Norwegian terrorist Anders Breivik’s manifesto reveals him to be a rabid antifeminist with views strikingly similar to many MRAs
Norwegian terrorist Anders Behring Breivik, who killed more than 90 people in attacks on Friday, was motivated by a toxic mélange of far-right ideology largely revolving around his intense hatred of Islam. The 1500 page “manifesto” he posted to the internet – what appears to be a grab-bag of his own writing and material cut and pasted from assorted right-wing sites and even the Unabomber’s manifesto – crackles with denunciations of Muslims, “Marxists” and the assorted other bogeymen that haunt right-wing dreams.
And it’s also filled with denunciations of feminism that could easily have come from the posts and comments of Men’s Rights and misogynist “manosphere” blogs like The Spearhead, In Mala Fide, and, well, quite a few other sites I write about regularly on this blog. (Not to mention a few of this blog’s misogynist trolls.) In passage after passage, the ideology is the same, the language is the same, even the specific obsessions are the same – from no-fault divorce to the evils of “Sex and the City.” (Download the entire thing from the links here.)
I haven’t had time to go through the manifesto in great detail yet, but I wanted to share with you some selections from it that I think will strike most readers of this blog as strangely familiar.
The following selections, denouncing, among other things, the “’Sex and the City’ lifestyle,”appear to have been written by Breivik himself:
It’s the destructive and suicidal “Sex and the City” lifestyle (modern feminism, sexual revolution) which we are taught to revere as the truth. In that setting, men are not men anymore, but metro sexual and emotional beings that are there to serve the purpose as a never-criticising soul mate to the new age feminist woman goddess. The perfect matriarchy has now been fulfilled and complete equality has finally been achieved. The fact that mankind will seize to exist within three generations with this type of regime is irrelevant. Long live cultural Marxism! …
Isolated, “sex and the city lifestyle” is relatively harmless, but if you glorify it and ram it down the throat of mainstream society like we see today it becomes a lethal and destructive societal force as we are witnessing which eventually leads to a complete breakdown of moral/ethics, the nuclear family model and a sustainable fertility rate which again is leading us to the extinction of Europeans.
Breivik goes on to rant about STDs and no-fault divorce, before moving on to another favorite obsession of manosphere misogynists, the supposed sexual “capital” of manipulative women:
Females have a significantly higher proportion of erotic capital than males due to biological differences (men have significantly more prevalent sexual urges than females and are thus easily manipulated). The female manipulation of males has been institutionalised during the last decades and is a partial cause of the feminisation of men in Europe. This highly underestimated factor has contributed to the creation and rise of the matriarchal systems which are now dominating Western European countries. …
He also blames women for the spread of what he considers evil “cultural Marxism” and multiculturalism:
Fact: 60-70% of all cultural Marxists/multiculturalists are women. This partly explains why the gradual feminist revolution is directly linked to the implementation of multiculturalist doctrines. These feminist cultural Marxists do not only want more benefits and rights for themselves. They want it all, and have more or less been awarded with everything they could ever dream of achieving. They now have complete matriarchal supremacy domestically and exercise substantial influence in politics. …
Obsessed with the purported danger that Islam will outbreed the West, Breivik offers an assortment of creepy solutions to increase the fertility of Western whites. (It’s not altogether clear to me if these are all his own views, but they certainly are consistent with what he says elsewhere in the manifesto.) After suggesting limiting contraception and banning abortion, Breivik offers this “solution”:
Discourage women in general to strive for full time careers. This will involve certain sexist and discriminating policies but should increase the fertility rate by up to 0,1-0,2 points.
Women should not be encouraged by society/media to take anything above a bachelor’s degree but should not be prevented from taking a master or PhD. Males on the other hand should obviously continue to be encouraged to take higher education – bachelor, master and PhD. …
And then he’s back on his “Sex and the City” hobbyhorse:
Discourage women in general to strive for “sex and the city/Madonna” lifestyles. The mass media are currently actively glorifying/encouraging “sex and the city/Madonna” lifestyles which involves the glorification of casual sex, multiple sex partners and generally an extremely liberal individualistic lifestyle hostile to the traditional nuclear family values. As such, the non-restrictions of the mass media is the main cause for our unsustainable fertility rate of 1,5.
The indirect media/government glorification campaigns through individual artists, various series, movies and media coverage in general should reflect this new shift (no more glorification of “sex and the city lifestyles” or equivalent portrayals. No longer should women be pressured to have equal success regarding their career as males.
Womens “new role” should be actively illustrated and glorified through series, movies and commercials. This will involve significant restrictions in media freedoms and rights. These restrictions and reforms will result in an increased fertility rate of approximately 0,2-0,3 points.
The end result for implementing the above reforms would be an increase in the fertility rate up from 1,5 to approximately 2,1-2,4 which would be sustainable.
However, this will also involve significant restrictions in women’s rights and media rights.
