Two atheists get in an elevator
So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:
Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?
Then Richard Dawkins says,
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Richard
In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:
Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.
Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?
In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)
The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing. Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.
The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were. Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):
So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’
Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.
That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:
What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?
Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies. She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.
Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.
Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:
I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”
In a followup post, she noted:
When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.
And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.
Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.
They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.
And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:
I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.
She didn’t shut up.
So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.
Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc – Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.
Posted on July 6, 2011, in creepy, feminism, hypocrisy, misogyny, oppressed men, patriarchy, rape, reactionary bullshit, sexual harassment, threats. Bookmark the permalink. 1,701 Comments.
Isn’t this misandry?
nope.
If the man in question, who this fine woman deemed a creep wrote a blog that he felt this woman was a creepy bitch, would you sympathize with him and support his feelings?
If not, misandry dictates your every thought.
Keep up the hate. Cya.
I guess Slavey gets told “No!” by everyone, wherever he is, so it makes sense to him that context doesn’t matter. He’s had a hard life.
Excusing your bad behavior, while condemning a man behavior based on a womans feelings. Isn’t this misandry?
I don’t know what my bad behavior was.
I don’t hate men. I feel indifferent toward men in general–they’re just people, with good ones and bad ones–and warm toward many specific men like my father and my boyfriend and my male friends. The only men I hate are the ones who have committed violence or who are themselves hateful.
If a woman had made a man feel creeped out and uncomfortable, I would condemn that. But this isn’t recursive–you can’t say “you made me feel bad by telling me that I made you feel bad.” He made her feel bad, and she has the right to say so, no matter how it makes him feel.
God, if he’s even reading this. He may not be. The point of her telling the story–which did not use his name–was to provide an example to other men of how not to act in the future, so that no one, male or female, would have to feel bad in the future.
If the man in question, who this fine woman deemed a creep wrote a blog that he felt this woman was a creepy bitch
I would, however, wonder why he was hitting on her.
At this point, you’ll find it every time a woman says “I like snowcones” or “nice weather out today.”
Notice the contempt with which you talk about snowcones. You are so indoctrinated to hate delicious, icy, sugary treats that you don’t even recognize the depth of your missnowconey. Your claim to like snowcones is empty and convinces no one outside your own narrow circle of snowcone haters. Fortunately, I am here to expose your anti-snowcone hypocrazy.
I don’t know what my bad behavior was.
Disagreeing with a mannish man.
And hating elephants.
I don’t know what my bad behavior was.
Disagreeing with a mannish man.
And hating elephants.
And snowcones.
Cap’n B, that’s missnowconerey.
You obviously have reading comprehension issues.
And Holly, seriously, your anti-nice weather bias is showing. What did nice weather ever do to you?
Elephant = bad, hippo = good
*wags tiny hippo tail*
I don’t hate snowcones.
Vampires, on the other hand….Alpha undead assholes, every one of them.
And a pony.
I’ve gotta confess… I do hate snowcones. Maybe if they were made with quality syrup, like those Torani syrups, but they always seem to come in flavors limited to “sticky sweet blue” and “sticky sweet red” and I hate that.
Cap’n B, that’s missnowconerey.
You obviously have reading comprehension issues.
Yeah, like I even care. I have a life, after all.
I’ve gotta confess… I do hate snowcones. Maybe if they were made with quality syrup, like those Torani syrups, but they always seem to come in flavors limited to “sticky sweet blue” and “sticky sweet red” and I hate that.
So you admit that your previous claim to like snowcones was a lie! Why should we trust anything you say, now that you have outed yourself as a liar and virulent missnowconeist?
The shave ice in Hawaii to excellent, you can also get it with vanilla ice cream on the bottom, and the syrups aren’t just stick red and blue (which is nasty).
Fuck…. “is” excellent. Typing is not my thing today.
So you admit that your previous claim to like snowcones was a lie! Why should we trust anything you say, now that you have outed yourself as a liar and virulent missnowconeist?
Oh, you’ve got me now, CB. I hate snowcones just the way I hate men.
