Men’s Rights Classix: The Age of Consent is Misandry
If it weren't for this guy, there would be no pedophiles.
Today, a trip down memory lane to revisit an until-recently lost classic of modern misogyny: Jay Hammers’ “The Age of Consent is Misandry.” The piece, originally published on Jay Hammers’Men’s Rights blog, inspired some heated discussions amongst MRAs online, with some harshly criticizing the piece as an apologia for pedophilia and others hailing it as a “politically incorrect” masterpiece. Stung by the criticism, Hammers ultimately took his blog down. But the piece has since been resurrected on the Human-Stupidity blog – another blog that seems rather unhealthily obsessed with the supposed injustice of men not being allowed to fuck underage girls.
Here are some of its highlights (that is, lowlights); the headlines are mine.
ALL ABOUT THE MENZ
The arbitrary age of consent is not about protecting women/girls. It is about valuing females and their virtue over males and their freedom. The intent of the laws is to stop older men from having sex with younger women and that is how it is enforced. It was never intended to stop younger men from having sex with older women.
MORE BETA BLUES
Age of consent laws are designed to punish beta males. A beta male in his 20s, unsuccessful with women his own age who are infused with a sense of feminist entitlement and deride all but the top alpha males who take interest in them, who seeks companionship with a younger, sexually mature female who desires him, should not go to prison for acting on that which is normal male sexuality.
FEMINISTS WHO SUPPORT AGE OF CONSENT LAWS ARE TREATING WOMEN LIKE CHILDREN
If we are to treat women as children then we should be consistent. Young women who have sex with older men are as much victims as women who have sex with a pick-up artist after meeting at a club. In both cases, feminists are angry because the woman has been “fooled” into having sex with a less than ideal mate in terms of value. …
This is what makes feminists angry and this is why age of consent exists still today, because it is assumed women are not mentally mature enough to give consent AND because older women want to limit men’s options to increase their own value in the sexual marketplace.
BUT WOMEN ARE CHILDREN, BASICALLY
Older women … are generally not of a much higher intelligence level than teenage girls. The big difference between the two is that older women are less attractive and that is what makes them so damn angry. …
Females generally do not significantly mature mentally past puberty so it should always be illegal for any woman to have sex or it should never be illegal for any woman to have sex. There is no arbitrary age where females suddenly become self-aware, realizing the consequences of their actions, and stop seeking out alpha males. Thus there must not be an arbitrary age of consent for sex.
A MODEST PROPOSAL
If anything, it should be illegal for women to have sex with men until men have been educated on the truths of women, Marriage 2.0, Game, feminism, and men’s rights.
Discuss?
Posted on June 18, 2011, in alpha males, antifeminism, beta males, creepy, internal debate, misandry, misogyny, MRA, PUA, rapey. Bookmark the permalink. 890 Comments.
Something that struck me earlier in the thread was the description of a 16-ish teen who was woken up by her mom every morning, was dependent on her parents for money, food, and transport, etc. I feel like a teen should be able to do more than that to take care of themselves. Is it cultural that keeps them from doing so? Maturity? Did we just pick a really affluent example and the other teens are slaving away already at McDonald’s?
How’d I do? Was that a good effort to get the convo back to cooler stuff? >>
@Kirby: I hesitate to think immediately “18” because it feels very U.S.-centric. But it’s always the number that sticks out for me. Perhaps something like, 18 as the age of majority and 16 as the legally recognized age of decision?
I’m not sure, legally, how the delineation would be worded. There are already things that you can do at 21 that you can’t do at 18. So many of them seem fairly superficial, though.
Not only that Nobinayamu but
REFUSING TO GROW HEMP in America during the 17th and 18th Centuries WAS AGAINST THE LAW! You could be jailed in Virginia for refusing to grow hemp from 1763 to 1769; Hemp in Colonial Virginia, G. M. Herdon.
George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and other founding fathers GREW HEMP; Washington and Jefferson Diaries. Jefferson smuggled hemp seeds from China to France then to America.
80% of all textiles, fabrics, clothes, linen, drapes, bed sheets, etc. were made from hemp until the 1820s with the introduction of the cotton gin.
The first crop grown in many states was hemp. 1850 was a peak year for Kentucky producing 40,000 tons. Hemp was the largest cash crop until the 20th Century; State Archives.