And, like many in the manosphere, he also holds out hope for “artificial wombs,” which would of course reduce the inconvenience of relying on women to cooperate with his plans.
Large chunks of the manifesto consist of cut-and-pasted blog posts from an anonymous far-right Norwegian blogger known as Fjordman, whose now defunct blog can be found here. (According to Andrew Brown in the Guardian article linked to above, Breivik and Fjordman are not the same person.)
Here are some selections from the Fjordman posts that Breivik includes in his manifesto. Again, much of this will seem very familiar to many of you, I am sure.
For all the talk about “girl power” and “women kicking ass” which you see on movies these days, if the men of your “tribe” are too weak or demoralised to protect you, you will be enslaved and crushed by the men from other “tribes” before you can say “Vagina Monologues”. Which means that if you break down men’s masculinity, their willingness and ability to defend themselves and their families, you destroy the country. That’s exactly what Western women have done for the last forty years. ….
The male protective instinct doesn’t take action because Scandinavian women have worked tirelessly to eradicate it, together with everything else that smacks of traditional masculinity. Because of this, feminism has greatly weakened Scandinavia, and perhaps Western civilisation as whole. …
Didn’t feminists always claim that the world would be a better place with women in the driver’s seat, because they wouldn’t sacrifice their own children? Well, isn’t that exactly what they are doing now? Smiling and voting for parties that keep the doors open to Muslim immigration, the same Muslims who will be attacking their children tomorrow? …
Misandry, the hatred of men, isn’t necessarily less prevalent than misogyny, the hatred of women. The difference is that the former is much more socially acceptable.
If all oppression comes from Western men, it becomes logical to try weakening them as much as possible. If you do, a paradise of peace and equality awaits us at the other side of the rainbow. Well congratulations to Western European women. You’ve succeeded in harassing and ridiculing your own sons into suppressing many of their masculine instincts. To your surprise, you didn’t enter a feminist Nirvana, but paved the way for an unfolding Islamic hell. ….
Feminists claim that the reason why women haven’t been as numerous in politics and science as men is due to male oppression of women. Some of this is true. But it is not the whole story. Being male means having to prove something, to achieve something, in a greater way than it does for women. In addition to this, the responsibility for child rearing will always fall more heavily on women than on men. ….
it was in fact the women who started this whole “single is best” culture that now permeates much of the West. Since women initiate most divorces and a divorce can potentially mean financial ruin for a man, it shouldn’t really be too surprising that many men hesitate to get involved at all. … At the same time, women during the past few decades have made it a lot easier to have a girlfriend without getting married. So women make it riskier to get married and easier to stay unmarried, and then they wonder why men “won’t commit?” Maybe too many women didn’t think all this feminism stuff quite through before jumping on the bandwagon? …..
The elaborate welfare state model in Western Europe is frequently labelled as “the nanny state,” but perhaps it could also be named “the husband state.” Why? Well, in a traditional society, the role of men and husbands is to physically protect and financially provide for their women. In our modern society, part of this task has simply been “outsourced” to the state, which helps explain why women in general give a disproportionate support to high taxation and pro-welfare state parties. The state has simply become a substitute husband, upheld by taxation of their ex-husbands. ….
Radical feminism has bred suspicion and hostility, not cooperation. And what’s more, it has no in any way eradicated the basic sexual attraction between feminine women and masculine men. If people do not find this in their own country, they travel to another country or culture to find it, which in our age of globalisation is easier than ever. A striking number of Scandinavian men find their wives in East Asia, Latin America or other nations with a more traditional view of femininity, and a number of women find partners from more conservative countries. …
radical feminism has been one of the most important causes of the current weakness of Western civilisation, both culturally and demographically. Feminists, often with a Marxist world view, have been a crucial component in establishing the suffocating public censorship of Political Correctness in Western nations. They have also severely weakened the Western family structure, and contributed to making the West too soft and self-loathing to deal with aggression from Muslims. …
Well, after two generations of Second Wave Feminism, Ms. Willis and Ms. Beauvoir have had their way: The West has skyrocketing divorce rates and plummeting birth rates, leading to a cultural and demographic vacuum that makes us vulnerable to a take-over by… Islam. And feminists still aren’t satisfied. ….
Feminists claim that women have been victims of men, that men have oppressed women for centuries and that the sexes are equal. Denying this will result in the smears “misogynist” and “male chauvinist pig”. But equalising the sexes has led to a crippling feminisation of Western society … portraying women as oppressed victims and the equals of males is one example of how the pursuit of equality is being used to destroy our society and undermine – and therefore be in conflict with – Mother nature. ….
I’ll continue going through the manifesto to see what else I can find. If any of you decide to do the same thing, and find other selections in it that you find telling, please post them in the comments below.
I would also like to find specific writings on manosphere blogs – posts or comments – that directly parallel these selections from Breivik’s manifesto. If any of you are willing to help, again, please post your findings in the comments below, along with URLs to the sources of the manosphere quotes.