I only couldn’t admit I hated men–I had to talk about in codewords and implications while claiming to like them–because our society is…
Wait a gol’ danged minute. If our society is misandrist, why do I have to be secretive about hating men? I ought to just say it, and get backslaps and high fives!
@hellkell
Well, thanks for deigning to like snowcones that don’t offend your delicate sensibilities. Obviously, your “shaved ice in Hawaii” is the Brad Pitt of the snowcone world. If it were an ordinary snowcone, you wouldn’t give it the time of day, now would you? Typical.
As jerky as they can be, I confess that I feel bad for MRAL and Ion after this latest spat. The main pillars supporting their arguments were still along the lines of “I act like this because no woman will ever want me otherwise” and “if a man is ugly, he’s doomed to be alone–good looking people get EVERYTHING.”
I mean, people don’t usually sink to this level of hatred, but a lot of people still spend a lot of their lives feeling ugly and unworthy. I feel like we need to start an “It Gets Better” program for chubby geeks.
Wow, this is really easy. No wonder these guys like being MRAs…you don’t even have to think.
The length of a comment thread, and the speed with which it grows, is directly proportional to the number of trolls commenting in that thread.
Xt = Acx/h
where Xt is the number of trolls commenting, cx/m is the number of comments posted per hour, and A is a proportionality constant.
You’re right, CB, I guess I owe the beta snowcones of the world a big fat apology followed by some hot tongue action. I’ve just been too busy riding the alpha snowcone carousel!
Molly Ren – I don’t mean to self-promote (yes I do), but here’s my personal “It Gets Better” story for chubby geeks:
http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2011/03/growing-up-ugly.html
I was, from about the time that appearance mattered (about middle school) up until I got into the kink scene, an ugly kid. Not three-eyes-ugly, but there were some things going against me: I’ve been fat since I was a baby, I had no idea how to dress myself, I have really weird hair, I hit puberty relatively late, and I’d skipped so many grades I was three years younger than everyone in my class. So when I got to high school, everyone else was in hot pink belly shirts and long blond ponytails and had breasts, and I was in an XXL denim shirt with hair like a tumbleweed and two years away from even a trainer bra.
[...]
This isn’t the Ugly Duckling story. I have a little bit more style and social skills now, but I’m no swan. I never did grow nice tits. I never did lose the weight. I didn’t even get my hair under control. But nonetheless I grew up. And although I don’t think I got pretty, I got to feeling pretty. I became first unafraid to wear normal clothes (i.e., the correct size instead of XXL, colors and designs other than “please don’t notice me”), then unafraid to be naked when the situation called for it. I stopped trying to hide my belly during sex. I stopped apologizing for my appearance. I started expecting people to treat me decently.
For the longest time, I had this fantasy that I’d be beautiful someday. That I was just in my “awkward stage” and then one of these years I’d really get my shit together and lose 80 pounds and my hair would be straight and long and blonde and my face would be all lips and eyelashes and cheekbones. I was just a weirdo right now, but around 25 I’d have lots of friends and be married and own a house and maybe be pregnant and I’d have a good job as vice-president of something.
Well… I have lots of friends. Besides that, no, not so much. No conventionality, no perfect fitting in, not much conventional “success,” and definitely no rapid settling-down into suburban placidity. I didn’t get the life I wanted.
I got something way better.
Note: Xt should actually be X sub t, but I don’t know the HTML to do the subscript thingie.
“I hate my snowcones the way I hate my men: sticky and blue.”
Holly: I remember that post! It rocked my socks.
I’ve never really commented on stuff like body type and self worth much on here, even when it’s been sorta relevant. But after reading the kinds of stories people post on fat acceptance blogs–about how they’ve felt miserable their whole lives–I’m wondering how much your experience is the exception rather than the norm. The life experiences that build you up still sometimes seem to be largely a matter of luck. (For example, it wasn’t until I was *through* with college that I finally found someplace where I didn’t feel like a perpetual outsider.)
I guess it’s their undertone of hatred that really curdles my urge to reach out to these guys, even though some of the demons they’re battling about self-worth and sexual attractiveness look damn familiar.
I don’t need any more help I don’t think. I’m going to be the best, mother fucker.
