Two atheists get in an elevator
So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:
Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?
Then Richard Dawkins says,
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Richard
In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:
Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.
Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?
In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)
The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing. Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.
The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were. Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):
So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’
Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.
That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:
What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?
Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies. She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.
Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.
Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:
I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”
In a followup post, she noted:
When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.
And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.
Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.
They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.
And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:
I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.
She didn’t shut up.
So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.
Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc – Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.
Posted on July 6, 2011, in creepy, feminism, hypocrisy, misogyny, oppressed men, patriarchy, rape, reactionary bullshit, sexual harassment, threats. Bookmark the permalink. 1,701 Comments.
Is that how instinct works captainbathrobe? Gotcha, is a woman feels a man is bad he is. Best lock all men up to avoid any foul play. No point in locking the barn after the horse got away, right?
Holly, we’ve already proven that you are an anti-snowcone hippo-crate. Don’t try to pretend otherwise.
Firebee – That’s true. (I think it doesn’t help that Schrodinger’s cat is usually described as a 50-50 scenario, and obviously there are nowhere near that many rapists.)
It would be better described as the “You know you’re not a rapist (unless you are) but I don’t know you’re not a rapist” Principle.
…yeah, that’s pithy.
Well, nobody said it was a good idea to give the “pithy label finding” assignment to an INTP.
Perhaps so, Holly. The thing is, as I said earlier, the men who need to understand that aren’t going to accept it.
To them, any woman who sets her comfort level as being rightfully unaccepting of any uncouth behavior, even if not clearly threatening, as creepy, then they will always and forever cry that “women are treating men like potential rapists.”
Because their silly little fee-fees are more important than a woman’s safety.
lol.
NWO, I was saying just the opposite. Everyone knows women are natural gatherers, not hunters. A woman’s natural instincts are to crush a man up in a stone bowl with roots and herbs. Hardly an appropriate response to the situation.
@Bee
How will men know if a woman is too tired to talk?
How will men know if a particular woman doesn’t want to be hit on?
How will men know if a woman just got out of a bad relationship?
How will men so all the many things you all seem to mention, since as you all continually say all women are different?
I mean hell, even elevator guy asking to talk to the girl. On another occasion a different girl may have said, “I don’t want want coffee but I sure could use some sex!”
Is there a register where every woman is listed as to their individual tastes, at which time of the day, for each season, ect?
Firebee – You know what the whole Schrodinger’s Rapist scenaro kind of reminds me of?
I used to work at a boat rental dock. We’d ask people to leave their driver’s licence when they rented a boat, to try to guard against theft.
Most people said “of course, I understand,” and dropped off their licence. But now and then someone would get really angry that I was accusing them of being a thief. “How dare you imply that? I’m not a thief!”
And what I couldn’t say in so many words was: “You know you’re not a thief. But me, I just met you. I don’t know the first thing about you. So how the hell do I know you’re not a thief?”
It’s the same principle–you aren’t being suspected, you just aren’t being trusted until you’ve earned it.
(Also, people who got indignant about the “you think I’m a dirty thief!” thing were far more likely to try to steal stuff.)
In my experience, yes.
Women are socialised to care more about their appearance. Men, In a lot of cases, are taught that if they put effort into how they present themselves (including basic hygiene), that means they’re effeminate or gay. This seems to be changing, however.
“(Also, people who got indignant about the “you think I’m a dirty thief!” thing were far more likely to try to steal stuff.)”
Awkward guys, take note. Stop denying your privilege and accept that you are a Schrodinger’s Rapist. You are protesting too much otherwise.
Anyway, Holly, I agree completely, but some people don’t understand the difference between “suspected” and “not trusted.”
“(Also, people who got indignant about the “you think I’m a dirty thief!” thing were far more likely to try to steal stuff.)”
I have some strong suspicions that a parallel can be drawn here.
How will men know if a woman is too tired to talk?
How will men know if a particular woman doesn’t want to be hit on?
How will men know if a woman just got out of a bad relationship?
How will men so all the many things you all seem to mention, since as you all continually say all women are different?
You can’t know. So it’s okay to ask. It’s okay to hit on women and ask them out.
What’s not okay is to be upset when you hear “no.” When you hear “no,” just trust that there’s a good reason and leave it at that.
