Two atheists get in an elevator
So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:
Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?
Then Richard Dawkins says,
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Richard
In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:
Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.
Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?
In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)
The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing. Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.
The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were. Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):
So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’
Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.
That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:
What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?
Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies. She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.
Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.
Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:
I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”
In a followup post, she noted:
When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.
And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.
Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.
They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.
And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:
I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.
She didn’t shut up.
So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.
Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc – Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.
Posted on July 6, 2011, in creepy, feminism, hypocrisy, misogyny, oppressed men, patriarchy, rape, reactionary bullshit, sexual harassment, threats. Bookmark the permalink. 1,701 Comments.
@Ami I think it’s unreasonable. The Iranian players wouldn’t be allowed to leave the country to play in the first place unless they followed the Iranian dress code, and I think the team made every effort to adapt the hijab to FIFA’s dress code. They didn’t run into any problems in the preliminary matches, either.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/06/08/opinion/main20070233.shtml
The FIFA officials claim that the Iranian team had plenty of warning about headscarves, but that doesn’t jibe with the timing of the ruling, which was handed down just before the game was due to kick off.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/united/olympics-2012-fifa-bans-headscarves-for-irans-women-soccer-team/2011/06/06/AGzT1JKH_story.html
It also seems that the current head of FIFA proposed in 2004 that the soccer players wear hot pants”to boost the sport’s popularity.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/jan/16/football.gender
I think FIFA’s behaved pretty badly in this.
@Elizabeth my friend had a girl who was incredibly creepy and pushy to him too… -_-;; She kept pushing him for sex and trying to drag him out of his house late at night for it… and was doing weird creepy things like inappropriate sexual come ons.. .. it was f-ed up and I was like “no, you don’t need this….” and “what’s she doing is wrong, and extremely creepy… get away from her” it was so f-ed up >:|
Plus he had just gotten out of a rly awful abusive relationship that I was trying so hard to get him to realize… and how manipulative and f-ed up his ex was. but it was so much like my mom and my dad :\ He kept being guilted back, she’d act like HE was the bad guy, and threaten to leave him so he could cheat on her like she knew he wanted to (even tho she was SO in love with her, but she KNEW this)… and it’s just… :( except this time I’m an adult and I can help… and I used stuff detailing power/control and abuse dynamics to show him, and telling him it doesn’t matter their genders… see what she’s doing? I was so afraid of him pushing me away too :( esp since she had isolated him from ALL his friends (except me…) which is a classic abuser tactic >:| I’m so glad he finally got away… :] I was SO happy for him…
But then that other creepy girl showed up bur at least both are gone from his life :] But yeah, I called that s- out… >:| Abuse and creepiness can happen to men too and by women and my reaction isn’t less if the genders are reversed >:\ nor did I tell him what a bad guy he was for not giving it up to creepy girl, or that when he said he was creeped out, I wasn’t like “oh I’m sure she means well… what’s wrong with you that you won’t go f- her!? do you understand how she should be applauded as an assertive girl?” >_<;;
Outside of my distaste for having to change their behavior because their society thinks men are incapable of controlling themselves when they see a woman’s hair on her head, if they want to wear tutus if it does not interfere with the game, who cares?
Papr1ka, that thing you said Man Boobz needs? Tomorrow.
Spear, if I could give you guys a preview button I would, but alas it is not an option.
Oy Ami, sounds like a tough situation, glad to hear it is finally over and he escaped her clutches.
For my BF, I had to try very hard to not jump in with his second to last relationship with the way she was behaving until invited me to comment because that is what friends do. She was demanding, clingy, whiny, complained about me all the time (even though BF and I were barely talking) and would demand things like “you cannot invite her to your sister’s birthday party because I cannot stand to look at her knowing she has seen you naked.” She also tried to convince him I was not his friend because I was letting him have the space to work on his relationship.
Finally it almost (but not quite) came down to picking between us and he said he would rather have my friendship then her “love.”
Then he tried to get me to go to Chicago to the YDA convention that he had disinvited me from going with him on because of her.
@Hippodameia re: mandatory hot pants
http://ami-rants.blogspot.com/2011/05/if-its-not-sexist-why-dun-guys-have-to.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_IIHF_Women's_World_Championship
For unknown reasons, the Canadian Amateur Hockey Association decided that the Canadian team should wear pink and white uniforms instead of the expected red and white.
unfortunately these things aren’t unusual in women’s sports :\
I am trying to decide if I should go home now or later because I have nothing going on here but also have not much to do at home.
