Amanda Marcotte on the Thomas Ball suicide, and MRA haters
Amanda Marcotte, feminist blogger and Friend of Man Boobz, has been taking a lot of shit from MRAs – and I mean a LOT of shit – for a comment she made here on the Thomas Ball suicide.
As you may already know, Ball burned himself to death outside a New Hampshire courthouse. In a lengthy manifesto he wrote shortly before killing himself, he portrayed his suicide as a protest against a corrupt family court system, and went on to argue that MRAs should quite literally assemble some Molotov cocktails and “start burning down police stations and courthouses.” (You can read the whole manifesto here.) Despite his calls for violence many MRAs have hailed him as an MRA martyr.
Marcotte, in her comment here, suggested that there might have been other, more personal reasons for his suicide – namely, the desire to hurt his ex-wife:
I’ll point out that setting yourself on fire is an extremely effective tool if your goal is to make your ex-wife’s life a living hell, and if your anger at losing control over her overwhelms all other desires. Which is common enough with abusers, who will ruin their own lives and their own shit and turn their children against them in an effort to hurt the woman they’ve fixated on.
One MR blogger declared this comment “pure feminist evil”; a conservative blogger compared Marcotte to the Beast of Babylon. Still other MRAs resorted to assorted variations on the c-word.
Marcotte has now responded to this, er, “criticism” with an excellent post on Pandagon. As she points out, correctly,
suicide and threats of suicide are common tactics used by abusers to hurt their victims. Abusers dramatically self-destruct all the time in their desperation to control and hurt the objects of their obsession. There was just recently a big story about this, in fact: Jason Valdez of Utah, who had a long criminal record that included domestic violence, held a woman hostage in a hotel room for 16 hours and kept updates about the situation on Facebook. He eventually committed suicide.
The notion that suicide can be a hostile, aggressive act designed to hurt other people is hardly a controversial one, whether the person committing suicide is male or female. Threats of suicide are often used to manipulate other people; suicide itself can be an act of revenge.
Marcotte goes on:
Apparently, I’m supposed to pretend that suicide isn’t a disruptive, selfish act in many cases (especially when the suicide victim commits it in a public and destructive way), and that people who do it, while yes victims of their own mental health problems, are also thinking that they’re going to make everyone pay for not indulging them. In fact, not only is this true in Ball’s case, but he spelled it out in his suicide note. The “make the bastards suffer” theme of his note is the reason that wingnuts are supporting him.
But you don’t have to take her word for it. Read Ball’s entire manifesto, to the end, and ask yourself if this man is an appropriate “martyr” for any political movement.
Posted on June 27, 2011, in antifeminism, misogyny, MRA, oppressed men, threats, violence against men/women. Bookmark the permalink. 436 Comments.
@desipis
Well, generally, telling yourself that all your problems are the fault of everyone else around you and that your only options for dealing with it are through violence doesn’t help any situation.
By the way, I’ve been offline for two weeks cause our modem got fried during a storm, but I’m back now, if anybody missed me.
Ball’s writings sounded a lot like the ramblings of our own NWO. Perhaps it’s a generational thing?
I missed you, Ariel! =D
@NWO:
Your first link seems to be an opinion piece. When the law deals with sexual harassment, it must necessarily include things like sex jokes, staring, etc, because these things, when kept up constantly, are harrassment. Of course, you and others like you take one look at it and say “Oh, well guys can be jailed for just looking at a woman now.” Like I’ve said before, you heartily enjoy steamrolling over nuance.
The second link contains two stats: “92% of mothers feel “overwhelmed” and 70% resent their husbands.” But then a chart appears (at the beginning of the video):
Working Moms
24% feel overwhelmed
70% feel resentful
29% do most of the work (clarified as “most of the parenting and household work”)
Alright… so there is n reason given why the women feel resentful, and only 29% of respondents claim they do most of the parenting and household work (not total work, overall). Honestly? Those numbers seem pretty reasonable. I don’t know where the resentful stat is coming from, it isn’t explained.