Ideas have consequences. Vile, hateful ideas have vile, hateful consequences.
For more on Breivik’s misogyny, see this post on Red Light Politics.
PZ Myers has more on Breivik’s noxious ideology, including his hatred of atheists, here.
Posted on July 24, 2011, in antifeminism, evil women, marriage strike, men who should not ever be with women ever, MGTOW, misandry, misogyny, MRA, oppressed men, racism, reactionary bullshit, the spearhead, violence against men/women, western women suck. Bookmark the permalink. 744 Comments.
I wonder what most MRAs will think when they realise that a mass murderer agrees with their words? Anti-moslem and anti-jew people might not give a damn, but I like to think ordinary MRA men would stop and think.
@YOHAMI:
*sigh* Nobody has said that this guy did what he did “because of the MRA.” At most, it was “Here is a guy who took MRA rhetoric seriously, and actually carried through with it.”
In your summary, you’ve also conveniently forgotten your accusation that Feminism is the same as the MRM, casually implying that feminists use the same violent rhetoric that MRAs do. Well, that is false, and its something that has been brought up in the past multiple times. Read MRA blogs, and you get strong indications that they are anti-woman, not pro-men. Read feminist blogs, and you get strong indications that they are pro-woman, not anti-men. Equivocating the two movements… grah… it’s just unbelievably dishonest, and would take much more than a couple comments to explain just how wrong it is.
@Magpie:
Our resident anti-feminist, AWS, has already distanced himself far away from this guy, calling him every name under the sun. Go figure.
Magpie,
I think a lot of MRAs will look at him as some kind of martyr. Some did so with Sodini, and somehow blamed his murders on feminism.
Rly AWS did? xD (I haven’t been following xD )
kirbywarp,
Thats the thing,. For you and some of the other commenters here is easier to disagree and fire bullets and call whatever Im saying dishonest and attempt to frame me (and every dissonant voice, I guess) as one of the trolls you are used to fight and defeat.
HOLLY fully transfered the horror of the murder to the MRA. And I talked to HER.
Cool?
When I talked to you and told you that it would be unfair to attribute some random female murders to feminism, I WOULD NEVER THOUGHT that you would see that as me trying to imply that feminism is violent. But, this is the thing when you talk to people who is already on the defensive. You are seeing stuff because you want. The more I talk to you, the more stuff you think you perceive. The more I talk, the more shit fest.
But its the same if I get to compare one religion to another when talking to religious people. See, I get I offended you for comparing Feminism to the MRA. Sorry for hurting you, I never expected that would happen. Lack of tact. Cool?
Still, you CAN compare the two, and the same fallacies and strawman and troll shotting and stupidity are abundant in both sectors. Sad to watch, because you guys should be solving the issues instead of creating more of this nonsense.
“Read feminist blogs, and you get strong indications that they are pro-woman, not anti-men.”
When I read feminist stuff I find it full of anti-men stuff. But it is probably invisible to you, since you are inside of it.
Do you know mysoginistic cultures dont perceive how much they “hate” women? its just normal for them. So, that. Just gender reversed.
AWS? I wasn’t thinking of him as ‘an ordinary man’.
So…YOHAMI…are you saying that Feminism is a hate movement like the MRM or not?
“I think a lot of MRAs will look at him as some kind of martyr. Some did so with Sodini, and somehow blamed his murders on feminism.”
Do you think so, Yohami? Am I being too optimistic?
I never understand the point of this kind of terrorism. No one will be converted by this man’s murderous actions. His manifesto will resonate with no one but the already converted. The groups promoting this kind of rhetoric will be closely monitored. And nothing can be done to prevent the incidents of a lone maniac anyway, so everyone loses.
This is so sad.
Oh, this is the “calm and objective outsider” thing xD I wonder if he’s still feeling ill xD
We’re just fervent religious ppl too wrapped up in our religion xD
It’s cute to me how he’s trying to back off from Kirby w/o acting like he’s backing off tho :3
I’m having trouble putting words round this idea: it’s good that most people can’t understand, because it would be bad if people could put their head in that space.
No good with words, sorry.
redlocker, morethinking, etc, again:
Im really tired of you guys.
“So…YOHAMI…are you saying that Feminism is a hate movement like the MRM or not?”
when I said
“I said it would be UNFAIR to link feminism to some random violent woman. And I say it is UNFAIR to link this guy to the MRA.”
Witch hunt is a favorite sport here, isnt it.
Somehow if I put Feminism and MRA in the same line and make a comparison, you guys perceive that Im putting them as equals and saying feminism equals hate? who knows what will happen if I start expressing my opinions, which have some positive but negative connotations, about feminism!
This is like talking to religious people, really.
Anyway, lets try?
Am I saying feminism is a hate movement? no. But do I consider MRM a hate movement? neither. oh surprise! you didnt see this coming did you.