Aaaaand that is why I plan on dressing my kids in green and yellow until they are old enough to express a preference.
Uh oh >:| They will grow up to be Green and Sinestro Lanterns!
Elizabeth,
I missed that! Sorry. Great minds think alike and all that. Yes, the female analog to creepy is definitely crazy, psycho, or some variation thereof.
And, yes, boiling bacon is just flat-out wrong.
You know, I honestly do have some sympathy for guys who say it can be tough to avoid being seen as “creepy”. Just saying – “Don’t be creepy – you know how!” isn’t useful. It’s not entirely cut and dried – there IS some subjectivity, where things some people think are creepy are not seen as creepy by others.
That said, there are some broad brush guidelines that hold for most people. That’s what confuses me so much about this – people are upset to see some of those guidelines spelled out! People are upset to be told SPECIFICS about how not to be creepy! They’re even trying to generalize from those specifics and accuse women of saying ALL come-ons are creepy. Which is just… what the fuck. I think some people just wanna have an excuse to feel sorry for themselves so they refuse to listen to anything that might make their lives better.
Posterformerlyknownaselizabeth, that’s Aussie sports colours – they can play for the Matildas!
If by ‘some people’ you mean MRA’s, then yes, you’d be correct.
My favourite team name from Aussie sports btw (cuz I have a friend who is Australian and we’re both sports geeks :3 ) is Rabbitohs! xD I love it so much that when the Winnipeg team was deciding on the name recently (they ended up going back to Jets, which is what they should have done xD ) I suggested the Winnipeg Rabbitohs xD Or the Beavertohs!
Plymouth,
You’re assuming good faith here. I think a fair number of these guys are outraged that a guy was called out on his creepy behavior. Someone who genuinely cared about not being creepy would take this advice and mentally file it away for future reference. What (a lot of) these guys want is the ability to continue being creepy with plausible deniability.
Some tips on how not to be seen as creepy:
1. Pay attention to surroundings-if you are in a deserted parking lot and come up to a woman asking to go somewhere with her, chances are you will creep her out. If you are at a party where you ask her to sit in the backyard or other quiet space to talk, chances are very unlikely you will creep her out.
2. Pay attention to your own looks-if you have a five day old chin shadow, major circles under your eyes and look like you just buried a corpse, chances are you will creep her out. If you are neatly dressed, bathed and/or do not look like you just buried a corpse, chances are very unlikely you will creep her out.
3. Try to avoid looking like you just buried a corpse period. Oh and bathe regularly.
Green and Gold/Yellow can also make them Green Bay Packers! Or the Edmonton Eskimos :3
“Abuse and creepiness can happen to men too and by women and my reaction isn’t less if the genders are reversed >:\”
YES. My friend’s ex controlled his every move, and would twist every argument she created around to him. Although statistically physical abuse is mostly committed by men, I don’t think there is much of a difference in abuse in general. I have known many bad relationships, and gender makes no difference in cases of abuse.
I also dislike how men are supposed to ‘enjoy’ sexual abuse, like everyone talking about how hot female teachers who abuse their students are, and how the boys enjoy it and ‘become men’. Or I read about a case where some women in a bar pulled a guy’s pants off and exposed his genitals, and of course everyone laughed and acted like it wasn’t a big deal.
I’ve been an emotional abuser. I will admit this. After my boyfriend left me and told me he wanted nothing to do with me, I really craved attention from guys. I really hate the way I look, and this was a great way to decide no one else would ever like me. After I was raped I made friends with a very kind and wonderful guy who made me feel so much better, but I had no romantic feelings towards. I couldn’t tell him, my fear of him breaking off our friendship was too great. At least, it started out that way. I got so consoled by his compliments and gentleness that I pushed him for more. I’d ask him to walk me home every night, buy me drinks… I even relished his pain and enjoyed how sad he seemed when I slept with someone else, because this meant he wanted me so much. I can’t even think about it now without feeling sick. We are still good friends and I am incredibly grateful. I have apologised so many times and he has a lovely girlfriend and is really good friends with my boyfriend.
