Two atheists get in an elevator
So here’s a hilarious atheist joke for you all:
Two atheists at a conference get into an elevator at 4 AM. The dude atheist, apropos of nothing, invites the chick atheist to go to his room with him. The chick atheist, who’s never even spoken to the dude before, is creeped out by this. (She says no.) She mentions the incident in a YouTube video. A shitstorm erupts in the atheist-o-sphere because, like, how could she possibly call an atheist dude a creep and aren’t women treated worse in Islamist Theocracies?
Then Richard Dawkins says,
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Richard
In a followup comment, Dawkins tops that bit of hilarity with this:
Rebecca’s feeling that the man’s proposition was ‘creepy’ was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.
Damn. That joke didn’t turn out to be really very hilarious at all. Maybe I told it wrong?
In any case, as you might already know (or have gathered), this whole thing actually happened over the past weekend. The atheist chick in question is Rebecca Watson, a popular blogger who calls herself Skepchick. The conference in question was the Center for Inquiry’s Student Leadership Conference. The part of Richard Dawkins was played by, well, Richard Dawkins. (You can find both of his comments quoted here.)
The incident has been hashed and rehashed endlessly in the atheist-o-sphere (and even out of it), but I think it deserves a tiny bit more re-rehashing. Mainly because it illustrates that some really creepy, backwards attitudes can lurk deep in the hearts of dudes who think of themselves as enlightened, rational dudes fighting the evils of superstition and, yes, religious misogyny.
The strangest thing about the whole incident is how supremely mild Watson’s comments on the creepy elevator dude were. Here is literally all she said about him, in passing, in her video (transcribed here):
So I walk to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me and said, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’
Um, just a word to wise here, guys, uh, don’t do that. You know, I don’t really know how else to explain how this makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I’ll just sort of lay it out that I was a single woman, you know, in a foreign country, at 4:00 am, in a hotel elevator, with you, just you, and–don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.
That’s it. That’s the whole thing. You would think that most guys would be well aware that accosting a woman you’ve never met before in an elevator at 4 AM is, you know, kind of a no-no. But, no, Watson’s comments suddenly became an attack on male sexuality and men in general. One critic put up a video lambasting Watson, ending it with the question:
What effect do you think it has on men to be constantly told how sexist and destructive they are?
Never mind that she didn’t, you know, actually do that at all. Nor did she even remotely suggest, despite Dawkins’ weird screed, that creepy dudes on elevators were somehow equivalent to genital mutilation or the general denial of women’s rights in Islamist theocracies. She merely suggested that guys might want to think twice before hitting on women who are alone with them in an elevator at four in the morning. Pointing out the creepy behavior of one particular dude is not the same as calling all men creepy.
Now, the atheist movement tends to be a bit of a sausagefest, pervaded by some fairly backwards notions about women. (Prominent atheist pontificator Christopher Hitchens, you may recall, seems to sincerely believe that women just aren’t funny. Not that he’s exactly a barrel of monkeys himself.) But some of the most vociferous critics of Watson have been other atheist women – including the one I quoted above.
Watson responded to this in the first of several posts she wrote about the whole weird controversy:
I hear a lot of misogyny from skeptics and atheists, but when ancient anti-woman rhetoric like the above is repeated verbatim by a young woman online, it validates that misogyny in a way that goes above and beyond the validation those men get from one another. It also negatively affects the women who are nervous about being in similar situations. Some of them have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted, and some just don’t want to be put in that position. And they read these posts and watch these videos and they think, “If something were to happen to me and these women won’t stand up for me, who will?”
In a followup post, she noted:
When I started this site, I didn’t call myself a feminist. I had a hazy idea that feminism was a good thing, but it was something that other people worried about, not me. I was living in a time and culture that had transcended the need for feminism, because in my world we were all rational atheists who had thrown off our religious indoctrination so that I could freely make rape jokes without fear of hurting someone who had been raped.
