-man slotted to fill a Prince Charming fantasy.
Therapy would maybe help these guys. What might be even better would be getting to really know people and understanding just how needy we all are, rather than wasting time trying to find that magical person or robot who will finally round out their world and satisfy their every desire.
“@AntZ …have you ever had female friends?”
Most of my friends used to be female. I rarely associate with them now. The imbalance in power (law enforcement/civil court/criminal court) increasingly leads prudent men to avoid casual contact with women.
I have lived a long and fulfilling life, and have had mostly positive experiences with women.
I have two boys, 7 month and 7 year old. I witnessed the horrifying dehumanization that K-12 public schools inflict on boys. My son is routinely humiliated and denigrated by the feminist public school system. This convinced me that men and women can never share the same society.
I asked for help from “feministe” regarding the New York anti-boy dehumanization campaign back in October 2010. Their indifference to the suffering of boys led me to a moderate men’s rights group:
http://www.pellebilling.com/2010/11/misandry-hits-ny/
I was an idiot, criticizing my fellow MRA’s and begging for the help of feminists:
“Jim, I guess what I am trying to say is that I wish you had not used the term “scalded hogs.” If men’s sites cannot become less hostile to women, feminists will never visit. And, without the help of feminism, masculism is going nowhere.”
I have come a long way since then. I now know that men are fighting for the lives of our boys. I know that if we fail, my sons will grow into a life of indentured servitude, where men are regarded as little more than beasts who live for the utlity of women.
Why do you ask? No one’s individual story matters. The only story that matters is told in the courts and in the legislature. Why not crow of your countless victories there, feminist?
Johnny_B: No! No! Why do all the misogynists like me? I AM VERY UNLIKEABLE AND TORTURE PUPPIES.
Rutee: I want to shake them too! There’s a whole world of people falling in love out there, and they can experience it. It’s like they’re trapped in a cage and the whole time the door was unlocked.
kilo: It’s a vicious cycle, I think. The loneliness feeds into the hatred feeds into the loneliness feeds into the hatred, reinforced by a community that finds misogyny okay. Human beings are social animals; if you feel like no one cares about you… that shit fucks you up. Some people it fucks up by making them hateful. I condemn the hate, of course, and I make fun of it, but… sometimes I feel bad for them.
I’m another one of those “there but for the grace of my gender go I” people. I might have ended up a MGTOW if I were male and had discovered those people in high school…
This is backwards. I do, generally speaking, feel sorry for people who are lonely and starved for affection. But my sympathy begins to ebb when I realize that their lonely state is largely of their own making. Because who on earth would want to be around someone so bitter, hateful and deluded? What do they have to offer a friend or a lover, except the unexciting prospect of having to absorb the poison of their anger and entitlement issues? Sadness, loneliness, emotional privation — that’s just life. We all experience it to varying degrees. The only people who will ever love you unconditionally — if you are lucky — are mom and/or dad. Maybe your siblings. With everyone else, relationships have to be negotiated. You don’t get something for nothing. If you want another person to bring some pleasantness into your life, you’ve got to bring some pleasantness into theirs. If you are trying, and it’s not working — consider the much likelier possibility that you are doing something wrong, rather than that people whom you would otherwise want in your life are all out to get you, en masse. If you happen to be a loner by nature, you have to come to terms with what you are, enjoy life on in your own skin and cherish the few bonds that you manage to sustain in your life.
It’s a major milestone in the process of growing up, realizing that the world doesn’t in fact, hate you. Half the world doesn’t hate you, either. It’s more like, the world doesn’t care. After you realize that, you have a choice: become slightly kinder and non-crazier, and people will be more drawn to be your friends and cuddling-buddies, or embrace the livid hatred of half of humanity and “go your own way” in an act of defiance that’s somehow supposed to make the opposite sex realize you are entitled to their affections. In the latter case, the world will continue not caring, and the only person stung, hurt and deprived will be you.
So I do feel sympathy, but I will not discount the importance of free will and people’s moral obligation to apply some rationality to their lives. In the end, we all choose what we become.
I’ve never been in a real relationship, so I’m not really sure what my reaction would be to cuddling (or sex, for that matter). I know that, with my heightened sensory reaction, my stupid brain interprets being touched as violation. Hugging never feels very comfortable, even at its most tolerable. At the same time, I crave physical affection. Crave it despite knowing that I probably wouldn’t enjoy it. It’s very confusing and frustrating.
But anyway, those guys are clearly morons. The robot wives would turn on them in ten seconds flat. Haven’t they ever seen a movie? Robot servants can’t be trusted.