When Glenn first starts speaking, a graphic comes up from the “Pew Research Center” showing that married mothers consistantly put in more hours of child care than fathers. Alison hardly backpedaled (she never claimed that the poll represented the truth of all women), she clarified that it the poll was certainly from a woman’s perspective, but that the perspective was important to get a dialog going between husbands and wives. She even admits that some mothers have a “martyr complex,” where they feel like they are doing all the work but never ask for help. Her organization coaches mothers on that very thing. Alison is interested in being balanced, Glenn is grinding an axe.
Your last link is a petition. Why you call it an article, or cite quotes from it as if it were a source, is beyond me.
@Sarah:
O___O
^___^
I want cookies! Cookies are tasty!
I cannot eat cookies. Why are you feminist always oppressing me?
Howdy, I am a very occasional poster but a loyal lurker. I just wanna say, a propos of nothing in particular, that Ami Angelwings is not only a genius, but also adorable and amazing, and I wish I could bake her a delicious pie of her choice. Because pie!
@Bee:
Awww… Would you like some of the [insert favorite snack here] I just made?
Thank you! I looooooooove [favorite snack]! You feminist are the best! Thanks, kirbywarp!
Also: BigKitty, you are correct.
I don’t think Amanda Marcotte is particularly hostile or sneering; I just don’t think MRAs are used to women talking to them like that.
Firstly, are you kidding? MRAs get roasted in the most vile ways imaginable on pretty much every feminist blog. They’re mocked and insulted and pissed on. Since feminists are mostly women, I’m pretty sure they’ve become accustomed to it.
Secondly, I’ve heard that line (from Marcotte herself and a few others) and I’m sorry for the language, but all I can say is bullshit. She (or at least, her blog-self) has a very prominent underlying meanness, nastiness, and rudeness, at least when she runs into something she disagrees with or someone she dislikes. It’s not just MRAs, either, it’s any “opposing force”. Did you read her comments on the Duke case? I’m not applauding those guys, clearly there were bad decisions all around, but she was literally calling for them to be clapped in irons without a trial (and in the process made some pretty misandrist statements).
Even though they have comparable views and are similar in many ways, I would far rather listen to Jessica Valenti speak than Marcotte. I don’t think anybody can accuse Valenti of pandering or “what about the menz”-ing, she is fairly hardcore with the feminist thing. I disagree with a hell of a lot of what she says, because I don’t really like third-wave feminism. But she’s also, for the most part, not needlessly sarcastic and mean when it comes to anyone who doesn’t completely toe the line with feminist rhetoric.
Oh my God, you’re right! I forgot that a woman’s primary role in life was to be pleasant.
This is the type of hypersensitivity that discredits feminism. No one likes an unpleasant person, male or female. No one likes to feel talked down to, or insulted, or demeaned, even if the speaker makes good points. Obama is hailed as a great orator not because of what he actually says (a great many liberals have said it all before him) but for how he says it. Or are women supposed to be exempt from petty concerns such as being polite? That doesn’t sound like feminism to me.
I don’t hate Amanda Marcotte. I’m sure she’s a fine person in real life. But I can’t say I like her writing. It’s weird, she comes across as a radfem (ie, short-tempered, intolerant, and unthinkingly misandrist) except she doesn’t actually hold radical feminist views.
PS- I thought the post linked to in the OP was pretty okay for Marcotte, and I actually agree with her views on Ball. I’m speaking generally.
@Sarah
Aw, shucks. Oh, and I will have a cookie.
I would totally bake a pie for Bee, too. And Kirby. You can’t have too many pies, IMHO.
Cookies for everyone! Yay! I should probably make more bread soon… Then we can have fresh baked bread as well!
hmm… NWO doesn’t like responding when he’s proved wrong.. does he?
@BigKitty:
Could it be… a chocolate pie? Cause that would make you at the very least the second best person on the planet.
Kirrby: He doesn’t like to answer my questions either, even though I answer his.
He answers women’s questions, but not mine.
Typical Misandrist. Women =worth talking too, Men =not worth talking to.
@Kirby – You betcha.
And FYI, all good pie-lovers, here’s the ultimate source: Mr. Tod’s Pie Factory! https://www.whybake.com/index.cfm
Bee, would it help if I mixed the cookie with milk so it got all slushy and you could suck it up through your proboscis?