In 1916, the U.S. Government predicted that by the 1940s all paper would come from hemp and that no more trees need to be cut down. Government studies report that 1 acre of hemp equals 4.1 acres of trees. Plans were in the works to implement such programs; Department of Agriculture
Quality paints and varnishes were made from hemp seed oil until 1937. 58,000 tons of hemp seeds were used in America for paint products in 1935; Sherman Williams Paint Co. testimony before Congress against the 1937 Marijuana Tax Act.
Henry Ford’s first Model-T was built to run on hemp gasoline and the CAR ITSELF WAS CONTRUCTED FROM HEMP! On his large estate, Ford was photographed among his hemp fields. The car, ‘grown from the soil,’ had hemp plastic panels whose impact strength was 10 times stronger than steel; Popular Mechanics, 1941.
William Randolph Hearst (Citizen Kane) and the Hearst Paper Manufacturing Division of Kimberly Clark owned vast acreage of timberlands. The Hearst Company supplied most paper products. Patty Hearst’s grandfather, a destroyer of nature for his own personal profit, stood to lose billions because of hemp.
In 1937, Dupont patented the processes to make plastics from oil and coal. Dupont’s Annual Report urged stockholders to invest in its new petrochemical division. Synthetics such as plastics, cellophane, celluloid, methanol, nylon, rayon, Dacron, etc., could now be made from oil. Natural hemp industrialization would have ruined over 80% of Dupont’s business.
It seems your deity, Big Daddy has been lying to you. The list of the natural medical miracle known as MaryJane is endless.
“does it make sense to try to come up with what I mentioned earlier, a legally recognized “age of decision?” This would encompass things from sex to drinking. Or does it make sense to talk about each issue individually? For instance, 18-year olds are able to sign for themselves as separate from their guardians, and essentially become independant adults. Should this be the same logic used in consent laws?”
I think someone raised the question earlier of whether getting a tat and having sex was equivalent, but I’m not seeing too much of a conflict.
Would the age still be 18? Why that particular year?
@Molly Ren: I was the one who pointed out that a 14 year old would have very little responsibility and would in all likelihood be relying on her parents for everything from rides to school, to food, clothing and shelter. And, admittedly, for the sake of the argument (that 14 year old girls aren’t women) that was a very privileged example. When I was 14, I took the subway to school and was regularly in charge of getting dinner for my sisters, and baby-sat for extra money, and went to a rigorously academic high school that prided itself on its students having no less than 3 hours of homework every evening.
And my life was still fairly privileged. There are, undoubtedly, 14 year olds shouldering enormous duties and responsibilities in their families. And there are 14 year olds I wouldn’t trust to be able to tie their shoes. It’s all so variable.
We’ve extended the idea of childhood. We created the idea of teenagers almost out of whole-cloth. Sixteen and seventeen year olds got married (to each other, NWO; don’t get too excited) and set up house as few as sixty years ago. Not always, but it certainly wasn’t unheard of. Hell, we used to let eight year olds handle a mule and plow. We’ve changed as a culture, extending the concepts of childhood and adolescence far beyond where they’ve ever been before across many cultures.
We can argue, I guess, that our understanding of the human brain and how undeveloped the frontal lobe is, into the early twenties, is part of the reason for this change in attitude. But that’s a real chicken and the egg kind of thing.
Yeah, NWO, I went to college and smoked a lot of weed there. I know all about hemp, the founding fathers, etc. This isn’t secret information and many doctors recognize the benefits of marijuana as medicine. There are organizations all over the U.S. working to change and amend the laws.
Lay of the Big Daddy government shit, already. We’ve never had a discussion about politics and you don’t know a fucking thing. about where I stand.
“We can argue, I guess, that our understanding of the human brain and how undeveloped the frontal lobe is, into the early twenties, is part of the reason for this change in attitude. But that’s a real chicken and the egg kind of thing.”
Yeah, this is where I always get stuck on discussions of ageism and maturity. What’s a good measure of maturity? Is “frontal lobe development” a better indication than age? How on earth would this be enforced? XD
I’m reminded of something that Pecunium said earlier, about there being a “bright line” dividing age of consent from non-consent because it was a complicated issue, and by having a clear line it made it more fair? (Sorry if that’s a mis-quote, I don’t want to go back through all the comments again! o.O) Like, can you even make a law that would be enforced strictly on the basis of the maturity of a person?
