Two atheists get in an elevator
So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:
Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?
Then Richard Dawkins says,
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Richard
In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:
Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.
Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?
In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)
The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing. Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.
The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were. Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):
So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’
Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.
That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:
What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?
Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies. She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.
Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.
Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:
I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”
In a followup post, she noted:
When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.
And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.
Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.
They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.
And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:
I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.
She didn’t shut up.
So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.
Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc – Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.
Posted on July 6, 2011, in creepy, feminism, hypocrisy, misogyny, oppressed men, patriarchy, rape, reactionary bullshit, sexual harassment, threats. Bookmark the permalink. 1,701 Comments.
More coffee-related humor.
I’d like a picture of this guy. I would bet you a million dollars he is ugly, and therein lies the real problem. Sure, this was a bit of an odd situation, but honestly, not really that much. A man approaches a woman he doesn’t know that well, comes onto her, gets rejected, nods and moves away. Er…. not seeing the problem. I’d say that sounds pretty standard, actually. If she’s “creeped out”, it’s almost certainly because he was someone she saw as beneath Her Lordly Highness, and she was offended that such slime would have the nerve to approach Her Highness and deign to ask her to associate with a lowly man such as her. I can fucking picture her now, gossiping to her FUCKING friends about how this slime had the audacity to even talk to her, OH HOW CREEPY!!!!! EEEEEEEE1! Fucking high pitched annoying voices Christ. But if it had been a prime male specimen like Pitt, it would have been “so romantic”, a Meet Cute, and she’d be all over him. “Creep” is slander, simply a derogatory label attached to non-perfect men (by non-perfect but entitled women) who have the nerve to think they don’t deserve to be alone, to try, to do pretty much anything. One of the conceits of modern women is that they not only feel entitled to the best physical specimens, but
Men approach women. Yeah, 4 in the morning on an elevator is unusual, but it’s not that weird. If he accepted the rejection gracefully (and he did) there is absolutely NO problem and this woman is simply an arrogant, entitled person who has labeled this man for having the nerve not to look like Brad Pitt. But given the current social climate of men as literally the sole instigators, any man who wants any sort of female interaction must approach, and if this means being “creepy”, well, the situation is women’s fault, since women are too damn lazy and entitled to approach men. If you want to change that, women, start asking men out. Otherwise, shut the fuck up.
As it turns out, I like my coffee sweet, weak, and full of cream. So I generally don’t bring up my coffee preferences in elevators with women at 4 AM.
MRAL, you’re backsliding. This is why your therapist didn’t want you reading this blog.
“Let’s say no. So then it was his approach that was wrong, but he wasn’t aware of it. Tough shit, that’s how the world works. Do you walk around on eggshells every day, constantly trying to read everyone around you, for fear of – ye gods – possibly offending someone or making someone uncomfortable? Is the thought of “we’re all basically adults and we can communicate and deal with all kinds of shit without needing to treat each other with kid gloves” completely foreign to you? And don’t you think it’s a little misogynist to assume women are simply unable to do this, and need special treatment and protection?”
Yet apparently, clueless guys in elevators warrant the same level of kid-glove approach you think nobody else deserves.
“Huh? Was that directed at me? Not sure what you’re blathering about but it sounds like a fountain that’s been waiting to erupt for a while, there…”
Oh not just you, snowflake. You and every other drama-queen who can take a simple suggestion like “Be aware of the situation around you and the people you interact with” and blow it up into some Herculean task mortals are incapable of performing. I mean really, if you’re expecting me to feel sorry for you or to understand why you simply can’t take a few moments to warm up your thought goop and try to show some kind of consideration for people around you instead of falling back on this weak-ass “Hurr, tough shit” routine, don’t whine when you get called on it. Especially if your position is going to be one where you complain about how hard it is to not offend people and then follow it by (surprise!) getting massively offended by someone else. Well guess what! The rest of us on the planet aren’t really obligated to tiptoe around your delicate little feelings either. Funny how that works, isn’t it?
ehh… sarcasm isn’t your strong suit, is it? There I go, overestimating your reading comprehension again.
