Atheist Elevator Redux
Found on the Men's Rights subreddit on Reddit
Here, found on Men’s Rights Reddit, is a “demotivational” poster that illustrates just why Rebecca Watson’s comments about that now-famous elevator incident, and the ensuing discussions that erupted amongst feminists online (and here, in our longest thread ever), were actually, you know, necessary: whoever made this evidently thinks that the very notion that a RAPIST would ask someone out for coffee first is so inherently and self-evidently hilarious that you don’t even have to explain why it’s so hilarious.
Never mind that, er, rapists often DO invite their future victims out for coffee, to the movies, out for a kebab, etc, etc first. Never mind that if some hypothetical woman had accepted a 4 AM “coffee in my room” invite and been raped, many of the very same guys now ranting about how she’s calling all men rapists would be blaming her for being a “slut” who “was asking for it” by agreeing to said “coffee” date.
(And I’ll just note that Watson did not in fact accuse her admirer in the elevator of being a rapist or even a creep; she simply mentioned that propositioning someone in an elevator at 4 AM is a creepy thing to do.)
And yes, that is Richard Dawkins in the picture. I’m not sure why someone who presumably agrees with what Dawkins said about the case would want to feature him in a poster next to the word “rapists,” but what do I know? In any case, Dawkins is now being hailed as a hero by more than a few of the regulars in the Men’s Rights subreddit — not for his scientific work, or his science writings, or even his atheist activism, but for his douchebaggery towards Watson. The Flying Spaghetti Monster works in mysterious ways, I guess.
Speaking of which — the mysterious ways thing, I mean — can anyone explain the logic behind this comment to me?
Specifically, could you explain the bit about “smack[ing] the shit out of” feminists who’ve stood up for Rebecca Watson? It seems to me that if you’re trying to make the point that Watson and her supporters are reacting hysterically to an innocent invitation to coffee, and that women have no reason to be fearful or concerned or even just mildly creeped out by men propositioning them in elevators at 4 am, it does not exactly help your case to talk about doing physical harm to feminists (or children, for that matter). Doesn’t that suggest, rather, that women should be concerned about strange men in elevators — because of the off chance that one of these strange men could turn out to be, you know, the sort of dude who posts shit like that on the internet?
Posted on July 11, 2011, in misogyny, MRA, rape, rapey, reddit, sluts, that's not funny!. Bookmark the permalink. 267 Comments.
Women must terrify you Ion.
I still want to know why it all comes down to looks for you, Ion.
Because it does. I know you keep protesting it, but I’m convinced that if she’d been attracted to this guy, her next-day blog would’ve said something like “this cute guy who’d been eyeing me all night finally caught up to me in the elevator, said he’d been interested in my talk and asked me to have some ‘coffee’ in his room. Needless to say, it was a wild night!” But she didn’t find him attractive, so he became ‘creepy’ instead. End of story.
To be honest it makes no difference to me, but it’s amusing to see how worked-up some people can get about it.
“To be honest it makes no difference to me, but it’s amusing to see how worked-up some people can get about it.”
Like you, you mean?
Honestly, if a Brad Pitt look-a-like asked me to his room at 4am, in an elevator, I would still say no. It’s not romantic, it’s not attractive and if this guy can’t approach a woman in a way that would make her feel comfortable, why would she want to start any kind of relationship with him?
Women must terrify you Ion.
If by “women” you mean “certain women” and by “terrify” you mean “mildly annoy”, then yes.
“To be honest it makes no difference to me, but it’s amusing to see how worked-up some people can get about it.”
It certainly is interesting to see how worked up some people can get about a woman setting boundaries. Jesus.
Sort of on-topic for the post, not so much with the thread, I told my boyfriend about this and he said it was creepy as fuck for *anyone* to proposition another person at 4 A.M. in an elevator. His exact words were “…That’s so creepy. It doesn’t matter who’s asking, I just wouldn’t want to get robbed and murdered in some stranger’s hotel room.”
Hyperbole? Yes. But nevertheless, that shit can happen to anyone. Wouldn’t any of these MRA’s be creeped out if a stranger asked them to their room for coffee? Alone? At 4 in the morning?!
