Norwegian terrorist Anders Breivik’s manifesto reveals him to be a rabid antifeminist with views strikingly similar to many MRAs
Norwegian terrorist Anders Behring Breivik, who killed more than 90 people in attacks on Friday, was motivated by a toxic mélange of far-right ideology largely revolving around his intense hatred of Islam. The 1500 page “manifesto” he posted to the internet – what appears to be a grab-bag of his own writing and material cut and pasted from assorted right-wing sites and even the Unabomber’s manifesto – crackles with denunciations of Muslims, “Marxists” and the assorted other bogeymen that haunt right-wing dreams.
And it’s also filled with denunciations of feminism that could easily have come from the posts and comments of Men’s Rights and misogynist “manosphere” blogs like The Spearhead, In Mala Fide, and, well, quite a few other sites I write about regularly on this blog. (Not to mention a few of this blog’s misogynist trolls.) In passage after passage, the ideology is the same, the language is the same, even the specific obsessions are the same – from no-fault divorce to the evils of “Sex and the City.” (Download the entire thing from the links here.)
I haven’t had time to go through the manifesto in great detail yet, but I wanted to share with you some selections from it that I think will strike most readers of this blog as strangely familiar.
The following selections, denouncing, among other things, the “’Sex and the City’ lifestyle,”appear to have been written by Breivik himself:
It’s the destructive and suicidal “Sex and the City” lifestyle (modern feminism, sexual revolution) which we are taught to revere as the truth. In that setting, men are not men anymore, but metro sexual and emotional beings that are there to serve the purpose as a never-criticising soul mate to the new age feminist woman goddess. The perfect matriarchy has now been fulfilled and complete equality has finally been achieved. The fact that mankind will seize to exist within three generations with this type of regime is irrelevant. Long live cultural Marxism! …
Isolated, “sex and the city lifestyle” is relatively harmless, but if you glorify it and ram it down the throat of mainstream society like we see today it becomes a lethal and destructive societal force as we are witnessing which eventually leads to a complete breakdown of moral/ethics, the nuclear family model and a sustainable fertility rate which again is leading us to the extinction of Europeans.
Breivik goes on to rant about STDs and no-fault divorce, before moving on to another favorite obsession of manosphere misogynists, the supposed sexual “capital” of manipulative women:
Females have a significantly higher proportion of erotic capital than males due to biological differences (men have significantly more prevalent sexual urges than females and are thus easily manipulated). The female manipulation of males has been institutionalised during the last decades and is a partial cause of the feminisation of men in Europe. This highly underestimated factor has contributed to the creation and rise of the matriarchal systems which are now dominating Western European countries. …
He also blames women for the spread of what he considers evil “cultural Marxism” and multiculturalism:
Fact: 60-70% of all cultural Marxists/multiculturalists are women. This partly explains why the gradual feminist revolution is directly linked to the implementation of multiculturalist doctrines. These feminist cultural Marxists do not only want more benefits and rights for themselves. They want it all, and have more or less been awarded with everything they could ever dream of achieving. They now have complete matriarchal supremacy domestically and exercise substantial influence in politics. …
Obsessed with the purported danger that Islam will outbreed the West, Breivik offers an assortment of creepy solutions to increase the fertility of Western whites. (It’s not altogether clear to me if these are all his own views, but they certainly are consistent with what he says elsewhere in the manifesto.) After suggesting limiting contraception and banning abortion, Breivik offers this “solution”:
Discourage women in general to strive for full time careers. This will involve certain sexist and discriminating policies but should increase the fertility rate by up to 0,1-0,2 points.
Women should not be encouraged by society/media to take anything above a bachelor’s degree but should not be prevented from taking a master or PhD. Males on the other hand should obviously continue to be encouraged to take higher education – bachelor, master and PhD. …
And then he’s back on his “Sex and the City” hobbyhorse:
Discourage women in general to strive for “sex and the city/Madonna” lifestyles. The mass media are currently actively glorifying/encouraging “sex and the city/Madonna” lifestyles which involves the glorification of casual sex, multiple sex partners and generally an extremely liberal individualistic lifestyle hostile to the traditional nuclear family values. As such, the non-restrictions of the mass media is the main cause for our unsustainable fertility rate of 1,5.