And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.
Watson began hearing from other women in the skeptic/atheist community who’d met far too many of that second sort of male atheist.
They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door.
And then, as her blog garnered more attention, she faced a virtual invasion of creepy dudes being creepy:
I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.
She didn’t shut up.
So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.
Go read the rest of her post. Despite the creepy dudes and the misogyny and Richard Fucking Dawkins’ patronizing little screed – which led Watson to a moment of despair much like that of virtually every movie hero(ine) at the end of act two in the story arc – Watson ends it fairly hopeful. It’s kind of inspiring, really.
Posted on July 6, 2011, in creepy, feminism, hypocrisy, misogyny, oppressed men, patriarchy, rape, reactionary bullshit, sexual harassment, threats. Bookmark the permalink. 1,701 Comments.
Wow. He politely expressed an interest in her and asked her to have some coffee? What a misogynist creep. He should be jailed. Men are such beasts!
My guess – the guy wasn’t attractive. If he had been, she would’ve been recounting it the next day as an exotic adventure.
@ Ion: Watson herself seems like it wasn’t that big of a deal to her. It’s everyone else who’s turned this into a big deal, and that’s what she’s responding to, more than the initial incident.
That aside, I am intensely interested to know what Dawkins’ response would be if the setting to this story was different – say a Muslim woman and a Muslim man in an elevator in Tehran or Saudi Arabia.
Yeah, and she felt uncomfortable, and nonchalantly later said that it was creepy to her and that she wished guys wouldn’t do that. I’d feel uncomfortable with unwanted attention at 4AM in an elevator, too. It’s the reactionaries and critics that said “OMG ALL HE WANTED WAS TO TALK TO HER AND SHE SAID NO!!!”.
Ion, you are willfully missing the point, as are the rest of the people being angry or dismissive to Watson.
The point is not that elevator dude did something inherently bad, gross, threatening, creepy, or sexist. The point is not that elevator dude himself is bad, gross, threatening, creepy, or sexist.
The point is that elevator dude, probably unwittingly, did something which could make a reasonable woman uncomfortable–regardless of his actual intentions, and regardless of whether he actually presented any kind of danger to the woman.
All men should wish to avoid making women uncomfortable. Therefore, no men should do what elevator dude did.
This is really not that complicated.
Ion-he asked her to have coffee in his room at 4 AM and she never met him before. I can see why she would be creeped out. I would not be because I would be too busy laughing at him but that is my reaction and I am not Ms Watson.
I know I know, you assume that a woman is not allowed ever to be bothered by a strange man asking her to his hotel room at 4 in the morning. Of course you also would be first in line to blame her for her being raped had she actually said yes. You would say “of course she should have known he was a creep! He asked her to his hotel room at 4 in the morning.“
Hey, so what if some dude hit on some chick? That’s what chicks are for, ya know what I’m sayin?
BRO FIVE!
@ Ion: Watson herself seems like it wasn’t that big of a deal to her. It’s everyone else who’s turned this into a big deal, and that’s what she’s responding to, more than the initial incident.
All men should wish to avoid making women uncomfortable. Therefore, no men should do what elevator dude did.
Not commenting on Dawkins’ response, which was disproportionate IMO, but exactly what did the elevator guy do? Watson says she felt ‘creeped out’ and ‘sexualized’ by someone saying, and I quote: “‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?’”
Sometimes it just feels like there’s no hope for guys. No matter what you do, you’re a creep.
The point is not that elevator dude did something inherently bad, gross, threatening, creepy, or sexist. The point is not that elevator dude himself is bad, gross, threatening, creepy, or sexist.
Was he? Did you see him? Do you know him? Because I say you’re wrong and it’s just another case of a guy who politely tries to get a woman’s interest, only to be demonized and labeled a creep because she doesn’t find him attractive.