I don’t even know how this turned into such a big deal; this seems more like an everyone issue than a feminist-issue.
Oh, it’s more than mild annoyance. Otherwise you wouldn’t be here so often, talking out of your ass. We really get under your skin. Heh.
Except that leaves out every part of the story leading up to the elevator exchange, including the “please don’t hit on me” part and the “I’m tired and going to bed” part.
The 4am elevator invitation to his room part is bad enough by itself, but it’s all the stuff leading up to it that puts it in to particularly creepy territory.
You do have to realize that real life isn’t a Penthouse Forum letter.
Ion, try this on for size:
1. Propositioning a strange woman when you are alone with her in an enclosed space can be considered creepy behavior, although because women are individuals, mileage may vary on that.
1A. It is creepy because, as previously mentioned, this is a stranger. She doesn’t know you. You could be the nicest guy in the world, or you could be the kind of guy who is going to take a refusal very badly and possibly respond by attacking her.
1Aa. Expecting that she should assume that you are the former is paramount to expecting that she should assume all strange men are perfectly safe to be around.
1Ab. This is manifestly not true. Some strange men are not safe to be around, and she can’t tell just by looking which category you fall into.
1Ac. Therefore, this is essentially saying that she ought to prioritize your comfort over her personal safety. This is kind of an asshole move.
1B. Calling someone’s behavior creepy is not the same as calling that person a rapist. It is, however, saying that the behavior in question is setting off alarm bells in her head. Does she know for a fact that the guy is a rapist? Of course not. And she’d rather not find out that he is from personal experience. It’s better to reject a well-meaning guy who may honestly not know that his behavior is setting off alarm bells than to ignore the alarm bells and be raped.
1Ba. This does not, mind you, mean that she ought to be nasty in her rejection.
1Bb. Unless he fails to back off at the first ‘no’. Then all bets are off, because he has proven himself as someone who is not willing to take ‘no’ for an answer.
2. None of the above means that you can’t proposition strange women. Just don’t do it in an enclosed, isolated area where they couldn’t easily get away should you take it into your head to attack them. And don’t do it shortly after they’ve given a speech on how they don’t want to be propositioned.
Ion: She was creeped out, ergo (since “creepy” is subjective term) he was, at that point in time, being creepy. That doesn’t make him a creep.
She even said that, all things being as they were, she didn’t feel threatened, just put off (see again, all the things the EG failed to pay attention to).
Was rape a “distinct possibility”? Not as described. Was it a zero possibility? No. See above, in this post, where “smacking them around” is the “appropriate response” for women sharing their opinions of men.
Look at all the people, in response to various things she has written have said she ought/deserves to be raped. Could she know he wasn’t one of those people? No.
There is a security/military aphorism, “One cannot plan for what the threat/enemy will do, so one must plan for what they can do.
And, as keeps being pointed out; when a woman fails to act as if all men might be rapists (which, again, she; nor we, have said EG is,was, or aspired to be), she gets shamed, and villified, for not being proactive in her defense. So there isn’t any winning this one; engage in reasonably proactive thinking (and try to help guys out who might want to know how to approach a woman they are interested in, by telling them what sort of clues they might need to avoid being seen as creepy) and they are exploiting their, “privilege” (which privilege is the privilege of anyone to have feelings, and share them in public. I don’t see any rash of MRA types telling each other that ripping on the “skanks” who won’t put out for them is a bad thing: So there is some hypocrisy, and no small amount of “do as we say, not as we do” going on in this sausage fest of ire).
Ignore the creepy, and let guys think this is acceptable, and then get hit on more often; in ways that cause them to reject men, and be “cold bitches”, and “prickteases who won’t ‘put out’, after they get a guy all hot and bothered”.
Pretend that rape only happens in dark parking lots, and back alleys (while being mocked for not thinking any guy who approaches them is just curious about the way to the nearest 7-11 for a late night snack), and so get told they asked for it when they do accept the offer for a cup of coffee, and discover that coffee was a euphemism, and accepting it = wanted sex.
So do good-looking men never get told no, Ion? No matter the circumstances? Because that seems to be what you’re driving at, here. Circumstances never matter, just looks.
