Two atheists get in an elevator
So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:
Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?
Then Richard Dawkins says,
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Richard
In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:
Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.
Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?
In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)
The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing. Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.
The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were. Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):
So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’
Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.
That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:
What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?
Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies. She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.
Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.
Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:
I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”
In a followup post, she noted:
When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.
And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.
Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.
They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.
And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:
I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.
She didn’t shut up.
So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.
Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc – Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.
Posted on July 6, 2011, in creepy, feminism, hypocrisy, misogyny, oppressed men, patriarchy, rape, reactionary bullshit, sexual harassment, threats. Bookmark the permalink. 1,701 Comments.
Also, Unreal Man said: “Perhaps some people might want to learn that you can reject an offer without the other person being deemed as creepy. ”
I think several of us have given testimony of such. The VAST VAST MAJORITY of offers I have turned down were NOT CREEPY. Some of them are people I am still friends with YEARS later. The common denominator to all of them is that they did it in a non-pushy non-manipulative way that made it clear a “no” would be accepted and taken at face value.
SLAVE
Go see a mental health professional. Run don’t walk. Even if you are here just to be a troll and really don’t agree with your own statements you need help. There is nothing in what you post here right now that leaves me with any hope for your future unless you get help.
If you are sincere in your posting here then you are reminding me of my brothers mind patterns a little bit too much. You need to seek help.
Do you have family that knows what’s going on with you?
Advice = Dictation. Got it. New World Dictionary. Seriously, if Rebecca is now Supreme Dictator of All Men, why are so many of them not listening to her?
Kave… Good answer. Go to the previous page, see the comments I quoted, If those comments were written. Would that be misogyny? Yet it isn’t misandry? You’re a hypocrite. As is your entire movement.
@Ion:
“You know what’s funny? You try to come off as wise and mature, but in fact, I actually used to think like you when I was younger and stupider. I bought into all the “men are evil, men are natural rapists” crap spouted by feminist circles and their neutered mangina allies.”
You bought into that? What a dumbass you were. Nobody’s a “natural rapist”, that’s evo-psych garbage. All I’ve ever heard is that men are the vast majority of perpetrators when it comes to rape. Only morons and people making excuses fall back on this “natural” argument. Men aren’t naturally rapists any more than they’re naturally violent, naturally stupid, naturally unemotional or naturally predisposed to any behavior. Not sure who you were listening to, but I don’t see that coming from any feminists except maybe the radfems and I don’t pay attention to them. That crap you’re talking about? Sounds like the standard emotionalist argument against feminism that’s long on visceral grab and short on facts.
“I was concerned about not coming off as threatening or creepy. I was courteous and kind and polite, I respected women, but I forgot to respect myself. And while the bad boys, playa gangstas, and abusive douchebags were strutting around town with an “I take what I want” attitude and a new girl on their arm every week, I was hearing “Wow, you’re a great guy, but I like you as a friend. Well, see you later, gotta go have sex with the jerk boyfriend I’ve been complaining to you about!””
What a touching story. And one I’ve never, ever heard before from anybody like you, for reals.
Okay that’s a lie. I heart this bullshit from you lot all the time. “Waaaaaah, the women I want won’t just fall into my lap, they just go with abusive guys so they’re obviously stupid but I WANT THEM ANYWAY!! I’m gonna stand up for myself and that means I need to put them and other women who don’t do what I want down all the time! I don’t need to be polite, I need to be more like the guys I’m trash talking!”.
And you probably still wonder why I call you a whiner.
Oh but thank you very much for assuring me that you have a fulfilling life with lots of reliable friends (half of whom are women, naturally). I was really worried about that for a while.