The indirect media/government glorification campaigns through individual artists, various series, movies and media coverage in general should reflect this new shift (no more glorification of “sex and the city lifestyles” or equivalent portrayals. No longer should women be pressured to have equal success regarding their career as males.
Womens “new role” should be actively illustrated and glorified through series, movies and commercials. This will involve significant restrictions in media freedoms and rights. These restrictions and reforms will result in an increased fertility rate of approximately 0,2-0,3 points.
The end result for implementing the above reforms would be an increase in the fertility rate up from 1,5 to approximately 2,1-2,4 which would be sustainable.
However, this will also involve significant restrictions in women’s rights and media rights.
And, like many in the manosphere, he also holds out hope for “artificial wombs,” which would of course reduce the inconvenience of relying on women to cooperate with his plans.
Large chunks of the manifesto consist of cut-and-pasted blog posts from an anonymous far-right Norwegian blogger known as Fjordman, whose now defunct blog can be found here. (According to Andrew Brown in the Guardian article linked to above, Breivik and Fjordman are not the same person.)
Here are some selections from the Fjordman posts that Breivik includes in his manifesto. Again, much of this will seem very familiar to many of you, I am sure.
For all the talk about “girl power” and “women kicking ass” which you see on movies these days, if the men of your “tribe” are too weak or demoralised to protect you, you will be enslaved and crushed by the men from other “tribes” before you can say “Vagina Monologues”. Which means that if you break down men’s masculinity, their willingness and ability to defend themselves and their families, you destroy the country. That’s exactly what Western women have done for the last forty years. ….
The male protective instinct doesn’t take action because Scandinavian women have worked tirelessly to eradicate it, together with everything else that smacks of traditional masculinity. Because of this, feminism has greatly weakened Scandinavia, and perhaps Western civilisation as whole. …
Didn’t feminists always claim that the world would be a better place with women in the driver’s seat, because they wouldn’t sacrifice their own children? Well, isn’t that exactly what they are doing now? Smiling and voting for parties that keep the doors open to Muslim immigration, the same Muslims who will be attacking their children tomorrow? …
Misandry, the hatred of men, isn’t necessarily less prevalent than misogyny, the hatred of women. The difference is that the former is much more socially acceptable.
If all oppression comes from Western men, it becomes logical to try weakening them as much as possible. If you do, a paradise of peace and equality awaits us at the other side of the rainbow. Well congratulations to Western European women. You’ve succeeded in harassing and ridiculing your own sons into suppressing many of their masculine instincts. To your surprise, you didn’t enter a feminist Nirvana, but paved the way for an unfolding Islamic hell. ….
Feminists claim that the reason why women haven’t been as numerous in politics and science as men is due to male oppression of women. Some of this is true. But it is not the whole story. Being male means having to prove something, to achieve something, in a greater way than it does for women. In addition to this, the responsibility for child rearing will always fall more heavily on women than on men. ….
it was in fact the women who started this whole “single is best” culture that now permeates much of the West. Since women initiate most divorces and a divorce can potentially mean financial ruin for a man, it shouldn’t really be too surprising that many men hesitate to get involved at all. … At the same time, women during the past few decades have made it a lot easier to have a girlfriend without getting married. So women make it riskier to get married and easier to stay unmarried, and then they wonder why men “won’t commit?” Maybe too many women didn’t think all this feminism stuff quite through before jumping on the bandwagon? …..
The elaborate welfare state model in Western Europe is frequently labelled as “the nanny state,” but perhaps it could also be named “the husband state.” Why? Well, in a traditional society, the role of men and husbands is to physically protect and financially provide for their women. In our modern society, part of this task has simply been “outsourced” to the state, which helps explain why women in general give a disproportionate support to high taxation and pro-welfare state parties. The state has simply become a substitute husband, upheld by taxation of their ex-husbands. ….
Radical feminism has bred suspicion and hostility, not cooperation. And what’s more, it has no in any way eradicated the basic sexual attraction between feminine women and masculine men. If people do not find this in their own country, they travel to another country or culture to find it, which in our age of globalisation is easier than ever. A striking number of Scandinavian men find their wives in East Asia, Latin America or other nations with a more traditional view of femininity, and a number of women find partners from more conservative countries. …
radical feminism has been one of the most important causes of the current weakness of Western civilisation, both culturally and demographically. Feminists, often with a Marxist world view, have been a crucial component in establishing the suffocating public censorship of Political Correctness in Western nations. They have also severely weakened the Western family structure, and contributed to making the West too soft and self-loathing to deal with aggression from Muslims. …
Well, after two generations of Second Wave Feminism, Ms. Willis and Ms. Beauvoir have had their way: The West has skyrocketing divorce rates and plummeting birth rates, leading to a cultural and demographic vacuum that makes us vulnerable to a take-over by… Islam. And feminists still aren’t satisfied. ….