I mean, I already provided a link to [Michael Fassbender's][http://www.starpulse.com/news/index.php/2010/03/23/michael_fassbenders_ex_requests_restra] bad behavior and its consequences, but I can do it again.
Ha, code fail. My mind forgot to switch between the forum and the HTML needed here. :P
Except that leaves out every part of the story leading up to the elevator exchange, including the “please don’t hit on me” part and the “I’m tired and going to bed” part.
Except we both know those things only apply to the unattractive, aka ‘creeps’. Can’t count how many times I’ve heard a woman say she wants to be left alone when she actually meant she only wanted certain people paying attention to her.
Oh, it’s more than mild annoyance. Otherwise you wouldn’t be here so often, talking out of your ass. We really get under your skin. Heh.
Whatever you need to tell yourself. By the way, don’t you and your friends have 50 more posts to write telling me how inconsequential I am and how you’re just laughing at me and in no way trying to have the last word in some kind of sad attempt to feel superior and get to high-five each other over your arguing prowess? No way, you’re just laughing at me, really! It must be true because you keep saying it!
“Except that leaves out every part of the story leading up to the elevator exchange, including the “please don’t hit on me” part and the “I’m tired and going to bed” part.
“Except we both know those things only apply to the unattractive, aka ‘creeps’. Can’t count how many times I’ve heard a woman say she wants to be left alone when she actually meant she only wanted certain people paying attention to her.”
Damn, now we’re back to the old “women never actually mean it when they say “no” argument. Is this really where you want to go, Ion?
Pecunium: If I am walking home, late in the evening, through a less-than-reputable neighborhood, say one where people have been robbed before, and a black guy asks me for a light, should I be feeling threatened? Should that black man be admonished for approaching me?
Molly: This may offend your feminist sensibilities, but I’ve found that it’s usually much more useful and accurate to observe what women do rather than what they say. So yeah.
Also, the last I heard, Rebecca Watson is married, and as far as I know her marriage is monogamous. So, leaving aside the (very important) fact that women have the right to accept or refuse any proposition for whatever reason, and leaving aside everything she’d previously said about wanting to go to bed and not wanting to get hit on at conferences, all this “She totally would have done him if he was better looking” stuff still doesn’t ring true. At all.
That also leaves aside the fact that nobody, including Ion, knows that Elevator Guy wasn’t good looking.
“No way, you’re just laughing at me, really! It must be true because you keep saying it!”
I mean, the tagline of this blog *is* “Misogyny. I mock it.”
Has anyone here ever been on /b/, or spent a good amount of time on 4chan? I haven’t, but I think their existence argues that it’s entirely possible to post about something often and still be doing it completely for the lolz.
Pecunium: If I am walking home, late in the evening, through a less-than-reputable neighborhood, say one where people have been robbed before, and a black guy asks me for a light, should I be feeling threatened? Should that black man be admonished for approaching me?
It’s interesting how often racism and sexism go together.
“a black guy asks me for a light, should I be feeling threatened? Should that black man be admonished for approaching me?”
Better safe than sorry. Say you don’t smoke and keep walking. That way, this black guy won’t feel like he asked a light from a racist, and you can be safe in the knowledge that you won’t get knifed in a dark alley.
What’s black got to do with it? What does less than reputable have to with black? If I am in the neigborhood I grew up in, and I saw a black man late in the evening, I’d be worried for him, because (for all that it was less than reputable; for those who didn’t live there), it wasn’t a black neighborhood.
If I am in a bad neighborhood (such as the one I live in… two murders in the past year in walking distance of my house… on about 100 meters from my front door; while I was home), and someone is approaching me, at a time when situationally I am vulnerable, I am going to pay more attention to him.
If he crosses the street to ask me for a light, I’m going to tell people about how it. I might even make a blog post about it. I’ve done just that, in fact, about stupid drivers who didn’t know they were being stupid to motorcyclists.
Black is irrelevant in the scenario.
Black =/= Male in the equation. Yes, women can rape women. Statistically it’s almost a null set for the situation in question. But had the same scenario taken place with a women… creepy.
