Two atheists get in an elevator
So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:
Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?
Then Richard Dawkins says,
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Richard
In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:
Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.
Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?
In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)
The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing. Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.
The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were. Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):
So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’
Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.
That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:
What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?
Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies. She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.
Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.
Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:
I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”
In a followup post, she noted:
When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.
And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.
Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.
They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.
And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:
I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.
She didn’t shut up.
So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.
Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc – Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.
Posted on July 6, 2011, in creepy, feminism, hypocrisy, misogyny, oppressed men, patriarchy, rape, reactionary bullshit, sexual harassment, threats. Bookmark the permalink. 1,701 Comments.
Ugh, italics fail. Just the first paragraph is Ion’s question. The rest is my response.
Ion, I’m going to have to ask for a cite for that one. And no, Stormfront articles don’t count.
You don’t see any value in cutting them some slack on that basis?
Well, in what way? In that women are often subtly discriminates by being more cautious around strange men than strange women? I have no problem with that, it is a private an reasonable response to the facts. Hell, other men do that too.
That’s not what happened, though. He asked her to do something, she (presumably out of the aforementioned caution) said no. He left. That should have been the end of it, and neither party is in the wrong. Then she, just like many other bullying women, started calling him a creep and a loser.
No, I am not cutting women slack when they start bashing on men who did nothing wrong after the fact.
Careful, MRAL, you’re starting to sound like a feminist.
This is MRA dogma, not feminist bigotry.
Ion, statistics can be made to say anything. Are you one of those “statistics say that blacks are responsible for all crime and for stealing Christmas” racists, like Laura Wood?
@Ion (and @MRAL and @unreal if you would like to answer): let me just get this straight. You think that it is appropriate, after a person has just spent several hours at a conference talking about not liking to be put in awkward situations, that it is perfectly fine to put her in an awkward situation?
Also, please keep in mind that not only is she being offered coffee at 4am, but that before heading out of the room, she said “I’m tired and I want to go to bed”.
Ion, really, even after numerous people in this thread (and elsewhere) have pointed out what was problematic about the elevator guy’s behavior… you still would do the same thing that he did, if you were in that situation?
Nothing can explain this level of incomprehension, other than an empathy deficit. Which is too bad, really. People with empathy deficits usually have a tough time in life.
Yeah, MRAL, having to plan your life around the 25% chance that you’ll be sexually assaulted is only a subtle form of discrimination.
Nothing can explain this level of incomprehension, other than an empathy deficit. Which is too bad, really. People with empathy deficits usually have a tough time in life.
In that case, considering virtually nobody here was willing to even give Elevator Guy the benefit of the doubt and basically labeled him as ignorant and inconsiderate at best, creepy stalker/rapist at worst from the very beginning, I’d say you’ll all have a very tough time in life.
Look, the guy was obviously a fucking idiot, given that she had just given a talk about getting hit on. But it’s not creepy, it’s more pathetic and funny. He still did nothing wrong.
*curls up with basenji and scritches pointy basenji ears*
Can they have bacon, Johnny?
Honestly, I’d say that even someone with an empathy deficit could at least intellectually understand it enough to concede the point and move on.
25% chance that you’ll be sexually assaulted
How about a citation for that one? Let me guess, feminist site.
Ion, really, even after numerous people in this thread (and elsewhere) have pointed out what was problematic about the elevator guy’s behavior… you still would do the same thing that he did, if you were in that situation?
You game is terrible, Ion, if that is true. Women all over the internet are saying that this is a terrible strategy because it makes them uncomfortable. SO, is your goal to get a date or to make women feel uncomfortable??
@Johnny better numbers are ~15 percent, actually.
@Ion a second question, please. Sorry for multiple. You complain about having the burden put on your for making advances. Why, then, is it a problem when she gives advice?
@MRAL Just to say, I’m not sure if you realize, but she did not name anyone. She left the elevator guy completely anonymous (hence the reason he’s still ‘elevator guy’). This is part of the issue with Unreal’s article, which explicitly claims she named him.
Yeah, MRAL, having to plan your life around the 25% chance that you’ll be sexually assaulted is only a subtle form of discrimination.
Lol at women “planning their life” around assault. Cause I look around and I see over half the people walking on the sidewalk, pointedly not cowering in fear, are women.
Ion, the US government estimates that 1 in 6 or ~ 16% of women are raped. The 25% statistic takes into account the number of unreported rapes. However, the government’s statistic is pretty startling. 1 in 6 women. Do you know more than 6 six? Statistics say that chance are at least one is a survivor.