In all fairness, I personally would probably have not been creeped out by the proposition. We all know what ‘have a cup of coffee’ is a euphemism for, but it’s a fairly mild and inoffensive euphemism. It’s a lot nicer than ‘Wanna screw?’ As long as the guy in question was able to take my ‘Thanks, but no,’ with grace and dignity, I wouldn’t have really cared. As I see it, adults are allowed to ask, with no expectation of acceptance and an obligation to accept a decline with good manners (which includes not asking again or whining for reasons why, or accusations of ‘you don’t wanna sleep with me because i’m not an alpha!’)
However, that doesn’t mean that Watson should not or can not feel uncomfortable by the situation. It’s totally up to her, and there were probably some things about tone and body language and the fact that there is no escape from a moving elevator that made her nervous. He might have done better to give Watson his phone number. Just like the appropriate response to a ‘Thanks, but no’ is something along the lines of ‘Okay, have a nice night'; the appropriate response to ‘that was kind of creepy’ is not ‘you’re an awful, selfish person!’
To be honest it sounds like a very sleazy porn set up when I reverse the genders in my head.
*wonders if this makes her a bad person*
It’s amazing how great white male atheists are at pointing out Christian privilege in North American society, when male privilege is absolutely invisible.
Oh, wait, it’s not amazing, it’s absolutely to be expected.
Because just because you don’t believe in God doesn’t mean that you don’t think that you’re entitlted to women’s time, attention, and bodies.
Good for Rebecca for putting herself in the way of the shitstorm on this one.
I always thought “come to my room for a cup of coffee” was an euphemism for sex. It was when I went to college. o.O
only to be demonized and labeled a creep because she doesn’t find him attractive.
Sometimes, the hottest guy in the world can act like a creep – which makes him unattractive.
@ Molly: It still is, at least as of a few years ago when I used it on a date dropping me off at home. There was indeed coffee, but it wasn’t till the next morning ;)
The last part doesn’t make sense because I misread a comment. Let me try again:
The point is not that elevator dude did something inherently bad, gross, threatening, creepy, or sexist. The point is not that elevator dude himself is bad, gross, threatening, creepy, or sexist.
The point is that elevator dude, probably unwittingly, did something which could make a reasonable woman uncomfortable–regardless of his actual intentions, and regardless of whether he actually presented any kind of danger to the woman.
Ok, he unwittingly did something which made her uncomfortable. He expressed polite interest and asked her to have a cup of coffee (which apparently now is sexualizing and creepy), but whatever. Let’s assume something in his tone, his posture or whatever was threatening. It happens. But now suddenly this guy has all but been accused of rape, while Watson is a victim. This is a non-story that shouldn’t have blown up like this.
I mean, Ion would have a point if IT WASN’T IN AN ELEVATOR AT 4 AM and it didn’t involve their BEDROOM. Like, tweeting them the next day to ask if they’d want to go to Starbucks or talking to them at a quiet moment during the day would have been perfectly acceptable. :P
I can see why she would be creeped out. I would not be because I would be too busy laughing at him
Somehow I’m not surprised.
“But now suddenly this guy has all but been accused of rape, while Watson is a victim.”
Um, no. He was accused of having bad Game is all. ;)
While everything looks fine right now, I’m going to go ahead and predict that this conversation goes nowhere good. Also, Richard Dawkins is an ass.
If you do creepy things like waiting for someone to be alone in an enclosed space with you before sexually propositioning them, that usually leads people to think you’re creepy.
But hey, I’m not without compassion or anything. I’ll even be helpful to all you oppressed manly men out there. I have the perfect way to keep women from seeing you as creeps:
Don’t fucking well do creepy things around them or to them. You’re welcome.
Of course I guess I’m just an emasculated mangina lap dog because I think following some stranger on to an elevator and hitting them up for sex is a terrible approach.
@katz There’s a thread on here that ends well? Where? :P
“But now suddenly this guy has all but been accused of rape, while Watson is a victim. This is a non-story that shouldn’t have blown up like this.”