Ah, so you were really saying that you, a person who hasn’t (presumably) been put in a position of feeling nervous about your safety when isolated by a person interested in you sexually … that you think “no thanks” is all that is needed in such a situation?
Nice. Great that you haven’t experienced that kind of threat to your safety. But many women have, and hence any man who propositions a woman he doesn’t know who is in an isolated situation … stands a good chance of creeping her out.
I don’t think I’m backsliding. Things are looking okay. This just made me a little angry. No big deal.
And my therapist just told me not to talk about myself anymore, to anyone. That’s some advice I’m following.
“Do you walk around on eggshells every day, constantly trying to read everyone around you, for fear of – ye gods – possibly offending someone or making someone uncomfortable?”
That’s the whole point of Rebecca’s YouTube comment, though – she politely turned the guy down, then pointed out to her followers (who are likely to be other atheists interested in attending these conventions and maybe hooking up at them) that propositioning someone in an elevator at 4AM after they’ve said they’re tired and going to bed (especially when you’ve never talked to them before!) is not a good idea. Rebecca is, in fact, helping guys avoid walking on eggshells – she gave them simple advice to avoid awkward incidents in the future! Just leave strangers (even hot ones!) alone if it’s 4AM and you’re alone with them in an elevator. Talk to them before then – make the coffee offer while you’re both still at the bar with others or before midnight, maybe! Tada – fewer offended, uncomfortable people!
a) Like I said, “creepy” is really not that great an insult. It’s on par with “heebie jeebies”. It’s not good but it’s not all that bad.
b) Saying it in an internet video that doesn’t even name the guy? Also, really really not that bad! He can maybe, if he happened to see it, feel a little embarassed all on his lonesome and never tell a soul and either decide to not do that again or, ya know, do it again anyway and live with the not-actually-all-that-bad consequences.
c) I do ask men out. I’ve asked out more men than have asked me out. Er, I think. Neither is a very large number. Also, a lot of the “asking out” on both sides was done with pausible deniability so it’s difficult to count.
Why the heck should that guy care if she’s offended or creeped out, though? If he didn’t know her, no loss. And I’m sure there are some women who would have accepted the offer, so he had something to gain and nothing to lose.
Ion, if she just said it make her feel “uncomfortable,” that would be a content-free sentence. She had to explain at least a little.
Saying “X behavior makes me feel creeped out and sexualized” isn’t accusing anyone of anything. Most men have never lived as women, so most men don’t always know what behaviors might come across as creepy and sexualizing to a strange women. That is both the kindest and the most likely explanation of the elevator incident.
Women like Watson, who gently and calmly point out “X behavior is makes me feel creeped out and sexualized” (and hence, is creepy and sexualizing behavior) are doing a major service to both men and women.
Men who get angry, dismissive, or defensive about this are doing a major disservice to both men and women.
If a woman made a man feel objectified or fear assault, my opinion of her and of Elevator Guy would be the same. Both are at best clueless and need to think more about how to make overtures in a better context – both out of basic decency and because it’s much more likely to work.
That’s the meat of the argument, isn’t it? You say that, presumably, this guy MADE her feel objectified and fear assault. She called him creepy. All because he said, and I quote again, “Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?” Which apparently was creepy because it was 4 AM (they’d just left the bar) and they were in an elevator (maybe he was one of those weirdos who waits until he has a person’s attention and doesn’t like asking someone out in front of all their friends).
I object to the guy being essentially demonized, first by Watson herself (sexualizing, creepy) and then further by the various commenters who jumped to her defense. I also believe it was an incident completely blown out of proportion. That’s it.
Also, are we responsible for how other people feel about us? To what degree? And would you judge Watson’s response in this case (feeling threatened, creeped out, sexualized) appropriate, based on the facts? Personally, I don’t.
I find it really amazing that Ion made some of the same points we made upthread (being propositioned for anything at 4am in an elevator is a little creepy) and is still insisting that the guy has been unfairly treated. That’s… pretty special.