And what’s also not okay is to ask under situations where you do know it would be unwelcome or frightening–for instance, if the woman had just asked people not to hit on her, or if you were total strangers in an elevator where she couldn’t easily get away.
Thats a fine analogy Holly Pervocracy.
Except Schrodinger’s Rapist, is a rapist. Of that there is no doubt.
When you asked for ID was it followed with, because you are a thief.
Also you said… “It’s the same principle–you aren’t being suspected, you just aren’t being trusted until you’ve earned it.”
This imply’s “his” trust must be earned “her’s” his taken for granted.
How will men know if a particular woman doesn’t want to be hit on?
If that particular woman just GAVE A FUCKING SPEECH about how she doesn’t want to be hit on, that’s a pretty big hint.
Christ on a cracker, why do MRA’s find that so hard to understand?
Are we on 10? Anyway:
10. If you dislike or distrust women (or the individual woman you’re approaching), this will show on your face and in your voice. It is extremely creepy–super, high-level creepy–to try to get access to a pussy while disliking the woman it’s attached to.
Stop being obtuse, NWO.
Here, let me make it easy for you.
You’d go a very long way in doing the right thing if you follow this simple guideline:
“When talking to a female, always make sure to give her an easy escape route.”
“You can’t know. So it’s okay to ask. It’s okay to hit on women and ask them out.”
Which is fine Holly, except the article from that fine woman has accused the man of being a creep. Why is that OK?
Holly Pervocracy, Thats the problem. Men DO trust women. Women have been indoctrinated to distrust men.
NWO, you aren’t arguing in good faith. I mean, you haven’t been arguing in good faith for months, but this is really getting to me.
Are you really asking when it’s okay to hit on a woman because you’re curious to hear the answer?
Are you really concerned that men are never allowed to hit on women?
Are you really worried that men are all thought of as rapists, every one of you? Does this make you really (as in, actual fear, not pure ideology) worry about your safety or your expectation of justice?
Are these questions you ask things that you really want answers to, and are these objections you raise things that really bother you?
Or is your thought process more like “she posted something… find the flaw… quick, find the flaw… any flaw… I can win this!”
He hit on her after she made a speech about how she doesn’t like getting hit on at conferences. That’s creepy behaviour, and she was right to call him on it.
@caseymordred, “an easy escape route”
The hatred of men. This is your accepted indoctrination.
Imagine being indocrinated to be so hated and distrusted that you need to leave an escape route for someone else. Bet that would hurt, huh?
Are ya really sure you haven’t been indoctrinated?
Gotcha, is a woman feels a man is bad he is. Best lock all men up to avoid any foul play. No point in locking the barn after the horse got away, right?
and
How will men know if a woman is too tired to talk?
How will men know if a particular woman doesn’t want to be hit on?
How will men know if a woman just got out of a bad relationship?
How will men so all the many things you all seem to mention, since as you all continually say all women are different?
I think this is why every convo w/ NWO always ends up as 2 ppl talking on 2 different tracks xD Cuz I think what’s going on here is that ppl are talking that “here are things that are likely to make a woman uncomfortable and so she’s not likely to be amenable to your asking her out or she’d feel unsafe and leave”..
from those quotes above, I think what NWO is hearing is “if you make a woman feel uncomfortable, she will have you locked away”… in which case NWO’s reaction to this WHOLE THING is suddenly understandable, b/c he believes that the consequences of what a woman personally thinks about a guy, isn’t just that in her mind she thinks “ew creep, bye now” .. he believes it then goes something happens and the man is locked up…. xD
So suddenly having perfect knowledge of a woman’s thoughts (OR I suppose what he’s proposing is women have no thoughts he doesn’t approve of) becomes absolutely important b/c a negative thought or opinion by a woman of a man = lock men up. xD
that’s why Holly’s response of “you never really know what a person’s thinking, so go ahead and ask, you just might get a no” thing isn’t reasonable to him, cuz the result to him is “if you get a no, you get locked up” xD
at least that’s what I can tell… o_O
Men trust women?
Can I have your credit card number?
What article? o_O
I’m fairly certain that if that were true, NWOslave would have been locked up a long time ago.
Or is your thought process more like “she posted something… find the flaw… quick, find the flaw… any flaw… I can win this!”
that can’t be it Holly… NWO comes to his conclusions irrespective of gender, and he comes to them without previous bias..