MRM is a very dark movement from what I have seen. A lot of people there is really hurt and resentful. What I KNOW however, is that nobody pays the attention because they are men. If they were women and had the same problems, people like you, and the state, and the powers that be would be bringing them assistance. Since they get no attention, the flagellate themselves. Sad to watch. They have some valid points though. Since everyone here seems to hate them, I guess theres no point for me to bring which points I think are valid.
MRM contains a large dose of womenhating. But, most of it is about having being victimized by women. Again, if they were women whining out loud about how they have been victimized by men, Im sure all of you would be listening. Which leads to this conclusion: you dont care about they because they are men? that only fuels them even more. Sad stuff.
Then Feminism: whenever I read feminism stuff the woman is always the “real” victim of everything, the one who needs help, the precious little thing, etc. Men are overlooked, or considered as full of privileges and abusers and stuff. It doesnt feel right, for me, being a good man, that everytime I care about the pain of others, I end up being reported as the “bad one” just because I was born as a man. This is some quite large stuff, but I dont make any illusions that I will be able to really talk about them with a feminist because Im probably already triggering all of your “troll alerts”
Do I consider Feminism as hate speech as MRA? I think theres more hate in the MRA. But, since Feminism has more power in society, the hate elements in feminism are more TANGIBLE and have more repercussions than anything the MRA is doing.
And I dont think the mass killings were a repercussion of MRA, as some commenters here are saying. That is what I originally wanted to say, really.
B/c Holly isn’t here nemore… I just want to clarify for her :]
We don’t have proof, and we’re not claiming, that this guy was an MRA, or that misogyny was his only problem. Far from it. But we are pointing out that lunatic-fringe hatred on the Internet is not benign, not a joke. It has the potential to spark very real-life violence.
Is what she said. xD
Magpie,
Not long a guy a guy set himself on fire after being screwed up by the law court, and some MRAs were celebrating that as a path of action.
I think the MRAs feel hopeless. I dont know what can be done about them. Hurting them, though, doesnt make sense.
* I meant a guy set himself on fire after being screwed up by the family court.
its getting late here… need to proof what I type
Setting yourself on fire is a horrible, terrible way to go. Was his troubled mind a direct result of the law court, though? I mean, was he going fine before the court case, would he have been hunky-dory if he had never been to court?
@YOHAMI:
“But its the same if I get to compare one religion to another when talking to religious people. See, I get I offended you for comparing Feminism to the MRA. Sorry for hurting you, I never expected that would happen. Lack of tact. Cool?”
No, not cool at all. I am offended for a reason, I’m not running on auto-pilot here. I’m not just reacting to you because I don’t like you, I’m responding to what you are saying. If I’m reading you wrong, fine, point it out. But I’ve explained exactly why saying Feminism and the MRM are identical is nonsense, and your response seems to be “Hey, sorry I offended you.” -__- Way to be patronizing buddy.
“When I read feminist stuff I find it full of anti-men stuff. But it is probably invisible to you, since you are inside of it.”
Yeah, I’ve read a bunch of anti-men stuff in radical feminist writings myself. Guess what? I and a good majority of other feminists don’t agree with them. They are by no means “invisible,” just irrelevant. This ties into the long-standing challenge David has had to self-described “moderate” MRAs. Name one MRA/MRM blog out there that isn’t explicitly anti-woman (and a couple other criteria as well). Not many people seem to be up for the challenge.
On the other side, plenty of feminist blogs are demonstrably not anti-man, and some feminists have even started up pro-men websites (like NSWATM). The two movements are not equal. If you disagree, alright. Lets find a website you say is full of anti-men and is actually representative of feminism, and go from there. The manboobz forums are a great way to do this.
Here’s what irritates me the most. It is very simple to say “both sides make the same claims.” The problem is when you completely ignore which side actually backs up their claims, and which simply makes assertions. Its not a case of two religions bickering, its more like comparing Christianity and Atheism. “Both make claims about a God, right? Both are a religion!” No. Just no.
I know you meant family court. It’s only half past two in the afternoon here, I sometimes forget how late it is for other people. ;)
“I wonder what most MRAs will think when they realise that a mass murderer agrees with their words? Anti-moslem and anti-jew people might not give a damn, but I like to think ordinary MRA men would stop and think.”
People have killed for every cause under the sun. A belief is not about who preaches lip service to it but whether it aligns with reality and will better the world. I do not think blaming all of the world’s problems on masculinity will result in any good, but that’s just me.
Put a human being in a cage, you will see survival behaviour. Survival behaviour is ugly.
– eilish
Yohami, do you think that the Men’s Rights Movement actively pursues the promotion of men’s rights? And if so, in what ways? What are the valid issues presented by the MRM that are ignored by feminists and society as a whole?*
*Bear in mind that I do think that there are valid issues. I just don’t think that MRM, in its current iteration, is working productively to define those issues and strategize a viable method of address.
magpie,
I doubt it, I think his mind was screwed up beforehand, and he thought it was a good idea to kill himself and make everyone feel bad for what the world did to him. This is a classic disorder, thats why people leave suicidal notes too.