And by “all but accused of rape”, presumably you mean “not accused by Watson of anything like rape in any way, shape or form”. Talk about blowing things out of proportion.
What the fuck is it with men who think women automatically owe them every courtesy in every possible situation? What a bunch of whiny, entitled babies.
This conversation is weird since Happiness is a Warm Gun just came on my Pandora.
And Ion, of course you are not surprised-I find men trying to proposition me at 4 in the morning amusing. Of course if 13 is asking me the laughing is more like flirty giggles then “oh my god, really? hahahahah!”
I mean, Ion would have a point if IT WASN’T IN AN ELEVATOR AT 4 AM and it didn’t involve their BEDROOM
What was she doing riding elevators at 4 in the morning? I didn’t think the late hour was an issue because my impression was that they’d both just left the bar and were heading to their rooms. This is why he said coffee in his room. I honestly never read it as a sexual invitation, but what do I know. Maybe the guy was leering and drooling and grabbing his crotch as he said it.
Noted atheist PZ Myers gets it.
He gets it good.
He gets it real good.
“What was she doing riding elevators at 4 in the morning?”
Being a whore, obviously!
Seriously, tho, she does add “don’t invite me back to your hotel room right after I finish talking about how it creeps me out and makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner”. Lady just wanted to go up to her room to get some sleep already. :P
If you do creepy things like waiting for someone to be alone in an enclosed space with you before sexually propositioning them, that usually leads people to think you’re creepy.
So now he deliberately waited for her to get in the elevator so they’d be alone together before he unleashed his coffee-equals-sex metaphor! After he’d no doubt been stalking her the entire night, filled with unholy lust! Man, this just gets more interesting. What a hypothetical sleazebag.
And by “all but accused of rape”, presumably you mean “not accused by Watson of anything like rape in any way, shape or form”. Talk about blowing things out of proportion.
No, she just referred to his behaviour as creepy and sexualizing. The commenters did the rest.
What the fuck is it with men who think women automatically owe them every courtesy in every possible situation? What a bunch of whiny, entitled babies.
Not being recoiled at in disgust and being labeled a creep for asking someone to have coffee with you is now being ‘owed every courtesy’? Hmm.
Molly: Way to take the first sentence out of context and ignore what I said right after it.
“So now he deliberately waited for her to get in the elevator so they’d be alone together before he unleashed his coffee-equals-sex metaphor!”
Well, yeah. I dunno about the unholy stalking bit, tho.
C’mon, Ion, if you were in an elevator at 4am in the morning and a girl asked you up to her room for coffee, would you not feel that *something* innuendo-y was going on?
Ion apparently thinks that the fact that they’re going from a bar to their rooms makes it less creepy.
“Molly: Way to take the first sentence out of context and ignore what I said right after it.”
It was funny, tho. XD
If he had asked her to have coffee at a coffee shop you would be correct Ion.
But he asked to have coffee with her in his hotel room.
Ion, no no no no.
Watson did not saying that elevator dude was threatening, or did something bad, or should be punish.
She said that she wished he had not done what he did, and wishes that other men would not do what he did.
That’s it. That’s all.
If Watson or any other feminist wanted elevator dude tarred and feathered, they would have said so. They did not say that. No one has demonize of slandered elevator dude in any way.
Geez.
Wait, you mean all those women inviting me to their rooms for coffee were actually propositioning me? Well, hell, if I’d known that, I wouldn’t have turned them all down.
It turns out that not being a coffee drinker has a hidden down side.
I would just like to assure all Man Boobz readers that Ion is in fact a real person (to the best of my knowledge) and not a sockpuppet I’ve invented to basically prove my point by reacting to my post the exact same way that various idiots reacted to Watson’s video, right down to the “OMG this women is all but accusing a man of rape.”
(Hint: she did not all but or even partially but accuse him of rape.)