Honestly, this is like trying to get my son to do chores when he was about 14-15. He’d put a level of energy into avoiding whatever it is he needed to do that would have been enough to complete the task ten times over. Nobody’s asking for a second-by-second audit of your every word, action, facial expression or bodily function. Just do your best to be aware of the fucking world you’re in and that you are not, in fact, the axle about which it turns. Millions of people manage this every day. They don’t make weak excuses for not doing it. They don’t say “Tough shit” and then get indignant when shit happens to them. They just gut up and do it because it’s what they’d want other people to do for them.
Or, you can be a big baby about it and only complain when it happens to you. Your choice and your responsibility either way.
Women like Watson, who gently and calmly point out “X behavior is makes me feel creeped out and sexualized” (and hence, is creepy and sexualizing behavior) are doing a major service to both men and women.
Men who get angry, dismissive, or defensive about this are doing a major disservice to both men and women.
I don’t agree. Or I agree up to a point. Common courtesy is fine, but if someone accuses me of making them feel a certain way, or offending them, by simply being who I am, that’s their problem, not mine, and I won’t rush to change myself based on their opinion.
MRAL, these conversations among women that your fevered imagination relates to you do not actually happen all that often. In fact, a woman has said the kind of thing you’re on about to me precisely once, and she ceased to be my friend at that point because the chap in question is lovely and didn’t deserve to be spoken of like that and in fact the conversation made me so angry I realised I was jealous and rather liked the chap myself and we have now been together for ten years.
Women do often complain, or laugh, or both at once, about being propositioned in inappropriate or downright frightening ways or about blokes who won’t take no for an answer, and they are right to complain because that stuff is bad.
Apparently I have to say this YET AGAIN because apparently my comments are invisible to MRAs or something but “creepy” is really NOT THAT BAD. It’s not RAPIST. It’s not BRUTE. It’s not DEMON. It’s just PERSON WHO GIVES ME THE HEEBIE JEEBIES. It’s not good but it’s really not all that bad! People should like NOT FREAK OUT ABOUT IT!
@MRAL Because his method wasn’t successful? Because he’d like to improve his method of picking up chicks for the next time he was at a conference?
I mean, it’s not like cause and effect are entirely irrelevant in the dating game.
Why do you keep ignoring the fact that he was asking her to his hotel room Ion?
You do see why being asked to go back to someone’s hotel room is creepy (even if you do not see the sexual overtones because you are scared of having major surgery performed on you when you are asked to go to a hotel room of some stranger at 4 AM) right?
if someone accuses me of making them feel a certain way, or offending them, by simply being who I am
It wasn’t WHO HE WAS it was WHAT HE DID.
“Common courtesy is fine, but if someone accuses me of making them feel a certain way, or offending them, by simply being who I am, that’s their problem, not mine, and I won’t rush to change myself based on their opinion.”
You’re simply creepy, or rude? I mean, you usually need a bit more going for you than those two things if that’s all you got, or you’re gonna be very lonely.
Also, MRAL, normal people aren’t indifferent to the feelings of other people. Hard to believe, I know, but it’s true.
Well no, “creepy” is not as bad as accusing someone of being a rapist. But it’s still most definitely a slur, and it’s more notable because it can be applied to any man, and thus in practice it is used to bully men (usually by women) who don’t fit Her Royal Highness’ 10/10 alpha Brad Pitt ideal. If you call someone a rapist or a violent brute you better be damn well prepared to back that up. Not so with “creepy”. It’s just “a vibe”, “a feeling”. You can’t PROVE you’re not creepy. Therein lies the word’s power.
“But it’s still most definitely a slur, and it’s more notable because it can be applied to any man, and thus in practice it is used to bully men (usually by women) who don’t fit Her Royal Highness’ 10/10 alpha Brad Pitt ideal.”
Me and Men in Full and all the other girls who watched Heroes for Greg Grunberg are once again erased. *gets out tissues*
Because I am tired of this constant claim that Brad Pitt is some kind of sexy ideal even though pretty much all the women on this board have stated explicitly he is not…
BRAD PITT IS NOT THE EPITOME OF SEXY FOR US. FIND ANOTHER GUY TO USE IN YOUR EXAMPLES.