Thing is, the MRA adopted the guy as a martyr. Some feminist bloggers hated the guy and denounced him as an “abuser” for making his family suffer trough his suicide. Obviously, if it was the wife who set herself on fire, the feminist blogs would still blame “the guy” for making her commit suicide? so whatever the case is, the guy is the bad guy, and the woman the good person.
I have no insight nor a clue of what are the facts. I just know everyone picks a side and keeps repeating whatever is convenient for their own agenda. While the real people´s problems remain intact.
Well said Nobinayamu.
Factfinder, I may have misunderstood you. Are you saying the murderer blames all the world’s problems on masculinity?
YOHAMI – I’m not sure what you identify as feminism, and how you think it has power. I agree that feminism has a certain amount of power, and that hence we should try to be self-conscious and reflexive about the kinds of ideas we perpetuate. However, patriarchy (which is not the same as the MRM) is still alive and kicking…going strong. I do think that father’s rights are important (for example) – but I would also argue that the reason why women tend to get custody of their children is because of patriarchy and sexism which assumes that women should be the primary caretakers of children.
The state, as you call it, and society gives plenty of support to men. That’s why they get paid more, get promoted more readily in most occupations – indeed that’s why so many people in charge of countries are men! That’s why it’s almost impossible to get a guilty verdict for a rapist unless the rapist is black and the victim/survivor is white (that’s when it plays into racist stereotypes as well as gendered ones).
Also, the problem is not that MRAs ‘whine’ about women who have hurt them, the problem is that that is followed by a ‘therefore all women are evil/hateful/moneygrubbing/idiots’. Feminists tend to agree that, as women are human beings, they can do terrible and hurtful things. Arguing that this is in some way inherent to the gender is, however, hateful and misogynist.
@YOHAMI:
“What I KNOW however, is that nobody pays the attention because they are men. If they were women and had the same problems, people like you, and the state, and the powers that be would be bringing them assistance.”
You had me going there for a second… I really thought I was just misunderstanding you, that somehow I had misread what you had said earlier.
Jesus… and you say we are leaping to conclusions. I’ve already mentioned that some feminists have started up pro-man blogs, and It might absolutely shock you to learn that I and others think that there are some mens issues that are worth looking at. Feminism is about equality across genders, and if women are treated better because of their gender, that is also a problem.
“Am I saying feminism is a hate movement? no. But do I consider MRM a hate movement? neither. oh surprise! you didnt see this coming did you.”
Actually, no, I saw it coming from a mile away. Shocker.
Yohami: Ah, I see what you were getting at, now.
@Kirby Somehow I doubt you’re going to get nething out of him more than “I’m more objective than you as an outsider” stuff and that he perceives feminism to be anti-male (which is of course his own bias as a male right? xD since we’re talking about biases and not being able to see stuff xD)
He’s alrdy set up the situation where if you argue w/ him he’ll say you’re just being defensive and irrational b/c you think he’s a troll xD Or you’re too far involved in feminism to see it’s an anti-male philosophy xD
I am wondering tho… he said he’s tired of us xD Before he said he’s becoming ill b/c of this site (srsly after 3 days… somehow I suspect 3 weeks later he’ll still be here telling us how ill he’s getting xD )…. and yet he’s here xD it reminds me of NWO and “you’re so vile and hateful and awful!” and “ignoring” me XDDD or the troll strike… xD
It’s like “this food is so rotten but I can’t stop eating it!” xD
Also Kirby, since I’m apparently full of hate (what w/ my Safe Space Project and all xD ) I can’t love you nemore :( I’m sry Kirby :\ We must be apppppaaarrrrttttt xD
@YOHAMI:
“Thing is, the MRA adopted the guy as a martyr. Some feminist bloggers hated the guy and denounced him as an “abuser” for making his family suffer trough his suicide. Obviously, if it was the wife who set herself on fire, the feminist blogs would still blame “the guy” for making her commit suicide? so whatever the case is, the guy is the bad guy, and the woman the good person.”
Feminists. I don’t think these people are who you say they are.
Off Topic Alert: Yohami’s earlier comment (Talking about misogyny is fine. This guy hated women, and repeats a lot of nonsense from the MRA. However if this was a MRA crime he would have killed WOMEN ONLY or something like that.) reminded me of the Polytechnique Massacre.
After reading Lepine’s suicide note, he mentions some MRA-ish things in his suicide note but I don’t think he identified as MRA or could have at the time (1989 was probably too early for that). However he did quite notably separate men from women when he was killing people. He tried to kill only women, and he had a list of some 19 prominent local feminists he wanted to kill.
Is this also not an example of how the violent rhetoric inherent in the MRM, shared by this mass-murder, is not concerning?