So NWO is against abortion, against consent laws, and for pot? And a class A conspiracy theorist to boot? And a YEC? Wonders never cease…
@Molly Ren
Its possible that parents don’t want their children to have to do stuff like earn money for food, or drive themselves around. But besides earning money, I’m sure there are households where teens help cook meals, take public transportation when they want to go somewhere, and so on. I think its a protective instinct; the more protective the parent, the less able the child is to actually take care of themselves when they are supposed to be able to.
@Nobinayamu:
That’s about what I was expecting actually. An “age of majority” to be able to be considered separate from your guardians (parents included), which probably should include stuff like drinking (I agree with Alex here), and an “age of decisions” where a kid can make decisions in certain areas. There is one problem I just thought of, which is whether parents would be held responsible for decisions made at the “age of decision” or not…
This may not be an issue, since parents usually want the best for their kids, but stuff like getting an abortion, just like any surgery, would have to be signed for by the parents when the kid is under the age of majority. Hrm.. its complicated. But something like that seems to make sense: a person is able to make intelligent decisions before they are expected to be able to take care of themselves…
urk.. now that almost doesn’t make sense…
I think the problem is you all like to be coddled. If you read the stories from long ago of our founding fathers and such. The admirals of the time were usually cabin boys at age 9 and 10 and learned to read and about life. The leaders and even common folk had responsibilites at far younger ages.
You all run to the State for advice, to settle disputes, oh for anything at all. It’s like you want to defer all thought and decisions to the State. And then beg for more marching orders from the State. Grow up.
“I think the problem is you all like to be coddled.”
This might sorta be true. The reason we view teens as immature is possibly because we expect them to be, and raise them to be. Basically, if we expected 16 year olds to be able to operate on their own, they probably would be able to. (most, anyway). So I guess we’re caught up in culture and holdovers from the past here.
But if we grow up, NWO, you won’t want to fuck us anymore!
@Holly,
I am so sorry that happened to you. I always have to stop when sex gets painful for me and I can only imagine how awful that would be if it didn’t stop… *hugs*
See, I agree with Pecunium. The fact that it is so variable is why we have to draw the line. Otherwise, we’re neuro-imaging everybody from 14 years of age on (paid for but I don’t know who) and trying assess every person on a case by case basis. How would it work?
And if we make laws around average frontal lobe maturity, then no one will be allowed to do anything until they’re twenty-five. That won’t work either.
Maybe a single age doesn’t exist? Maybe there should be something, like a driving exam, that allows you to start making these sorts of decisions? I can only see problems stemming from that (think DMV for sex…)
But heres the issue; is there even a single age where children become able to think for themselves? Or does it depend on upbringing?
Kirbywarp, I’m remembering something like, “Childhood was invented in the Victorian era!” Because baby death rates became lower, maybe?
Urk.. I do so much better in a face to face conversation.. Stuff like this can’t be discussed in a single monolthic post by each participant…
You spend the better part of a day (and I was right here with you, no excuses) whining because 16 year old girls don’t want to fuck you, and you’d rather blame feminism than acknowledge that 16 year girls just don’t want to fuck you and you’re telling other people that they’re coddled? We need to grow up?
Please go away. Totally done with you at this point.
Like I said, if you have a problem with the government, then go live someplace that’s government free.
@Molly:
I’m sure that has something to do with it. When people had a high probability of dying before their thirties, it was more important to become an adult as quickly as possible, and children adapted to be able to do it. Like Nobinayamu said, we’ve extended the idea of childhood, and perhaps children have stayed children in that extension because of it.
I think that as people began to have fewer children, and those children began to survive through infancy and childhood more reliably, then we definitely began to extend and expand the concept of childhood. My grandfather lied about his age so that he could join the arm and fight in World War II. Totally normal for that era.
But I wouldn’t want my son to do such a thing. And if he tried it, I’d try to stop him. Very different ideas.
“DMV for sex”
I *like* that idea! I’m imagining a series of tests asking you to cook for yourself, deal with angry housemates, fill out a lease, etc.
Of course, this also reminds me of the 4 years of abstinence-only sex ed I was subject to. We’d pretty much have to overhaul the entire education system to get this to work!
On the “age of decision” thing – I actually think having stepped ages is a good thing. I like the fact that I had a couple years of partial responsibility, of being allowed to drive before I could sign contracts, of living on my own before I could drink. I think that’s easier to adapt to than “happy birthday! you’re an adult now” and having to deal with every facet of that at once.