Okay lying again. Honestly could care less. Not really moved by you baring your tragic mangina past for us, since it’s just a bunch of Nice Guy whining about how the world owes you whatever women you want and you’re going to be a jerk now because jerks get women. Still amused by you continuing to call me neutered though, it’s cute how you’re just going to stick with that like it actually has a hope of working. :)
Wait did he just combine ALL of our quotes into one piece as if we were all one single person? o_O (also I thought he wasn’t reading me if I used smileys nemore xD what’s the next NWO ultimatum? xD)
What I find interesting is that she didn’t say HE was creepy, or that he gave creepy vibes, or that all men are creepy. She said that the particular situation, it being 4am, her having given a talk on the treatment of women, him doing it in an enclosed space… was creepy. o_O And I think we all know that by creepy she means “it made me uncomfortable” and it’s not so vague that you have no idea what she means… she means “this situation made me uncomfortable”…
So she means a specific situation. o_O Not “guys don’t be creepy”. Now THAT would be vague. xD If you want to know what women think, that is one woman (and others agreeing with her) telling you. How useful is that? I have no idea xD Cuz lots of women would also not think that’s creepy… just like if you approached me w/ a wrestling catchphrase to pick me up (it’s on youtube) it’d prolly work… but it prolly wouldn’t work on others xD
I was thinking tho… to clarify things :3
What if the same thing happened, and the next day she was w/ a friend at a coffee shop and complaining about this situation, same thing she said in the video, and that the situation was creepy, etc etc…
if you overheard it, would you turn around and tell her she’s wrong to think that he (or his actions) were creepy?
What if she had been overheard by somebody and then somebody posted it online that Skepchick thought it was rly creepy? Would the reaction be the same?
Cuz the argument going on HERE seems to be that her thinking that it was creepy was WRONG, that it’s unfair that men do things and some women may be thinking that it’s creepy, and they should not.
Is that it? o_O Or is it not it? Ultimately, is it about what she THOUGHT? o_O
Plymouth, don’t talk to me unless I give you permission. It makes me uncomfortable. I guess you think just because your a woman you’re entitled to my time and attention.
Oh thats right. If you as a woman say that to a man it has meaning and is gospel. If I say it to you I’m a misogynist.
Misandry much?
I thought we were one person like those toys that have the disparate parts that snap together.
You as a woman may dictate any action a man takes as something a man shouldn’t do because it makes you uncomfortable.
You used 2 different words o_O
dictate and shouldn’t…
you mean “cannot”
If we’re dictating then it means we want to make it something men CANNOT do…
Or you mean “You as a woman may suggest any action a man takes as something a man shouldn’t do because it makes you uncomfortable.” in which case the true is for the reverse… you have suggested all sorts of things you believe women shouldn’t do… and ppl have suggested things to you that you shouldn’t do…. what real consequences or actions from these suggestions were enforced upon you that weren’t on us and SHOULD be on us? :]
NWOslave – You can’t tell Plymouth not to talk to you.
However, you can tell Plymouth “if you talk to me, that makes me uncomfortable.” This might not be nice of you, but it’s not dictatorial or unjust–it’s just warning Plymouth that talking to you won’t get a positive reaction.
The difference is important.
NWOslave | July 7, 2011 at 3:39 pm
Plymouth, don’t talk to me unless I give you permission. It makes me uncomfortable. I guess you think just because your a woman you’re entitled to my time and attention.
If it makes you uncomfortable or creeps you out, then you are welcome to feel that way and even tell her. Whether she cares or not is up to her, unless she’s caused you physical harm or committed a crime…
Nobody has to follow Skepchick’s advice o_O She gave her opinion, Dawkins gave HIS opinion… neither has the power to enforce it on the other o_O both can be (and are) being criticized..
Hey, why don’t all of you take the comments posted and do that reverse gender thing from the other thread. If it looks like misogyny, that means your comments are misandric.
Ahh crap, I’d still be wrong. Cause everyone here in total agreement would say so.
Oh well, I’m a creep. Revel in your hatred. Misandry, love it, live it.
@Kave
My concern here is not that she is calling him a creep or not, but that countless people here are just agreeing and judging him a creep as if it’s some stone engraved fact.
So you say I’m “wrong”. What exactly am I wrong about?
NWOaf, if you truly felt that way here is the usual way to handle it:
“Plymouth, please do not talk to me any more as it makes me uncomfortable. Thank you.”
If Plymouth persisted despite this request:
“Plymouth, I said it made me uncomfortable, stop talking to me.”
If that does not get the point across:
“Plymouth, fuck off already.”
See the difference? In the first case, you have expressed your opinion in a way that is polite even if it is not very nice to hear. The second one is where Plymouth refused to accept your request and the third one is clearly showing that you are feeling threatened by this person and want to make it very clear.