Propositioning people in elevators – high likelihood of creepy. Doing it at 0400, much higher. Doing it after they have said they are tired, and going to bed to sleep, higher still. Doing it after the person have a presentation on how that sort of this is creepy? Much higher Doing it when all that includes a discussion; for which one was present, after the presentation, about that very topic…. creepy and rude.
Johanna: Thanks for the lecture. Really I know all that. The point was to show the person doing something innocuous, and common; which isn’t appropriate for the context.
Johanna: Sorry, I made the mistake of thinking you were talking to me. Ion… well he might not know all that (though he will explain that he isn’t racist, which may be true, despite using a racist trope to make his example).
Haha. The lecture was for Ion. He seems to be really struggling with this issue.
and more apology for misspelling your name.
Well, Ion has just shot to the top of my personal “Men I Never Want To Be Alone With, Ever, Regardless Of The Circumstances” list.
That comment, Ion?
Pretty rapey.
A few things…
1) I see what you’re doing here.
2) The colour of the man’s skin is irrelevant. Everything else in your scenario there? Yes, you should feel threatened.
3) If you’re going to attempt to create scenarios where we’re either going to come across as racists or hypocrites, then you might want to compare statistics of black man on white man crime versus man on woman crime to see who has a more reasonable cause for concern.
Molly: This may offend your feminist sensibilities, but I’ve found that it’s usually much more useful and accurate to observe what women do rather than what they say. So yeah.
Maybe the answer isn’t that women suck; but that your personality is so repellent that many people, women included, would prefer to avoid you. I know I would drop any RL friend who was as bitter, hateful and misogynistic as you. In fact, I’ve done it several times.
Pecanium: Lol.No worries. People tend to put in the “h”. I never understood why. It’s kind of a European thing I guess.
Can’t count how many times I’ve heard a woman say she wants to be left alone when she actually meant she only wanted certain people paying attention to her.
Funny how you can read all women’s minds there Ion. Like you know that a woman wants to be left alone but when Stud McStudlington shows up she suddenly change her mind.
When it could be that the guy who looks like this is no less likely to get polite “no thank you” response then the guy who looks like this. What could be the key difference is one looks like he wants to kill you-the other does not.
By the way, those are both Anthony Perkins. Funny how much a difference an expression can make in a person’s visible perceived scary factor.
“Molly: This may offend your feminist sensibilities, but I’ve found that it’s usually much more useful and accurate to observe what women do rather than what they say. So yeah.”
So you think you’re justified in doing what you want, no matter what someone female says? What if they’re one of the small subset of women who actually mean it?
I mean, if I’m having sex with someone hot, and they say “No, don’t do X”, I’m going to stop, even if they have the hottest dick I’ve ever seen. Because if I push on, and they actually meant it, I’m raping them. Stopping when someone says “no” and them possibly missing out on an orgasm seems to be the lesser evil, when the alternative is me breaking their trust in me, or damaging them so that they will have difficulty having sex in the future.
Now, I *have* been in scenes where it’s been pre-negotiated that “no” doesn’t mean “no”, “banana” means “no”, so we can have the fun of playacting during sex. But this usually requires more communication and trust than you’d have with someone you just met in an elevator.
Stupid HTML fail.
Can’t count how many times I’ve heard a woman say she wants to be left alone when she actually meant she only wanted certain people paying attention to her.
Um, Ion? If you’re one of those people who women don’t want to pay attention to them, there’s a reason for that. From your posts on this thread, I’m pretty sure I know what the reason is. Juuuust sayin’.
Someday I think that Ion will discover Venn diagrams. He will then reject them as a fascist feminist plot.
You also seem to be unable to distinguish between disappointment and humiliation. This says more about you than about us.
his may offend your feminist sensibilities, but I’ve found that it’s usually much more useful and accurate to observe what women do rather than what they say. So yeah.
When I was younger and stupider I used this same type of logic and took advantage of a guy. His words were telling me “I’m not ready for sex, I’m still getting over my ex-girlfriend” but his erection was telling me “I want sex” and I kept pushing until he relented and had sex with me. You know what? THIS WAS FUCKING WRONG. I should have listened to his words. I lost a friend over the incident and I regret it greatly.
KristinMH: Well I’m just crushed. Does that mean our date is off, then?