Molly – I’d like to think that most people, by trial-and-error if nothing else, aren’t miserable their whole lives. This may be Pollyannish of me.
I was also through with college before I found a place (the kink community) where I really fit in. But by “through with college” I mean “still having 75% or more of my life ahead of me.” That counts as It Getting Better in my book.
Oh, hey, this is still going?
I’d just like to chime in to say, as someone who has both asked people out and been asked out, I prefer the former. Not that I think being asked is a horrible burden or an imposition or anything (really it’s not – people can do it in clueless or creepy ways but the vast majority of them are cool about it, at least in my experience). But I do like being the one doing the asking; even if it sometimes makes me nervous or scared it also makes me feel powerful and in control. Even when they say no.
But if I actually thought I HAD to sit back and bat my eyelashes and wait for a guy to figure out I was into him before getting any action? Yeah, that would suck. And would most certainly NOT count as “privilege”. Thus I’m really glad that’s not the case.
Mr. Al: “It was pretty stupid, I mean, she had just basically said she didn’t want to be hit on. It’s pretty funny, actually. Did the guy have Asperger’s? It wouldn’t surprise me. But the point is that he has a moral right to approach her, even if it’s at a really weird time. She has the right to say no. They both exercised their rights. But people are bitching and moaning at him for no reason.”
OK, two things. First, she didn’t “basically” say she didn’t want to be hit on, she gave a panel presentation explicitly saying that she didn’t want to be hit on and then, it sounds like, spent an evening expanding on the clear idea that she did not want to be hit on.
Second, she has a right to say no. But she also — really, truly! — has a right to make an off-handed remark in kind of a funny way about the interaction on her vlog. I know! It seems unfair. “She should have said ‘no’ and thought no more about it,” says Mr. Al. Honestly, I think the fact that she spoke up about it is what’s getting a lot of people to take up against her. It’s one thing to say no. It’s another thing to EXPRESS AN OPINION! It’s a parallel between the guy who hit on her listening to her speak expansively about not wanting to be hit on and then hitting on her: Women can speak, but only under certain circumstances. And then they must not be listened to or taken seriously.
Seriously, Mr. Al? “She should have thought no more about it.” I hate to be this guy, but: Says the guy who — months after the event — complains that a female acquaintance said hi to him on the elevator but wasn’t as warm as she could have been, obsessively mulling over what he would like to do to her, to teach her not to spit on him with her unfriendly hellos!
Jesus fuck, dude. Get some fucking perspective. People talk about shit that happened to them.
This is the strangest post I’ve ever read here by far.
I’ll recap for myself: Woman talks about an experience she had in an elevator where a guy asks her to his room at 5 am, she says it was creepy behavior.
I’d assume at this point any sane individual would realize that she’s initialed to hold that opinion no matter what their “political” strips are. She didn’t name him, she didn’t call him a creep.. nothing. About a benign a comment as I could imagine. I’ve never been a blogger but it seems to me both male and female bloggers comment on their experiences and emotions around them.
Besides all the other craziness on page three or so of this thread one of our mra’s questioned why she’d be in a elevator at 5 in the morning. Saying she was at a bar flirting like a five dollar whore.
Crazy… just downright crazy. Talk about much ado about nothing.
As a side note MRAL: You seem to be a bit healthier, congratulations and here’s hoping for more improvement. Perhaps slave could take a page from your book, once you’re in a better place you may be someone who can do a lot to help others that are going through what you are.
I hate snocones too! I hate chewing on ice, and snocones are just ice soaked in a melted popsicle. Yuck.
BTW, I stayed out of this thread because i thought it would turn into a total WTF-fest like the threads at Pharyngula and Pandagon. Turns out I missed all the fun! *pout*
Also NWO noticed me! Just offhand back on page 2, but he noticed me! I’ve arrived!
Shaved ice and italian ice are, IMHO, far superior to snow cones. Does that make me icist?
Also NWO noticed me! Just offhand back on page 2, but he noticed me! I’ve arrived!
sure, but now you need to take a shower.
Ion: “In that case, I have to say I’m sorry for women who think that way. Fear and paranoia is no way to live.”