He is NOT a NiceGuyTM, by any stretch of the imagination. Although he liked me, he told me he ‘never thought he had a chance’ but still wanted us to be friends. His friendship was never a cover for his trying to get sex or romance. He genuinely cared about how I felt, and comforted me over other boyfriends without ever being bitter or resentful. I have had a lot of guys pretend to be friends with me and then get nasty when I don’t fuck them, but this guy was genuine. I used him and strung him along to keep him hurting because it made me feel good. It’s not alright and me being a woman and him a man makes no fucking difference.
Well TBF I dun think whether a guy looks neatly dressed or not necessarily says whether or not they’re dangerous (if this is about being afraid of potential danger)… :|
There is a team called the Matildas? Only in Australia which has men so manly they can be called Matilda and no one cares. No, wait, they are women…damn that would have been so awesome.
I should get some bacon and fry it up…yummmmm…
My brother went to Green Bay for work once, and they gave him a Packers t-shirt for a souvenir, he wears it all the time. I rang him when he was over there, and asked what’s is like – he said all he could see was snow, with lumps that were cars and buildings.
Oh you are right Ami because there have been plenty of well dressed peeps out there who have acted badly (get out of my head Ollie North) but I am talking about things that can make someone think “that guy is creepy” looking like you buried a corpse is definitely one of them.
There is a men’s team called the Swans – is that manly enough? (Actually, Manly are the Sea Eagles, I think)
I was thinking more about how having a very feminine name like the Matildas still did not make the males less than manly.
Ugh what a terribly unfunny jokester this guy is
I feel like I’ve just admitted to every MRA’s claim about women. I feel really gross.
@Magical Laura I’m glad that you realize what you did then was wrong and that he is okay and things are all right between you. I mean obv was wrong, but you recognize it and own up to it :] Ty for sharing that. :3 And yus, it doesn’t have to be physical abuse for it to be abuse, emotional abuse can be just as terrible… and manipulating ppl’s feelings and it’s def something ppl need to be aware of… and that it’s not this strictly gendered thing >:\
I’ve been emotionally abusive in the past too :( When I was in my incredibly depressed period and was so screwed up and in denial, I had a g/f that I was in retrospect trying to live through, and so I was v controlling about what she should wear, trying to isolate her and control her and etc… it fills me w/ a lot of shame… and I am so apologetic for it.. she was abusive to me too on the non “masculine” thoughts and feelings and etc, but that doesn’t excuse or diminish it it.. it was f-ed up :( .. eventually it ended and I hope so much she’s okay and everything.. I feel guilty knowing that at least I moved on and found who I am and happiness b/c sometimes I feel like I don’t deserve it.. and I deserve everything that’s happened to me… :(
i know that doesn’t rly actually fit the subject but I felt I wanted to say it too :(
@Magical Laura you did not.. you spoke for you.. *hugs* and you also recognize what you did was wrong.. you learned…. their stereotype of us is we can’t ever learn… *hugs again* don’t feel gross… you know what you did was wrong and you even admitted here and used yourself as an example… that is NOT what their stereotype does…
PosterLiz –
4. Try to negotiate sex or dates, not contrive them. Your proposition should be just that, a proposition, not the end of a grand plot to make things go your way. If your plan includes “first, I’ll make it hard for her to say no,” your plan is creepy.
Holly-yeppers…and it is Beth not Liz for my diminutive :)
Actually now that you make me think of it-is there any other women out there with tips to avoid making someone creepy?
I mean “making someone feel you are creepy”
Thankyou Ami, your post made me feel so much better. I’m glad you’re happy now, you totally deserve it :) *hug* I’ve been kindof nervous whenever NiceGuyTM is brought up, because I feel like a hypocrite for complaining about it when I exploited a guy myself, but I agree the important thing is to learn and I can safely say I won’t treat anyone like that again.
5. Do not tell somebody that you want to “drink” them… and if the person is trans do not follow it up with “when you’re thirsty, you don’t care about the brand of water you’re drinking”.
5. If a woman specifically says she does not like being hit on, and you hit on her anyway, that will most likely appear to be creepy.
(This is beginning to sound like that old Jeff Foxworthy routine.)
Oh my…that is the most hideous pick up line I have ever heard!
7. if the person is trans or disabled or etc… do not act like they should be grateful you like them at all and that’s enuf of a reason for sex.
