Two atheists get in an elevator
So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:
Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?
Then Richard Dawkins says,
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Richard
In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:
Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.
Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?
In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)
The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing. Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.
The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were. Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):
So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’
Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.
That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:
What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?
Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies. She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.
Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.
Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:
I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”
In a followup post, she noted:
When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.
And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.
Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.
They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.
And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:
I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.
She didn’t shut up.
So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.
Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc – Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.
Posted on July 6, 2011, in creepy, feminism, hypocrisy, misogyny, oppressed men, patriarchy, rape, reactionary bullshit, sexual harassment, threats. Bookmark the permalink. 1,701 Comments.
Er, by “that” I mean “You shouldn’t be guarded around all strange men, but if you get raped then it’s your fault for not being guarded” that you guys have been talking about.
Caseymordred:
I think you’re exactly right. I’ve noticed a tendency in the MRA community for, whenever they discuss a news piece involving a woman who was attacked or killed by her boyfriend/husband, they tend to blame the victim. Usually goes something to the effect of, “What happened was tragic *but* she should have known better than hanging around with this unsavory character instead of nice guys like us.”
I think I understand what the MRA trolls are saying when they mean that.
Mmh… on feminist sites the word troll somehow seems to have another meaning than on the rest of the internet.
I have to admit, I’m kind of vaguely dissatisfied a lot of the time with how the Schroedinger’s Rapist concept is explained. It does not help that some folks apparently read it as “big and scary word in front of ‘rapist’”, cue howling about how they are not a rapist, are not are not ARE NOT!
I read this essay and it really gave me some ideas regarding IRL trolling like asking a woman for directions in a dark alley. Yes IRLT is dangerous, but it’s so much more rewarding…
I now saw the original video… of eh… her… why didn’t you warn me…!?!? *brrrrrrrrrrrh*
honestly, she’s so ugly, she should be happy that a guy approached her at all…
Probably it was the first time in her life, and she screw it up. Now she’s angry at herself and that’s her way to cope with it.
FEMINISTS ARE UGLY BLAR-HAR-HAR!
@Marc,
0/10. Your trolling is weak and obvious.
Ew, she has *gasp* glasses! She’s clearly ugly!
I read this essay and it really gave me some ideas regarding IRL trolling like asking a woman for directions in a dark alley. Yes IRLT is dangerous, but it’s so much more rewarding…
How old are you, Marc?
Because there’s a phase some teenagers go through where they think it’s hilarious to go through the drivethrough and say “yeah, I’d like to supersize… YOUR MOM” and then run off laughing about how they totally showed that drivethough person, what a sucker.
And there’s a phase some college kids go through where they think it’s very meaningful to go through the drivethrough and say “yeah, I’d like to supersize… AMERICAN SOCIETY” and run off thinking that they really struck a blow at the heart of The System.
By the time you’re an adult, you realize that both of these prove nothing except what an asshole you are.
She screwed it up? When some dude cornered her in a small windowless closed room at 4am in a foreign country? What is there to screw up? She politely said no, and then later mentioned it made her uncomfortable.
Er, by “that” I mean “You shouldn’t be guarded around all strange men, but if you get raped then it’s your fault for not being guarded” that you guys have been talking about.
Please, point me to where anyone here has said that getting raped is the victim’s fault, I’m fascinated.
It says that when one wants pleasantness, and doesn’t accept that unpleasantness may be what one gets is misogyny.
Er, no. “Disapproving” is not the same as “not accepting”. The Book of Mordred is saying that it’s misogyny to even personally disapprove of outright rudeness (but only if it’s from a woman, of course, those fucking men better be polite at all times).
If that’s not what the Book of Mordred meant, then maybe he should say what he means.
NWOaf has I am sure but he does not count.
Not because he is a man or anything but because he has shown himself to be pretty much worthless.