Better safe than sorry. Say you don’t smoke and keep walking. That way, this black guy won’t feel like he asked a light from a racist, and you can be safe in the knowledge that you won’t get knifed in a dark alley.
That’s fine, but it doesn’t answer me. Should that man be told he’s guilty of approaching me and making me feel uncomfortable? Should I claim that?
“That’s fine, but it doesn’t answer me. Should that man be told he’s guilty of approaching me and making me feel uncomfortable? Should I claim that?”
I think Pecunium already answered this.
I actually have turned down people (white, black, male and female) who have tried to get my attention in places where I felt unsafe. They might have just been wanting a light, but I value my instincts more than their need.
Ok, I’m going to bed. It’s gotten somewhat boring and tedious, anyway, trying to keep up when I get 20 replies to every post. Posts which are, of course, totally wrong and being laughed at. Or something. Becuse you say so. Yet you keep replying. G’night!
Those certain people wouldn’t happen to be Non-creepy people, would they? Perhaps the “certain people” who believe the radical idea that women are people too? Perhaps the certain people who don’t say stuff like, “I worked up the nerve to talk to her, so b**** better put out!”
Awww…it must have been the photo of Anthony Perkins from Psycho that has scared off Ion.
“Ok, I’m going to bed. It’s gotten somewhat boring and tedious, anyway, trying to keep up when I get 20 replies to every post. Posts which are, of course, totally wrong and being laughed at. Or something. Becuse you say so. Yet you keep replying. G’night!”
Well, there was that time when Kirbywarp got wildly excited at the chance to debate a Creationist. I won’t argue that we take this super seriously, but you *could* argue that we have an unusual definition of “fun”. I mean, I often read gender theory to relax… :P
What’s truely amazing is that no matter how many times or howmany words are used to tell Ion he’s defending a creepy guy he’s going continue to
1) Defend creepy guy
*Because what do you feminists know? You have lady brains.
2) Continue to be creepy and defensive about being a creep
*Because what do you feminists know? You have lady brains.
Ion, are you even interested in approaching women? I mean, do you actually give a shit about how difficult it can be to approach women in the pursuit of a romantic and/or sexual relationship?
Or is this just an argument you want to win?
Ion,
If you have to switch out a non-privledged person (black guy asking for a light) for a privledged person (Elevator Guy propositioning) in order to make the comparison work, you have a serious problem with your metaphor.
How about, a young black guy is wandering home at night though a quiet neighborhood, and a cop cruiser pulls up next to him. The cop says, “What are you doing in these parts?”
See, the YBG doesn’t know if the cop is a great guy who just wants to help him home or if he’s there to harrass him. He probably feels a little uncomfortable, beyond what a white person would, due to the history of race relations between cops and YBGs. He legitimately has a good reason to be concerned for his own health and safety, and it wouldn’t be unlike the wariness that a woman might feel while alone in an elevator with a guy propositioning her.
And if the cop just leaves after YBG says, “Heading home,” YBG probably feels relief at the end of that awkward and potentially harmful situation. Being wary because you’ve been harrassed before is not the same as harboring an unfounded suspiscion of a group. It’s self-preservation.
Now, is the YBG more sympathetic than Rebecca Watson? Probably, because it’s actually considered pretty racist to just assume a black guy has no business in a residential area at night. Whereas it’s still considered fine and dandy for a woman to always be a potential romantic partner, even if she’s married and has already said she just wants to sleep.
“Ion, are you even interested in approaching women?”
Oh, yeah, wasn’t someone claiming he was gay a while back? That always confused me, since as far as I know Ion hasn’t made a statement either way.
I read gender theory to relax too! Also, comic books.
@Joanna
Johanna is the German spelling of your name, the French would be Jeanne, the Italian Giovanna. So yes, it’s kind of an European thing ;-).
Well, Molly Ren, I am wondering. I know that Marc-person alludes to being uninterested in women. I assume he’s just sort of being contrarian out of stupidity or boredom. And, clearly, NWO isn’t interested in approaching women.
But Ion seems different. And I am curious.
Nobinayamu: Winning is, for Ion, irrelevant. He want’s to spout off. Having done that he can claim the victory he thinks he’s had all along. I know you keep protesting it, but I’m convinced that … Like Aristotle and his wife’s teeth, or the “king bee”, he doesn’t need the facts because he’s already figured out the answers.