For once, I agree. Only I am not sure your belief that women shouldn’t think this way doesn’t depend on the outcome of the interaction in question. Because from what I’ve observed, MRA’s always and without fail talk out of both sides of their collective mouth on this subject.
If a woman deems every male stranger a potential rapist and interprets any innocuous (for argument’s sake) interaction as harassment, then pity her and pox be upon the feminist houses, it’s misandry dammit!! But on the other hand, if the stranger first politely asks her if she would like to fuck and then proceeds to rape her, then it’s her own damned fault for not taking appropriate precautions by not being in an enclosed space (such as an elevator) with a stranger at 5 am. Right?
MRA’s constantly lecture women on the importance of never forgetting that the world is a dangerous place and that the woman alone is responsible for assuring her own safety by avoiding men who could be rapists — which is ALL men, really. Which translates into the logical conclusion that women must think about rape all the time, fear rape all the time and see any and all signs of male attention as a potential threat, because if we don’t, and we get raped, we are at fault for the rape. At the same time, while living in constant fear and apprehension of rape, a woman must not nevertheless live in constant fear and apprehension of rape, because that’s just sick. Also, while a woman must assume that all men are potential rapists, she must not think that all men are potential rapists. That’s because NOT considering men de facto rapists is unfair to rapists who are men, and considering men de facto rapists is unfair to men who aren’t rapists. Either way, whatever a woman does short of staying at home and veiling herself head to toe is pure misandry. Or something.
Based on a few of the MRAers comments-their problem is with the woman daring to speak about how something made her feel despite it being an example of how to fix a serious problem within a movement that obviously she cares about.
Also, apparently if a man asks a woman at an inappropriate time and place to do something like go to a strange male’s hotel room at 4 in the morning, she cannot view (or tell anyone) it as inappropriate behavior that to her, and possibly no one else, felt creepy.
But the thing is-it was a perfect example of what she had been talking about all along so why should she not use it to show those guys who were not listening (and still are not) that this is not a good idea because it makes women not become a part of the movement.
So essentially, she cannot tell anyone how it made her feel-she needs to be seen and not heard because it makes men uncomfortable to know that they sometimes do things that to them are perfectly okay but the other person does not view it that way.
@KristinMH he needs a new “squeeze” cuz I suspect he’s gonna be trying to NOT go after me now xD (we’ll see how long it lasts ) xD congratulations! :D *gives you a cat hat*
Kave | July 7, 2011 at 12:36 pm
This is the strangest post I’ve ever read here by far.
I’ll recap for myself: Woman talks about an experience she had in an elevator where a guy asks her to his room at 5 am, she says it was creepy behavior.
I’d assume at this point any sane individual would realize that she’s initialed to hold that opinion no matter what their “political” strips are. She didn’t name him, she didn’t call him a creep.. nothing. About a benign a comment as I could imagine. I’ve never been a blogger but it seems to me both male and female bloggers comment on their experiences and emotions around them.
Besides all the other craziness on page three or so of this thread one of our mra’s questioned why she’d be in a elevator at 5 in the morning. Saying she was at a bar flirting like a five dollar whore.
Crazy… just downright crazy. Talk about much ado about nothing.
srsly o_o i dun get what all the issue is -_- ppl DO talk about this stuff on blogs all the time… (I have xD)
NWOslave | July 7, 2011 at 11:36 am
If the man in question, who this fine woman deemed a creep wrote a blog that he felt this woman was a creepy bitch, would you sympathize with him and support his feelings?
You do know that she didn’t name him right? o_O
If he just said “I was in an elevator with this girl and she hit on me and that was creepy and girls don’t do this it makes us guys uncomfortable?” I don’t think nebody here would be upset or nething.. o_O
tho clearly you think we would… so I have a question, in that scenario… you tell US xD how would WE react? how do you know we’ll react? What would we say about him and what would David’s post look like? XD
What if the guy just had an eccentric sense of humor? Or perhaps it was just a prank.
Or perhaps he just came late and missed the part where she said she doesn’t like getting hit on (if she even said that at all). Or perhaps he misinterpreted it or perhaps he was sitting further back and didn’t hear it. What if somebody told him that she was interested in him and coerced him to make a move? Could it be that he was madly in love with her and saw that elevator as the last opportunity to ever talk to her?