So, I’m older than you and didn’t have abstinence education in High School. Our sex-ed was, um, very comprehensive. But my sister works with patients who’ve been to junior high and high school under the abstinence only laws and their ignorance is astonishing.
They have a tenuous grasp on the basics. Teenagers have always been able to figure out how to have sex. But there understanding of biology, conception, pregnancy, STIs, etc. is deplorable. I’d be up for something like a DMV for sex if it came with some comprehensive education.
Molly Ren – Never mind testing; I wish there was more education on how to do real things. I had Home Ec and learned a little bit of cooking and mending, but I would gladly have given up a semester of Social Studies in order to have a class where they taught kids how to find an apartment, how to keep your credit rating up, how to tell if something is a scam, how to treat minor diseases and when to see a doctor, even how to deal with arguments in a relationship.
@Molly:
“We’d pretty much have to overhaul the entire education system to get this to work!”
Maybe not? We already integrate SATs after highschool, and a lot of schools offer Driver’s Ed in preperation for the driving test. Perhaps a maturity test of some form could be given as a standard part of schooling? This still has a lot of problems with implementation, but its a start.
I wonder though, on the other hand. If there were a single age, lets say 16, where it was decided that such a child could make decisions, would parents adapt their parenting to prepare their children for being that age? Sorta like “the talk” some parents have about drugs and sex and alchohol. Maybe we don’t need to worry about implementation, and just focus on some objective way of determining when children are capable of such things?
I think part of the problem is that inherent in making decisions is being responsible for their outcome. Can it be said that children truly make decisions if the outcome of their decisions doesn’t matter?
Nobinayamu – In addition to the biology of it, I also wish sex ed covered more of the psychology of sex: how to say no, how to say yes, how to untangle sex from status and “winning” and shame, how to talk honestly and openly about sex.
…It’s a pipe dream, I guess, but a fun one.
“I had a couple years of partial responsibility, of being allowed to drive before I could sign contracts, of living on my own before I could drink.”
I was one of those momma’s girls who didn’t ache to move out. :P My big experience of the world & responsibility was college. Weirdly, even tho I was better prepared than some of my peers (I could cook and manage money!) that *still* wasn’t enough. How much of “being adult” can be taught or tested?
@Holly and Molly:
Grah, I’m going everywhere on this. See, I like the idea of stepped ages too, Holly, and your reasoning perhaps mitigates my last concern.
On schooling, while I think its a great idea, don’t the parents have some responsibility to teach their kids about these things? Should it really be left up to the school?
Also, what would we do with that group of 30-year-olds and over who never passed the maturity test? Could they never marry? Never drink? Never sign leases? :P
Uh, fluoride is good for my teeth. Last I checked. Are all my dentists lying to me?
IT’S A CONSPIRACY, PLYMOUTH. STOP DRINKING WATER AND EAT ONLY ICE CREAM FROM NOW ON!
Kirby, in an ideal world, yes. Parents would all be perfectly rational and, themselves, well-educated and informed. Their own relationships would be healthy and they would be able to speak frankly and honestly with their children about sex and relationships in such a way to steer them into making the best possible decisions.
But you know better. It’s difficult to imagine how a sex-ed class that tried to deal beyond the purely biological would work. I’d settle for classes that explained why you need to use condoms and birth control. For the love of god, please use condoms.
“On schooling, while I think its a great idea, don’t the parents have some responsibility to teach their kids about these things? Should it really be left up to the school?”
I guess we’d have to prove that a lot of parents were incompetent in some way? >>
@Molly:
I wonder how likely that would be to be the case? The maturity test wouldn’t have to be particularly difficult, and it would be trying to assess mental ability rather than (necessarily) knowledge. If they didn’t pass, in an idea world, it would indicate they still had the minds of children, and therefore wouldn’t be able to do the things you’ve mentioned because they wouldn’t be capable of things like consent.
Molly – I wouldn’t be comfortable with an absolute “maturity test”–it seems difficult, among other issues, to separate “maturity” from culture and ability–but maybe something like a learner’s permit. You’re a legal adult at 18 no matter what, but 16 if you pass the test.
“it seems difficult, among other issues, to separate ‘maturity’ from culture and ability”
Why has it taken me this long to realize maturity can be cultural? o.O
@Nobinayamu:
No, I do know that. Good point.