/rant
As for creepy-that is the person who is on the receiving end’s right to determine how they feel the person is being. Girls can be creepy (although I think men tend to label those women as psychos) just as much as guys can. Plus, if I say you are creepy MRAL, that does not mean everyone else thinks the same or will agree with me.
You say you’re not talking about yourself, MRAL, but I think you are.
MRAL wrote, “If you call someone a rapist or a violent brute you better be damn well prepared to back that up. Not so with ‘creepy’. It’s just ‘a vibe’, ‘a feeling’. You can’t PROVE you’re not creepy. Therein lies the word’s power.”
I think we’ve provided several reasons why the time and place made this come-on creepy. I also provided suggestions which would be not creepy, yet still meet your goal of asking someone out.
@ Plymouth:
“Apparently I have to say this YET AGAIN because apparently my comments are invisible to MRAs or something but “creepy” is really NOT THAT BAD. It’s not RAPIST. It’s not BRUTE. It’s not DEMON. It’s just PERSON WHO GIVES ME THE HEEBIE JEEBIES. It’s not good but it’s really not all that bad! People should like NOT FREAK OUT ABOUT IT!”
It would seem that you do not yet understand Ion’s wisdom. Consideration of other people and their feelings is not for the offended, but for those who caused the offense in the first place. They’re the REAL wronged party here, what with having to deal with the agony of other people criticizing their every boundary violation, boorish behavior or thoughtless action. Can’t you spare a single moment to think of THEIR feelings, you heartless monster?
Yeah, me neither. Tough shit, that’s what I say.
You can’t PROVE you’re not creepy. Therein lies the word’s power.
Sure you can.
As PZ Myers points out, you do it by NOT doing or saying creepy, sexualizing, or objectifying things. And if you blow that, you can back off.
…say, I know I’ve been AWOL at teh World’s Largest Music Festival, but didn’t MRAL’s therapist suggest it was best for him to stay away from here?
Well yeah Poster, but if a girl thinks someone is creepy (for not being a sex symbol, okay, like Johnny Depp), she inevitably goes and gossips about this slimy peasant peon who had the HILARIOUS audacity to merely glance at Her Highness. Then he’s labeled as creepy by all her friends, and everyone they tell, and everyone they tell, etc., and he’s ultimately ostracized, all at the whim of some woman.
Yet apparently, clueless guys in elevators warrant the same level of kid-glove approach you think nobody else deserves.
So giving someone the benefit of the doubt instead of automatically applying the ‘creep’ label is now equal to the kid-glove approach? Do you even read what you write?
Millions of people manage this every day. They don’t make weak excuses for not doing it. They don’t say “Tough shit” and then get indignant when shit happens to them. They just gut up and do it because it’s what they’d want other people to do for them.
Do you honestly not see the irony in pounding out a spittle-laced diatribe against me and others for apparently “having our feelings hurt” (which doesn’t even make sense) when just a few minutes ago you were defending Watson’s right to feel uncomfortable and creeped out by a random guy in an elevator? I guess not. Self-awareness is not a mangina’s strong suit.
Yes, we are to some extent responsible for how other people feel about us. If I make racist remarks people will think I am a racist and I don’t get to whine if I’m later described as one.
Speaking for myself, yes I would be slightly alarmed at being propositioned by a bloke who’d never spoken to me before in a small windowless room at 4am, especially if I had just been talking about my dislike of being propositioned, meaning he might well have a casual disregard for boundaries, and if it appeared plausible that he had deliberately cornered me. It would indeed creep me out (that’s all Watson said; she didn’t call him, as a person, a creep, she used the word to describe her own feelings) and that would not be an unreasonable way to feel.
Elevator Guy might not have known how he made her feel, in which case she did him a favour by letting him know. Or he might not have cared, in which case he’s a creep. Or, less likely but possible – because there are guys like this and many women have terrible experiences of them – he might have known and relished it in which case he’s a creepy creep creepster of the clan McCreep.
How am I talking about myself? These are larger societal forces.
I asked him that very thing, ZRM. I found his answer unsatisfying.