Ion, yes, he did wait for her to be alone in the lift. He and shr had both been part of a chatting group for hours but he had not spoken directly to her until that point. He had plenty of opportunity to strike up a conversation in a manner less likely to scare her.
And do stop pretending that “come to my hotel room for coffee” isn’t likely to be taken as a sexual proposition. Her hotel room had coffee. The lounge she was just leaving had coffee. She had just said she wanted to go to sleep. Coffee does not help one to sleep. She was neither in need of coffee nor at all likely to want any.
What was she doing riding elevators at 4 in the morning?
Exactly. Next thing we’ll be hearing, it’s all her fault for thinking she could ride an elevator in her hotel and not get propositioned. I mean, really. She was basically asking for it, wasn’t she?
Seriously, though, the major point is that maybe this guy could have had a chance … if he hadn’t propositioned her where and when and how he did. Tell her that he’ll be at X bar tomorrow night, give her his number and say “I hope you’ll call me sometime,” anything to make it clear that he isn’t looking for sex right then. Because if his goal was to make her like him and consent to sex then he f**king failed.
As was said upthread, no one’s saying he did anything evil. Just that he did something creepy, and if his goal was to not appear creepy, he should take a different approach.
All this talk about elevators and not one MRAL reference.
“So now he deliberately waited for her to get in the elevator so they’d be alone together before he unleashed his coffee-equals-sex metaphor! After he’d no doubt been stalking her the entire night, filled with unholy lust! Man, this just gets more interesting. What a hypothetical sleazebag.”
Nope, he just put his desire to get laid over his situational awareness. I know that doesn’t sound nearly as cool as your hyperbolic blathering, but that’s the long and short of it. He didn’t spare a second to consider how the whole setup might look, how it might make her feel trapped or intimidated or even just uneasy. Considerate people think about things like that, because thinking really isn’t that fucking hard and if you’re not going to use that lump of meat and bone at the top of your spine for anything but a hat rack, that’s your problem. So less “hypothetical sleazebag”, more “clueless and possibly self-centered dolt”.
“No, she just referred to his behaviour as creepy and sexualizing. The commenters did the rest.”
Ever think that’s how his behavior made her feel?
“Not being recoiled at in disgust and being labeled a creep for asking someone to have coffee with you is now being ‘owed every courtesy’? Hmm.”
I must’ve missed the part where she said she “recoiled in disgust”. She politely turned him down and then expressed her feelings on the whole thing without once identifying him. The poor dear, his life must be fucking ruined. How dare she talk about him at all on her own blog, the nerve.
PZ’s post about being a decent human being is great.
And really, straight guys should just pay attention and realize that they are getting good, free dating advice from women. Being propositioned in an elevator seems to be pretty much regarded as an unappealing tactic, whether women are saying they’d feel creeped out or whether they’re saying they’d laugh in his face. So there’s really no point to it. End of story.
What? I don’t get it. Why is this any different to any other girl turning down a guy for any reason? Is it because they’re atheists? That makes no sense. Did I miss something?
Amnesia, now you’ve jinxed it! :P
The thing that I find odd about this whole kerfuffle is the guys yelling “give Lift Creep the benefit of the doubt!” Because that’s *exactly what Watson did*.
The kindest interpretation of his behaviour is that he was clueless but well-meaning, didn’t realise he could come across as threatening in any way, and would certainly not have wanted to scare anyone.
The kindest action Watson could take given this kind interpretation was to gently and without naming names explain how the incident made her feel so he could avoid inadvertently scaring anyone else. That’s what she did.
As an aside, I do not get why our supposed champions of masculinity are such delicate little hothouse flowers that they can’t even take this kind of mild criticism. Seriously, grow some fucking backbone, knock off all this “Eeeeee! Can’t be seen buying tampons! Can’t be seen liking girly things! She said bad things about me, life is ruined now!” nonsense and maybe I might start taking this “manly tough manly man” shite seriously instead of just laughing at you.