You mean feminist bloggers and feminist blog commenters don’t you? Because I saw just as many people who saw no problem with his actions. In fact, I think the reaction against Watson was one of the main things the feminists were complaining about?
Be mindful that the women around you face a significant risk of sexual assault, and behave accordingly.
You should also be aware that if women didn’t face a significant risk of sexual assault, there would be no need for you to modify your own behavior. That’s why you ought to be a feminist.
Svilova, to forestall the inevitable counter, perhaps you might be able to explain to these guys how statistics determine the number of unreported rapes/assaults?
“No woman should ever be subjected to non-asexual attention if she does not want to be. “
Yes, imho every woman should wear one of those LED belt buckles.
The ticker communicates her status of interest:
“+++++I’m horny! Hit on me.+++++”,
“+++++No, not you! The hot blond guy.++++++”, “
“+++++Yes, you! Buy me a drink!++++++”.
I’d like to note that the Book of Mordred has yet to respond to this:
Since the human race sadly lacks telepathic abilities, how to you propose to inform men precisely when women desire and do not desire “non-asexual attention”?
Anything it takes, right? After all, we exist only to please women and make them comfortable.
And this:
In other words, men need to hold themselves themselves to a higher standard as punishment for being men. In other words, men are treated differently for being men. In other words, that’s not the dictionary.
He’s ignored other people as well. It’s interesting, any time someone issues the Book of Mordred a real challenge, he ignores it and starts spouting one-liners. Kids, this is what a feminist looks like.
Nobby and Svilova – please point out where I “complained” about having to make advances or referred to it as a “burden”. Also:
Ion, the US government estimates that 1 in 6 or ~ 16% of women are raped. The 25% statistic takes into account the number of unreported rapes.
Do you have a link to that?
MRAL: There’s a whole bunch of posts from myself, luke123 and unreal man somewhat further upthread that got ignored or dodged as well.
Whenever Ion talks about dating women, it cracks me up. I assure you that I don’t have hundreds of men begging me to fuck them just because I have a pussy. I have never been able to just snap my fingers and get a boyfriend. I actually had to, ya know, be interesting at parties and go to events and approach people on my own behalf.
“Lol at women “planning their life” around assault.”
ZOMG, ROTFLMAO! To paraphrase Jerri Blank, Rape, that’s hilarious! But I’m sad…
Hey, I just watched this documentary about border crossings. Did you know that 100% of the women who try to cross from Mexico into the U.S. buy contraception beforehand because of the very high incidence of rape?
OK, MRAL, it’s time to conduct a thought experiment. Suppose that half the people around you were bigger and stronger than you, that most of them looked upon you as a potential sex partner, that many of them had no compunctions about making crude sexual remarks in your hearing, and that a small but significant minority of them felt entitled to have sex with you, whether you wanted to or not, and would force you to have sex if they got the chance.
How would you live your life?
Be mindful that the women around you face a significant risk of sexual assault, and behave accordingly.
You mean, prostrate onself before them because they have a higher chance of being victims of ONE crime (whereas men are at greater risk regarding virtually everything else), and accept rudeness without question because, well, they’re women! But no, YOU have to be the picture of friendliness at all times, you’re just a man.
Yeah, I’m not doing that.
Since the human race sadly lacks telepathic abilities, how to you propose to inform men precisely when women desire and do not desire “non-asexual attention”?
If a particular woman publicly announces to a roomful of people that she does not enjoy being hit on, it’s pretty safe to assume one should not hit on that particular woman.
To those whining that I “ignored” them: Normally my reply to useless bullshit is a “your mama” joke, but given where we are I figured that would not be very tactful.
MRAL wrote, “But no, YOU have to be the picture of friendliness at all times, you’re just a man.”
I’d hope you’d be friendly as often as possible because you’re a human who has to interact with other humans on a daily basis, but that’s just me.
Unfortunately, MRAL and his ilk view friendliness as a means to an end, not as just something good for it’s own sake.
In what world does “not doing things that reasonable people are likely to find intimidating” = “prostrating oneself”?
To those whining that I “ignored” them: Normally my reply to useless bullshit is a “your mama” joke, but given where we are I figured that would not be very tactful.
in other words, you have no response. Ion, unreal man, luke- the debate has been conceded to us. The Book of Mordred should now be ignored, unless he decides to re-enter the debate with a tangible rebuttal to one of our many lengthy posts that shot holes the size of cannonballs in his worldview.
@Ion:”But since men are still overwhelmingly the ones who have to approach, how do you solve that?
That would be you saying “the burden is on me to approach”. It means the same thing.