8. again if the person is not cis straight white abled etc… don’t say “I’ve never had sex w/ a…” [black person, trans person, disabled person, etc] “before!” like in general… treat ppl as ppl you want to ask out, or even pick up… not as some sort of food you’ve never sampled >_<;;
@Magical Laura, worst part is he did what Holly said not to, he stood with his feet under the wheels of my car forcing me to be unable to pull out of the parking spot without hurting him… so I was stuck there w/ him >:O
@Magical Laura *hugs back* ty… I wanted you to know you’re not alone, but I’m also.. rly ashamed… and I guess revealing I’m not the great person ppl think I am :(
Plymouth: I was up late when I posted those comments, so that might account for some of how they came across, but part of it also was, subtlety would be lost on certain people here so I had to state certain things without nuance and without room for negotiation to get through to them.
For instance, the reality of male privilege and the need for men to always be ready to check it if asked to, the reality that not all men are rapists but all men are Schrodingers Rapists, the good possibility that it’s the Entitled Nice Guys that are pushing this because they’re all a bunch of nerds who believe in the Geek Fallacies which is why they don’t think they should ever have to change their behavior at the sayso of others, and most importantly, the fact that a woman’s safety is everything.
Now, here’s a more nuanced question:
One thing I notice is that a woman might call a man creepy, he does reform, and she accepts him, all the while restating that she did feel creeped by his behavior when they first met.
Would a man feel justified, because of his misapprehension that “you’re creepy” means “you might be a predator,” in just ignoring that woman altogether, even if she later comes to find him not creepy and wanting to be friends? Because in his mind, she basically called him a Schrodinger’s Rapist outright.
bah, my kingdom for an edit button.
That should read “Would a man be justified” not “Would a man feel justified,” because naturally he is feeling that if it comes to that.
Chuck from Gucci Little Piggy sent me this email. My reply is below.
I find your basic argument here a bit bizarre; either that or I’m misinterpreting what you wrote in your first paragraph.
If someone you’d never spoken to before, male or female, were to approach you in an elevator at 4 AM and invite you to his/her room you wouldn’t find this weird or creepy? I would.
The idea that if a woman is in public it’s automatically appropriate to hit on her is a bit silly, and I rather doubt you actually believe that. (Either that or you haven’t thought it through.)
Would you hit on a woman at a funeral? In an Emergency room waiting to hear on the condition of a friend who’s been shot? Would you hit on a real estate agent showing a couple a house? A woman rushing to catch an airplane? A woman alone on a subway platform at 3 am? Alone at a highway rest stop at 3 am? Would you walk up to a woman in any of these situations and say “hey, I think you’re neat. Do you want to come to my room?”
Unless I’ve misjudged you entirely, I’m guessing the answer is no. Why? Because you realize it would be creepy. Watson is saying, dudes, it’s creepy if you do that in an elevator at 4 am also.
The entire world is not some big PUA training facility.
The “grey areas” in your second paragraph, on the other hand, seem like perfectly appropriate topics of discussion. Those are the same sorts of “grey areas” I’m talking about above. Is your criticism of Watson that she didn’t specify that in SOME circumstances there’s nothing wrong with a guy hitting on a woman in public but that in other circumstances there is? Because I would think that most people would recognize this; the issue would be as to where to draw the line. I’d say it’s probably good to draw the line at behavior most women would regard as “creepy.”
Laura, to my mind the two crucial things that make a NiceGuyTM are 1) entitlement (she has to notice that I’m so nice… she owes me for being so nice, damn it) and 2) dishonesty. It sounds like you were upfront about the situation with this man, and so was he.
(Besides, if you’d really followed the MRA script, you would’ve married the nice guy for the security, and then had an affair with a biker, or a whole biker gang, or whatever. :) )
@PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
“Some tips on how not to be seen as creepy:
1. Pay attention to surroundings-if you are in a deserted parking lot and come up to a woman asking to go somewhere with her, chances are you will creep her out. If you are at a party where you ask her to sit in the backyard or other quiet space to talk, chances are very unlikely you will creep her out.
2. Pay attention to your own looks-if you have a five day old chin shadow, major circles under your eyes and look like you just buried a corpse, chances are you will creep her out. If you are neatly dressed, bathed and/or do not look like you just buried a corpse, chances are very unlikely you will creep her out.