*passes out cookies to everyone else*
@Pecunium he doesn’t answer my questions either xD (he’s learned his lesson xD ) women = good men = bad angels = run the f away
XD
@BigKitty awww :3 <3 I should bake YOU a pie! :D (or pumpkin bread! I bake a mean pumpkin bread :3 )
Sarah: YES! Everything should be sweet and made into a slurry. Or powdery, so I can pick it up with my furry legs and bring it back to my hive.
(See why I’m a feminist?)
@Ami – I luurrrve pumpkin bread! Multiple hugz to you if they’re welcome – you are awesome, funny and brilliant.
And thanks, BigKitty, for the pie offer! I’ll settle for a pet and an ear scritch. I love a big kitty!
@Michigan:
So you spend an entire post explaining how Marcotte is so mean to MRAs, and such a nasty, unpleasent person, and she really should keep her tone in check… Then say that the actual OP quotes aren’t that bad for her? And don’t even bother talking about the OP’s links to the MRA’s responses, calling her the “beast of babylon” and “pure feminist evil?”
Sorry for the language, but I call bullshit. What is your point, that although this particular example of Marcotte is not bad, everything else she writes is hateful… so… what? The MRAs are justified? What are you getting at?
“I don’t think Amanda Marcotte is particularly hostile or sneering; I just don’t think MRAs are used to women talking to them like that.”
This quote, to me, refers to Marcottes quoted posts, not all of her other writing. Perhaps MRAs are used to abuse, but does that excuse their response?
@Bee, I absolutely understand why you’re a feminist now. I just wish I was a better one. Nothing sticks to my furry legs, other then tape. And I can’t feed tape to my larva. =[
@ Bee: Prrrrr, prrrrr, prrrr. I love a sweet honeybee, too – and so should everyone. Bees are among the most precious animals in the whole ecosystem of Earth! Yay Bees!
Since the desserts have been taken care of, may I offer everyone some soup? It’s got artichokes and potatoes and garlic . . .
That sounds pretty damn good. I’ll take some soup.
@ Hippodameia – could you share the recipe? Sounds so delicious! I love you already.
He did some other fairly creepy things and my mom (who is prone to overreacting a LOT) told me that you can’t continue talking to stalkers because it gives them fuel to keep stalking. So I stopped talking to him suddenly. But was still in homeroom with him, which was fucking awkward. (Homeroom was the same for 4 years, but he was a year younger so I only had to deal with the awkwardness for almost 3 years …)
You sound like a real jackass, honestly. I mean he obviously handled it poorly but were you basically giving him the silent treatment? That’s pretty rude.
Adding a big platter of barbacued chicken (not barbacue sauce, basted with lemon butter) to the potluck! I saw grills on sale today and went a little charcoal crazy!
Thank you! *blush*
1 can quartered artichoke hearts (usually 13.75 oz)
3 cloves garlic, chopped
1 Tbls butter
1 baking potato, peeled and diced
4 cups vegtable stock (Knorr Vegtable Bullion is good)
Salt and Pepper to taste
In a large, heavy frying pan over medium heat, saute the artichoke hearts and garlic. Don’t brown them; just let them turn golden.
Add the diced potato and stock, bring to a boil, and then lower the heat. Cover the pan and simmer until the artichokes and potatoes are tender. This should take about ten minutes, but nothing bad will happen if it simmers longer.
In a blender or food processor, puree the vegtables with some of the liquid from the soup. If the veggies are remaining stubbornly whole, add more liquid.
Return the veggies to the frying pan, stir to mix, and heat through. Add the salt and pepper and serve.
This recipe is from “The Vegetarian Bistro” by Marlena Spieler. I’ve modified it a bit, mostly by reducing the butter from three tablespoons to one. (It tastes really good with three tablespoons, though!) I really like the recipe because it cooks quickly and with some bread it makes a nice dinner.
Enjoy!
@MRAL – you’re right, some element of rudeness has obviously occurred. Wow, what a horrible tragedy. Holy moly. I bet you, or one of your MRA loser-knights might have actually. . . felt offended!!! OMG! It’s just like the Holocaust!