Maybe he is-but what does it matter MRAL? He can go find some other female to ask out, there are, to use a well worn phrase, plenty of fish in the sea.
Also, I have a hard time believing that any woman thinks a guy is a creep for being ugly since I have never seen that in real life-just in movies/TV shows. Usually, if it is a decent movie/show, the stuck up girl learns her lesson about the guy being a good person underneath his ugly face.
Can we find someone other than Brad Pitt, PLEASE? I seriously think the MRAs have a total bone-on for Mr. Pitt. It ain’t me, babe.
Very little is positive at 4am. Time and place, people.
MRAL, there’s this literary device whose name escapes me at the moment where someone seems to be talking about one thing but is actually talking in a covert manner about another.
Yeah Poster, but TV’s fantasy. They get accurate situations (entitled woman rejects man cruelly) but fantasy solutions. In the real world, the flawed status quo simply persists.
What’s entitled to you, MRAL?
@MRAL
“but if a girl thinks someone is creepy (for not being a sex symbol, okay, like Johnny Depp)”
Why do you always think sex symbol = able to do no wrong? Michael Fassbender’s girlfriend had a restraining order put on him after he beat her up. And I revised my opinion of Russell Crowe after he threw that telephone.
It’s like you’re assuming that all women are incapable of learning, or never leave abusive boyfriends. Someone being hot (to me, which means having a definite tummy :P) is still important to me in a relationship, but I’m not fooling myself that that’s the only thing they need to have going for them.
tl;dr HOT MEN ARE CAPABLE OF BEING CREEPY/ASSHOLES AND SHOULDN’T GET PASSES FOR IT
.Men approach women. Yeah, 4 in the morning on an elevator is unusual, but it’s not that weird. If he accepted the rejection gracefully (and he did) there is absolutely NO problem and this woman is simply an arrogant, entitled person who has labeled this man for having the nerve not to look like Brad Pitt.
Yeah, pretty much what I said. Not only that, he was actually polite about it and apparently didn’t push the matter – at least it’s not mentioned. Doesn’t matter, still a creep. Men are just evil, I guess.
I haven’t read all the comments yet so this may have already been mentioned, but she just finished giving a talk on this very subject! It’s bad enough to approach her in an elevator at 4am, but when she just finished giving a talk on all of this crap? That’s not just creepy but it’s pretty damned idiotic too.
MRAL, there’s this literary device whose name escapes me at the moment where someone seems to be talking about one thing but is actually talking in a covert manner about another.
Damn Feminism!
Tabby, your icon is da bomb.
Again, not my experience. Then again, I do not hang out with women who are so shallow, I mean good looking, that they require a man to be as vapid, I mean as good looking, as they are.
Most of the women I know are polite enough to gently tell the guy no and only start being ruder as the guy refuses to take that no for an answer.
(talking about me for one second, just this once)
Pez, I actually think that with my awesome awesome awesome awesome awesome awesome awesome AWESOME new magnification glasses I will have more success. I think if I get a prime body (today I worked out until I almost threw up, haha) I can overcome my height and not be labelled creepy all the time.
So it’s not about me. I think I can rise above that. But I empathize with those men who can’t.
Also, “creepy” it not a euphemism for “unattractive”. There have been guys who I was not attractive to who propositioned me in totally not creepy ways whom I am still friends with years later! They did in it a way that made me feel not pressured and not manipulated, it was polite and they took my “no” at face value and were totally cool with hanging out as just-friends afterwards, and not even because they thought they could change my mind and get into my pants eventually! Amazing, these creatures exist! Several of them even.
er, make that “not attractED to”. Oops.
Your looks will have sweet fuckall to do with your success or lack thereof with the ladies, MRAL.
Ion, I doubt that making overtures to women in elevators is essential to elevator dude’s identity as a person.
If someone accuses you of making them feel uncomfortable because “OMG YOU ARE A DUDE AND I AM A DWORKIN-ESQUE IMAGINARY FEMINIST WHO SPITS ON DUDES FOR BEING DUDES” then yes you have a legitimate complaint.