And what (OMG) if it was all platonic after all? I mean, the fact that everybody is so 100% certain that any invitation from a guy must be sexual is in itself supremely sexist.
I could go on for ages about possible reasons why he might not be creepy. It all boils down to perception really. And if your perception is that someone is creepy when they harmlessly invite someone for a drink then your perception of the world is distorted (probably by spending too much time with feminist dogma).
Wow o_o that was a LOT of comments, and a giant troll fest (Ion’s glee at the idea he could be a bully is kinda cute xD ) and MRAL actually proves himself ot be reasonable! After… the usual thing where he needs teeth pulling and venting first… but I have hope for him :3
I don’t want to offend women who haven’t done anything to me.
MRAL, you rly need to write that up and put it on your wall :3
I find it funny NWO brought up the car thing.. I wrote a post a few months ago about how stupid I thought the rape prevention tips stuff is, and esp the ones relating to cars (it linked to Holly’s cosmocking about Cosmo’s rape prevention tips special that was all about cars) and changing tires and etc…
As pointed out, part of acquaintance rape is that somebody you meet and go home w/ is considered an acquaintance…
How come ppl point to DSK as an anecdote proof, but all of the stories about rape and assault shared on even just this forum, do not count as proof the world may not be as ppl believe? o_O
I dunno what that giant fight was even about? o_O As ppl know from my previous posts here, I dunno why this is a big deal at all… she thought it was creepy… she happened to say so in her blog (the thing about the new e-world is that suddenly it’s possible to know what some ppl might have just said in a coffee shop to a friend in the past, but it’s just knowing what she thinks… every woman might be thinking you’re a creep, or might be thinking you’re hot but she’s tired, or just “meow meow meow” like what’s in my head usually xD if you want to hit on ppl, you have to be ready that you have NO IDEA what they might be thinking, and honestly it doesn’t matter what they think of you if you get a no, and you move on..)
look, you don’t have to take her advice -_- the guy didn’t assault her (maybe he might have, maybe he wouldn’t have, who knows, but she didn’t go w/ him) and she didn’t accuse him of rape… so.. no harm no foul…
in fact if Dawkins et al had not blown this up, it would have just gone under the radar… so I think it’s unfair to be saying “feminists want to use this to charge men w/ rape” since this was not a big deal, no feminists picked this up.. she did not contact any feminist organizations to organize a campaign…
this is a deal b/c ppl are making it a big deal.. which is FINE, ppl can make a deal about w/e xD (she thought he was creepy, ion thinks she’s a terrible person, MRAL thinks she has privilege, Dawkins think she’s a petty bad woman, ppl think Dawkins is a sexist asshat, etc etc etc) but let’s at least remember that this started b/c ppl reacted to her blog post, NOT that feminist organizations were using it as a big deal… xD
like… calm down… it’s this tiny little thing… this is prolly NOT the guy’s first encounter.. we don’t even know he’s a virgin! everybdy’s acting like he must be some poor guy who is crying about being a creep and isn’t approaching women again and nobody’s slept w/ him… we don’t know this… or that she’s whining and whining outside of this blog post…. we dnno that either -_- it’s one encounter… and suddenly it’s become like… ALL MALE AND FEMALE ENCOUNTERS EVER, and when THAT happens, then the stakes are raised and they become unfair… suddenly if she rejects him and thinks him creepy, she’s blasting all malekind, while he’s representing shroedingers rapist…
a guy hits on a girl, in what’s prolly a bad situation to do it in, (possibly b/c of the bad context) she says no… later says she thinks it was creepy gives her dating advice…(cosmo gives dating advice all the time, I dun agree w/ that either xD )
I.. just dun understand why this is such a big deal -_-
And as for girls never hit on guys… I was just asking for advice HOW to earlier this week xD i think the problem is often we see it as “guys must always ask girls they like, but girls never have to ask guys” full stop…
but what about girls who like specific guys? every single guy isn’t the same to me, nor do i want to sit there waiting and hoping some perfect guy is gonna fall on my doorstep, and I think a lot of girls don’t want this either, at least none of the ones here xD
(btw it turns out that guy was taken :\ found this out the hard way when I saw him holding hands… why didn’t he take my hints and just tell me he was taken? didn’t he understand my intent of asking him out to drinks!? oh the humanity! xD )
Also I’ve been in both men’s and women’s washrooms…. I’ll let you guys in on a sekrit: they’re both exactly the same! nobody talks about nething sekritive! everybody just GOES TO THE WASHROOM
xD
Um.. did I cover everything? o_O
unreal man, many of those possible reasons why he might not be creepy? Are creepy.