Everything else, so far as can be determined, he sees as mere commentary. We, however, persist in looking at the evidence, and the testimony of the actual participant, which brings to different conclusions.
Me, I think that, had she found him attractive there never would have been the scene in the elevator. Given the talk she had just given she’d have let him know; as an act of courtesy, since the speech, and the conversation would have caused the sort of man she might be interested in to refrain from making an advance in those circumstances, and she’d not want to miss out on the possibility of frolicsome good times (if that was her desire) because of that.
But that’s me. I’m used to women speaking their minds when they want to shag someone.
Which, by Ion’s reasoning, is code for if you’re hot, you can now ask him to your room for coffee no matter what time of night it is for him because that’s a reasonable thing to do instead of respecting what he just said and taking it at face value.
Ion has said he is interested in women. He has, in fact, said he wishes women were willing to express sexual interest so he wouldn’t have to work so hard to get laid. He’s also said PUA tricks have helped him in that regard.
I think it pretty much comes down to that EG hit on her:
1) After she had given a talk about women being sick of being hit on at cons
2) After she said she was tired and wanted to sleep
3) In an elevator
4) At 4am
5) And invited her back to his room instead of a public place.
If only ONE of those things had been true it’s super unlikely it would have been called “creepy” (still possible because those aren’t the only variables, but unlikely)
If two were true, depending on which two, most likely still not creepy.
But getting upwards of 3 of those things being true and we’re in uncomfortable territory. All FIVE things being true and you gotta wonder why they guy thought he’d have ANY chance of success.
Ion: It’s gotten somewhat boring and tedious, anyway, trying to keep up when I get 20 replies to every post.
Because you ask direct questions, which garner direct answers which you ignore, and then you repeat the questions as if not answered.
You don’t really have grounds to complain, much less to affect a wearying burden, since you worked to get those responses.
Oh sweet jeebus. Ion, if all the would-be rapists would wear obvious, permanent signs that say “Yes, I’m a rapist”, women would spend a lot less time analyzing for creep factor in conversations with non-sign-wearing awkward and socially inept men, even when it’s late and they are trapped alone with them.
So get on that, and everything will be much better.
What’s with all this conversation? I thought Futrelle invited me here for “coffee”. I been robbed I tells ya!
Amused said:
I think this is a point that bears repeating. A lot of guys react very very badly to being rejected. I thought it was pretty telling that Ion talked about “rejection/humiliation” earlier, almost as though they were the same thing, that any rejection is automatically humiliation. That’s certainly the way a non-negligible portion of guys see it. (And some proportion of women too, I imagine.)
Pecunium, I think you’re right; Ion is more interested in “spouting off” than providing any real sort of argument. And in that case, winning is irrelevant.
I kept up with the other thread about this, even though I stopped participating after the whole “USian” thing. I’ve read some of the other posts that have been sited. And what I cannot for the life of me understand is what any man who is really, truly interested in approaching women in an attempt to chat them up is complaining about?
Plymouth pointed it out early in the other thread but it bears repeating: Watson gave good advice. This blog mocks misogyny thus the issues of privilege and judgment and potential sexual assault are, naturally, going to be prominent in the discussion.
I believe I have a pretty good grasp of those issues. I even concur that the persistent defense of this man’s behavior, in the face of reasonable objections, elevates the whole thing from mere sexism to outright misogyny worthy of mocking.
But, I have to say, the whole thing seems so silly to me because when you set everything else aside, Rebecca Watson gave very good advice. Approaching a woman in an elevator at 4 o’clock in the morning and inviting her back to your hotel room is almost always going to produce failure for any man actually interested in getting to know that particular woman better and, possibly, seeing her naked.
What exactly are Ion and all the other men who are so worked up with this upset about? What are they defending? The right to strike out with women?
I’m confused.
@Nobinayamu:
“What exactly are Ion and all the other men who are so worked up with this upset about? What are they defending? The right to strike out with women?”
The right to ask anything of or say anything to any woman they want at any time they please, no matter how intrusive/upsetting/insulting/presumptuous it may be, plus the right to get the result of their choice no matter how the woman feels about it.