3. Try to avoid looking like you just buried a corpse period. Oh and bathe regularly.”
Some tips for women on etiquette, common sense and good manners:
1. If a man walks up to you in a deserted parking lot, it’s mostly likely he needs direction or some other assistance, or he just might like to talk to you. DO NOT act like he is a creep or a criminal. DO NOT treat him like a second class citizen. DO NOT roll your eyes, condesend or act aloof in any manner. DO NOT dramatize with your friends about the creep who approached you. You are not a superior being.
2. If a man approaches you and he’s filthy and dirty and he looks like he just buried a corpse, this is because men do virtually all the dirty, dangerous manual labor. He may in fact have just buried a corpse. When he approaches dirty he does so because you are there now when he got off work. DO NOT look down on him because your clothes are clean and he is dirty. DO NOT roll your eyes at him for approaching while dirty. DO NOT act like he is beneath you because of his attire. You are not a superior being.
3. DO NOT act as if women are cleaner than men. DO NOT manipulate every situation to make men out as either abusive/inferior, or women as victims/superior. In other words, break the cycle of misandric indoctrination.
casey, I know your question is addressed to Plymouth, but I’m confused about what it is you’re driving at, and I’m probably not the only one.
Subtlety is lost on them but so are clue-by-fours :p
@caseymordred
I’d say he would be justified, simply because nobody is morally obligated to be friends with someone they don’t want to be friends with. His misapprehension is beside the point.
If a man has, in fact, just finished burying a corpse, I think it would be nicest for both of us if he took a quick shower and put on a clean t-shirt before anyone tried to start anything romantic.
I sure as hell don’t go out trying to pick up dudes when I’m in my stinky/bloody scrubs from the ER. (lol women don’t do dirty work lol)
Fair enough, I thought it might be, to be honest. I’ll illustrate it further.
Guy walks up to a woman, and either through awkwardness or calculation comes across as creepy in his talking to her. Perhaps not up to the point of propositioning yet but it seems a safe assumption that he might.
Girl gets up the nerve to be direct instead of subtle with the Guy and tells him outright that he is being creepy and that he is making her uncomfortable.
Guy acknowledges her feelings and backs off, openly acknowledging her right to feel that way, and apologizing for it. In his mind, however, she may has well have started shouting “rape.”
Fast forward a little bit.
Either through taking the hint and modifying his behavior, or simply not being inclined to act that way anymore, Guy is no longer being creepy and in fact is becoming more socially acceptable because he knows how to behave properly.
Girl takes notice of this and is happy that he seems to have taken the hint, and tries to start up a conversation with him, emphasizing that he was once creepy but now he’s done so well in learning how to not be, and that maybe she will now consider the possibility of being more friendly with him.
Guy still feels unkindly disposed towards her because even though she now accepts him, he feels that the woman’s comfort level was too low and that he was being accused of creepiness just because he was a little awkward. In his mind, she’s some sort of paranoid radfem who thinks that all men are rapists.
Would he be justified in brushing her off, or is he obligated to fully accept the woman’s judgement and not dismiss her as a future friend simply on that basis? Or would he be okay with feeling the woman was too “paranoid” and essentially calling him a Schrodinger’s Rapist?
PosterBETH – Duly noted about your name. :)
Caseymordred – Nobody’s obligated to be friends with someone. If he wants to brush her off, if he still doesn’t feel warm toward her, there’s no ethical obligation. He shouldn’t hold a grudge or treat her badly, but if he just doesn’t want to be friends, that’s his right.
@Holly Pervocracy, but a man wouldn’t look down on you for talking to him while wearing dirty scrubs. Extend that same courtesy to men.
Holly Pervocracy, but a man wouldn’t look down on you for talking to him while wearing dirty scrubs. Extend that same courtesy to men.
The fucking hell he wouldn’t. I’ve had men look down on me for wearing clean clothes that were insufficiently womanly/revealing/attractive.
But there’s two different kinds of filthy clothes, and you can tell the difference. (Also, a person is likely to mention it if they’re dirty from work.) Clothes that are dirty from work don’t look the same as clothes that are dirty from the hygiene-free lifestyle.
Are men prone to this hygiene-free lifestyle you speak of?
Holly: Thank you for answering.
However, I do not think it is as simple as that. Even if all he does is simply refuse to accept friendship, it is still basically saying “I don’t acknowledge your right to scrutinize me as being a Schrodingers Rapist, I would be your friend otherwise, but because you are this prone to scrutiny you are being paranoid and I don’t accept that, regardless of how unsafe women feel around strange men.”