And again:
@Ion (and @MRAL and @unreal if you would like to answer): let me just get this straight. You think that it is appropriate, after a person has just spent several hours at a conference talking about not liking to be put in awkward situations, that it is perfectly fine to put her in an awkward situation?
Also, please keep in mind that not only is she being offered coffee at 4am, but that before heading out of the room, she said “I’m tired and I want to go to bed”.
Oh, a slight modification:
that many of them had no compunctions about making crude sexual remarks in your hearing, or groping you
Hellkell, I think Ion was also saying that he wasn’t going to change for anyone upthread. But he’s apparently getting pussy by acting like “a five year old”, so whatever else we say about being a decent human is irrelevant. o.O
To those whining that I “ignored” them: Normally my reply to useless bullshit is a “your mama” joke, but given where we are I figured that would not be very tactful.
Translation: I didn’t have an answer so I used a lame copout insult instead and hoped everyone would just move on.
I’d hope you’d be friendly as often as possible because you’re a human who has to interact with other humans on a daily basis, but that’s just me.
But not women, they’re glorious goddesses and above such petty concerns as being nice and polite to mere mortals such as us. At least according to the Book of Mordred and Pez.
It is noted that MRAL’s reaction is a perfect example of entitled behavior.
So yeah…good to see that you guys get it. Johnny, et al.
MRAL, werewolves don’t have books.
MRAL, we’re not all out to get you because we have vaginas. Really. Even if your life sucks right now.
Also, “Women are more likely to be victims of sexual violence than are men. The National Violence Against Women Survey (NVAWS) sampled 8,000 women and 8,000 men and found that 1 in 6 women (17 percent) and 1 in 33 men (3 percent) reported experiencing an attempted or completed rape at some time in their lives. [3]”
From the National Institute of Justice: http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/rape-sexual-violence/victims-perpetrators.htm
Citation 3 specifically: “Tjaden, P., and N. Thoennes. Prevalence, Incidence and Consequences of Violence Against Women Findings From the National Violence Against Women Survey. Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice, November 1998, NCJ 172837. “
You think that it is appropriate, after a person has just spent several hours at a conference talking about not liking to be put in awkward situations, that it is perfectly fine to put her in an awkward situation?
I said no, it’s not appropriate, and the guy is a socially retarded idiot. But “awkward” does not equal “creepy” or “dangerous”. He did nothing morally wrong. Since women constantly put the onus on men to do all the approaching work, there will be some awkward situations, because as said before (and this is a shocker) not all men are suave Bond types, but ALL men ARE compelled to approach women. This situation is women’s collective fault, and it sucks for men a hell of a lot more than it sucks for women.
Damn, no books? That’s terrible!
*rides out into Hardwood Forest with saddlebags full of books, a Kindle, and an iPad*
What? This is an errand of mercy!
In what world does “not doing things that reasonable people are likely to find intimidating” = “prostrating oneself”?
Probably in the same world where asking someone to have a cup of coffee = creepy stalker.
My life is looking a lot better right now, actually. I am no longer helpless. I no longer have a massive inferiority complex. And so I will not stand for this SHIT any more. I am going to start calling out people in real life, not just on Manboobz.
All men are compelled to approach women? You might want to rethink that.
@MRAL “Also, please keep in mind that not only is she being offered coffee at 4am, but that before heading out of the room, she said “I’m tired and I want to go to bed”.” And, again, she just talked about not wanting to be propositioned.
And, again, in the video, it is used as an example of the behavior that she is working against. And example to help illustrate her point. is this not a good idea? Again, keeping in mind she did not call out this guy by name. No one but him and her know who the heck she’s talking about.
Thanks, Molly Ren, but an outlaw werewolf’s life is pretty unsettled. No place to put the bookshelves, so to speak.
““No woman should ever be subjected to non-asexual attention if she does not want to be. “
It looks like what feminists are looking for is this. Quite effective against the ‘male gaze’ they cry about all the time.
I hear it’s quite a hit in Afghanistan.
Ion, you want to accuse me of trolling, when you’re the one who either does not grasp basic sense, or you’re just pretending not to for whatever reason.
It would be kinder to assume the latter, at this point.
@MRAL wrote, “I no longer have a massive inferiority complex. And so I will not stand for this SHIT any more. I am going to start calling out people in real life, not just on Manboobz.”
Um, dude? Rome wasn’t built in a day. I’m glad you feel better and all, but being a jerk to people IRL too might have the opposite effect.