And I’ve made it to the end, but I have to head to work, and tomorrow I’m having a going away party (if any of the locals should like to show up, I have a post on my Lj about it. Drop me a line and I’ll send you directions; the notice is short [the party is Saturday], and I apologise. I’ve been sort of distracted, what with moving 3,000 miles, and other stuff).
So I expect it will be a bit longer when I get back.
So, looks are what determine if one’s argument is great or not?
I must’ve missed the memo, Marc.
Remember the Greek System, redlocker. You’re nothing, male or female, unless you’re hot.
What I basically mean is this, MRAL.
The idea of a woman who is less than kind and sweet to a man, for any reason, is anathema to unenlightened men.
Why? It’s a control issue. If you see her there and you know she will speak freely and not deny herself the full range of her emotions, instead of being uncritically sweet, kind, and loving towards the male gender, then you realize, consciously or otherwise, that you will not have a perfectly smooth relationship with her, because she will actually stand up for herself instead of letting you lead her.
Terrible, isn’t it?
Let me restate it again, for clarity:
That girl you (i.e. misogynists in general) look at, who would be SO perfect if only she didn’t “have a chip on her shoulder” i.e. she is aware of the issues and doesn’t pretend they don’t exist so as not to hurt your widdle feelings, doesn’t exist to give eternal emotional validation i.e. ego stroking, she can and will have An Existence Apart, regardless of what you want.
And the thought of such a thing, you can’t stand that.
I think Mordred speaks for Mordred MRAL >_>
Please, point me to where anyone here has said that getting raped is the victim’s fault, I’m fascinated.
In this entire blog, or just this thread? o_O Neways, I think ppl were talking about the general narratives in society about rape. But if you do not believe that being raped is the victim’s fault that’s good :3
I dunno, I kinda think expectations that “girls should be nice all the time” is just fucking stupid and unrealistic, not actually misogyny. Going back to my bike analogy, I think drivers should be aware of bikes all the time and try really hard not to hit them. Expecting them to be perfect at this is unrealistic, not actually hatred of cars or drivers. (In fact I love cars).
You want girls to always be nice to you? Ok, fine, you can want things. Sucks to be you ’cause it ain’t gonna happen, but, whatever. (this should all be taken as “generic you” – I’m not talking to anyone in particular here)
Marc, dudes on Pharyngula started insulting Rebecca Watson’s looks *days* ago. Do try to be original.
Seriously, though, that comment is soooo much like the guy who yells “Hey baby, where you going?”, followed by “Stuck up bitch, you’ve got a fat ass” when you don’t respond.
(2000 comments! We can do it!)
Like Cap’n B said, weak and obvious.
(comment #1350)
Yeah, see, the thing is, this supposed pervasive attitude that all women must be nice and sweet does not exist. There is no such expectation. I would fucking know.
That girl you (i.e. misogynists in general) look at, who would be SO perfect if only she didn’t “have a chip on her shoulder” i.e. she is aware of the issues and doesn’t pretend they don’t exist so as not to hurt your widdle feelings, doesn’t exist to give eternal emotional validation i.e. ego stroking, she can and will have An Existence Apart, regardless of what you want.
And the thought of such a thing, you can’t stand that.
Are you talking to some imaginary friend or something? Because otherwise, this is the biggest fucking projection I’ve ever seen.
FEMINISTS ARE UGLY BLAR-HAR-HAR!
Well, I don’t know if that’s the case, but this one clearly is. I would give her some tips, but I’m afraid she’s not going to listen…
The eyebrows look bad and her hair-dyeing was a bad decision, I hope we at least agree on the obvious things!
She can’t even apply makeup properly, proof:
xhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybrVvTy2Nsc
(the x is intentional… if you post a Youtube-Link, the video is embedded in the comment and I don’t want to scare you! So remove the x and proceed at your own risk.)
Ew, she has *gasp* glasses! She’s clearly ugly!
She’s got narrow glasses for her rather long face, it looks horrible. Clearly ugly!