Feminists claim that women have been victims of men, that men have oppressed women for centuries and that the sexes are equal. Denying this will result in the smears “misogynist” and “male chauvinist pig”. But equalising the sexes has led to a crippling feminisation of Western society … portraying women as oppressed victims and the equals of males is one example of how the pursuit of equality is being used to destroy our society and undermine – and therefore be in conflict with – Mother nature. ….
I’ll continue going through the manifesto to see what else I can find. If any of you decide to do the same thing, and find other selections in it that you find telling, please post them in the comments below.
I would also like to find specific writings on manosphere blogs – posts or comments – that directly parallel these selections from Breivik’s manifesto. If any of you are willing to help, again, please post your findings in the comments below, along with URLs to the sources of the manosphere quotes.
Ideas have consequences. Vile, hateful ideas have vile, hateful consequences.
For more on Breivik’s misogyny, see this post on Red Light Politics.
PZ Myers has more on Breivik’s noxious ideology, including his hatred of atheists, here.
Posted on July 24, 2011, in antifeminism, evil women, marriage strike, men who should not ever be with women ever, MGTOW, misandry, misogyny, MRA, oppressed men, racism, reactionary bullshit, the spearhead, violence against men/women, western women suck. Bookmark the permalink. 744 Comments.
Considering the initial spikes of time was well before the introduction of no fault divorce, NWOaf’s claims once again lack any merit.
The shooter is calling for not only restriction of artists, he is also expecting government intervention to do so. So NWOaf, why are you not condemning this guy?
@Holly Pervocracy
Fuck no Holly, I feel great about myself.
Feminism is a vile, hateful, communist disease. Why wouldn’t I feel great for exposing this vilification of every good thing men have ever done?
I mean history is literally being rewritten as womens oppression, just like your great leaders declared. Women were locked in the home for thousands of years, right? The men supposedly had choices. Well they didn’t. Men worked and died in dangerous jobs, they had responsibilities not choices. Women were never oppressed.
The term, “Our founding fathers” has been removed from history books. The term father is stricken from history books, they’re now the founders. The international child passport has the name of the mother on the first line, the childs name on the second line and the third line is, “other.” Father is now a dirty word.
Feminism is literally the cause of everything wrong with society today.
He condemned the guy’s mom. Which is about all anyone can expect from the subbie.
NWO, you’re disgusting.
There’s a person on the other end of that keyboard, right? Someone who, like, cares about the whole murder thing, and doesn’t just see this as a great opportunity to spit out talking points at fucking random?
Yeah, passorts, what the fuck ever.
You’re really not much of a human being, are you?
jumbofish –
“Inhumane”? Really? And I suppose the world would be far worse off if Breivik had been medicated for his paranoid derangement. You know, exactly what aws is revealing here.
It’s not about whether someone’s views align with mine, it’s about whether they align with reality.
But by all means attempt to shame me, because “feminism is satanism” is apparently not over your precious line. I’ll just ignore you, and continue to mock this toxic bullshit wherever I see it.
Yeah, all these things are totes correlated. Yep.
This guy is awful, and his beliefs are vile. I’m so sad for his victims. Terrorism- domestic or otherwise- is a terrible, scary thing, and a thing all too many groups see as the answer.
Holly,
“Someone who, like, cares about the whole murder thing, and doesn’t just see this as a great opportunity to spit out talking points at fucking random?”
Strange thing to say when this blog post is taking the great opportunity to spit out talking points about how bad the MRA is / how much this guy is like an MRA member / somehow transfer the horrors and demency of these murders to the MRA.
Still I think NWOslave is off here. But more likely, the whole blog post is off. This could be framed as “christian goes against muslims” or whatever, since this guy was just crazy.
@Holly Pervocracy
I’m a fantastic human, how about you? Hows the hate movement going?