On the plus side, I did take a sex ed class that wasn’t absitance only, and in fact we did cover the use of contraception and all that. It was probably very useful (hard to tell what it would be like without it). Abstenance-only education has been a proven failure, and its a wonder we don’t just ban it. Texas, one implementer of it, has some of the highest rates of teen pregnancy and STI/STDs in the country because of it.
@Holly:
Thats actually a very very good idea. It might not have to be 18, but the age of majority would simultaneously be a pass for decision making as well, and consent could be individually assessed for persons under the majority age.
Nobinayamu | June 18, 2011 at 10:34 pm
@Kirby: I hesitate to think immediately “18″ because it feels very U.S.-centric. But it’s always the number that sticks out for me.
Yeah that’s what I was saying to Molly Ren earlier :\ That cuz of the US narrative (which isn’t even law in most of the States when it comes to age of consent for sex) and what we get from the media, TV, fiction, and just the way ppl talk about these issues (case in point NWO going straight to 18 as the default even tho it’s not true in most of America.. you’d think a guy so afraid of the state and feminists wanting to jail him and so eager to have smex w/ 18, or is that 17 or 16 y/os xD would have all of this stuff memorized for his own safety) all lead to us “knowing” that 18 is the age of majority, the age when ppl are adults, the age when ppl SHOULD be able to make decisions about their lives and their bodies… but not before… and that’s what I want a discussion about and not just w/ us. I mean like I think our societies rly need one, an honest one, where we’re not afraid to talk about what actually happens IRL, good and bad, where we don’t hide from issues about trans kids and teens, or abortions, or omg kids have sex, and the fear/threat/reality of adults that might try to coerce kids, of real sex ed, or a culture that doesn’t try to pretend NONE of the above happens etc etc. And that discussion must also involve young ppl, b/c this affects them, and we can keep in mind their maturity level and experiences (tho depending on experiences, young ppl can be surprisingly mature (and as we know, some adults can be amazingly IMMATURE xD ), sometimes I think we assume certain things about the hypothetical child that we talk about) while we listen to them. :]
So what would have to happen for us to get this implemented?
@Molly:
First, all current US politicians would have to leave office or die off. Second, all of them would be replaced by politicians who hold the same views, but are willing to consider the idea that we don’t have to rely on the past to determine what is good for the future.
Then it amounts to making a good case for the way things should be, gathering data on children’s mental capabilities as they age, and lots of lobbying.
Wacky fact: when I was a kid, I lived for a couple years in a very remote area, outside the US, without water fluoridation.
So the dentist gave me fluoride tablets.
Amazing how a dentist–a dentist who’s not even American!–can be a tool of the Man. (Also, I have very good teeth, but I’m sure that’s a random coincidence.)
My sister always reminds me that children have no advocates. They don’t pay taxes and they can’t vote. We rely almost entirely on their parents to represent their interests and cross our fingers.
I think the only way to even half way start would be to get rid of abstinence only education.
A life skills class for high school students would also be a very good idea. Many of the principles taught in conflict resolution are directly translatable to romantic relationships.
“all lead to us “knowing” that 18 is the age of majority, the age when ppl are adults, the age when ppl SHOULD be able to make decisions about their lives and their bodies… but not before… and that’s what I want a discussion about and not just w/ us. I mean like I think our societies rly need one, an honest one, where we’re not afraid to talk about what actually happens IRL, good and bad, where we don’t hide from issues about trans kids and teens, or abortions, or omg kids have sex, and the fear/threat/reality of adults that might try to coerce kids, of real sex ed, or a culture that doesn’t try to pretend NONE of the above happens etc etc.”
So… agh, I dunno how to address going younger than 18… or, heck, even 14. I think what ties my hands is that I know almost nothing about child development.
“My sister always reminds me that children have no advocates. They don’t pay taxes and they can’t vote. We rely almost entirely on their parents to represent their interests and cross our fingers.”
Then we get into stuff like child labor laws.
When we discuss the ways in which children used to have more responsibility, we can’t ignore the fact that we also used to treat children kind of shamefully. We didn’t have laws preventing child labor. Children were regularly pulled out of school if their families needed them to earn income. The school year itself was designed around the growing season.
It’s one thing to suggest that children and teenagers are capable of much more responsibility. I don’t completely disagree. But the reality of the modern world is that very few of them will grow up to be farmers. There opportunities and options will be severely limited if they don’t receive a decent education. We can see that for ourselves.
We have to achieve some sort of balance between reasonable autonomy and our responsibility to help them provide for their future.