@Ion Also, please keep in mind that not only is she being offered coffee at 4am, but that before heading out of the room, she said “I’m tired and I want to go to bed”.”
Coffee in the morning, fine. Coffee in the afternoon, probably fine. Coffee after dinner with desert, also probably fine. Coffee at 4am in his room after she said she wants to go to bed?
And MRAL, since you were being such a hardass in insisting on an answer from caseymordred, I’m going to insist on an answer from you.
How would you live your life?
Hmm. Maybe David could issue a proclamation along the lines of “commenters on Manboobz are hereby exempted from responding to specious nonsense, if they are so inclined”.
Ion, I have yet to see an explanation of why we should give the elevator guy the benefit of the doubt. If you have one, go for it. He violated a very well-known social rule; people who do that rarely get the benefit of others assuming that they did so innocently.
Oh. I assumed she sat and made fun of him, by name, for a while. Like the standard female “creepy guy” gossip that goes on constantly in women’s restrooms and stuff. If she’s just using it as an anecdote to prove her point, I don’t really have a problem with that.
@luke Oh, hey, you’re back. I had a question for you (though I may not respond immediately as I have to go to work soon. If so my apologies): Dawkins is also seeing significant blowback for his words, both from commenters and other atheist bloggers. Doesn’t that mean he made the same mistake Rebecca did, i.e. “doing it wrong”? You said the sign she did it wrong is she’s seeing blowback.
If you don’t want to scroll back up, here’s the scenario:
Suppose that half the people around you were bigger and stronger than you, that most of them looked upon you as a potential sex partner, that many of them had no compunctions about making crude sexual remarks in your hearing, or groping you, and that a small but significant minority of them felt entitled to have sex with you, whether you wanted to or not, and would force you to have sex if they got the chance.
@MRAL you should watch the video. It is explicitly a side note, and she says it in the context of “Most people got what I was saying at the talk. This guy here is an example of not getting the point of my talk.”
Mr. Al: “but ALL men ARE compelled to approach women. This situation is women’s collective fault, and it sucks for men a hell of a lot more than it sucks for women.”
Leaving aside any logical or factual errors contained in the above statement, I just have to point out that, no matter how you look at it, all men are not compelled to approach all women all the time. If, after a day of talking about how you don’t like to be hit on, someone who has been within earshot of said discussion decides to hit on you, this is unarguably NOT women’s collective fault.
How would you live your life?
No differently. Since I’d be privileged, my life would be objectively easier, though.
Nobby – thanks for the link. Here’s the part that I found interesting, the first paragraph:
What this seems to say is that the majority of women are assaulted by people they know and have been in relationships with. In other words, assault by strangers is actually a fairly uncommon occurrence…
Also, @MRAL congrats on the inferiority complex thing and the glasses (Which I wasn’t around for you saying before). They sound quite clever.
Okay, well, this Watson woman didn’t really do anything wrong. But the general attitude towards “creepiness” remains. It’s a bullying slur used by people (both men and women) to bully and silence men who either don’t fit in or who aren’t the perfect ideal to a given woman.
Good answer, MRAL. Very revealing.
Here’s a modest suggestion: share my scenario with your therapist, and your answer. See what happens.
MRAL, how do you imagine your life would be if you were a woman? I’m genuinely interested.
Like the standard female “creepy guy” gossip that goes on constantly in women’s restrooms and stuff.
Uh… no it doesn’t. I know you haven’t probably been in very many women’s restrooms, but we mostly just pee. Or when we do talk, very often we’re passing the Bechdel Test and not talking about men at all.
The only times I’ve shared “creepy guy” gossip has been as a safety warning. Not for amusement, but “watch out, this guy’s creepy, he’s groped before so he might try to grope you without consent.” Or “watch out, this guy’s creepy, he ignores boundaries in public so if you go home with him he might still ignore boundaries.” It’s not about keeping the guy down–we don’t care about that one way or the other–it’s about keeping our friends from going into what we perceive as a dangerous situation.
@luke123
Actually, there have been studies done that show women in burqas face more sexual harassment, not less. Women are harassed in sweatpants and hoodies as well as mini-skirts and low-cut tops.
Ion: “Probably in the same world where asking someone to have a cup of coffee = creepy stalker.”
You mean the world where a guy has listened to a woman speak at length about how she doesn’t like to bet hit on, and then, at 4 a.m., in a hotel, after she separated herself from the group and announces that she’s going to bed, that guy enters the elevator she’s on, gives her an insincere compliment, and asks her to continue the conversation he apparently wasn’t paying attention to in the first place in his room over coffee?
Facts. They matter.