Just, um, try not to be hurt if I don’t stop laughing.
C’mon, Ion, if you were in an elevator at 4am in the morning and a girl asked you up to her room for coffee, would you not feel that *something* innuendo-y was going on?
I’d think I was gonna wake up in a bathtub full of ice the next day with my kidneys missing, that’s what. But still, a “no thanks, I’m tired/going to bed/whatever” should suffice, no?
Simone – That’s basically what I’ve been saying. Unfortunately, I have to blame Watson for starting up the shitstorm. If she’d simply said this guy’s approach made her uncomfortable, it would’ve stopped there. But she referred to it as sexualizing and creepy. Guys get this all the time, sometimes no matter how polite or considerate they try to be, and it was the ‘creep’ label which felt overly harsh and set people off, I think.
Regarding PZ Myers’ articles, the problems I have with them are that 1) He seems to expect people to be telepathic and know exactly what the other person is thinking and feeling before approaching them; 2) Assumes that the hypothetical object of your affection has perfect judgement and if you are rejected, there must be something wrong with you, and 3) He never takes into consideration the fact that the ‘creep’ label might not be warranted, assuming instead that it’s always 100% true.
Maybe she should have just hocked a big ol’ loogie.
Elevator guy should have said “I like my coffee like I like my women: hot and strong and with a spoon in them.”
Oh no, they would be bitching about her saying she felt uncomfortable too.
And covered in beeeeeeeeees!
/Izzard
“C’mon, Ion, if you were in an elevator at 4am in the morning and a girl asked you up to her room for coffee, would you not feel that *something* innuendo-y was going on?
“I’d think I was gonna wake up in a bathtub full of ice the next day with my kidneys missing, that’s what. But still, a “no thanks, I’m tired/going to bed/whatever” should suffice, no?”
And how is a “no thanks” any different than her stated reaction? And why are you making such a big deal about how we’re critiquing the guy’s proposition when YOU’D be made nervous in a similar situation?
I just realised this-when Ion said he thinks something bad would happen if someone asked that, it means he was creeped out just like Ms Watson was.
To reiterate what Molly said-what exactly then is your problem?
If the hotel had a pool, they could have done splashy splashy.
Oh bullshit. You don’t need to be telepathic to realize that not saying a single word in conversation to someone all evening but then following them somewhere without anyone around where they have limited options for exit before asking them if they want to go back to your room might come across as being creepy. She was as polite as she needed to be in turning him down. That’s all the consideration she owes anybody, possibly more consideration than she owes anybody. She definitely doesn’t owe anybody her complete and utter silence on the matter.
After Katz’s earlier comment, I’m never saying yes to a coffee offer again. I might wake up in my bedroom the next day with a spoon in me.
And there’s your MRAL reference.
I just realised this-when Ion said he thinks something bad would happen if someone asked that, it means he was creeped out just like Ms Watson was.
She just thought he was sexualizing her. Ion thinks the guy might have intended to harvest organs for the black market. Seriously.
A stranger offering me coffee in his hotel room is no different than a stranger offering me candy in his van.
Geez, since when is “creepy” the worlds greatest insult, on par with a rape accusation? It’s like “ew” or “heebie jeebies”. It’s not good, but it’s really not THAT BAD either.
“Ion thinks the guy might have intended to harvest organs for the black market. Seriously.”
But that’s no reason to nearly accuse the guy of rape! He could have lost 10 years of his life to jail!
“Would you like to come back to my room with me and show me your organs?”