Oh and Johnny, that was a pretty good impression of me xD Except I dun think I’d use the word “concrete”… but it is always an interesting question, cuz it gets lost in all the rhetoric. :3
@ minou
define “creepy”
Yeah, and maybe he was really a bear in a human suit! I’ll bet nobody thought of that possiblity…
Why is it so important that she thought his actions were creepy? Or others did, or others don’t? o_O If you dun think the situation/his actions were creepy, then you can accept the offer next time it happens, or not… she thought things, he thought things.. maybe he has a blog up somewhere where he says some anonymous girl rejected him and she’s a stuck up bitch? then we can get into all the reasons she’s not.. but he didn’t read her mind… so he thinks she is..
Girls: if you reject a guy who means well, he might think you’re stuck up
Guys: if you approach a girl who is tired, she might think you’re creepy
um… no police were called.. there was no crying of rape.. she didn’t try to have him arrested.. he didn’t try to assault her…
did I get it about right? xD
OK:
creep·y
adj. creep·i·er, creep·i·est Informal
1. Of or producing a sensation of uneasiness or fear, as of things crawling on one’s skin: a creepy feeling; a creepy story.
2. Annoyingly unpleasant; repulsive: the creepy kids next door.
Oy! Could you stop using Autism and Asperger’s as examples, when you clearly don’t understand what’s it’s like living with them? Thanks.
You obviously haven’t come across Varney. For that, I envy you. Whiny bastard.
What if the guy just had an eccentric sense of humor? Or perhaps it was just a prank.
Playing jokes on people without their knowledge and without ever revealing it was a joke is a jerk thing to do.
Or perhaps he just came late and missed the part where she said she doesn’t like getting hit on (if she even said that at all). Or perhaps he misinterpreted it or perhaps he was sitting further back and didn’t hear it.
I think it’s still sort of weird to ask a stranger back to your room at 4 AM in an elevator.
What if somebody told him that she was interested in him and coerced him to make a move?
A suggestion is not “coercion.” It’s technically possible he was tricked into it, but… that’s really, really reaching and there’s no reason to think this happened.
Could it be that he was madly in love with her and saw that elevator as the last opportunity to ever talk to her?
If he was “madly in love” with her and she’d never spoken to him before… that’s not healthy love and in a way that kind of obsession is *more* frightening than just sexual attraction.
And what (OMG) if it was all platonic after all? I mean, the fact that everybody is so 100% certain that any invitation from a guy must be sexual is in itself supremely sexist.
It’s not because it was an invitation from a guy. It’s because it was an invitation from a guy to go to his hotel room alone at 4 AM.
If he only wanted to play Parcheesi with her in a hotel room at 4 AM, I think the onus was on him to specify this.
“If you dun think the situation/his actions were creepy, then you can accept the offer next time it happens”
Well now this is telling. Perhaps some people might want to learn that you can reject an offer without the other person being deemed as creepy. Likewise, not thinking somebody is creepy doesn’t necessarily imply accepting their offer. Who’d have thought?!
@ hellkell
So how does that apply to “many of the” possibilities I mentioned?
Yes, and what if he were eating a snowcone? HAS NO ONE CONSIDERED THAT POSSIBILITY?!?