WE’RE the ones who desperately need to find the flaws in what men say, hence why we keep arguing w/ NWO, if NWO was a woman and said everything he said, we’d be agreeing w/ him (much like how I agree w/ everything M. Andrea and DirtyWhiteBoi say xD)
In the past, I’ve taken a couple approaches to explaining this — which, I have to admit, haven’t necessarily met with a huge amount more success than the original article, but sometimes I get the “Oh, firebee, you are all reasonable and shit but this woman, she is hysterical and frightened and etc.”
This being, one, I’ve done the “Come on, think about it, if I don’t know you then obviously I don’t know how awesome you are — think about what you know about other people that you just see” and then try and analogize to something the person might find familiar — judgements that you make on the highway if they’re likely to be a driver, their preferred way of categorizing threats if they seem to be a self-defense hobbyist, things like that.
And then I’ve also gone from the other end and said — it’s not entirely about rape. It’s also about how when I’m in public I not only get to say no to surprise sex, but also to petition people, panhandlers, people who persist in demanding real-time book reports, et cetera. Some behavior which annoy me do also ring alarm bells for some kind of more serious intrusion, which is part of the basis for how and why I refuse them, but at base I have the right to be left alone even without extensive justification.
It seems like the stumbling block for both of these approaches is a question of entitlement, like implied in slave dude’s post above, the man wants to talk to you “=” the man gets to talk to you. One is not meant to let one’s concern for personal safety or one’s desire to be left alone interfere with serving one’s purpose as entertainment.
NWO, I’m a guy. But the thing is, I accept that I am privileged, and that I need to be ready to check it whenever a woman asks me to do so. As long as patriarchial society exists, privilege exists, there is no way a man can escape the fact that he is privileged and needs to check it.
I also accept that women fear sexual assault as a matter of course because of the disproportionate male perpetrator to female victim ratio, and thus they have every right to instantly scrutinize you and find you wanting.
You talk that “men trust women but women are taught to always distrust men,” well I think that’s an oversimplification, but even if it were true, so what? Because of the power imbalances, misandry is not morally equivalent to misogyny, so get that through your pretty little head already.
@Spearhafoc I have wondered about that… ever since his “a rape accusation is enough evidence to get a man locked up” thing added to his statement that every man has been accused at least once in his life, and that women calling him a rape apologist on the internet is a rape accusation. xD
Shouldn’t every man then be locked up? o_O If me or Holly have all this power, how come we even keep the trolls around? xD If we’re rly such a man-hating conspiracy and the state serves US, why go thru the song and dance of this stuff, why not have every man rounded up and killed? o_O
No Ami dearest, your beautiful eval of my psyche is ellegant as always but completely bullshit.
The point as always is, women have swallowed their indoctrination completely.
Heres the scenario which plays out every day. Man approaches woman who has never been hurt by a man, yet she feels afraid at his mere approach. What is her fear based on? Indoctrination, plain and simple. She is taught to fear men. Why? Because men are bad.
Since the majority of women are NOT ever hurt by men the only reason a woman would fear a man is because of indoctrination. In fact, the majority of women have been HELPED by men. You are TAUGHT to fear men.
caseymordred, You accept that you are privileged because you’ve been indoctrinated to believe that. You are part of the problem.
At least I figured out how to get him to just SAY what he believes xD
Typical privilege denying bullshit. Of course you don’t see your privilege, that’s how privileged you are.
“why not have every man rounded up and killed? o_O”
Why bother, when we already in an all but literal sense have them all chained to the grinding wheel, forced to bear the lash whilst doing our dirty, dirty, also oily labor with their… gleaming muscles…
… s’cuse me a moment…
[repeat in hope he acknowledges it]
NWO, you aren’t arguing in good faith.
Are you really asking when it’s okay to hit on a woman because you’re curious to hear the answer?
Are you really concerned that men are never allowed to hit on women?
Are you really worried that men are all thought of as rapists, every one of you? Does this make you really (as in, actual fear, not pure ideology) worry about your safety or your expectation of justice?
Do you genuinely fear that you–personally–will be harmed or go to jail because you hit on a woman?
Are these questions you ask things that you really want answers to, and are these objections you raise things that really bother you?