“I have lived a long and fulfilling life, and have had mostly positive experiences with women.”
Dude, you’re fucking forty! Get over yourself. You’ve barely begun; your children are still babies. Your experiences with women have been “mostly positive” by your own admission and yet you allow your fear to rule you so completely that the best vision you can imagine for yourself is a world where you don’t have to interact with women?
You. Have. A. Wife. Right there, working beside you to raise your children with you and build a life with you and you have the audacity to tell complete strangers that she would be better if she were a series of binary codes, projected into your brain via laptop and digital contact lenses?
What the fuck is wrong with you? You worry about raising your sons in a feminized public school system and yet you think that exposing them to the contempt you have for their mother is just fine? And I don’t give a shit what you say about how much you love her, what you express here for her and women is nothing but contemptuous.
There are real and legitimate issues regarding education and young boys that need to be addressed. There are real and legitimate issues regarding education, regardless of gender, that need to be addressed. Artificial wombs and dreams about exploring the great barrier reef, however, are not going to do it.
Your vision of a utopia where men and women live completely separate lives is yours. Own it. Say, “This is what I want.” Have the courage of your fucked up convictions. Sit across the table from your wife and tell her that you dream of the day when men and women can finally be rid of each other. Take responsibility for your beliefs.
“Also, Antz, what do you think of my assertion that there are *already* people of both genders who spend a great deal of time in elaborately constructed fantasy worlds? They’re called “authors”, “bloggers”, and “cosplayers”. You could have the life of your dreams RIGHT NOW!”
I am living the life of my dreams. I am fighting for the freedom and dignity of my people. I am one of a tiny number of warriors calling for liberty amidst the maelstrom of feminist man-hate. I have lived to see that voice heard.
Already, we are making a difference. Freedom begins to triumph over bondage. Love over hate. Compassion over cruelty. It begins. YOU are on the wrong side of history. Not me.
What greater dream could a man have?
Amused: I know it’s their own fault. I wouldn’t wish being in a relationship with a MGHOW on my worst enemy, either. :) But I still feel bad for them and wish I could magically give them the ability to have a functional adult human relationship and replace their anger and entitlement with the ability to bring joy to others.
“Freedom begins to triumph over bondage. Love over hate. Compassion over cruelty. It begins. YOU are on the wrong side of history. Not me.”
Now here’s the funny bit AntZ… I’d say the same thing about you.
On topic: I remember when the study came out about men wanting to cuddle and a few essays and newscasters (NPR, natch) seeming so puzzled.
I’ve always found men to be very desirous of not necessarily sexual expressions of physical affections. In fact, in my admittedly anecdotal experience, some of the “toughest” guys I’ve known have been some of the biggest cuddle-bunnies. I’m curious about whether or not that’s held true for other posters who have romantic relationships with men.
Nothing about men wanting to be held surprises me in the least. It does sadden me, though, that so many feel that they can’t express it.
So tell him to go see a therapist. And to try several until he finds one he is comfortable with. That is what we did with MRAL and it has helped a little. And tell him the truth about women-that we are people and some are good, some are bad and most are just in between.
Not that we are poison injecting harpies who will suck him dry of any money he may have.
Because you don’t give a concrete example of the “horrifying dehumanization of boys,” I followed your link, AntZ. A domestic violence awareness campaign that features young boys is not proof that feminists have overtaken public education at large and are systematically dehumanizing boys. Talk about hyperbole.
The last poster in your collection features a woman with a barcode stamped on her forehead, by the way. I understand that this is part of your context that this ad campaign assumes that only men are abusers, but from that same standpoint couldn’t you argue that the young woman who is modeling for it is just as “dehumanized” as the boys?
” … Get over yourself … you allow your fear to rule you so completely …”
Trust is the antidote to fear. In what shall a man trust in this world? The police? The courts? The legislature?
You should follow your own advice, and get over yourself. Stop grovelling for scraps of female attention. Rise up. Demand justice. Be a part of something greater than yourself.
Is YOUR dream to be a puppet? A perpetual supplicant? A doormat?
We move on. With or without you, we move on. Be a part of it, or be left behind.
AntZ, what are you huffing? Because I wouldn’t mind some right now.
Never know until you try. And even then it may just be a matter of working up to it (I hate being touched most of the time but after a while it seems to be okay with some guys.)
So let me see if I’ve got this straight…making a campaign based on the fact that a person or a group of people believes that even young boys are smart enough and compassionate enough to listen when they’re told to treat women like human beings rather than objects is misandrist now?