@ Mr. Al “Yeah, see, the thing is, this supposed pervasive attitude that all women must be nice and sweet does not exist. There is no such expectation. I would fucking know.”
How on earth would you know that? Have you ever presented as female? I usually do! And, interestingly enough, people expect me to be nice and sweet. ALL THE TIME. (I don’t really present as a man in public enough to speak to that.
Marc, the point isn’t weather she’s ugly or not. I haven’t looked, so I can’t comment. The point is that it dosen’t matter! People are more then their pretty faces. Their opinions are just as valid, even if they’re really busted.
Marc, dudes on Pharyngula started insulting Rebecca Watson’s looks *days* ago. Do try to be original.
I don’t try to be original, it’s not my job to entertain you. And I’m not insulting her looks, I just want to give you a rational™ explanation why she’s so pissed off…
Okay Marc if you want to queer eye for the straight woman you just really want to insult and not help actually go ahead but we will call you on it.
MRAL-I know I was taught to be pleasant at all times but my step-brother was not. Granted it did not take but it was there. Plus society expects us to be meek and mild but not as bad as 30 years ago thank the stars.
MRAL, you really shouldn’t be accusing other people of projection.
Marc, there is nothing rational about your explanation, particularly after the incident has been so clearly explained. :D
The details: Woman gives talk on how men hit on women at conferences, asks men not to hit on her there please. Man, who was there for the talk, goes into elevator with her at 4am and proceeds to ask her to his room.
To make this all about her looks? That’s irrational. But then, you haven’t seemed particularly bright so far…
What’s funny is she’s also been accused of being there ONLY for her looks, or trading on her looks (the calender, etc) and etc etc xD
MRAL: *snickers*
Yeah, see, the thing is, this supposed pervasive attitude that all women must be nice and sweet does not exist. There is no such expectation. I would fucking know.
If you did not share the privileged attitude that women OUGHT to be nice to you (at least the ones you think worthy of notice– srs. doubt you want a friendly approach by a 55 year old fat pagan queer person coffcoff), then you would not be so mad and prone to cussing and violent fantasies when the women you choose to honor with your notice do NOT live up to the pervasive expectation that they be nice and sweet!
Would you?
And, of course, a person who believes that women are spitting on him if they don’t deliver the pleasantries that he believes he deserves would damn well fucking know that there is no such expectation that women must be nice and sweet.
Pam: High fives you! Two great minds and all that. I just about spit water on my keyboard when I read what MRAL said.
sorry for the double ithiliana a post or two above–downloaded firefox and was tweaking it on netbook and somehow my evil twin snuck in…and well you know how that story goes! Don’t listen to her!
ithiliana: High fives back atcha!! I was perusing the comments while having dinner, and I damn near choked when I read his comment. His therapist oughta caution him, “It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt.”
What’s funny is she’s also been accused of being there ONLY for her looks, or trading on her looks (the calender, etc) and etc etc xD
How’s that a contradiction? She’s ONLY there for her looks but those looks are even bad.
The details: Woman gives talk on how men hit on women at conferences, asks men not to hit on her there please. Man, who was there for the talk, goes into elevator with her at 4am and proceeds to ask her to his room.
To make this all about her looks? That’s irrational. But then, you haven’t seemed particularly bright so far…
Normally, if you’re a normal person you just would be annoyed but not make a video about it complaining… (and who even knows that the story is true? Maybe she’s just wants to attract attention?) so there MUST be a deeper reason and I think it can be partly explained by her looks.
Okay Marc if you want to queer eye for the straight woman you just really want to insult and not help actually go ahead but we will call you on it.
No, no, I really want to help her, not to insult her, this poor little ugly duckling… so insecure and stuck up, it feel really sorry for her!
*raises her eyebrow at Marc* Gee, I wonder what is making me doubt your sincerity?
@Marc:
“Normally, if you’re a normal person you just would be annoyed but not make a video about it complaining…”
Have you been on the internet? At all? Have you been on youtube, or read any personal blogs?