Hey, answer me these simple question.
How could a company become a multi-million dollar company by selling shirts with slogans like, “boys are stupid throw rocks at them” if society didn’t demand the hatred of boys/men?
How could a mutitude of various charity organisation that helped only girls/women while deliberately excluding boys/men exist if society didn’t demand the hatred of boys/men?
How could countless State agencies exist the cater only to girls/women while deiberately excluding boys/men even when women are already overrepresented in medical care, education, job placement, welfare, teachers, ect. if society didn’t demand the hatred of boys/men?
How could Businesses be forced into quotas where the men need not apply if society didn’t demand the hatred of boys/men?
Ya wanna know where that hatred comes from? Look in the mirror, feminist.
@NWO:
How could a company make millions of dollars by selling a shirt that reads “I can run faster horny than you can scared,” if society doesn’t have an ingrained hatred of girls/women?
How could a gaming group get away with banning women “so that women don’t get offended” if society didn’t have an ingrained hatred of girl/woman gamers?
NWO, if a society existed where men were constantly being marginalized/opressed, would you encourage male-only programs to counteract that opression? If so, congrats, you may as well become a feminist. If not… I guess you like being a slave.
@NWO:
Oh yeah, almost forgot.
THIS GUY KILLED OVER 90 PEOPLE AND YOU TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO RANT AT HOW MEN ARE SO OPPRESSED BY WOMEN! WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?
*ahem* Right. On with the show then.
NWO, those are fucking random questions.
They’ve got shit-all to do with shit except the general fact that women exist.
“Ack, I actually want accoutability. I must be a troll.”
You want accountability…for the mass-murderer’s mum. And feminism for allowing his mum to have custody of him. Not accountability for the mass-murderer for his actions. You have a messed up understanding of accountability, ‘snowflake’.
Iris (I hope that’s an ok way to shorten it?) I think the problem is that advocating for what amounts to torture for people who see reality differently to you (and it’s impossible to ascertain what reality is objectively) is problematic and lends itself to abuse. I know you weren’t advocating a revolution in which evil feminists take over the world and tie people up and force medication on them…but it’s still not a great idea.
Also Yohan – the manifesto demonstrates that it’s not just about Christians against Muslims – and I think that David is pointing out a gap in some of the coverage of this guy’s reasoning (all I’ve heard on the news, and admittedly I don’t watch much) is the race/religion based analysis. I think it’s worth pointing out that he is misogynist in a way that is familiar to us too. It goes somewhere to demonstrate how toxic this logic is.
Making it about child-custody disputes is, however, troll logic.
kirbywarp,
This guy killed 90 people, and this blog post is to rant about how bad the MRA is. Even when the guy wasnt one.
YOHAMI – This blog post is to point out that the guy was–as part of his insane-conspiracy-theorist package–a raging misogynist who subscribed to a lot of the same beliefs as MRAs.
It’s not “mass murder, also we hate MRAs,” it’s exploring a substantive connection.
Does poverty hurt women and children worse than men?
Does global warming hurt women and children worse than men?
Does poor education hurt women and children worse than men?
Does starvation hurt women and children worse than men?
Does war hurt women and children worse than men?
Everyday the MSM tells us how women are disproportionally hurt worse than men in catastrophies, poverty, education. It really doesn’t even matter what the event is, women and children always suffer worse.
Why not men and children for starters? I guess barring a man from his children so women can be caller the primary caretakers answers that.
So why do women always suffer more? Could it be the hatred of boys/men?
I’ll bet all you’ll see in the MSM is women suffering at their loss for this incident. Not one single man will be shown by the MSM. Any takers?
Yohami – the blog post was about really huge parallels between MRAs and this guy. David didn’t make any value-judgment statements that I can see, unless you think calling the ‘manosphere’ misogynist is a contentious characterisation.
I think the most important connection is, as David says: “Ideas have consequences. Vile, hateful ideas have vile, hateful consequences.”
When it’s confined to the Internet and confined to words, the MRM is merely annoying and sort of amusing. But some people take it seriously. Some people internalize these ideas, and make them part of their belief system, and they take that hatred and instead of pouring it out onto the Internet, they take it into reality. And then they do horrible things.
The MRM is, when its ideas take root in someone sufficiently unhinged and violent, dangerous.