NWO, who do you believe is best able, free of indoctrination to judge things? :3 Who do you think should have final objective say? :3
@caseymordred, Yikes. Every wonder why men think feminist logic is circular. Look at your last statement.
Ami, because you need them to do the hard and dangerous work. Duh.
NWO doesn’t strike me as the sort to let a beautiful reality get in the way of an ugly theory.
Slaveman: How will men know if a woman is too tired to talk?
How will men know if a particular woman doesn’t want to be hit on?
How will men know if a woman just got out of a bad relationship?
How will men so all the many things you all seem to mention, since as you all continually say all women are different?
I mean hell, even elevator guy asking to talk to the girl. On another occasion a different girl may have said, “I don’t want want coffee but I sure could use some sex!”
In this specific case, the woman in question had just said that she was tired and was going to bed. Pretty clear signal that she was too tired to talk.
She had also said, repeatedly and in this guy’s company, that she didn’t like being hit on.
I’m not talking about guys reading women’s minds. I’m just saying that in this scenario:
Man: Hey, I noticed you from across the bar. You look lonely. Can I buy you a drink?
Woman: Thank you, but you know, I actually just wanted to sit here by myself tonight. I have a lot on my mind.
A respectful response is:
Man: Well, have a good evening, then.
Not:
Man: Oh, come on. Just one drink? I’m a really good listener!
Even that isn’t awful. Points lost for not getting the hint, but he’s still being fairly respectful.
Woman: Thanks, but no. I just don’t want company tonight. Another time, maybe.
Man: You’re killing me with that smile! Come on, I don’t bite. I’ll just sit down and we can chat about what’s going on. What’s your name again?
So, that’s going too far. BE RESPECTFUL.
Jesus fuck. I can’t understand why a statement saying that guys (and women) who want to avoid being seen as creepy should listen to their intended target’s statements of what they want and try to not overstep any clear boundaries is a fucking controversy to anyone. Even you, slaveman.
Let’s take this one step at a time. xD
NWO, by your statement, you then imply that you believe women who HAVE been harmed by men are justified to fear them.
Correct? :]
Let’s forget HOW MANY… or even what you mean by “harm”. Let’s start w/ that :3
Deny it all you want NWO, it’s still true.
You aren’t allowed to decide for yourself whether you’re a decent human being. That’s up to other people to decide.
After all, otherwise, men could say the most sexist things in the world and then say “it’s not sexist unless I say it is,” or “I’m a feminist because I say so.”
Therefore.
I’ve answered enough of your questions Ami. How about you answer mine for a change. Do me a favor though, keep the emotes to a minimum. I find them to be condecending, as if you belive everything is a big old joke.
Heres the question.
Should a woman, who has never been harmed by a man feel afraid or creeped out if a man approaches her, no matter the circumstances? Please explain your answer.
Actually, i have an even simpler question for NWO! And on topic too xD
If this is all indoctrination, WITHOUT indoctrination how do you believe Skepchick would have reacted to the guy in the elevator (how she reacted was a result of her thought process which you believe is indoctrination)? :3 I.e. how do you believe she SHOULD have reacted?
Is it ok if I think CaseyMordred is not helping? -_- Let’s can the “you’re too privileged to know you’re privileged” (which yeah… o_O) thing ok? :3
Circumstances always matter.
Ami, it’s right there on the Male Privilege Checklist. I’m not saying anything unusual here.
1. If a man walks up to you in a deserted parking lot, it’s mostly likely he needs direction or some other assistance, or he just might like to talk to you. DO NOT act like he is a creep or a criminal. DO NOT treat him like a second class citizen. DO NOT roll your eyes, condesend or act aloof in any manner. DO NOT dramatize with your friends about the creep who approached you. You are not a superior being.
If I am in a deserted parking lot and a guy starts walking up to me I might feel nervous because *I* have no idea why he is approaching me. He could be doing it for the innocuous reason of “help, I need directions” or he could be doing it for less pleasant reasons. If it is at night, it is worse because there is less light for other people to see me being hurt even if I am screaming as loudly as I can.
If I am aloof it is not because I am “superior” it is because a strange man in a deserted parking lot has approached me and I have no idea why. That reserve is there to keep the distance to prevent me from being harmed. YOU may not think I or any woman has the right to be reserved around a strange man, but you are also an idiot.