Watson “accused” elevator dude of making her uncomfortable because he was behaving in an inconsiderate fashion. Yes, the fact that he was male did color how she interpreted his behavior; in a society where men and women are socialized to play very different roles, that is somewhat inevitable. But the essential problem wasn’t his dude-ness. It was his behavior.
Again, not complicated.
We’ll see about that, hellkell.
(Protip: you’re wrong, that’s all that matters, and I bet my experience in college next year will prove it)
Tabby, reminds me of this one incident with Cate Edwards giving a speech and afterwards a guy asked me for some paper to write his number to give to Ms Edwards.
I said “You know, she will not call you if you just give her your number. She has a lot of guys doing that. Why not ask her if she would mind IMing with you instead so she can get to know you a little better first?”
So what did he do? He gave her his number. *sigh*
Well I will say this about MRAL-I think he will admit he is wrong when he learns that not all women are like in the movies or apparently high school.
Then don’t be surprised if you meet someone just as superficial as you who in turn reinforces all your fucked-up thoughts about how women are.
Hellkell –
Your looks will have sweet fuckall to do with your success or lack thereof with the ladies, MRAL.
I actually don’t think that’s true. For a lot of people looks = confidence and confidence = success.
Seconding what Plymouth said.
I’ve been asked out, and even flat-out propositioned for sex, by perfectly decent men to whom I wasn’t attracted, in situations where I felt both safe and sure that a “no” would be respected. They weren’t creeps. The considerably better looking bloke who leers down your cleavage and tries his best to catch you drunk and alone? Creep.
Excellent post, David. It’s great to hear something good may come from this dust-up in the end.
We can also conclude the word “creepy” has some amazing powers, if it can even make a sooper-smarty like Dawkins puke out his lady issues.
As a seasoned troll I already knew that creeps hate being called out, but it’s great to see it in action.
“So giving someone the benefit of the doubt instead of automatically applying the ‘creep’ label is now equal to the kid-glove approach? Do you even read what you write?”
As MissPrisim points out, Watson said his behavior creeped her out or was creepy, not that he himself was a “creep”. This I why I say you and other people like you are overly-sensitive whiners. She didn’t even say about him what you’re claiming, but in your mind she clearly labeled him and you’re all het up about it. She had an opinion about his behavior, she didn’t claim that she read his mind and he was a secret serial rapist. So yes, practically demanding she not use any negative terms at all to describe this guy’s behavior is pretty much exactly the kind of kid-glove approach you heap so much derision on.
“Do you honestly not see the irony in pounding out a spittle-laced diatribe against me and others for apparently “having our feelings hurt” (which doesn’t even make sense) when just a few minutes ago you were defending Watson’s right to feel uncomfortable and creeped out by a random guy in an elevator? I guess not. Self-awareness is not a mangina’s strong suit.”
Oh no, he called me a mangina. Quick, someone get me to the fainting couch.
Lemme see if I can simplify this for you. When you make other people feel uncomfortable, you’re not the real victim, even if it was not your intent to make them uncomfortable. If you realize you’re doing it or they tell you that that’s what you’re doing, you apologize, explain yourself politely and maybe try to learn from the experience so you don’t do it again. Or, I suppose, you can get your ass all chapped over it and tear into them for stepping out of line and daring to think such things about such a perfect specimen of humanity. I’m sure that approach works real well.
Asking you to try to be aware of what’s going on around you, what you do and how you act is not asking you to rewrite the collected works of William Shakespeare from memory using toilet paper and chalk. If you’re going to look at it as being impossible or not worth your time, I’m going to call you a whiner. Chances are I won’t be alone. Deal with it, whiner.
Plymouth,
Maybe at the very beginning, but if there’s no there there or a there that hates women, looks won’t go far.
Plymouth, MRAL still buys into his Greek Letter Hierarchy paradigm — he just thinks he’s been promoted from omega to beta. The basic worldview is still the same, so . . .
Also, what MissPrism said: “Creep” is not particularly subjective, there are plenty of objective criteria for labeling someone a creep.
Molly, thanks. I got it from The Onion some time back.