We don’t have proof, and we’re not claiming, that this guy was an MRA, or that misogyny was his only problem. Far from it. But we are pointing out that lunatic-fringe hatred on the Internet is not benign, not a joke. It has the potential to spark very real-life violence.
@YOHAMI:
*ahem* “Norweigian terrorist Anders Breivik’s manifesto reveals him to be a rabid antifeminist with views strikingly similar to many MRAs”
and the conclusion.
“Ideas have consequences. Vile, hateful ideas have vile, hateful consequences”
The blog post is about how close the guys views are to some other MRA screed. It notably does not say “See? This guy was an MRA, all MRAs must want to shoot up a bunch of people!” He’s noting similarities between his writing and other writing by MRAs.
This is a far cry from launching into a tirade about something that is completely unrelated (like how women are so damned evil and all). NWO isn’t even talking about the guy in question, he’s just doing his own little thing. Over at pharyngula, which deals mostly with science and religious issues, he focused on all the sections related to hatred of atheism. And that is just as relevant there as David’s post is here.
Ahh, so many ninjas. Oh well.
@NWO:
The question is, do any of those things affect women more than men. But again, if you wish to rant, there is a perfectly good forum where you can go on for as long as you wish. This blog, and this topic in particular, isn’t the best place to make your point.
NWO, a personal question.
Do you feel, on any level, bad that this happened?
Does it make you feel any sense of sorrow?
Leave aside whose fault it is or what kind of crazy the guy was or how the media will react or whether international passports give men their due manly respect–does mass murder upset you?
Or do you feel exactly the same about this post as you do when David posts about MRAs with skidmarks in their undies?
Lyn, maybe you are not, but live from Holly:
“The MRM is, when its ideas take root in someone sufficiently unhinged and violent, dangerous.”
See? seriously wtf.
Holly, you just got outraged that NWO gives shit about the murders and uses this occasion to fill his own agenda, only so you can do the same.
I´ve only spent three days on this blog and Im already sick.
@Holly Pervocracy
“NWO, those are fucking random questions.
They’ve got shit-all to do with shit except the general fact that women exist.”
No Holly, you can’t/won’t answer because you enjoy the hatred of men in society. It must be quite a cozy feeling to know you can revile and demean men while remaining aloof to any criticism. And has nothing to do with women existing. What a poor arguement.
How nice it must be for the perfect ones. You could of course admit that the hatred of men is quite acceptable, but you won’t. You like it and you want more.
@Holly Pervocracy
You’ve answered none of my questions, I’ll answer none of yours.
Does that insult your sense of superiority?
How vile of me. Not leaping to respond to you. Pray forgive me.
NWOslave, do you feel at all sorry about the 90+ people killed? Do you feel that any responsibility lies with the man who did it?
@YOHAMI:
If you can’t see the difference between taking this guy’s manifesto, looking through it, and noting the simliarities to other stuff you’ve seen, and taking a thread about a murder and posting a long copy/pasta that not only has shit-all to do with the topic, but implies that somehow women are responsible for what a batshit-crazy man did…
And you feel sick about it… Honestly there is no help for you. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
NWO doesn’t want to admit that MURDER IS BAD.
I feel like he’s found a new personal low.
kirbywarp,
Theres something called “association”. If tomorrow theres a woman who kills some people and leaves a diary where she talks about girl power, do you think its sane to link her to feminism?
Of course some insane people will link her and start mumbling like holly:
“when these believes gain root in unstable individuals feminism can be dangerous”
Bullshit. Pure bullshit.
Here is how I see it: at no point does the blog post implies that most MRA’s would actually do what Brevik did. But, I think it’s pretty clear that most MRA’s share much of their ideology with Brevik. I don’t see how pointing that out trivializes what Brevik did. Let’s be realistic: there are a lot of hateful people who will not plant bombs or shoot into crowds simply because they are cowardly or feel they have too much to lose. But they’ll be more than happy to encourage someone like Brevik into doing such deeds and later revel in them and glorify him. After all, didn’t they overwhelmingly justify George Sodini’s actions?
Of course he doesn’t. Not when he can blame the guy’s mother. Which… really?
kirbywarp,
What makes me sick is the level of the dialog here.
“Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.”
Thats so kind of you.
YOHAMI – Feminism is not the morally-equivalent equal-opposite of the MRM.