@Holly exactly… like NWO told me if I don’t stop talking w/ smileys, (or before that don’t talk directly TO him) he won’t care about a thing I write xD It’s up to me to care whether that will change my behaviour. xD
If I tell him “NWO stop being dishonest here, or I won’t read what you say” it’s up to him to care too xD it’s not like as a woman I can FORCE him to do it w/ that sentence anymore than he could w/ his xD
Holly Pervocracy, shouldn’t you be moderating the naysayers on Ozzy’s family blog. I heard someone might have posted something that didn’t agree with her emminence. The patriarchy never sleeps, beware.
@unreal man they are judging that the actions of an unknown individual seem creepy to them… who is he? was his information posted? :o should anecdotal stories no longer be shared or reacted to online? o: There’s been a lot of stories posted here… and ppl saying “ew I’m so sorry for you, that guy sounds like an asshole!” is that also damaging to the unknown person?
If it makes you uncomfortable or creeps you out, then you are welcome to feel that way and even tell him. Whether he cares or not is up to him, unless he’s caused you physical harm or committed a crime…
Nobody has to follow Skepdude’s advice o_O He gave his opinion, Dawkins gave HER opinion… neither has the power to enforce it on the other o_O both can be (and are) being criticized..
There I regendered it… is that misogynist now since apparently originally it was misandrist? xD
@NWOslave
you’re wasting your time pointing out misandry to these feminists (even though I agree). Hell they probably don’t even realize the word feminism is sexist in itself.
PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth, I’m just trying to enlighten her on the proper way to act so that she’ll never make any man feel uncomfortable. I mean the commentor’s here clearly said they were trying to help men overcome thier social awkwardness. I thought I’d return the favor. Since you praise, well women/yourselves for “suggesting” how a man should act, you should praise me as well. Doncha think?
unreal_man, that blog post was amusing for its idiocy. Not only did he think Rebecca named Elevator Guy, he also apparently thinks the skeptic community needs a better female representative.
Singular.
TVTropes Smurfette anyone?
Wait did she just combine ALL of our quotes into one piece as if we were all one single person? o_O (also I thought she wasn’t reading me if I used smileys nemore xD what’s the next NWO ultimatum? xD)
What I find interesting is that he didn’t say SHE was creepy, or that she gave creepy vibes, or that all women are creepy. He said that the particular situation, it being 4am, him having given a talk on the treatment of men, her doing it in an enclosed space… was creepy. o_O And I think we all know that by creepy he means “it made me uncomfortable” and it’s not so vague that you have no idea what he means… he means “this situation made me uncomfortable”…
So he means a specific situation. o_O Not “girls don’t be creepy”. Now THAT would be vague. xD If you want to know what men think, that is one man (and others agreeing with him) telling you. How useful is that? I have no idea xD Cuz lots of men would also not think that’s creepy… just like if you approached me w/ a wrestling catchphrase to pick me up (it’s on youtube) it’d prolly work… but it prolly wouldn’t work on others xD
So… now that I reversed the genders.. what’s the vote? unfair? misogynistic? xD
Actually that was not the proper way to ask her to leave you alone-you know that and I know that and to say otherwise is being disingenuous and well, oafish.
Ms Watson was also use an example of what a guy should not do because it will help him avoid issues in the future just as I did when I pointed out how you were wrong and a proper way of doing it.
*signs NWOaf for a Miss Manners course at the local remedial school*
NWOslave | July 7, 2011 at 3:54 pm
PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth, I’m just trying to enlighten her on the proper way to act so that she’ll never make any man feel uncomfortable. I mean the commentor’s here clearly said they were trying to help men overcome thier social awkwardness. I thought I’d return the favor. Since you praise, well women/yourselves for “suggesting” how a man should act, you should praise me as well. Doncha think?