Furthermore, do you know anything about the current state the atheist/skeptic movement is in with regards to misogyny? Do you honestly think the only possible reason somebody would complain about being hit on in an elevator is that they are starved for attention, or are ugly? Blegh… first-level enemies in RPGs aren’t this slimey..
@Marc,
0/10. Your trolling is weak and obvious.
Again, please make up your mind.
I am trolling, you say… so one should just laugh at me…
but poor Rachel and you all take the comments on her videos about her looks very seriously…
But aren’t they just weak obvious trolls like me, too?
Do you lose your sleep about some weak and obvious trolls on the internet? Or have you looked at their earlier comments and found out that they were “respectable posters” (is that even possible on Youtube?) before?
Maybe you shouldn’t upload vids on Youtube then if you’re so emotionally unstable…
Just a suggestion…
Listen up, gals, Marc is here to tell us what normal people do! Y’all had better listen, because he’s the arbiter of What Women Are Supposed To Look And Act Like. He just wants to help!
You. Really. Can’t. Win. If you do your hair and dress nice, you get “Well, what did you expect, going out looking like that?” If you downplay your looks to avoid attention, you get “Ugly bitch, you should be glad someone paid attention to you”.
Marc, you are a troll. Of course you are here to entertain us. But putting that aside, you are several days behind this story and you clearly don’t know the first thing about it. If you want to participate, maybe you could go back and read some of the original posts. Or hell, SOME OF THIS THREAD. It’s very irritating for the same points to be raised over and over again by some guy who hasn’t bothered to read anything – “But what’s the big deal/You’re treating all men like rapists!/She’s ugly lol/But what about the shy awkward men?”
If you have any novel trolling to contribute, that would be very welcome. We’re trying to get to 2000 posts here!
Furthermore, do you know anything about the current state the atheist/skeptic movement is in with regards to misogyny?
No I don’t know anything about it…
But why don’t they just leave them and make women their own movement?
That’s always something I ask myself.
I’m totally for gender separation. It works so well, look at Saudi Arabia, where you have not only have schools but even different universities for males and females. Usually I don’t agree with the Muslims, but in this case they get it right.
A very, very simple and 100% effective solution for the “1 in 4 women in college today has been the victim of rape” problem.
Gender separation is an ethical imperative!
Look at this Geek Feminism website, David has in his “antidotes to boobery” list:
http://geekfeminism.org/
It’s so sad, I’m so sorry for them, it hurts me very much to read this “incidences list”
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Incidents
with all the problems they’ve had with men until now.
But then I ask myself…. why are they still working with them?
Free Software is licensed under the GPL or an equivalent license, so they could just grab all the source code from the men and continue with their own thing. Because by licensing his program under the GPL the author has abandoned his legal rights to stop other people using the source code!
We call that “forking”.
The male Free Software developers have no way to stop this.
Evil sexist bigot and incel Richard Stallman is powerless, he can’t stop it if you turn his own creation against him!
And if they don’t want to develop a whole operating system, no problem!
They can just develop applications for Linux, because to this day there exists no technical method for an operating system to discriminate against programs written by women!
Do you honestly think the only possible reason somebody would complain about being hit on in an elevator is that they are starved for attention, or are ugly? Blegh… first-level enemies in RPGs aren’t this slimey..
There are many reasons. First of all I’m for presumption of innocence. Who knows what the guy really said? Have we even listened to his story?
We have no evidence that this encounter really happened in this way, but of course you believe her.
You’re in favor of gender separation? Great. Start with yourself.
Bye now…
*waves goodbye to marc*
Perhaps you can go make your own blog, and complain all you want over there. Why stay and suffer our abuse when you can go your own way? Waaaiitt a minute…
Marc, you are a troll.
Baseless assumptions as always. I’m so tired of it, to be constantly accused of that, that’s what you always try if you are cornered.