The MRM is a hate movement against women; feminism is not a hate movement against men.
The logical end point of much MRM rhetoric is for a doomed, surrounded man to lash out against the women who are tearing him down. The logical end point of most feminist rhetoric is a society of gender equality.
I´ve only spent three days on this blog and Im already sick.
I wonder how he’ll feel in another three days… or five… or however long he plans to stay here XD We should track his progress…
specifically what symptoms are you feeling? :D Headache? Nausea?
Then we’ll ask him again tomorrow…
Maybe it’s the beginning of like a zombie outbreak :O
Manboobz: The New Umbrella Corporation! xD
Also what’s NWO up to now? o_O Not caring about shooting victims? o_O (I haven’t read back yet)
Hey NWO, what’s going on? :D Are you not caring about shooting victims, or was that last comment about you incorrect? xD
@YOHAMI:
“Thats so kind of you.”
I could have wished the opposite. It was quite kind. :)
“Theres something called “association”. If tomorrow theres a woman who kills some people and leaves a diary where she talks about girl power, do you think its sane to link her to feminism?”
If feminism’s main proponents constantly talked about mowing down guys, or about how all men should die, or so on, then yes. It would not only be sane, but necessary. Of course, this isn’t the case with feminism. At this point, it is the case with the MRM. The two movements are in no way symmetrical.
@Holly Pervocracy
“When it’s confined to the Internet and confined to words, the MRM is merely annoying and sort of amusing.”
Do you find equal custody merely annoying and sort of amusing?
Do you find equal opportunity not equal outcome merely annoying and sort of amusing?
Do you find State discrimination against men merely annoying and sort of amusing?
Do you find business discrimination merely annoying and sort of amusing?
Do you find charity organisation discrimination merely annoying and sort of amusing?
Do you find equal custody merely annoying and sort of amusing?
Do you find education discrimination merely annoying and sort of amusing?
Do you find criminal sentencing merely annoying and sort of amusing?
This is an example of the hatred of men you take for granted.
Those bad ole MRAs, what will they want next?
Holly,
“Feminism is not the morally-equivalent equal-opposite of the MRM.”
“MRM is a hate movement against women”
That sounds identical to what the MRM says about feminism, and its not a coincidence.
@NWO:
Seriously, we have a wonderful little forum where you can go on and on to your heart’s content. You don’t need to go off topic here.
Here’s a link, just in case you don’t know where it is.
http://manboobz.forummotion.com/
@the rest:
Dang, I need to write faster. I’m being ninja’d like crazy! XD Love you guys.
“Theres something called “association”. If tomorrow theres a woman who kills some people and leaves a diary where she talks about girl power, do you think its sane to link her to feminism?
If feminism consistently advocated that men are subhuman and should be reduced to the status of cattle, if feminism was an ideology whose end goal was to remove men from public life and deprive them of legal rights as individuals — then it would be sane to link such an act to feminism. But as it is, feminism doesn’t advocate that, so if a self-avowed feminist killed some people in the name of feminism, it would hardly indict feminism (but that would not be a problem for MRA’s, of course). This analogy does not work, however. Unlike feminism, MRM’s core ideology does include the idea that only one gender is fully human, that women should have the status of chattel, be barred from public life, and have no legal rights as individuals. And, when a movement advocates that half of human race should not enjoy any civil rights that the other half takes for granted, it is not at all surprising if a man who sympathizes with that movement deprives some people of their lives. Dehumanization — it’s the first step towards mass murder. And the MRM dehumanizes women, gays and minorities like no tomorrow.
@Holly I was wondering this last night (not as a rhetorical question, as a real one),, this makes it Lepine, Sodini and POSSIBLY (dunno haven’t read his thing yet) this guy… (maybe others? I dunno) and I know I know, they were all mentally ill ppl who took an ideology seriously when they shouldn’t have and killed ppl in it’s name :( but how many feminist equivalents have their been? I would assume if there’s been many, then MRAs would have thrown it in our face every day… but then I haven’t been on MBZ as long as others xD
@YOHAMI:
You could go to the forums as well. Now that we have two claims, lets see which one is right. Obviously either side can claim whatever, but only one can prove it. But lets not do this here, alright?
If tomorrow theres a woman who kills some people and leaves a diary where she talks about girl power, do you think its sane to link her to feminism?