I think it’s more that some ppl agree w/ her advice (as you notice some ppl haven’t said a word about how they think of her advice xD )… not that “OMG YOU GAVE ADVICE AS A GIRL YOU ARE CORRECT” xD
If she suggested that men castrate themselves, do you believe we’d be “praising” her? o_O
Like do you think this is about the specific situation, and her specific thoughts and statements? Or do you believe she could have said anything and we’d all be like “fuck, yeah!” o:
Cuz if it’s the latter, then it’s prolly a different conversation/discussion to have… right now ppl are speaking of specifics :]
You know what’s funny? You try to come off as wise and mature, but in fact, I actually used to think like you when I was younger and stupider. I bought into all the “women are evil, women are natural rapists” crap spouted by masculist circles and their neutered mangina allies. I was concerned about not coming off as threatening or creepy. I was courteous and kind and polite, I respected men, but I forgot to respect myself. And while the bad girls, playa gangstas, and abusive douchebags were strutting around town with an “I take what I want” attitude and a new boy on their arm every week, I was hearing “Wow, you’re a great gal, but I like you as a friend. Well, see you later, gotta go have sex with the jerk girlfriend I’ve been complaining to you about!”
So you’re right about the chest-puffing part, but not so much about the being afraid. I’m less afraid now than I ever was. I put myself first. I don’t apologize for being a woman. It took me a while to wise up, but I did. And let me tell you, things are better than ever. I got my first boyfriend after acting ‘inappropriate’ and going for a kiss the night we first met. A day later, he was the one would wouldn’t leave me alone. So much for “men give in because of social pressures”, I guess. Second boy, in college, I acted like a five-year old jerk. Totally out of character, even I was ashamed of my behaviour. Afterwards, he was calling me to hang out. Sometime later, I met someone I really liked. Like an idiot, I decided to play it cool, be nice, be polite, take things slowly. Guess what? Zero interest. Learned my lesson then and haven’t looked back. As for “friends who will abandon me”… I don’t know what the people are like where you live, but the gals I know just don’t fit your simplistic caricature. Also, currently half my friends are male. Weird, huh. But uh, keep telling yourself you’re so much better for being a neutered wimp. I’ll be busy having fun in the real world meanwhile.
@ Ami
Like I said, calling guys creepy in this way is abuse of power.
You see, there are many guys out there, perhaps the majority, who really want to get it right but are unsure of what that entails. They pay attention to discussions where women say what is acceptable and what not. They try to learn and follow the rules. Only the problem is, “creepy” doesn’t teach them anything at all. Anyone can call any behavior creepy (just look at some of the other comments here). The fact that the elevator guy was polite didn’t seem to save him. The fact that he didn’t push it was also no use.
So what message does this creep-o-meter send to such guys who are trying? Very simple, that whatever you do, somebody is going to call you a creep and a ton of others will agree. This creates hurt and resentment. Also being labeled creepy can very quickly spiral out of control and turn into incriminating rumors.
Many guys will deal with that by giving up and not caring at all what women feel and do whatever they want. Kind of like “ok, so you think I’m creepy, well just you wait…”
Somehow I don’t think that was the idea of all this was it?!
So the whole thing boils, yet again, down to deciding which of the two you want: 1) make things better or 2) make yourself feel better. The vast majority of feminists here in this thread clearly want the latter.
NWO, Elizabeth and others have said the same thing to me that you have (even before you did) about the way I write and my smileys and if I kept it up nobody would read a thing I said…
which is v similar “if you do this you will be creepy” xD
I didn’t care (and I’m sure other men won’t about her advice…)
other ppl didn’t think it was important to them (and I’m sure other women are fine w/ elevator hit ons)
in both ways, nothing was “enforced” o_O Elizabeth, being a woman, did not have any more ways to force me to do what she wanted, than you did. :] She also gave me advice…
just as you’re giving Plymouth…
as I recall, neither of you were jumped upon for your advice to me, despite the difference in genders xD
what are the consequences of ppl not following Skepchick’s advice? Skepchick will reject them if they ask her to their room.
what are the consequences of me not following you and others advice? They will not respond/read my stuff. (my blog presence is not what it COULD be if I wrote normally for instance) xD
but it’s up to me whether I care what ppl think, or how to act :]
NWO – I’m not a woman, I’m a girl.
@unreal Anyone can call any behavior creepy (just look at some of the other comments here). The fact that the elevator guy was polite didn’t seem to save him. The fact that he didn’t push it was also no use.
Except her use of the word “creepy” focused on the specific situation, (4am, in enclosed space). o_O
But that’s neither here nor there. :]
So what do you believe the solution is? What do you believe she should have done or said or thought? If you were her and you wanted to express the same thoughts, what word would you have used? :] What do you believe we should do about this? (I won’t derail this into other loaded words or a discussion of the word “slut” or nething, I want to hear what you have to say :] )
Also, I’m not a feminist. I just think they have some good ideas.