@BigKitty:
Hup, you’ve done it now… You’ve Godwinned us all. *tsk tsk* No soup for you!
Lemon butter? Yummy!
“Holy moly. I bet you, or one of your MRA loser-knights might have actually. . . felt offended!!!”
This is the type of hypersensitivity that discredits MRAs.
A friend of my daughter’s found her father hanging in their basement.
He’s dead, she has to live with that image ingrained in her memory for the rest of her life. Anyone that doesn’t understand that suicide leaves victims in it’s path has no idea of human nature.
You sound like a real jackass, honestly. I mean he obviously handled it poorly but were you basically giving him the silent treatment? That’s pretty rude.
What’s ruder, a woman ignoring a man for stalking her; or a woman who refuses to observe a man’s social boundaries and insists on social contact?
What’s ruder, a man ignoring a woman stalking him, or a man who refuses to observe a woman’s social boundaries and insists on unwanted contact?
Newsflash: Stalkers thrive on etiquette. They manipulate their targets, forever dancing on the boundary between acceptable and unacceptable. They want to manipulate the situation so their target seems like the rude one for not taking his call. If you tell a stalker “Please stop contacting me,” they won’t listen. They won’t take you seriously. They’ll continually pester you for “reasons” and “closure” and try and talk you out of not talking to them. They want their victims to be ‘nice’, because they can exploit that niceness and get what they want – attention. Kind of like you, actually.
So, yeah, the only way to avoid a stalker is to not give them anything.Because a stalker doesn’t actually give a shit about the person they’re stalking. They don’t care about that person’s comfort or desires or boundaries. So, tell me, why *shouldn’t* that person be cut off?
@BigKitty:
Don’t worry, I’ll share my soup with you!
And yay! Manboobz potluck! =D
@MRAL:
You are making judgments on situation we know very little about. Even if she was rude to him, that dosen’t warrant his attempted manipulation through suicide threat.
Suicide is very, very serious business to me.
Of course BigKitty can have soup! :-)
Posting to say I literally cannot stop laughing at that mouthpussy quote Futrelle posted about a page ago.
Stalkers thrive on etiquette.
Yeah, but it’s their own twisted version of etiquette. If I say, “Do not contact me” and a person continues to, they’re being the rude assholes (not to mention dangerous). I’ve found that only rude assholes use “etiquette” and “politeness” to mean “you will do whatever the fuck I want”. Saying “no” isn’t rude, until you say it to an asshole – then you’ve committed the biggest crime against politeness there ever was, complete with ranting and tears. Tantrums won’t get you anywhere after you’re six. If you’re 36, it’s just sad.
Many of the critics of Amanda Marcotte know her from her writing, and her time on Bloggingheads. She’s hardly a thinker – a writer, yes, but not much of a thinker. Her man-hatred is legendary, and most can see through her by now. That’s why so many are laying into her:
Like Andrew Sullivan’s obsession with Sarah Palin’s womb, you’ve got to leave a trail for the unsuspecting, so they’ll have a reference before accepting a word Amanda says.
Wow – looking at this thread, and considering the other one, you guys ARE weird.
Does it ever occur to you, that you COULD afford to learn something, rather than engaging in this round-robin of insanity, where, for instance, tortured *dead* men are less hurt than the living?
MRAL: I had to deal with a stalker once. He was stalking a housemate of ours (I was still living with my folks). She wanted nothing to do with him anymore. He’d been told not to come to our house.
He did. When we wouldn’t let him in the front door he started to go around the back of the house.
Long story short, the interaction ended with me pointing a loaded rifle at his chest. He didn’t come back again. Now that’s what counts as rude. Not talking to someone; might be rude.
Stalking, beyond rude.
@The Crack Emcee
Unfortunately, they’ve been head-patted too many times in this blog, and presumably elsewhere, by men like Pecunium, to believe that they might need to learn anything at all. When you have these erudite men who claim a certain status in life basically saying “no, the first thought that rattled through your ridiculous mind is acceptable”, you get this type of self-indulgent, self-satisfied ignorance. These are women who have never had a man tell them “no” in their lives, or criticize them when they’re wrong or stupid. This is what our society is becoming.