Well, that would at least make some sense.
I would add while not letting her express how she feels about it.
“The right to ask anything of or say anything to any woman they want at any time they please, no matter how intrusive/upsetting/insulting/presumptuous it may be, plus the right to get the result of their choice no matter how the woman feels about it.”
Because she should be HONORED by the ATTENTION because it’s a COMPLIMENT! Anyone who can’t understand this is a stupid stuck-up princess anyway.
And if talking to women is sooooooooooooooo haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaard, I do have to wonder how these guys handle job-hunting. I can just hear them saying “But I had to do all the work in approaching you in the first place! You OWE me a job! You’re a big meany poopyhead!”
I’m confused as to why they’d even WANT to approach women anyway, since we’re dumb parasites and use people for emotional–gag–tampons. Besides, aren’t we all FAT-FAT-FATTIES?
vacuumslayer: All of those reasons are why rejecting them is so humiliating. If someone so worthless as that won’t agree to fuck them, they must really be worthless.
I wish I thought that was more silly and ridiculous than I do, but I really do think a fair number of MRAs/PUAs actually have so thoroughly accepted the idea of women as worthless that they take rejection as a comparison, and what they are comparing it to is appalling, so they get angry.
Pecunium –
Perhaps I can sum up:
Attractiveness is a totally objective linear scale. People will accept offers from people higher on the scale than themselves. People will reject offers from people lower on the scale than themselves. People will MAKE offers to those lower on the scale than themselves only to assure success. People will ACCEPT offers from those lower on the scale than themselves only because they are somehow pathetic or desperate.
Did I miss something? This “logic” is making my brain hurt.
Ion — Would I be worried if a guy approached me in a bad neighborhood to ask for a light? Probably not. If it was a bad neighborhood in the wee hours of the morning, and he followed me into a confined space where I couldn’t easily get away before making his request? You bet I’d be worried. That’s how my husband got mugged.
Women are shamed for being raped, and they are shamed for being less than nice to creepy guys who might or might not be rapists. You have left us with no alternative but to piss you off.
Personally, at 4 am, I’d wait for the next elevator. But now you’re going to cry that I automatically think all men are rapists.
No, but it proves at least one thing:
1) Meeting a man alone in the elevator at 4 am is a creepy situation in itself
2) You can’t complain that men use elevators at 4 am
So even if you’re perfectly justified to find situations creepy you have no right to demand a change of other peoples behavior, you have to suck it up.
We all will experience (male or female) many creepy situations in our life, like meeting a group of drunks in the night, weird people with Russian accents asking you to change money, a junkie begging you for a Dollar, being alone with loud youths in the train, a dog owner with Staffie barking at you and pulling the leash etc etc.
If the threat is not extreme, we suck it up, we don’t make YouTube-videos complaining about it, like “People, just a word of the wise here: only get drunk at home.” or
“Dog owners, just a word of the wise here: don’t let your dog bark at other people.”…
It would be a ridiculous thing to do (not that we wouldn’t understand that you find these situations creepy…).
It’s ridiculous and may be the reason Dawkins reacts in that “Don’t you have real problems?” manner (of course the guy-with-a-chewing-gum-analogy is totally stupid).
And still, the “Guys don’t do that…” is of course not equivalent to “all men are rapists”, it’s equivalent to “(nearly) all men have no manners and must be taught how not to be creepy”.
I’m still unsure what the problem is outside that ppl think she should not have thought he was creepy? o_O is it that they dun like her thoughts leading to the actions that are problematic/should have been different (i.e. saying that she was tired and not interested) or.. they just don’t like she thought the guy was creepy? o_O or that she gave advice? I’m still confused why ppl are upset xD
What would Skepchick have to do to make her critics here calm down and not upset? o: Clearly this is still a big issue to some ppl, so I’m wondering what the problem is that she should apologize for, or change her behaviour or etc? :]
Is it just the “you should be thinking about more important issues?” o:
2) You can’t complain that men use elevators at 4 am
Did she do that? o_O
Cuz I ttlly agree.. that would be f-ed up… obv ppl can use elevators…