2. If a man approaches you and he’s filthy and dirty and he looks like he just buried a corpse, this is because men do virtually all the dirty, dangerous manual labor. He may in fact have just buried a corpse. When he approaches dirty he does so because you are there now when he got off work. DO NOT look down on him because your clothes are clean and he is dirty. DO NOT roll your eyes at him for approaching while dirty. DO NOT act like he is beneath you because of his attire. You are not a superior being.
There is a difference between a man who is obviously coming straight from work and the guy I am referring too-and you know that. But it is easier to claim that this is about women thinking they are superior to men for you and not about our being concerned about someone who could hurt us.
3. DO NOT act as if women are cleaner than men. DO NOT manipulate every situation to make men out as either abusive/inferior, or women as victims/superior. In other words, break the cycle of misandric indoctrination.
Oh I am sorry, did my pointing out that a guy who does not smell like a urine factory is more likely to not be thought of as creepy then a man who has taken a bath in a week bother you? Trying to care but…nope, do not care.
@Bee
We have the dialogue from this prize of a woman and the guy sounded pretty respectful. Yet he’s still a creep, right?
“Context is not important.”
You know, concerning that matter of indoctrination, there was an… Ion exchange… right at the top of the thread that neatly encapsulated one of the things I laugh bitterly about as regards this question of rape and rape products. It went roughly like:
1) She didn’t have anything to be concerned about in an elevator at 4 in the morning.
followed immediately by
2) Why was she, a woman, in an elevator at 4 in the morning?
Which strikes me as one of the more compact real-world representations of what fear-of-rape is meant to mean to women, in the “rape culture” (I think is the right word for it?). One is by all means meant to have a vague and unactionable fear of rape, when it comes to matters that restrict one’s freedom of moment — I can’t drive between cities after dark because of the rapists that run at 75 miles per hour, say. But when it comes to specific and actionable items such as “That particular person is standing next to my car door, and that other person would be flanking me if I approached my car,” that’s not okay because they might be really awesome human beings or something. I’m meant to be generally afeared of being in the parking lot at all instead.
I might cynically say that I seem to be encouraged to engage in every precaution except the ones that might actually keep me from being raped.
NWOslave | July 7, 2011 at 9:40 pm
I’ve answered enough of your questions Ami. How about you answer mine for a change. Do me a favor though, keep the emotes to a minimum. I find them to be condecending, as if you belive everything is a big old joke.
Heres the question.
Should a woman, who has never been harmed by a man feel afraid or creeped out if a man approaches her, no matter the circumstances? Please explain your answer.
Here we go again, that NYAH NYAH I wun answer your questions thing xD You’re the one who treats this as a game xD even tho according to you I’M the one hurting real ppl xD
This is why I’m asking you my question (which AS USUAL, when you can’t answer, you dodge it even tho the question is KEY to me being able to answering yours xD) What do you mean by “harm”? o_O
NO MATTER the circumstances?
Should ANY woman?
Without me even knowing her? xD
So you’re asking me “in a situation you know nothing about, can you make a final all encompassing statement for all situations?”
in which case the answer to THAT question is no..
Actually your question makes you sense… you went from the general to the specific.. I’ll fix it up xD
Should any woman, who has never been harmed by a man ever feel afraid or creeped out if a man approaches her, no matter the circumstances? Please explain your answer.
The answer is yes. The explanation is b/c I have no idea anythng about the situation xD
It’d be like saying Should any man, who has never been accused by a woman ever feel afraid or worried that a woman he is with might accuse him of rape, no matter the circumstances?
xD
I’m starting to feel like Caseymordred IS here to goad us into agreeing w/ certain thiings… xD
Firebee, I pointed that contradiction out to Ion, that he believes that a woman should simultaneously fear for her safety and not fear for her safety.
He didn’t seem to understand.
PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
Man + darkness + empty parking lot = fear. Excellent indoctrination.
Forget it, you all win again as usual. With all my privilege I guess I’ll never be able to see it. The answers I get are excuses. I guess men should be feared and hated for the fear they instill.
Good night.
Slaveman: This is just me, but if I have to tell a guy more than twice that I’m not interested, I’m gonna be irritated. No matter how nice he’s being about it. I didn’t want to write a dialog where the guy is being a complete idiot, because then you’d be saying, Oh sure … I guess Bee thinks all guys are creeps who talk about penises and blowjobs to women they don’t know. Which I don’t.