@chocominties,
Yup, I knew one of those in my high school too…Unfortunately, our conversation was not online, and this guy ended up grabbing my breast and becoming really threatening, but always implying he might commit suicide if people stayed away from him.
@MRAL,
So was I also rude when I eventually gave him the silent treatment? Should I have talked to him when he asked me to, even though I had already been polite even a little after he grabbed my breast, and that politeness is what made him think he could get away with sexually assaulting me in the first place?
@Alex MRAL thinks that any woman who doesn’t talk to any guy at any time is “spitting” on them :\ this shouldn’t be a surprise -_-;;
lol Sometimes, I’m just interested to see how he’ll spin it. Probably because every once in a while he says something really surprising that then renews my hope that he’ll one day be a good person.
So, the results from my beer tasting last night are finally in! Here are the obscure craft beers I deemed best from my sample size of 11:
Green Flash Brewing Company Double Stout Black Ale
Scuttlebutt Tripel 7 Belgian Ale
Moo Thunder Farmhouse Ale (Stout)
Bear Republic Racer 5 IPA
You should all go try them, and I’ll try to bring some to the next Manboobz potluck!
(I know no one here actually cares about me and my beer. But that’s ok. I’m going to keep posting about them because it pleases me.)
@The Crack:
When someone’s dead their pain is over. I concern myself with the living and their pain.
*aMiRA:
You know, that’s a very paternalistic and infantile attitude toward women. Women are full adult humans, who can take responsibility for ourselves. And I have had plenty of people criticize me in plenty of different ways. Why is a man’s criticism more important then a woman’s, anyway?
@Sarah
There’s the misandry again. “Paternalistic”? You label any criticism that you want to just dismiss as paternalistic or “mansplaining” or some other way where it doesn’t matter because you think it is related to men. Nice.
Princess, you do know that “those shoes totally don’t match that dress!” isn’t the kind of criticism I was talking about right? Did I say that a man’s criticism is more important than a woman’s by the way? Good job putting words in my mouth, as usual. I didn’t say it was MORE important, but women tend to coddle other women, they tend to pull back, it’s just part of the way your brains work. Men tell it like it is, and they don’t hold back. If you actually had a real man in your life, either as a father who didn’t give you a credit card on your 12th birthday or a boyfriend who you couldn’t wrap around you pinky finger, you’d understand the difference, and you would be a responsible, mature adult now instead of a spoiled brat princess.
Sarah: If you like the Racer IPA, you might want to look for Bridgeport IPA. It’s probably the best IPA I’ve had.
Naah, I prefer Magyc cards and imaginary soup.
or imaginary cards and Magyc soup!
Was it rude when he grabbed my friend in the hall (she didn’t know him and could only describe him) asking if she was my friend, then claimed he never did any such thing? Oh, probably not. After all, it was a male doing it to a female.
The great thing about homeroom was that there wasn’t even a single opportunity to speak to anyone. So the “silent treatment” was all online. And no, I don’t think it was rude. He did the weird thing to my friend and figured out where I lived (among more minor weirdness). I think cutting off contact was the nicest way I could have handled that. And I still had to deal with a barrage of IMs after. For a long time. And Happy Birthdays … which I don’t know how he found that out either. And wearing a black trenchcoat on the Valentine’s Day right after Columbine …
Later I had a way more stalkery stalker (not a lovesick 14 yo, but a guy 12 years older than me). I told him to stop talking to me, and … predictable situation is predictable. But he never threatened to kill himself. He just never stopped with the “woe is me, no one understaaaaands meee” stuff. And I was 20 and dealing with a serious illness and living in a foreign country, so it got real old REAL quick. Of course, Mr. Al probably thinks I should have played therapist. (Took 5 years for him to stop “accidentally” finding new email addresses and such. So yeah … that’s how well it works when you ask.)
@aMiRA:
Yeah, what you were saying is pretty much the definition of a paternalistic attitude toward women. About how we have never had a man say no to us? That’s something a *father* should be doing to a child. Not Pecunium, or any other man. And that you think he should is paternalistic.
What you are saying is just silly. You did imply that men’s criticism was more important, by not mentioning women criticizing other women. Also, you just did, just there in your post, say that men’s criticism is more important. Plus I know plenty of women who “tell it like it is” and plenty of men who don’t. So there.