As far as I can tell this is the result of this fight:
Feminist men: going to continue to not do things they believe creep women out… may be too sensitive and miss out on some opportunities, may in fact get others w/ women who like their style… etc will continue w/ their lives, dating, fooding, working, etc
Feminist women: will continue to be creeped out by behaviour that creeps them out, will continue to reject men who creep them out, will not reject men they like (who obv don’t creep them out)… will go w/ guys in situations they feel safe, will avoid situations they do not…
MRA men:will continue to be annoyed that women may think they’re creepy… will still think women who reject them are stuck up bitches… wlll still go about their lives, and approach women regardless, and if they get rejected fine, if they don’t, then yay! will love, live, food, w/e it is human beings do…
Women who don’t agree w/ her (there are no MRA women who showed up here I think): will continue to be ok w/ guys approaching them, will not think them creepy.. may even go out w/ some of them! will love, live, cat around, etc etc…
and ppl who don’t agree w/ each other, or don’t want to go out w/ each other prolly won’t be hooking up.. o_O
I have a v pragmatic view of this.. throw things at the wall and see what sticks… I mean as long as ppl aren’t assaulting each other… MRAL if you approach.. somebody here (can’t remember who said what nemore), she might think you’re creepy and say no… you’d prolly be hurt.. Nobby prolly wouldn’t be… Nobby would prolly not approach me, Ion might.. I might not think him creepy… but another woman might… and Nobby prolly would have a better chance w/ another woman here xD
Ppl here aren’t gonna be able to convince others what’s creepy and what’s not and what should be and what’s not.. it’s all just general advice, and maybe it’s good to know that there’s girls out there who would not like to be approached at 4am in an elevator (in general this is prolly not a good time or place xD for nething.. even if ppl asked me to trade pokemon it might be odd xD )… or maybe it’s not.. xD
Or maybe it’s just cuz I’m an angel cat bunny…. and I dun understand humans… xD
I’ll play along. All of those possibilities are creepy at 4am from a relative stranger. Some are creepier than others.
@Unreal man why do you care what she thinks? o_O she didn’t reject him BY calling him creepy.. she just thought that what he did was creepy… xD
is your concern her thoughts or that she expressed them? o_O Like do you think she should NOT think he’s creepy, or that she should keep it to herself? :] Those can be different discussions.
Yeah, unreal, it’s almost as if Ami didn’t put “or not” after the bit you quoted. But, of course, she did.
@CaptainBathrobe yeah xD I said “accept it, or not”
so as I said, if you don’t think it’s creepy you can STILL reject it
but he left the “or not” out xD
Guys, we’re at 899 comments! Keep going! :D
Hmm, I smell (heh) an unfilled business niche!
Ami, there are times that I really don’t understand humans either! But the MRA’s take on this is basically: “I want permission to do things that most people would consider ‘creepy’ but I do not want to be called creepy, as that hurts my feelings.”
is your concern her thoughts or that she expressed them? o_O Like do you think she should NOT think he’s creepy, or that she should keep it to herself?
Good question.
I find it interesting that MRAs seem more invested in demanding that women change their reactions to behavior perceived as creepy than in altering behavior to obtain a better result. Which strategy is more realistic and effective … well, I have my own ideas.
What, no one else wants to talk about Varney?
Why did he keep hitting on women whose blood he’d already tried to drink? They either knew it was him who attacked them in their sleep, or they had a (natural) subconscious aversion to him because of it.
I realise the monthly blood-drinking was a compulsive behaviour he didn’t have much control over, but he should at least try to avoid his victims afterwards – not try to woo them.
The problem is that “creepy” is a very loaded word. Using it to judge somebody – especially just from reading gossip about it is using privilege in a harmful way. It is purposely vague so it could essentially mean anything. This ensures that the branded or any other male who might be looking to make a move knows that he’s never safe from being labeled creepy no matter how much he tries to follow the advice. Even following advice will be called creepy by some.
I think a lot of the MRAs are under the impression that relationships (whether lifelong marriage or a one-night stand) start when you jump out in front of a woman and yell “HEY! WANNA BE MY GIRL?”
The woman may say yes or no, for reasons fair or unfair, but it all comes down to that.
The idea of building a relationship over time–and I don’t mean extended courtship, I just mean getting to know each other (and getting to know if you even like her) over enough time that she actually feels like she knows whether you’re “basically a good guy” when you ask her back to your hotel room.