Anyway, I’m willing to buy that the guy didn’t quite understand me the first time. If I say, “I’m not interested,” I’ll accept that a not-creepy guy could plausibly hear “I want to play hard to get.” Make me repeat myself a third time, and it’s really fucking clear that you are not listening to me, or that you don’t think that what I want matters. And that’s a HUGE warning bell.
My point — and it’s alarming that you are unable to grasp it — is that IF A WOMAN SAYS SHE’S NOT INTERESTED — NO MATTER WHAT THE REASON OR HOW NICELY SHE’S SAYING IT, THEN THE PERSON APPROACHING HER SHOULD RESPECT THAT SHE IS NOT INTERESTED AND LEAVE HER ALONE.
I feel like maybe the all caps helped. Did the all caps make it more clear, slaveman?
I’m sorry if I’m wrongly giving that impression, Ami. What am I saying that gives the impression?
There’s currently a comment on the original video that mentioned the elevator incident that describes, in horror-movie-style detail, how the author of said comment wants to rape and torture Skepchick.
And they wonder how being on an elevator with a man could be scary.
This is terrorism.
I think I’ve officially given up on NWO. He doesn’t think about the things we say except in the “which part is easiest to twist and rebut?” sense. He’s not here to learn, and he’s not here to talk. He’s just here to say… the things he says… until his keyboard breaks.
And then he will declare victory over his keyboard, that stupid keyboard that thought it could resist him.
Hey NWOaf-my dad once threw me at a wall so do *I* get to fear men?
Bee, maybe if you used some smileys. That seems to get Silly’s attention. :)
But srsly… xD Since he’s back to his “this is so super serious real men are being harmed but not serious enuf for me to not make this a Q&A game” xD I’ll ask in the third person to everybody xD everything seems to be about her thoughts. she SHOULD have not thought he was making her uncomfortable, she SHOULD not have been creeped out…
so.. therefore if her thought process was wrong and should be changed… therefore.. how SHOULD she have acted there? (cuz she didn’t tell him he was creepy, he didn’t even punch him or run off screaming xD she was polite I think? o_O)
how should she have acted to the guy in order to prove that she’s not indoctrinated? xD
Holly Pervocracy | July 7, 2011 at 9:56 pm
I think I’ve officially given up on NWO. He doesn’t think about the things we say except in the “which part is easiest to twist and rebut?” sense. He’s not here to learn, and he’s not here to talk. He’s just here to say… the things he says… until his keyboard breaks.
And then he will declare victory over his keyboard, that stupid keyboard that thought it could resist him.
I think you got it in one xD
Holly, a couple of people (including me) have asked Silly why he posts here, and he pretty much said, “I’m here to troll this blog.”
Oh wait a sec, I see. I misunderstood your point, slaveman. My mistake.
Yes, I think that in Watson’s specific case, the guy in question wasn’t AS BAD as he could have been. She turned him down in the elevator, and presumably he said “OK” and went on his way.
It’s that he even asked, after listening to her talk ALL DAY about how sick she was of being hit on in atheist circles, and after hearing her say that she wanted to go to sleep, that kind of tips the balance here. Clearly, he wasn’t paying attention to what she was talking about, or thought that he was exceptional, or didn’t really care what she said — or something.
And that’s annoying.
I think she should trust her own judgement regarding her own personal safety. Erring on the side of caution is probably prudent.
You know, I have no problem not cornering people I am talking to/prospective dates in such a way as to prevent their escape.
Also, I know of no woman who has not been harmed by a man or threatened with such harm. Does such a woman exist? If she does, she is certainly not in the majority.
PS, if you need directions, it is a bad idea and a creepy threatening behavior to approach people who are alone in a parking lot late at night. Consider, instead, going inside and asking the bartender or clerk for directions, assistence, or use of a phone.
@Fuck MRAs ok you know I dun agree w/ you that this is terrorism xD
But in terms of a woman on the internet receiving rape threats when attn turns on her, it’s unfortunately something that happens so often :\ Like female comics bloggers got it… Liss from Shakesville got it SEVERAL times (incl when condemning rape xD ), even I’VE gotten it when I wrote a satire piece that vegetarians took seriously and got offended by. xD The comments there (annd my inbox) were FILLED w/ rape threats -_-