That’s basically what I’m asking. xD Feminism has been around for a much longer time than the MRM… but that sounded like a theoretical question… are there spree killers who have left behind a manifesto about girl power? o:
@Amused
“Here is how I see it: at no point does the blog post implies that most MRA’s would actually do what Brevik did. But, I think it’s pretty clear that most MRA’s share much of their ideology with Brevik.”
And feminism shares their ideology with dworkin. daly and solanas.
See, I can do that as well. Oh but thats right, you’re perfect.
kirbywarp,
“If feminism’s main proponents constantly talked about mowing down guys, or about how all men should die, or so on, then yes.”
Duh. Because feminism DOESNT do any of that.
I think this a really clear example of how anxiety about racial purity/strength relates to anxieties about women’s autonomy – note that women are the ones who need to change their behaviour in order to ensure both the purity and numbers of a given race. I doubt very much that manifesto has something in it about using the media to pressure men into having sex and babies with white women – even though logically it takes two to make babies. But magically men will be happy in traditional and intraracial relationships as soon as women are back in their place…
I meant that that scenario sounded like it was referring to a hypothetical situation and not an actual one… so.. it is like it hasn’t happened yet… so I’m curious xD
“And feminism shares their ideology with dworkin. daly and solanas.”
I’m seeing a lack of mass murderers in that list. Just sayin’.
I stood up from my desk after work today with a bee in my bonnet about NSW and shared parenting laws. When I stepped outside the office, there were two kangaroos lolling on the lawn. Suddenly, I was having a good day.
I mean NWO not NSW
Ami – There’s Valerie Solanas, sort of.
That’s about it.
But the thing that gets to me is that she was not a good feminist. She was not acting in accordance with any mainstream feminist thought. Whereas guys who take the MRA seriously and attack people… are kind of doing what the MRM supports. All that bullshit about “taking up arms?” About “holding women accountable for their evil?” These guys are right in line with mainstream (if there is such a thing) MRA thought.
I mean really.. for the “well MRAs think Feminists are a hate group, you guys are the same thing!” thing…
Christians believe that Atheists are a giant hate group, that they worship the devil, that they want to genocide everybody who doesn’t think like them. The MRM can say whatever they want, but they only rarely can get the words of a Feminist to back them up, and even then its usually either a really radical feminist with whom nearly all other feminists disagree, or an utter miscomprehension of the quote.
Whereas you could as David to find some hateful MRA screed, well liked by the community, and he’d be happy to provide you with plenty of proof that MRAs, if not the MRM itself, are a hate group. Sitting back in your chair and saying “You guys are all the same” is intellectually dishonest, lazy, and honestly not worth the effort of debunking.
“If feminism’s main proponents constantly talked about mowing down guys, or about how all men should die, or so on, then yes.”
Duh. Because feminism DOESNT do any of that.
Um, yeah. What the hell feminism are you reading?
(For bonus points, link me to ANYTHING other than the SCUM Manifesto or that one “Dear Men” post that you guys always link. If feminists are so violent, you’d think you’d have more than two examples.)
“Let’s be realistic: there are a lot of hateful people who will not plant bombs or shoot into crowds simply because they are cowardly or feel they have too much to lose. But they’ll be more than happy to encourage someone like Brevik into doing such deeds and later revel in them and glorify him. After all, didn’t they overwhelmingly justify George Sodini’s actions?”
Amused hit the nail in the head. In no way is what David doing the same as NWO’s bullshit.
@Holly Pervocracy
“But the thing that gets to me is that she was not a good feminist. She was not acting in accordance with any mainstream feminist thought.”
And this guy isn’t a good example of an MRA yet you call him a typical MRA.
That’d be the hatred of men you take for granted.
Amused: “Dehumanization — it’s the first step towards mass murder. And the MRM dehumanizes women, gays and minorities like no tomorrow.”
Word!
@NWO:
Where in this whole topic did anyone of us feminists call him a typical MRA? At all?
NWO: Still unwilling to let feminists pressure him into a controversial, possibly compromising anti-murder stance.
Duh. Because feminism DOESNT do any of that.