It’s very irritating for the same points to be raised over and over again by some guy who hasn’t bothered to read anything – “But what’s the big deal/You’re treating all men like rapists!/She’s ugly lol/But what about the shy awkward men?”
Has anyone suggested a theory why she reacted in this way? I didn’t just say “she’s ugly”, I said she complained about this encounter because she liked the guy but she screw it up and that’s her way to cope with it. Also I gave her some beauty tips, has anybody else done that?
All that were novel contribution, I don’t know what you’re complaining about!
Marc, I think it’s time for you to post pictures so we can tell if you need some beauty suggestions.
It’s the only way to know if you’re worth listening to.
Bet you don’t know how to do eye makeup properly…
Perhaps you can go make your own blog, and complain all you want over there. Why stay and suffer our abuse when you can go your own way? Waaaiitt a minute…
Gender seperation in colleges would end the campus rape problem, please mark your answer:
[ ] Yes
[ ] No
If you answered no, please explain your reasons.
Also, to answer you quasi-sincerely, Marc, this isn’t a court of law and the elevator guy isn’t being charged with anything.
The reason Skepchick shared this story was to tell other guys that this behavior makes women uncomfortable. It’s not about putting anyone on trial–it’s about letting people know what future behavior is unlikely to get good results.
Bet you don’t know how to do eye makeup properly…
I do it all the time and I think I’m very good at it (my sister is my guinea pig).
“Has anyone suggested a theory why she reacted in this way?”
You could read the thread and find out.
“Also I gave her some beauty tips, has anybody else done that?”
See previous suggestion.
I think it has to be “acts as my guinea pig”
1. Because some men are sexist asshats does not mean all men are.
2. Letting men know that something is sexist (calling it out) means it will not happen again.
3. Saudia Arabia is a dumb example of gender segregation because women have no choice in the matter. If you are a woman and fail to adhere, you will be beaten and killed.
4. What is with this presumption of innocence nonsense? Why do you assume she is lying? And if she revealed EG’s name, you would be bitching about that too.
5. It is better to use a real example of behavior that bothers women (kind of like how one should call out sexist behavior in either gender) then to just use a nebulous statement.
Gender seperation in colleges would end the campus rape problem, please mark your answer:
[ ] Yes
[X] No
If you answered no, please explain your reasons.
Segregated college campuses do not end rapes, they just reduce the chances.
Gender seperation in colleges would end the campus rape problem, please mark your answer:
[ ] Yes
[X] No
If you answered no, please explain your reasons.
If people are still allowed to socialize with the opposite gender, there will still be rapes at parties and by dates and boyfriends/girlfriends.
If people are not allowed to socialize with the opposite gender, your incidence of same-gender rape is going to go way up. (See also: prison, celibate clergy.) And the people who sneak across gender lines in defiance of the rules will also be at increased risk.
Also, “separate but equal” treatment has a really, really bad history in this country.
A theory is only necessary if you don’t already know the answer. We already know the answer. It’s been posted in this thread (I know I’ve personally posted it and am not the only one), and it’s been explained ad nauseum in a whole bunch of blogs and their comments.
Not baseless at all, and I sincerely doubt you are tired of it because you so clearly are a troll. You completely ignore the explanation given over and over again, then there’s this…
You, my friend, a troll, but tiresome in a completely different way than a troll such as NWOslave, so I guess that’s… refreshing?
@Marc:
I think, if you’re still confused about the issue, and Watson’s intentions, watching the video posted here should help you out. If that doesn’t work, there is also this quote by someone.. I forget who it was…
Like others have said, you really should read what you are supposed to be commenting on. Before, you know, you comment.
The reason Skepchick shared this story was to tell other guys that this behavior makes women uncomfortable. It’s not about putting anyone on trial–it’s about letting people know what future behavior is unlikely to get good results.
But maybe that also makes other guys uncomfortable. If a guy hears a woman telling him”Guys, don’t do that!” he has to think that she assumes he is capable of this behavior, though she has no evidence for this and he would never do such a thing.