It’s better to treat boys as obnoxious little shits who will never understand that it’s not okay to rape and beat women? Is that it? Because that’s what I’m getting here. I mean, in human language, not in crazy delusional nutbag MRA language.
” … couldn’t you argue that the young woman who is modeling for it is just as “dehumanized” as the boys? …”
Yes. Feminists dehumanize men and women equally. All women are victims, all men are perpetrators. Both are equally dehumanized.
However, I don’t care about the second half. That is YOUR problem.
“I am living the life of my dreams. I am fighting for the freedom and dignity of my people. I am one of a tiny number of warriors calling for liberty amidst the maelstrom of feminist man-hate. I have lived to see that voice heard.
Already, we are making a difference. Freedom begins to triumph over bondage. Love over hate. Compassion over cruelty. It begins. YOU are on the wrong side of history. Not me.”
“You should follow your own advice, and get over yourself. Stop grovelling for scraps of female attention. Rise up. Demand justice. Be a part of something greater than yourself.
Is YOUR dream to be a puppet? A perpetual supplicant? A doormat?”
Eeeeehehehehehehehe!!! This is GLORIOUS. I want to steal these and submit them to one of those writing contests for the most ridiculous, hyperbolic, purple prose a person can come up with.
Except that would be plagiarism and as a writer I know that’s wrong. Still, thanks for the laugh, AntZ. I needed that after the day I’ve been having. Awesomesauce, dude. Keep up the good work. XD
“Why do you ask? No one’s individual story matters. The only story that matters is told in the courts and in the legislature. Why not crow of your countless victories there, feminist?”
I ask because, as I said in my post, your desire for segregation of the sexes is very alien to the world I live in, where men and women enjoy each others’ company and would not desire segregation, regardless of the state of their current romantic/sex lives.
I do not have any particular desire to get into a “who’s got it worse in the courts” argument right now, though for purposes of explaining my position I will say this: I agree that there are certain areas where there is bias against men, in both the courts and larger society. Misogyny and misandry often go hand-in-hand, in my experience.
I have no desire for an advantage over men and boys. I don’t think I personally know a feminist who does. I do not see this as a battle between sexes. Society, social rules, and human interactions are complex things that cannot be reduced solely to the Patriarchy (or a matriarchy, as the MRAs often talk about). I do believe that, in our current society, men typically hold more power than women (I know you disagree here, and I’d like to avoid that argument at present because it’s not the point).
The point is that I think your desire for sex-segregation is…misplaced. You discuss men and women as if those are the major lines that divide us, the two teams, and all other affiliations and associations are secondary. I do not believe that is true. It’s a cliche at this point, but first of all: It’s not a zero-sum game. There is no reason men and women cannot hold equal power in society. There is no reason for men and women as groups to oppose each other.
Also, the very notion of gender as the major dividing line (as I mentioned above) is arbitrary and worth relating. When I look at my own life and relationships to other people, my own social groups, “one of us” typically has little to do with gender. There are many men I relate to and many women I relate to. There are also many men and women I do not relate to. Just because someone is a women doesn’t mean I feel like I can identify with her, and just because someone is a man doesn’t mean that I can’t identify with him.
The idea that the sexes are somehow in opposition to each other, and will only find peace when separated is very silly from my perspective.
And also totally discounts people who don’t fit neatly into the binary. But that’s a whole other post, and I’ve already been quite wordy.
Wow. Some of you are saying there is nothibng wrong with putting these adds in a 1st grade class. Wow. OK, do yourselves a favor, and do the following thought experiment:
Fact 1: According to the centres for disease control, 329 men and 1181 women were murdered by intimate partners in 2005. This disparity (22% versus 78%) is the justification for focussing exclusively on males when dealing with domestic violence.
Fact 2: According to the US department of Health and Human services, fathers murdered 138 children and mothers murdered 288 children in 2006. The disparity in murders of children (32% versus 68%) is even greater if all forms of child abuse are included (30% versus 70%).
>>> How would feminists react to an anti-child abuse campaign that featured young FEMALE children dressed in gang-like attire and instructed parents to “teach your daughters young and teach them often not to abuse or murder children”.
It is just as valid to teach only boys to “not hit” as it is to teach only girls to “not kill”. The numbers are almost exactly equivalent.
How would you feel, if your SIX YEAR OLD daughter had a poster saying “teach your daughters young and teach them often not to abuse or murder children” in her CLASSROOM?!?
Can you people EVEN SEE YOURSELVES?!?