Nobinayamu: I give up. I’m out of synonyms for “ridiculous” and “absurd”
I’d just go with… NWO, you ignorant slut.
I mean it’s also true you can say he’s fractally wrong, or that he’s got all the coherence of salt in water, that he’s risen to theatrical levels not seen since the writings of Ionescu, That the vastness of his wrongfulness is almost enough to fill the Marianas Trench, that his errors cannot be duplicated buy millions of Frenchman; or that the canonic infinity of monkeys would crank out the entire works of Shakespeare (twice) before they came close to producing half the errors of NWO, That the Combined Efforts of Darwin, Einstein, Newton, Gallileo, Cuvier, Agassi, and Edison fail to counterbalance his wrongness….
Yeah, I’m starting to run out of synonyms too…
And that’s just for his level of wrong, it fails completely to deal with his tendency to lie.
@Molly Ren: Exactly. She always says that she truly believes that most parents are doing the very best that they can. Doesn’t change the fact that sometimes their best falls woefully short.
@Molly Ren:
“I think what ties my hands is that I know almost nothing about child development.”
Wouldn’t be surprised if that was true for a lot of us. But we still have something to say on the matter, including anecdotes of being kids and of recognizing what some kids out there are capable/incapable of doing. The 18 thing is sorta beat into you from day one in the US, but recognizing that maturity is partly influenced by culture may help you realize that 18 isn’t necessarily a good cut-off point (strictly from a biological perspective).
My friend’s grandfather got a job at the coal mine stomping on big pieces of coal, to break them into smaller pieces of coal, when he was 7 or 8. I don’t think that that’s a great argument for making children work dangerous (or any) jobs in the present-day. I mean, look. The longer kids stay in school, the more kids graduate high school, the better education they get, the better off society at large is.
And I think that’s where I keep coming down on the age of consent thing, too. For me, giving kids complete freedom to do whatever they like is tied into the idea of guardianship. If 14-year-olds can drink and smoke, consent to sex, and join the army — then I start to wonder at what point their parents no longer have to be responsible for them, potentially freeing them from some day-to-day obligations of life so they can attend school and better prepare for adulthood. I’m thinking, at least a little bit, of my boyfriend. By the time he was 18, he and his ex had had two children*; his mom, recovering from a bad divorce and going on her own little dating spree, misjudged his maturity and let him live alone, drop out of school, and party, from the time he was 15 on. I don’t know. I’m kind of getting all my ideas muddied here — I feel conflicted about his experience, because I love his mom, and I acknowledge that he didn’t completely screw up his life, but I can’t help but feel sad for 15-year-old him. Based on his experience (and my own), I feel like having some stricter, adult-drawn rules and limits can be helpful, especially for a kid who doesn’t have a great handle on what’s going on yet.
Whether those rules and limits have to be set at 15, 16, 17, 18, or 25, I don’t know. (I’m thinking more like 17-18, and less like 25, though.) I don’t like the total abandonment/no rules option, but the no autonomy/total domination thing doesn’t work either, of course. And there are no laws that say, for example, that parents must allow their children to provide meaningful input on the subject of their own health. I mean, my parents made me have surgery at a fairly young age. And I’m still a little conflicted about that.
Ah, one more thing that always comes up in these conversations. People with cognitive disabilities. I’m torn between wanting to recognize that people with cognitive disabilities are at risk for abusive relationships; and yet — adults with disabilities deserve a chance at a loving relationship. So I’m a little on alert whenever something like the sex maturity test is proposed.
tl;dr I’m not sure if any of this makes sense. I guess my main concern with getting rid of legal distinctions between children and adults is that I feel like it could lead to parents not being responsible for their children’s well-being at a lowered age. And I don’t see why we’re forever wanting to turn back the clock in this country, to revisit things that we’ve already seen are hugely problematic, such as low graduation rates and child endangerment.
*Neither was arrested for statutory rape, oddly.