MRAL, holy crap, stop making it all about YOU! Can we please have one thread that doesn’t become the trials and tribulations of Omega Man?!?!
PFKaE, gotta love when people don’t take simple, good advice.
Now back to this story, Rebecca Watson is now in a can’t win situation. Teh Dudez and Dude apologists are claiming that she’s accused poor Elevator Guy of practically raping her and all he did was ask her an innocent question for an innocent cup of coffee, yet if she took him up on it and actually got assaulted, then OMG! What does she expect for putting herself in that situation!!?!?
Just. Can’t. Win.
Apparently she was only supposed to say no and not have any feelings about it at all or if she did, she needed to keep her mouth shut cuz like women are to be seen and not heard.
If someone accuses you of making them feel uncomfortable because “OMG YOU ARE A DUDE AND I AM A DWORKIN-ESQUE IMAGINARY FEMINIST WHO SPITS ON DUDES FOR BEING DUDES” then yes you have a legitimate complaint.
Watson “accused” elevator dude of making her uncomfortable because he was behaving in an inconsiderate fashion. Yes, the fact that he was male did color how she interpreted his behavior; in a society where men and women are socialized to play very different roles, that is somewhat inevitable. But the essential problem wasn’t his dude-ness. It was his behavior.
He was behaving in a fashion that SHE judged as inconsiderate/uncomfortable/creepy (sorry for repeating, but she did use the word). Based on the facts presented, I don’t agree. She never did mention her reaction to his question, or what happened after, but we can assume nothing more came of it and they went their separate ways. She then chose to make an issue out of it by mentioning this ‘creep’ on her blog. People took offense to the description, again based on the facts. That’s it. Like you said, I don’t know what’s so complicated.
Alright, no more talking about me.
Agreed, MRAL, let’s all move on.
Ion wrote, “She then chose to make an issue out of it by mentioning this ‘creep’ on her blog. People took offense to the description, again based on the facts. That’s it. Like you said, I don’t know what’s so complicated.”
Ion’s first comment on this thread: “My guess – the guy wasn’t attractive. If he had been, she would’ve been recounting it the next day as an exotic adventure.”
Why you gotta make it so complicated, Ion?
PFKaE: “Apparently she was only supposed to say no and not have any feelings about it at all or if she did, she needed to keep her mouth shut cuz like women are to be seen and not heard.”
Of course! And it is much more important that Elevator Dude is never potentially made sad by being told that his approach was inappropriate, than Rebecca’s desire to feel safe!
For MRAL: A question, a comment, and an apology.
Question: Do you think that “creepy” is word that only applies to men? When it’s applied to women do you think it’s slurring them by associating them with masculinity? Because where I come from, it’s fairly commonplace to gossip about “creepy” women.
Comment: Different social circles are different, but in experience building up a reputation as a creep is actually pretty difficult, and people are usually happy to give men they know socially the benefit of the doubt. I’m a little socially clueless, a major flirt, and I form strong attachments quickly, and as a consequence I have definitely creeped out quite a few women (in most cases through my own error, in a few through a blameless mismatch of personalities.) At my college I’ve personally creeped out at least 4 people I was attracted to, and I feel bad about that, but it really hasn’t affect my life much. Most of my friends don’t seem to know, or if they heard they assume it can’t have been that bad, or they’re willing to forgive or don’t see it as their business. And my dating life is fine too.
A protip for hitting on anybody, if your line starts with, “Don’t take this the wrong way….” you already know you are saying something that, well, CAN BE TAKEN THE WRONG WAY. So, perhaps you should remove your head from your ass and not say things that can possibly be taken the wrong way. Oh and in an elevator, alone at 4 am may not be the best place to proposition someone. Even if you’re still a selfish person thinking only of yourself, you might cause a trigger for someone and they may harm you because they fear for their own safety.
We can also conclude the word “creepy” has some amazing powers, if it can even make a sooper-smarty like Dawkins puke out his lady issues.
As a seasoned troll I already knew that creeps hate being called out, but it’s great to see it in action.
You realize that makes about as much sense as calling you a “feminazi” and then claiming you ‘hate being called out’ if you take any offense to it, right?