If she thought that that specific behaviour in that situation was creepy, but creepy has different connotations, would it have helped if she said “it makes me uncomfortable, and men if you do not want to make women uncomfortable, do not do this in an enclosed space at night?” Or do you think the problem is she felt uncomfortable at all? o:
How should women modify our behaviour to not make men uncomfortable and scared? :]
@unreal man
Dude, you’re complaining to women who’ve been called bitches for not using the right tone that creepy is such a demeaning and hurtful term. Talk about privilege.
@Plymouth I vacillate between what to call myself all the time. xD I think I’ll ultimate settle on “Ami” :3
All women should wish to avoid making men uncomfortable. Therefore, no women should do what elevator girl did.
“Because just because you don’t believe in God doesn’t mean that you don’t think that you’re entitlted to man’s time, attention, and bodies.”
“I would not be because I would be too busy laughing at her but that is my reaction and I am not Ms Watson.”
What the fuck is it with women who think men automatically owe them every courtesy in every possible situation? What a bunch of whiny, entitled babies.
The poor dear, her life must be fucking ruined. How dare he talk about her at all on his own blog, the nerve.
Just a couple of reversed comments.
Misandry is your privilege, and you love it.
*ultimately xD
@Amnesia yeah presumably if he understands that then there are other concepts he could get and support when it comes to women, but this isn’t about women for him atm, so I want to give him respect to articulate his solutions and views :]
@Ami
Kay. I’ll sit back and let you work your magic. Sorry, magyc.
I’m trying to calm things down, cut thru the rhetoric (even what actually HAPPENED seemed to have been lost in the whole argument xD )… seems to be working :3
Unreal man, As a man>
I’m in an elevator at 4 in the morning with another guy. I don’t know who this guy is and he asks me (or you) to come for coffee in his hotel room. Creepy.
I’ve been come onto by men many times in my life. Although I’m getting broader now I’m tall and slim with same length somewhat long hair and generally look like a generic bassist.
I can’t say it’s never offended me. When the guy put his hand on my leg when I was hitch-hiking (back when people did that) very creepy but generally not at all
The boy telling me he loves my hello kitty purse while my wife is in the ladies room, not at all creepy in fact the three of us ended up hanging out for awhile. I would however feel uncomfortable in the above situation.
I have no doubt that you would have felt creepy in many situations if the shoe was on the other foot.
One of the reasons I’m an atheist is because I dislike the way the female sex is looked down on in most modern religions. To see so many anti-feminist/misogynist atheists is appalling. Being so hateful against girls and women is anything *but* rational. In religion, there may be some ideas pushed into people’s minds about superiority and inferiority based on sex, but to see supposedly “rational” people embrace misogynistic beliefs perpetuated by society makes me feel even less safe in this world. Ever since being aware of the MRA/anti-feminist communities, I feel like even more men are potential misogynists. Hell, most of my friends are men, and I really hope none of them secretly resents me.
I used to really like Richard Dawkins. Assuming that the one mentioned is the real one, then I don’t want to read his writings anymore. I’d rather associate myself with rational, not sexist, atheists.
I honestly, in real life, do strive to make other people feel comfortable most of the time. I give them the benefit of the doubt as much as I can (said elsethread I don’t actually subscribe to the “Shroedingers Rapist” concept. I kinda get why it exists but it doesn’t reflect my actual life.). When people ask me out and I’m not interested I try to say “no” in a nice way. Sometimes I’m sure I fail. This isn’t great but life goes on. On another type of rejection, one time I broke up with a boy over instant messenger. I was young and stupid and I’m sure I made him feel like crap. Later people told me it was a rude and stupid thing to do. I didn’t argue with them about how pure my intentions were – I resolved to not do it again because they were right. Years later we managed to become friends again and I apologized for it. We’re still friends.
@ Ami
Like I told somebody else here. It’s not so much her opinion that’s the problem but all of those people calling this guy a creep even if they weren’t there and don’t know him. Try just saying “I would never accept an offer in situation xyz”. That way you’re making it about you and your beliefs rather than about judging and condemning from a safe distance.