@Kirby I think an overhaul is in order. For all SORTS of things. xD The age of consent, age of maturity, etc is one, as I said before. Why work from a flawed model that was based on things we haven’t believed in for decades or based in myths, fears, or religious beliefs? Also I think even tho things are complex, in the whole the simpler the better, and based upon some principles (not that I know for sure what they SHOULD be, but I keep bringing up the right to body autonomy as one)… cuz I’m concerned that it’ll just be on what ppl are morally and personally ok w/ will result in “well this should be an exception just cuz”… for EXAMPLE (this is not saying NEBODY here believes this)… the age of sexual consent should be 18, b/c any younger and the child might be in danger of being coerced by an adult, but I think that trans ppl should be able to consent to hormones at age 16 b/c they obv know what they want. And the opposite… age of consent should be 16, have you seen what kids these days alrdy know by 14!? but how can we rly know if a trans person has consented or is being manipulated by a 30-50 y/o psychiatrist until they’re 18? (which is brought up a LOT, actually even past age 18 xD but esp for the kids) and etc… (i know these are kinda straw examples, but these views are def out there and not uncommon :\ )
I dun think a maturity test is a good idea, just cuz how do you test maturity? And how do we agree what makes a person mature? :\ I’m concerned b/c there are a lot of issues where simply WANTING something is often used as proof that you dunno what you’re doing, esp for kids. :| Is it a written test? Or like a driving test is there a real life component? That would creep me out :\ And the written test sounds like ppl would just pass on the answers to their friends :\ Or study guides would pop up, which COULD be good I guess cuz it’d train ppl… or it’d mean v little :\
The thing is it will def be used as a political tool tho. What’s on the test? Esp since this means ppl will be able to vote 2 years younger. There are going to be accusations that the test is being used to filter out certain potential voters, or there will be attempts to change it :\ And will every state have their own maturity test? :\ It kinda feels like we’re creating 2nd class citizens based on some idea of maturity that I’m concerned about turning into a right or wrong test format :\ (it’s complicated enuf debating about where age of consent laws should be, and the various situations, and all the grey area.. now we’re taking that and turning it into a black and white thing :\ )
And honestly, it scares me about the government testing ppl’s capacity to be able to control their own bodies :\
@Bee
Ah, one more thing that always comes up in these conversations. People with cognitive disabilities. I’m torn between wanting to recognize that people with cognitive disabilities are at risk for abusive relationships; and yet — adults with disabilities deserve a chance at a loving relationship. So I’m a little on alert whenever something like the sex maturity test is proposed.
Exactly. That is what I’m concerned about as well. :\
And you make a v good point about the fear of parents feeling like they can dump their kids out at 14 (or whenever ) that would be one of the trade offs/concerns/something to address/etc. Tho alrdy parents do kick their kids out for all sorts of reasons, that are also some of the reasons I have mentioned above about rights to their own body (abortion, pregnancy, homosexuality, transsexuality) :|
Wow, this thread just exploded since I last looked in on it.
Let me guess: slavey made a bunch of disingenuous arguments, pulled a number of “facts” out of his ass, and simplistically misrepresented what other people said. When confronted on his asshattery, he then pulled the passive aggressive “gosh, I guess I’m just wrong about everything, unlike you geniuses” routine.
Did I miss anything?
@CB:
Apart from slavey not getting around to the geniuses thing before flouncing, and this thread actually turning into a meaningful discussion, that’s about right. :P
Molly Ren: I’m reminded of something that Pecunium said earlier, about there being a “bright line” dividing age of consent from non-consent because it was a complicated issue, and by having a clear line it made it more fair? (Sorry if that’s a mis-quote, I don’t want to go back through all the comments again! o.O) Like, can you even make a law that would be enforced strictly on the basis of the maturity of a person?
What a bright line gives us is a way to be impartial. The idea is, basically, that by “x” age all the people will be mature enought to handle whatever it is. Yes, there will be those who could have done “x” sooner, but the difficuties in implementing (and the potential for abuse) a case by case determination for everyone is unworkable.
And we have some exemptions (“emancipated minors”), wherein some (or all) of the aspects of adulthood are granted to those minors who can show both a need, and a cause. Oddly (though it may have changed since I last looked) in Calif. a female who marries below the age of consent (18… no 16 year olds for NWO in the Golden State) is automatically emancipated, but the reverse isn’t true for men. This strike me as unfair.
Bee wrote, “I guess my main concern with getting rid of legal distinctions between children and adults is that I feel like it could lead to parents not being responsible for their children’s well-being at a lowered age. And I don’t see why we’re forever wanting to turn back the clock in this country, to revisit things that we’ve already seen are hugely problematic, such as low graduation rates and child endangerment.”
This may be one of those instances when I end the convo thinking “Well, I thought the laws could be better until I remembered why they were there in the first place.” ><
Ami, I think a distinction probably needs to be made between maturity and useful life skills? (I take full responsibility for muddling the issue.)