“Some feminist bloggers hated the guy and denounced him as an “abuser” for making his family suffer trough his suicide.” If you’re talking about Ball – feminists labeled him an abuser for hitting his daughter so hard in the face that he split her lip.
No, feminism does. What else is patriarchy theory? Why does feminism claim all of women’s ills are, at their very core, the result of an external force perpetrated by men?
“Put a human being in a cage, you will see survival behaviour. Survival behaviour is ugly.
– eilish”
FactFinder, that in no way justifies what Breivik has done. Are you going the NWOSlave route now?
Obviously, if it was the wife who set herself on fire, the feminist blogs would still blame “the guy” for making her commit suicide?
Which feminist blogs are you referring to? o_O And when did this happen? xD
Nobinayamu,
“do you think that the Men’s Rights Movement actively pursues the promotion of men’s rights?”
No, I think they are doing everything wrong. No movement, no proposals, nothing. The only thing they seem to have is to have been victimized by and / or resent women / feminism / etc. However, no one sympathizes with the role of weak / victim men, so they wont have luck with passing their points unless they organize and present their stuff in a “manly” way. They cant succeed by playing the “poor victim woman” part, because they wont trigger the white knighting instincts in the rest of us. At least, I think thats the case. I do think people would be helping them if they were women.
“What are the valid issues presented by the MRM that are ignored by feminists and society as a whole?*”
The main issues feminism presented a few decades ago have been solved by now. We should be working in favor of “social rights” and meritocracy, regardless of gender, etc. It seems like the law system is really benefiting more women than men and pushing the stuff too far.
But Im really ignorant on this subject: I dont know what the laws are, I dont have the data, etc. But it wouldnt surprise me since most claims I hear from feminism these days have no correlation with my day to day life. Maybe its time to change things up again.
Is it my blog? :D
I am from multiple alternate realities after all xD
I suspect his sudden change of tone and appearance of ignorance about feminist issues is him doing:
http://yohami.com/blog/2011/07/18/logic-conflict-the-instincts-in-play/
That xD
“The main issues feminism presented a few decades ago have been solved by now. We should be working in favor of “social rights” and meritocracy, regardless of gender, etc. It seems like the law system is really benefiting more women than men and pushing the stuff too far.
But Im really ignorant on this subject: I dont know what the laws are, I dont have the data, etc. But it wouldnt surprise me since most claims I hear from feminism these days have no correlation with my day to day life. Maybe its time to change things up again.”
Individuals still have a lot of work to do, man. The problems that people face under misogynistic cultural ideas didn’t end during the 1960’s or 70’s. There are issues that face women worldwide, and feminists are fighting for solutions in 2nd to 3rd world countries. Even the richest countries (like Japan for instance) are dealing with problems.
Also, how can you be ignorant on social issues, yet have an expectation of what will be the issues at hand?
What a ridiculous and stupid article. Every MRA I’ve spoken to is appalled by this incident.
In contrast, Sharon Osbourne saying that a man’s penis being amputated is “fabulous” is greeted with cheers by her female audience and gets viewed nationwide on daytime American TV.
Kirby,
“But I’ve explained exactly why saying Feminism and the MRM are identical is nonsense”
Which I didnt say, did I. Thats why I keep calling you on the strawman thing.
@YOHAMI:
“I have no insight nor a clue of what are the facts.”
“But Im really ignorant on this subject: I dont know what the laws are, I dont have the data, etc.”
Alright… You apparently don’t understand how an argument works. Slipping around saying “You’re wrong, the two movements are the same, you are just treating me like a troll, etc” doesn’t work if you don’t have any grounds for it. And admitting your ignorance also admits you having no basis for your claims, save for what you feel (sorry, KNOW) is correct.
Go away, base your opinion on some actual evidence, then come back. Til then, I don’t see why I should take anything you say seriously.
YOHAMI “The main issues feminism presented a few decades ago have been solved by now.”
What do you think these are?
Cos there’s still a wage gap, women still do the lion’s share of the housework and childrearing/minding, women are still victims of rape in alarming numbers…and an alarming number of the rapists get off scott-free. The problems have been mitigated/lessened in many ways, but not solved.
I’d also point out that I am not all that aware of discrimination against POC…given that I’m a white woman and I’m occasionally surprised to hear about instances of discrimination that I just don’t recognise or have to confront. I might hazard a guess that you, as a bloke, might not be as aware of discrimination against women in your daily life as women – living their daily lives – are.
Kirby,
“Alright… You apparently don’t understand how an argument works.”
From strawman to adhominem and back. Dont worry, I dont take you seriously either.
Yohami, you don’t have any data to present, you aren’t sure what the vital and valid issues of the MRM are, you’re certain that the main issues of feminism -how ever you’re defining them- have been solved…
But you’re certain that the MRM is ineffective because they’re presenting in a manner too similar to “poor victim woman” and this is, unmanly and unworthy of sympathy.