You. Really. Can’t. Win. If you do your hair and dress nice, you get “Well, what did you expect, going out looking like that?” If you downplay your looks to avoid attention, you get “Ugly bitch, you should be glad someone paid attention to you”.
Maybe you should just dress classy and modest. Avoiding dressing too elaborately doesn’t mean you have to neglect your appearance! As dressing feminine doesn’t mean dressing slutty.
Addendum:
The interesting bit starts at about three minutes in.
PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth, Again with the list of suggesting/dictating how men should act towards women.
If you unfailingly support women suggesting/dictating how men should act towards women, you must unfailingly support men suggesting/dictating how women should act towards men.
If this is what you want in the way of etiquette/manners, it is a double edged sword, it goes both ways.
If a guy hears a woman telling him”Guys, don’t do that!” he has to think that she assumes he is capable of this behavior, though she has no evidence for this and he would never do such a thing.
If you see a “no peeing in the pool” sign, do you immediately rip it down because “I DON’T PEE IN POOLS HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A POOL PEEING PERSON I AM INSULTED”? If you’re already treating women decently, then congratulations, this isn’t about you.
Maybe you should just dress classy and modest.
Maybe people should be decent to women even if they’re wearing chickens on their heads.
Either way we’re telling a huge group of people what to do, so I’d rather go with the demand that includes more freedom.
@Marc:
“But maybe that also makes other guys uncomfortable. If a guy hears a woman telling him”Guys, don’t do that!” he has to think that she assumes he is capable of this behavior, though she has no evidence for this and he would never do such a thing.”
By that logic, nobody should tell you “its wrong to steal.” Its offensive, and it may hurt your sensibilities by insinuating that you might be able to steal something. I mean really, your logic is absolutely impeccable.
On a more serious note, if someone is being offensive without realizing it, should you explain to them how they are being offensive, or put their right to feel good about making offensive remarks over your desire to not hear them? I honestly want to hear your answer.
NWO – If you unfailingly support women suggesting/dictating how men should act towards women, you must unfailingly support men suggesting/dictating how women should act towards men.
I sorta do, within certain bounds. I’m fine with men saying that they don’t want to be cornered and aggressively propositioned by women, for instance. And I don’t think women should sneak up on men in dark parking lots no matter how pure their intentions.
There’s just about nothing I’d ask men to do that I wouldn’t ask women to do.
Don’t worry guys, as soon as NWO realizes I’m here, he’ll bolt again. I may not even have to put a little “@NWO” above my comment for it!
Holly Pervocracy
If men say we find slutwalks uncouth, and they make us uncomfortable, you cannot have them.
Unless you go by the motto, do as I say not as I do.
If men say we find slutwalks uncouth, and they make us uncomfortable, you cannot have them.
Okay. But then we get to tell men that we decide what they get to wear in public (we don’t say explictly, they gotta kinda guess, and not all women are going to judge it the same anyway), and if they guess wrong then they get a world of shit and crimes against them aren’t really considered crimes.
Yeah, I don’t think you really want to take stuff in that direction, NWO.
(OH GOD WHY AM I RESPONDING TO NWO SOMEONE PLEASE SLAP ME.)
(NOT YOU, NWO.)
@NWO:
“If men say we find slutwalks uncouth, and they make us uncomfortable, you cannot have them.”
Its statements like this that make me say you love blissfully steam-rolling over nuance. Slutwalks are not the same as creepy propositions in an elevator at 4am. At all. The most obvious way being that slutwalks are not actively directed towards the men who find it “uncouth.” Women are not cornering men in dark allies and waving their bits around in the men’s faces. If they were, maybe you’d have a point.
But of course, men acting creepy towards women is an action directed at women. Hence women saying “please don’t do that,” with the unsaid implication “to me.”