I’ll assume that’s supposed to be sarcastic…. so you mean that we DO. o:
I remember reading a comment on the Spearhead about a guy planning out how it would be possible to kill police officers responding to DV calls w/ a high powered sniper rifle, and poison gas malls to kill women, and poison the drinking supply of girls school and telling others that it could be done v easily…
granted I haven’t read every single feminist site ever… but I don’t remember that kind of planning out how to kill human beings (I suspect NWO is gonna bring out his abortion hobby horse, but we know that’s not the comparison here… we’re talking about the planning of the poisoning, shooting, etc of grown human beings) in feminist sites or comments o_o
Holly, lyn, etc
My point is that you are transferring the horror of the murders to the MRM
“Dehumanization — it’s the first step towards mass murder. And the MRM dehumanizes women, gays and minorities like no tomorrow.”
And so on. Why deny it?
Holly, theres your key.
Kyrby, dont need more evidence other than this thread.
That’s cease to exist, Breivik, cease to exist.
Jeez, if the guy’s going to live in an English-speaking country like Norway, he ought to learn to speak the language properly.
@NWOslave
And this guy isn’t a good example of an MRA yet you call him a typical MRA.
Do you consider him an MRA at all? o: like forget what he self-identifies as, do YOU consider him an MRA? :] personally…
@redlocker
How did I know it wouldn’t be long before someone brought in George Sodini as a typical example. Hey go back a thousand years or so. Wasn’t aristotle a bit misogynist as well? Well there ya have it. womens eternal victimhood. And where theres a victim theres an oppressor; MAN.
I wonder… David presents all sorts of MRA extremism here and mocks them… I even make MAGYC CARDS of them (and us xD ) which makes me pretty extreme and mentally unstable prolly…
I wonder if the trolls here and other MRAs have ever worried that we’re gonna snap and start killing MRAs/men soon? o:
@ NWO:
“[b] Do you find equal custody merely annoying and sort of amusing? [/b]
Do you find equal opportunity not equal outcome merely annoying and sort of amusing?
Do you find State discrimination against men merely annoying and sort of amusing?
Do you find business discrimination merely annoying and sort of amusing?
Do you find charity organisation discrimination merely annoying and sort of amusing?
[b] Do you find equal custody merely annoying and sort of amusing? [/b]
Do you find education discrimination merely annoying and sort of amusing?
Do you find criminal sentencing merely annoying and sort of amusing?”
Why mention equal custody twice? Is it twice as important to you as all the other issues?
@ kirbywarp:
Better debug your program, Kirby. It’s glitching again.
I never mention him, I was calling out you. Besides medication doesn’t solve all mental issues, the dude clearly needed more than just medication.
Still a mra could say the exact same thing about you, you should be locked up and medicated because you don’t align with their reality.
I have no problem with you mocking aws, I think he is vile, its when you make inhuman threats that I’m bothered. Its not ok even if you hate his guts. Don’t be surprised if I call you out it for your own toxic bullshit.
What’s the debate here btw? o_O Whether feminism is just as bad as the MRM and likely to cause the same amount of death and spree killings from unstable subscribers of their beliefs? o_O Or… something… else? xD
Like is it that the MRM is not bad… or is it the MRM is bad okay, but feminism is JUST as bad o_O
Are we bringing ppl up, or bringing ppl down? xD
“Dehumanization — it’s the first step towards mass murder. And the MRM dehumanizes women, gays and minorities like no tomorrow.”
Contradict anything that falls from a feminists mouth and it’s labeled dehumanizing. Hold them accountable for the laws they enacted and thats dehumanizing. That doesn’t work anymore!
Didn’t marc say samething along those line? xD
Apparently we only have issues w/ Sodini cuz he’s a man too xD Like Aristotle (who we HATE ALSO RIGHT GIRLS!?) xD
Sry, I’m just getting back into the barrel xD My rodeo cat hat was in the wash :D
@Ami:
I think there are two debates here.
1. NWO is right about everything, and all women and feminists are evil, with vague ties to somehow causing this murdering spree to happen.
2. YOHAMI is right about everything, especially about how both the MRM and Feminism are equal hate groups, or something… Either way we are wrong, and make him sick, and other nonsense. Also apparently that tying a violent manifesto to violent rhetoric in the MRM is completely unfair.
False equivalence, YOHAMI. And are you seriously saying that the comments here are proof that Feminism is violent? Really?
Sorry, but that is impossibly pedantic and dishonest.