@ Amnesia
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Or are you out for vengeance?
So what does everyone think about the very few comments where I reversed the genders. Are the now mock-worthy misogynist comments?
Misandry allows you to turn anything a man does into a womans victimizastion, all while the while remaining aloof to any criticism.
Otherwise, you’d have called out the misandry of those statements as unacceptable. So the question is why didn’t you? Because women can only be victims. And where there’s a victim there’s an oppressor. I wonder who that is?
SLAVE needs to see someone about his mental health. That’s all I will say about him.
My brother has schizophrenia:
a long-term mental disorder of a type involving a breakdown in the relation between thought, emotion, and behavior, leading to faulty perception, inappropriate actions and feelings, withdrawal from reality and personal relationships into fantasy and delusion, and a sense of mental fragmentation.
If he wasn’t in care I would swear Slave was him.
Get help.
I think her point is that, as you said, it’s “two wrongs”, and reminding you that that’s also w/ the dynamics that you say :] I dun think she’s saying “therefore this would be ok” … but I can see why you would read it as “what about the womenz?” which is why I haven’t said nething… but I think the point/hope is that you would understand the same issues and be willing to listen the same way for women and “slut” “bitch” “ho” and issues about controlling our behaviour and etc as well :]
Did you post that or email that to her or some of her supporters btw? Maybe fleshed out.. if you said it in the way you just said it here, i think it would be listened to or spark a discussion/debate about it :]
Unreal man
How do you feel about people calling a woman a slut when they don’t know her?
No.
Even when you make them about women, they’re still only about a specific type of woman; not women in general.
@Plymouth… ” said elsethread I don’t actually subscribe to the “Shroedingers Rapist” concept. I kinda get why it exists but it doesn’t reflect my actual life.)”
Well let me clarify it for ya.
In Shroedingers Cat, it’s, is the cat dead or alive.
In Shroedingers Rapist, its, is the rapist dead or alive. The rapist is a gimmie, hence the term “rapist”, it’s just if HE is dead or alive.
I was young and stupid and I’m sure I made him feel like crap. Later people told me it was a rude and stupid thing to do. I didn’t argue with them about how pure my intentions were – I resolved to not do it again because they were right. Years later we managed to become friends again and I apologized for it. We’re still friends.
*repoints to Plymouth (and her awesomeness) cuz it is something great she said* :]
also I am always impressed by your introspectiveness :]
Kave, yes we already got that. health professional. It’s funny. And a fine contribution as well.
@KristinMH
I hate snocones too! I hate chewing on ice, and snocones are just ice soaked in a melted popsicle. Yuck.
Please don’t call them snocones. The correct usage is snowcones or snow cones. Omitting the “w” is wrong and definitely pejorative. There is no reason for this, but it’s true.
Good gravy the mutual admiration party has begun.
You’re awesome Plymouth.
@Spearhafoc exactly, ppl are talking about a v specific situation here… :]
@Unreal man also ty for offering what you believe ppl should have said :)
NWO, you’re awsome! {hugs}
Yeah he’s so not not reading me xD
apparently I’m not allowed to like my friends just cuz NWO doesn’t like them xD
YOU SUCK SPEARHAFOC!
see see i said NWO didn’t ALLOW me to do things! cuz he’s a MAN! xD
of course what I meant (before he gets upset) is that I find it hilarious that he gets upset b/c I like my friends xD
In Shroedingers Rapist, its, is the rapist dead or alive. The rapist is a gimmie, hence the term “rapist”, it’s just if HE is dead or alive.
The point of “Schrödinger’s Rapist” is “any man could be a rapist.”
The point is not “every man could be a rapist.”
The point is that you may be a lovely person, someone who would totally respect my boundaries and is merely expressing polite friendship–but I can’t know that. I can’t read your mind and see the good inside. I have to put my own safety first.
And therefore we should accuse them of rape, or shoot them as a potential rapist right Holly? >:O
@ Kave
“How do you feel about people calling a woman a slut when they don’t know her?”
I don’t know what this has to do with the issue we’re talking about but here’s my answer:
I don’t think I’ve ever called anyone a slut in my life before. Perhaps because I have no problem with women sleeping around and perhaps because I don’t understand any other meaning behind it.