I hope I’m not being overly defensive by suggesting that you might want to actually do some research.
@YOHAMI:
Perhaps identical was too strong, but you do say they are equal but opposite movements.
@Ami:
Alright, seriously. That’s creepy as fuck. YOHAMI, with the power invested in me, I now declare you a troll. GTFO.
FactFinder, that in no way justifies what Breivik has done. Are you going the NWOSlave route now?
Where did I say that? I never even thought that. But it’s my fault that you thought I was justifying murder, you’re right and I’m wrong.
redlocker,
“The problems that people face under misogynistic cultural ideas didn’t end during the 1960′s or 70′s. There are issues that face women worldwide, and feminists are fighting for solutions in 2nd to 3rd world countries.”
I know. Thing is, MEN also face a lot of problems everywhere, not just women. The fact that feminism cares about women while treating men as privileged abusers, is unfair. Im not saying stop the help towards women, I say help everyone. See? humanism. Women are not the defacto victims, theres a lot of stuff going on.
When I say Im ignorant, I mean I dont know the laws, I dont know the data, etc. I doubt anyone here has the data so I assume everyone here is somewhat as ignorant as I am. All I have is pop culture and blog and news reading. To really abolish the core ignorance I would have to go and study the law, talk to people, get involved, and spend some years helping people. Again, I guess nobody here is doing that? if so, data is welcome
I wonder how I’m wired xD
Nobinayamu,
If you want data, NWO has being posting once and again the MRM manifesto, and they have pages and pages of how men are getting screwed up by the system. So, there. Im not a vocer or something. Im not related to the MRM in any way.
YOHAMI on arguing with women on his blog: “So for her, calling you names and getting offended and angry is only natural. Attempting to talk her out of that state only increases the problem. The way out: ditch the logical layer of communication, forget the “objective talk” and switch to an emotional / seduction / emphatic level, one that takes in account her fears and desires, not just her ideas, so she can respond with a different set of emotions.”
Can you explain to me how that isn’t sexist, discriminatory and misogynist? Assuming that because a person is a woman you shouldn’t take her arguments seriously? Try not to resort to namecalling.
Fact Finder, I don’t presume to speak for all of feminism, or really any feminist but myself. But I don’t think that “…women’s ills are, at their very core, the result of an external force perpetrated by men?” That belief is not why I began to study feminism as a teenager, and it isn’t why I call myself a feminist today.
I don’t believe that the patriarchy, or patriarchal theory, has ever been an “external force” perpetrated by men as a whole. Patriarchy has always been a system constructed, often without conscious collusion by the powerful. Historically, most of them have been men; one can easily make the case that powerful women have participated. To me, Patriarchy has always been a means to consolidate power as easily and thoroughly as possible.
And I am not being flippant, or condescending, or disingenuous when I say that I truly, down to my spine, believe that its tight reins have restrained men as much as women.
Nobiyamu,
“But you’re certain that the MRM is ineffective because they’re presenting in a manner too similar to “poor victim woman” and this is, unmanly and unworthy of sympathy.”
Well, why do you think it is that nobody pays them attention? why do you have a site like this were people mocks them all day long? whats your take. Yeah they hate women, but hate is not all they are saying, and thats quite hard to ignore.
Yohami, I don’t have a dog in the “you’re a troll” race, as of yet. But you’re making claims that require, at least, a basic understanding of the issues at hand. You’re talking about defensiveness, and real world problems, and sympathy, and so on -and laying what you feel is an apathy towards men’s issues squarely at the feet of feminism- with nothing more than your feelings and whole heap of nebulousness as a basis.
Much of what NWO posts, much of what is posted within the MRM blogosphere is, if not outright debunked, wildly hyperbolic. I’m not sure what you mean by saying that you’re not a “vocer”. But if you’re going to tell me that as a feminist, I’m willfully ignoring the issues of men, I would like you to have some idea of what those issues might be.
@Lyn The way out: ditch the logical layer of communication, forget the “objective talk” and switch to an emotional / seduction / emphatic level, one that takes in account her fears and desires, not just her ideas, so she can respond with a different set of emotions.”
Yup. Sound familiar? xD That’s exactly what he’s trying to do w/ us w/ his last bunch of posts.. .xD He’s trying to get his way out… xD
Except Kirby is engaging him in logic, like a guy should. xD Fight that snake Kirby! Fight it! XD
You and me both, brother.
@YOHAMI:
If they didn’t have so much hatred in the movement, they would be taken much more seriously. Especially if they didn’t misconstrue or simply fabricate data, could find data that actually supports their views, didn’t misquote opponents, and didn’t sit around hoping for the day that women become obsolete when sex-bots and artificial wombs become commonplace.
The massive amount of hatred is exactly why they aren’t taken seriously, along with all the rest I’ve mentioned.