On the other hand, others might argue “Just as a man should be ready to modify his behavior to make women more comfortable, a woman should realize that a man who is not trying to be creepy will feel like he is being treated as a rapist if she does so, so she should not be so inclined.”
I disagree of course, but I think it would make an interesting discussion of counterpoints.
Some men are and some women are.
That’s the case with just about any trait, people being people.
Perhaps Holly Pervocracy, as you continually told MRAL, it wasn’t your cloths it was your attitude that men sensed.
I’m thinking that the world would be a lot better place if everyone understood that there is not a direct equivalence between “I want to talk to you” and “I get to talk to you”.
It’s a trickier question when you put it that way, but I’d stick with my earlier opinion. I’ve received badly-worded good advice from people, and even if I decided to take their advice their words still rankled, because I was never really sure if they thought they were being helpful or insulting.
Sometimes when you get off on the wrong foot with someone, it’s better to just cut your losses and move on.
Caseymordred – Although I’d prefer that men understand women’s caution around them, I think that “not being friends” is the default situation for any two people, and requires no justification.
I agree completely, Holly. Not all men are rapists, but all men are Schrodinger’s Rapists, and they need to be made to understand that.
Perhaps Holly Pervocracy, as you continually told MRAL, it wasn’t your cloths it was your attitude that men sensed.
Actually, that’s sort of true. I don’t tend to go around with an attitude of wanting to please men or be stereotypically feminine, and I think that does project. Some guys want a feminine girl to please them, and are annoyed that’s not me.
However, I’m not actively hostile. “Not wanting to please” is very different from “wanting to displease.”
Anyway, when I’ve worn skimpy girly stuff (man, it’s been a while… current boyfriend likes butch and I am just fine with that), somehow a lot more guys are magically able to overlook my “attitude.”
4. And by all means, whatever you do, NEVER TRUST YOUR OWN INSTINCTS. Yes, he may be a rapist, but you wouldn’t want to hurt guy’s feeling over a little thing like that, would you? It’s better that 100 women get raped than one man get his feelings hurt.
In the scenario of Schrodinger’s Rapists, he is a rapist. The guilt of being a rapist has already been determined. Otherwise, how can it be called Schrodinger’s Rapists?
If it was call Schrodinger’s Possible Rapists there might be doubt as to the guilt of the charge. That isn’t the case. There is a rapist in the box.
9) Listen to what women* say. If a woman tells you she’s not interested, even if she says it in a pretty polite way — or if she says that she’s tired, or doesn’t like to be hit on, or just got out of a difficult relationship, or isn’t dating, or isn’t attracted to people of your sex, or is in a relationship, or doesn’t think it’s going to work out, or needs some space, don’t make her tell you twice. Certainly don’t make her say it three times. Respect what she’s telling you. It’s likely not personal.
*This applies to women who don’t want to be creepy also.
Well NWO, looks like it’s your turn in the barrel. :D
Let’s face it buddy, anything less than “women have to accept all uncouth behavior that isn’t clearly threatening” will be unacceptable to you guys.
* I meant to say that all of the above advice applies to people of any sex, talking to people of any sex.
If it was call Schrodinger’s Possible Rapists there might be doubt as to the guilt of the charge. That isn’t the case. There is a rapist in the box.
In your eagerness to disagree with anything a woman says, even if she says “I like men” or “I like snowcones,” you’ve forgotten that the original thought experiment was not called Schrodinger’s Possible Cat.
…although, frankly, I kind of like the sound of that.
“Perhaps Holly Pervocracy, as you continually told MRAL, it wasn’t your cloths”
I’m picturing Holly literally wrapped in cloths. Well no wonder!
I have to admit, I’m kind of vaguely dissatisfied a lot of the time with how the Schroedinger’s Rapist concept is explained. It does not help that some folks apparently read it as “big and scary word in front of ‘rapist'”, cue howling about how they are not a rapist, are not are not ARE NOT!
Some of this, of course, is less than honest.
But there’s something about the original article and some of the ways that people relate the concepts therein that ties back to the common vocabulary and understood body of knowledge of feminsts rather than the general population, I think, which is kind of unfortunate if the person you are attempting to explain the thing to is resolutely a member of the general population.
Posted again for emphasis.
NWO, I know you don’t have sound on your computer, which is too bad because I’d “love” to hear your opinion on that little exchange.