No Holly Pervocracy, “Schrödinger’s Rapist”
The rapist part is already stated as a fact. Otherwise it would be accused rapist.
Call it for what it is.
Ami, I waiting for you to call out all those comments I regendered. Because you care, right?
Just for the hell of it I regendered Kave’s comment:
“Unreal woman, As a woman>
“I’m in an elevator at 4 in the morning with another gal. I don’t know who this gal is and she asks me (or you) to come for coffee in her hotel room. Creepy.
“I’ve been come onto by women many times in my life. Although I’m getting broader now I’m tall and slim with same length somewhat long hair and generally look like a generic bassist.
“I can’t say it’s never offended me. When the gal put her hand on my leg when I was hitch-hiking (back when people did that) very creepy but generally not at all
“The girl telling me she loves my hello kitty purse while my husband is in the lords room, not at all creepy in fact the three of us ended up hanging out for awhile. I would however feel uncomfortable in the above situation.”
Then Arielle’s:
“One of the reasons I’m an atheist is because I dislike the way the male sex is looked down on in most modern religions. To see so many anti-masculist/misandrist atheists is appalling. Being so hateful against boys and men is anything *but* rational. In religion, there may be some ideas pushed into people’s minds about superiority and inferiority based on sex, but to see supposedly “rational” people embrace misandristic beliefs perpetuated by society makes me feel even less safe in this world. Ever since being aware of the MRA/anti-masculist communities, I feel like even more women are potential misandrists. Hell, most of my friends are women, and I really hope none of them secretly resents me.
“I used to really like Rita Dawkins. Assuming that the one mentioned is the real one, then I don’t want to read her writings anymore. I’d rather associate myself with rational, not sexist, atheists.”
Hmm. Now I’ve made you sound like an MRA. XD
Ami – I think NWOs point of view more or less comes down to “if we aren’t killing women we’ll be killing men.”
Points on the scale of gender relations between “kill ‘em all” and “kill ‘em all” confuse and frighten him.
You can’t really regender words like “creepy” or “slut”. They are so gendered in their use that it doesn’t really work. I think NWOslave meant other comments.
How about you Holly Pervocracy
Wanna call out those posts from commentors on this article as being misandric. or can’t ya do it.
NWO – Um, I think it’s misandric to say “I hate men,” or “men are all [bad thing].” It’s also covertly misandric to say “men are all [good thing].”
Admittedly there’s 900+ comments, but I haven’t seen any statements synonymous with this on the thread.
NWOSlave: I regendered the source:
“‘So I walk to the elevator, and a woman got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Donna’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’
“‘Um, just a word to wise here, gals, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single man, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when women sexualize me in that manner.’
“That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most gals would be well aware that accosting a man you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on female sexuality and women in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:
“‘What effect do you think it has on women to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?’
“Never mind that he didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did he even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of men’s rights in Islamist theocracies. He merely suggested that gals might want to think twice before hitting on men who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all women creepy.”
Which comments? Can you regender the whole thing (in context) without just lines? o_O
As Spearhafoc pointed out.. the context is a v specific situation. xD
She already answered that, you dolt!
Neither she nor I have a problem with those statements, regendered or otherwise.
Here Holly I’ll recopy them, I think it’s just the first page. I’ve regendered them. Whaddya think.
All women should wish to avoid making men uncomfortable. Therefore, no women should do what elevator girl did.
“Because just because you don’t believe in God doesn’t mean that you don’t think that you’re entitlted to man’s time, attention, and bodies.”
“I would not be because I would be too busy laughing at her but that is my reaction and I am not Ms Watson.”
What the fuck is it with women who think men automatically owe them every courtesy in every possible situation? What a bunch of whiny, entitled babies.
The poor dear, her life must be fucking ruined. How dare he talk about her at all on his own blog, the nerve.
My guess is a big ole excuse. Man if you saw this shit on an MRA site it’d be man boobz worthy.
Ami, I waiting for you to call out all those comments I regendered. Because you care, right?
I’ll phrase it differently. If those comments (in context) had come out w/ a different gender, do you believe I would normally call them out, and say they are misogynist? :]
You alrdy think I’m the most vile person here… now suddenly you believe I care about things? o_O So… you do believe I’m a good person and my reputation will go down in your eyes if I don’t do what you want me to correct? :]