Has Factfinder added me to his blog yet? xD *waves arms* right heeerreeeee!!! xD
Lyn,
Thanks for checking my blog.
“Can you explain to me how that isn’t sexist, discriminatory and misogynist?”
Im describing how I see women / men seem respond to threats. Im discriminating between male and women set of instincts, sure. I see different patterns.
Misogynist? I dont see how – I dont have a drop of women-hating in my body.
“Assuming that because a person is a woman you shouldn’t take her arguments seriously?”
I didnt say anything like that, did I?
I said when a woman perceives a treat, her set of instincts try to expel and knock the snake prior to negotiate verbally with the snake. If there is some sort of dialogue or logic used, it seems to be about proving the snake is a snake and exposing the snake real nature. Sort of as “everything you say is going to be used against you”
Sort of whats happening here.
Yohami, I mock misogyny. I do it in my spare time, even when I’m not on the internet. I also mock racism, xenophobia, misandry, pedantic and unproductive political correctness*, classism, homophobia, and religious intolerance. I mock hatred.
I don’t mock the entirety of the MRM because the issues it presents, when it can be bothered to demonstrate a basic level of coherence, aren’t inherently worthy of mockery. But then, unlike you, I feel that I have some grasp of what those issues are.
Ami, you’ve got to give the people what they want. I recommend that you study FactFinder’s “Big List o’ Quotes” — it shouldn’t take long — and craft a quote that he’ll just have to add.
Which set of instincts do I have? xD
That asterik was there for a reason: *I don’t consider all, or even most, political correctness to be pedantic and/or unproductive. I believe that basic politeness is the essential platform of the original idea of PC. Call people what they prefer to be called.
@YOHAMI:
“If there is some sort of dialogue or logic used, it seems to be about proving the snake is a snake and exposing the snake real nature. Sort of as “everything you say is going to be used against you”
Sort of whats happening here.”
Yeah, because what’s going on here isn’t at all about actually calling a snake a snake, such things never actually happen. You’ve already admitted your ignorance on the subject, and yet you somehow “KNOW” what the truth is, based on personal experience. Sorry, but anecdotal data isn’t good data, especially when you don’t actually say what it is, or have some way of verifying it.
So what are you doing here, in your own words? Are you trying to honestly discuss anything? I’ve given my evidence on how the MRM is indeed a hate group, and that feminists don’t dismiss men’s rights outright at all. What has been your response? “I’m ignorant on the subject, but I still KNOW what the truth is.” Super.
(cue cries of “strawman” and “ad hominem”)
Nobinayamu,
“I’m willfully ignoring the issues of men, I would like you to have some idea of what those issues might be.”
Man its really tiring to come on and on and on about what I didnt say. Whatever. I never said you as a feminist are willfully ignoring the issues of men.
And I have a grasp on the issues myself. But Im not a “voicer”, and I see no point on coming to a feminist blog to bring up the causes of the MRM.
Standing on the middle and trying to keep the cool is hard already.
Ami, you have ALL the instincts, because you’re just that awesome.
Nobinayamu,
“Yohami, I mock misogyny. I do it in my spare time, even when I’m not on the internet. I also mock racism, xenophobia, misandry, pedantic and unproductive political correctness*, classism, homophobia, and religious intolerance. I mock hatred.”
I love that. Keep on it.
Ah, so you’re a Sensible Centrist. Maintaining the rational middle between the two emotional extremes of equality and inequality.
@Ami Agreed with kirby, that is creepy as fuck. Everyone else engaging with YOHAMI, I suggest you read what Ami linked before continuing with this conversation any farther.
Okay so what is he here for? XD He doesn’t want to talk about feminism, he doesn’t want to talk about the causes of the MRM. xD
He doesn’t want to tell me which instincts I have… xD He doesn’t want to snake-fight Kirby XD
He doesn’t want to discuss Star Wars… :(
Hey Johnny, did you watch Jedi in theatres? :D
Has Factfinder added me to his blog yet? xD *waves arms* right heeerreeeee!!!
xD
You seem to value femininity over masculinity, so your blog should be worth a perusal. However, some of us use our minds to earn a living, and learning a specialized skill set takes more than fifteen minutes. I read and write when I need to unwind and I write about what I want.
YOHAMI: Sort of as “everything you say is going to be used against you” Sort of whats happening here.
Uh, yes. In the internet, you might be held accountable for what you say. Woooaoh!
Speaking of which, what is your evidence for the different ways women and men respond to fear?
And true, perhaps you didn’t say that you shouldn’t engage with women logically in an argument…but you certainly claim that you should use “emotional / seduction / emphatic” approaches instead of logical ones when a woman is upset. Apparently men, when feeling emotional, should be approached in a logical manner. That’s problematic.
Anyway, I know we don’t mind derailing so much here, but this is a bit of a derail so…
I’ll just restate that I find it unsurprising that someone with a callous disregard for life is not only racist but misogynist. Both are about treating people like they aren’t human :(