Nope, he just put his desire to get laid over his situational awareness. I know that doesn’t sound nearly as cool as your hyperbolic blathering, but that’s the long and short of it. He didn’t spare a second to consider how the whole setup might look, how it might make her feel trapped or intimidated or even just uneasy. *long-winded insults snipped*
Again, you just make the assumption that he wanted to ‘get laid’ as opposed to talk and have coffee. Ok, let’s assume you are right. Is it wrong to be sexually interested in someone? Let’s say no. So then it was his approach that was wrong, but he wasn’t aware of it. Tough shit, that’s how the world works. Do you walk around on eggshells every day, constantly trying to read everyone around you, for fear of – ye gods – possibly offending someone or making someone uncomfortable? Is the thought of “we’re all basically adults and we can communicate and deal with all kinds of shit without needing to treat each other with kid gloves” completely foreign to you? And don’t you think it’s a little misogynist to assume women are simply unable to do this, and need special treatment and protection?
As an aside, I do not get why our supposed champions of masculinity are such delicate little hothouse flowers that they can’t even take this kind of mild criticism. Seriously, grow some fucking backbone, knock off all this “Eeeeee! Can’t be seen buying tampons! Can’t be seen liking girly things! She said bad things about me, life is ruined now!” nonsense and maybe I might start taking this “manly tough manly man” shite seriously instead of just laughing at you.
Huh? Was that directed at me? Not sure what you’re blathering about but it sounds like a fountain that’s been waiting to erupt for a while, there…
MissPrism: Referring to the guy as a creep after a basically innocent, polite proposal was enough. There isn’t really a female equivalent, but imagine if a guy said something like “So this fat cow asked me up to her room tonight, can you imagine? Yech.” Would you still defend him just because he didn’t name her?
Yeah, Ion! Give hypothetical Elevator Girl the benefit of the doubt! She had that scalpel for a papercutting project and the ice bucket was for champagne. Are women just never supposed to talk to men at all if you look at us all as potential organ stealers blah blah blah drone blah bore.
Elevator guy should have said “I like my coffee like I like my women: hot and strong and with a spoon in them.”
You mean “hot, black and first thing in the morning”? ;)
Sorry, Ion, joke fail.
“Do you walk around on eggshells every day, constantly trying to read everyone around you, for fear of – ye gods – possibly offending someone or making someone uncomfortable?”
No. You make a mistake, you learn from it, you get on with your life. THAT’S how the world works =P
So then it was his approach that was wrong, but he wasn’t aware of it. Tough shit, that’s how the world works.
Kind of exactly our point. But now, hypothetically, he IS aware of it and can up his game next time. Sweet. Win-win.
Katz, if they’d been in THIS elevator they could have done splashy splashy without bothering to go to the pool:
It never fails. The conversation always has to go over why it really was creepy before progressing to the point that the REAL sexism here is in the reaction to Rebecca’s throwaway mention to the incident: i.e. “How DARE this woman tell us enlightened men how to behave! It’s an infringement on my First Amendment Penis!”
She was not complaining because the guy was ugly. If she had been, my opinion of her and the Fat Cow Man you’ve postulated would be the same – Fat Vow Man and Ugly Bloke Girl are being rude and nasty about someone who does not deserve it.
If a woman made a man feel objectified or fear assault, my opinion of her and of Elevator Guy would be the same. Both are at best clueless and need to think more about how to make overtures in a better context – both out of basic decency and because it’s much more likely to work.
See? In both cases, the sex of the propositioner is not the issue.
Oh bullshit. You don’t need to be telepathic to realize that not saying a single word in conversation to someone all evening but then following them somewhere without anyone around where they have limited options for exit before asking them if they want to go back to your room might come across as being creepy.
Wait, were you there with them? You seem to know an awful lot of details – more than Watson revealed, even – which sound plausible and totally not pulled out of your ass to support a tenuous straw man. I mean, I interpreted the “I’d like to talk more” line as meaning that they’d already had some interaction, but apparently in your imagination this guy is already Freddy Krueger.
I just realised this-when Ion said he thinks something bad would happen if someone asked that, it means he was creeped out just like Ms Watson was.
She just thought he was sexualizing her. Ion thinks the guy might have intended to harvest organs for the black market. Seriously.
ehh… sarcasm isn’t your strong suit, is it? There I go, overestimating your reading comprehension again.