And you have no idea what my relationship with my father, or other men in my life, is like.
@Pecunium:
I looked up the Bridgeport IPA, and it looks interesting, but I tend to not like really carbonated beers. But I’ll keep an eye open for it at work, and maybe pick up a bottle. My new goal is to try every beer we carry! (This is probably an unreachable goal, as there are hundreds of diffrent kinds of beer to work through.)
@Ami and VoiP:
Or arguing with imaginary people! =D
It makes me chuckle when we’ve got our lovely Manboobz community full of geeks and oddballs and such who thrive on the unusual, and then Crack comes in and accuses us of being weird (or at least, it sounds like an accusation since it’s immediately followed by criticisms) as if that’s some sort of bad thing!
C’mon man, ‘weird’ is such an arbitrary term. If you’re going to try and get us to behave differently, at least use words with some sort of set meaning so we have a better idea of how you’re trying to insult us.
On the other hand, if I misinterpreted that and ‘weird’ was intended as a value-neutral observation…why, thank you!
@Feyline if you want to find out what’s behind that “weird” go to the “Arms, and the men’s right movement” thread xD
Sarah: I don’t find it all that bubbly.
Personally, I get offended when people tell me I’m normal :P
You know, I’m comfortable with deriding this guy for trying to incite violence against innocent people. For that, he is a douchebag that should rot in hell.
What I’m not comfortable doing is calling suicide “selfish”.
Really? How do you justify that?
Was it selfish when he doused himself in the gasoline? (He was just trying to make a smelly, gasoline mess all over the floor for other people to clean up.)
Was it selfish when he set himself on fire? (He was just trying to draw attention to himself with all those flames.)
Was it selfish when he screamed in agony and crumpled?(Trying to draw attention to himself again)
If suicide is an act of revenge, then it’s a very lame one. Suicide bombing maybe. suicide-murder, sure. But suicide itself, especially a messy and painful suicide, speaks more to the desire for self-obliteration than anything else.
@ Sarah: I love beer! I have 5 gallons of porter brewing in my closet, so I’m always happy to talk beer talk with other people.
@Ami: I’ve been lurking in that thread, and nothing any of the regulars did popped out at me as particularly odd.
Oh noes, I’ve lost the ability to distinguish normal from not!
…
Oh well!
@Feyline I meant that he thinks that we’re all weird and cult like and horrible and stuff xD
Beer is good
Wine is good
Cider is good
Spirits are good
Men are bad. :)
When I get to New Jersey… cider is the name of the game. I’ll have a carboy in the garage before the Autumn is out.
Ami: all except for Dave, “Dan” and aMiRA.
Hey Feyline is that avatar a representation of what you look like? :3
If suicide is an act of revenge, then it’s a very lame one.
Well, yeah, it’s not generally done by people who are thinking clearly about consequences and logic and all that fun stuff. Saying it’s revenge doesn’t mean we think it’s a GOOD idea or anything. But it does work – the people left behind are very hurt by it. Probably not in precisely the way the person killing them-self intended, but definitely hurt.
Yum, cider! I’m totes about the cider now that I can’t drink beer. Do you think I could make a weird (because that’s the word of the night) michelada out of hard cider, ice, and a salty rim?
I’ll have a carboy in the garage before the Autumn is out.
That’s misandrist. I suppose you’ll let the cargirl sit in the air-conditioned house and watch Oprah?
WHO IS DAN?
http://manboobz.com/2011/06/22/arms-and-the-mens-rights-movement/comment-page-7/#comment-33242
that’s Dan
@Ami Nooo! Now all the mystery is gone.
@Bee/Pecunium Yay hard cider! And regular cider. Oohh, and mulled cider! I can make a kick-ass mulled cider. I should make that…. damn this desert never having an appropriate time for mulled cider!
Ohhhhh, right. I had completely forgotten about dan! I went back a page, after The Crack Emcee told him to follow him to various places on the internet, and gave up.
Oh, dan. Please don’t follow The Crack Emcee anywhere. It can only lead to bad things.
Oh. I think I just figured out dan. *whistles*