Nobinayamu | June 18, 2011 at 11:24 pm
My sister always reminds me that children have no advocates. They don’t pay taxes and they can’t vote. We rely almost entirely on their parents to represent their interests and cross our fingers.
Yus, that’s something I talked about in the other thread.. that there is also adult/child power dynamics re: privilege/oppression. Now it’s not exactly the same b/c there ARE reasons for it in terms of physical, emotional and mental development, maturity, experiences, etc… but it is also a dynamic that a lot of the “where’s my white male priv” guys miss, which is that as a child, you are also part of an oppression dynamic, or CAN be, if an adult chooses to abuse you, assault you, etc :\ And that that’s why the idea of “women were so well off back when they had no rights and taken care of by men” or “women dun need rights they can cry and some guy can help them” is so silly cuz it’s like saying that children have privilege. Why? Cuz they are (excluding when it intersects with class) taken care of, fed, clothed, they dun have to work, pay taxes, if they cry ppl will do things for them (or tell them they’re spoiled brats and shut up) b/c children are seen as weak and helpless and we feel bad for them (or tell them they’re spoiled brats and shut up)…. I mean look at all that child privilege! They don’t even have to change tires! xD And I dun think nebody will say children have privilege over adults (at least nobody who actually cares about children, rather than “BOY DO I WISH I DIDN’T HAVE TO WORK”) cuz they can’t decide their own bodies, their own lives, they’re seen legally as being too immature to decide things, their “protection” is dependant on adults doing their jobs, or not being abusive, or irresponsible (incl child services) and etc… their voices are heard less, they can’t vote,.. etc :\
@Molly Ren you mean for the test? o_O
Re the tests: I have one thing to say: Literacy exams for voting.
Because that’s what would happen. Imagine a DKM getting into the test-making process. Women would never get to be complete adults.
Imagine someone like D. Duke getting into it, and citing, “The Bell Curve” to make the tests.
When you put it that way, voting and changing tires sounds like an awful limited way to define someone as worthy of rights and stuff (when “rights” = “decent treatment”).
Those are exactly my concerns Pecunium :\
NWO: I think the problem is you all like to be coddled. If you read the stories from long ago of our founding fathers and such. The admirals of the time were usually cabin boys at age 9 and 10 and learned to read and about life.
NWO is wrong again. The officers in former days were midshipman. A warrant rank. They were a sort of officer. Cabin boys were servants, working directly for the captain. They also didn’t exist on naval vessels, they were only found in merchant vessels.
Midshipmen were, by and large, children from well to do families, who had connections with the Navy. They learned some specific mathematics (related to sailing) They already knew how to read. They also rarely went to see before they were 11-12. They would be “put on the books” at 6-8, so they would have the required seniority to “Pass for lieutenant” [the lowest commissioned rank] at about 18.
None of which has anything to with anyone here, “wanting to be coddled”. Moreover, your asssertion that we run(or ran) to the state for anything is based on what personal knowledge? What are these “marching orders”, and whence come they? Mail? Semaphore? Secret messages in the commercials on the radio?
Or maybe the maturity test could be the kobiyashi maru xD (not mocking, I just thought of this idea and it makes me laugh XD ) It’s a no win scenario! Like real life! We’ll judge you based on how you handle it. XD
Or that box that burns your hand like in Dune!
@Molly Ren, the changing tires thing and not being able to cry and get some strong man to do it was actually something somebody else used as an example of male oppression/female privilege in another thread and I originally had it in my above comment, took it out, and forgot to take out the other reference too xD so I hope it makes more sense now
@Molly Ren or that Minbari pillar of fire trial to determine leadership in Babylon 5! :D Two minors go in, the one who stays the longest wants to be an adult most! XD -_-;;
Now we’re going old school on age of consent. You’re not an adult until you live in the wilderness for a week alone. Or see a vision. Or kill a mammoth!!!
Ami: That’s (tires and food) NWO being wrong again.
With just a rock in your hands and a few female humans shaking branches at you!
In seriousness, I think I’m completely convinced by now that a “maturity test” is a terrible idea.
@Holly:
Yeah, I’m starting to understand the Bright Line principle Pecunium was talking about. Its just too complicated to go through administrating of taking every case on a case by case basis. A simple standard with room for exceptional cases seems like the most likely way this would play out. I still like the idea of steps though, and of dividing “can decide on certain things” from “should be treated as an autonomous adult.”