@Holly:
(IS IT SOMETHING TO BE AFRAID OF OH GOD I NEVER REALIZED HOLD ME IM SCARED)
A theory is only necessary if you don’t already know the answer. We already know the answer. It’s been posted in this thread (I know I’ve personally posted it and am not the only one), and it’s been explained ad nauseum in a whole bunch of blogs and their comments.
I’m sorry, if I’ve overlooked that, but where was it explained can you post a link?
But Rachel’s statements don’t count, because who knows if she’s honest? Who knows if that’s really what’s going on in her head? Maybe she really WAS flattered by this guy’s approaches but doesn’t want to admit it to herself?
Not baseless at all, and I sincerely doubt you are tired of it because you so clearly are a troll. You completely ignore the explanation given over and over again, then there’s this…
Where have I ignored “the” explanation?
“The” explanation?
Like others have said, you really should read what you are supposed to be commenting on. Before, you know, you comment.
Yes, I’ve already read that, I’m sorry, I don’t know how I’ve failed to include that in my reasoning…
You, my friend, a troll, but tiresome in a completely different way than a troll such as NWOslave, so I guess that’s… refreshing?
Is NWOslave a troll? I never thought of him as one…
Are all MRAs trolls?
(I think Pecunium is a troll…)
But as you offended me so much, I don’t think I can post here any longer. No, I don’t think that, I’m sure of it. With people as hostile as you, who think so badly about me, trying to lecture me and so on, always trying to paint me in a bad light, I will not come here again, I will go now and not come back, so it’s your choice to reply to my posts, I won’t read them anyway. Good night.
Also I think what’s missing here is that ppl CAN still proposition her or any other woman in an elevator at 4am -_-;; her saying it bugs her or suggesting not to do it can be completely ignored if ppl want xD My existence upsets ppl, they suggest (dictate apparently means the same thing as suggest now xD ) all sorts of things for me notto do… I suggest they mind their own business, they do not take my suggestion, I don’t take theirs xD the world is still around as far as I checked xD
Really Marc?
“But Rachel’s statements don’t count, because who knows if she’s honest? Who knows if that’s really what’s going on in her head? Maybe she really WAS flattered by this guy’s approaches but doesn’t want to admit it to herself?”
So, you want somebody to tell you exactly what happened, but we can’t give you the statement of somebody who was actually there… because they might be lying? Are you saying the only way to prove what happened is to use the hotel security video? But… that could have been doctored! Somebody quick, invent a time machine so Marc can go back in time and witness the event for himself.
Then he’ll be alone in the elevator with Watson. And then he’ll realize what he must do.
Holly Pervocracy
You see, it’s a big joke to you.
I mean you want acceptance of women telling men how to act so “they” will always feel comfortable around men.
Yet you won’t accept men telling women how they should act so “men” will always feel comfortable around women.
Don’t you see something wrong with that?
Marc – There are two definitions of “troll” that are relevant here:
1. Someone who goes on a website to announce that they disagree with the entire premise of the website. Posting “CATS SUCK THEY ARE STUPID ANIMALS” on a cat forum, because you’re a rabid dog partisan.
2. Someone who posts inflammatory things they don’t actually believe, just to get a rise out of people. Posting “CATS SUCK THEY ARE STUPID ANIMALS” on a cat forum, not because you actually have anything against cats, but just because you want the cat people to get upset and pay attention to you.
You’re definitely a Type 1, at least. And the jury is out on Type 2, frankly.
NWO – I mean you want acceptance of women telling men how to act so “they” will always feel comfortable around men.
Yet you won’t accept men telling women how they should act so “men” will always feel comfortable around women.
Don’t you see something wrong with that?
The real problem with your example, NWO, was that you compared a *real* thing that bothers women to a *hypothetical* thing that could bother some hypothetical unreasonable man.
I think women have the right to demand “men shouldn’t proposition strangers in a threatening way.” I don’t think women have the right to demand “men should all do the Chicken Dance on the hour.”
It’s a matter of which demands are reasonable, not of which gender is making them.