It won’t get you a “yes” every time, but it’ll creep women out a lot less than the “so, are you gonna fuck me or not?” approach.
“Creepy” is a very specific word. It means:
“This person frightens me. Not AUGH A BEAR RUN frightens, but they make me worry that they do not have my best interests at heart, and if I were alone with them and unable to leave, they may do something to harm me.”
It’s not an expression of hatred but of fear. And when I tell another woman that a guy is “creepy” (which I don’t do all the time, by the way), I’m not trying to slander him; I’m trying to warn her, so that she knows he is possibly not a safe person to be around. It’s a safety thing.
The level of misandry, so accepted, indoctrinated and endorsed is truely staggering. The article is about a woman feeling a man is being creepy for talking to a woman in an elevator at 4 AM. All of you agree completely and support her 100%.
@Simone Lovelace… “All men should wish to avoid making women uncomfortable. Therefore, no men should do what elevator dude did.”
@PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth… “I would not be because I would be too busy laughing at him but that is my reaction and I am not Ms Watson.”
@KristinMH… “Because just because you don’t believe in God doesn’t mean that you don’t think that you’re entitlted to women’s time, attention, and bodies.”
@Plymouth… “Apparently I have to say this YET AGAIN because apparently my comments are invisible to MRAs or something but “creepy” is really NOT THAT BAD.”
@FedUpVT… “How DARE this woman tell us enlightened men how to behave! It’s an infringement on my First Amendment Penis!”
@Holly Pervocracy… “She just said this made her uncomfortable. So if you don’t want to make women uncomfortable, maybe don’t do this.”
@Ami Angelwings… “right? o_O (it’s hard to follow when ppl are telling me how my entire gender, and therefore me, think.. xD )”
Now imagine if an article like this was on a MRM site and the comments read along these line? With ALL women being dictated to about ensuring men always feel comfortable. Laughing at women’s feeble come on’s. Being entitled to a mans attention, wealth and body. A man’s insult to a woman ain’t so bad and is acceptable. Mockery of men. SHe’s uncomfortable by his actions, he should change his actions. All the prevailing thought here is the same without contradiction other than the bad men.
Why that article/comment’s would by misogyny and all the crew would be mocking those stupid men. Your acceptance and endorsement of misandry is plain to see. This woman elevated her social status by claiming victimhood at a mans expense. Everyone of you are in total agreement. If being able/endorsed to dictate a mans actions and expecting praise for ridiculing him if he doesn’t comply. Expecting ALL men, as stated by youselves to be constantly on thier guard to ensure no woman ever feels uncomfortable or sleighted in any manner, while offering nothing but ridicule and mockery in return isn’t misandy? Than what is?
To expand somewhat on what Holly said here…
What if somebody told him that she was interested in him and coerced him to make a move?
A suggestion is not “coercion.” It’s technically possible he was tricked into it, but… that’s really, really reaching and there’s no reason to think this happened.
Also, if that is the case, her response of “hey, that’s not a good idea don’t do it” is a GOOD COUNTER to friends saying “do it! Hit on her! She wants it!” and not some crazy overreaction.
This guy, not a horrible person, just a little clueless, as are apparently quite a few atheist con-goers. Rebecca attempted to inject a little clue. Still don’t get why this is a big deal.
unreal man
So is slut a loaded word. Agreed?
If someone was to say that John David is a creep and Gloria Bleep is a slut would that not be the same thing?
But that didn’t happen here. What happened is akin to you saying in your video blog “I meet this woman last night and she came across as slutty”.
No names, no calling her an outright slut, just your opinion.
Why in heavens name are you not seeing this in a reality based content? Read Ami’s post again. This is the web dude.. you don’t even have to say you’re wrong you just have to stop posting.
@Plymouth… “This guy, not a horrible person, just a little clueless, as are apparently quite a few atheist con-goers. Rebecca attempted to inject a little clue. Still don’t get why this is a big deal.”
You continue to confirm my post on the previous page, thank you.
You as a woman may dictate any action a man takes as something a man shouldn’t do because it makes you uncomfortable. Yet if I, as a man, try to dictate any action you do that I don’t like, I would be controlling.
Misandry, you take it for granted.