Men’s Rights Classix: The Age of Consent is Misandry
If it weren't for this guy, there would be no pedophiles.
Today, a trip down memory lane to revisit an until-recently lost classic of modern misogyny: Jay Hammers’ “The Age of Consent is Misandry.” The piece, originally published on Jay Hammers’Men’s Rights blog, inspired some heated discussions amongst MRAs online, with some harshly criticizing the piece as an apologia for pedophilia and others hailing it as a “politically incorrect” masterpiece. Stung by the criticism, Hammers ultimately took his blog down. But the piece has since been resurrected on the Human-Stupidity blog – another blog that seems rather unhealthily obsessed with the supposed injustice of men not being allowed to fuck underage girls.
Here are some of its highlights (that is, lowlights); the headlines are mine.
ALL ABOUT THE MENZ
The arbitrary age of consent is not about protecting women/girls. It is about valuing females and their virtue over males and their freedom. The intent of the laws is to stop older men from having sex with younger women and that is how it is enforced. It was never intended to stop younger men from having sex with older women.
MORE BETA BLUES
Age of consent laws are designed to punish beta males. A beta male in his 20s, unsuccessful with women his own age who are infused with a sense of feminist entitlement and deride all but the top alpha males who take interest in them, who seeks companionship with a younger, sexually mature female who desires him, should not go to prison for acting on that which is normal male sexuality.
FEMINISTS WHO SUPPORT AGE OF CONSENT LAWS ARE TREATING WOMEN LIKE CHILDREN
If we are to treat women as children then we should be consistent. Young women who have sex with older men are as much victims as women who have sex with a pick-up artist after meeting at a club. In both cases, feminists are angry because the woman has been “fooled” into having sex with a less than ideal mate in terms of value. …
This is what makes feminists angry and this is why age of consent exists still today, because it is assumed women are not mentally mature enough to give consent AND because older women want to limit men’s options to increase their own value in the sexual marketplace.
BUT WOMEN ARE CHILDREN, BASICALLY
Older women … are generally not of a much higher intelligence level than teenage girls. The big difference between the two is that older women are less attractive and that is what makes them so damn angry. …
Females generally do not significantly mature mentally past puberty so it should always be illegal for any woman to have sex or it should never be illegal for any woman to have sex. There is no arbitrary age where females suddenly become self-aware, realizing the consequences of their actions, and stop seeking out alpha males. Thus there must not be an arbitrary age of consent for sex.
A MODEST PROPOSAL
If anything, it should be illegal for women to have sex with men until men have been educated on the truths of women, Marriage 2.0, Game, feminism, and men’s rights.
Discuss?
Posted on June 18, 2011, in alpha males, antifeminism, beta males, creepy, internal debate, misandry, misogyny, MRA, PUA, rapey. Bookmark the permalink. 890 Comments.
NWO, I realize that you’re an ephebophile but you do understand that most 14, 15, and 16 year old girls are not really interested in men much older than their early twenties right? I mean, you don’t have to take my word for it; take a look at the movie stars and pop stars that earn a living off of the desire of young teenage girls. They aren’t exactly swooning over Colin Firth. There are always exceptions.
Nobinayamu, that doesn’t answer my questions.
@NWO:
“Can/will anyone answer my question?” Yes. Will you ever get around to answering ours?
“Are any men over the age of 18 imprisoned for sleeping with girls under the age of 18?” Yes.
“Can any of you give me one good reason that doesn’t involve a power dynamic?” Rape/abuse? Or is that an imaginary power dynamic made up by feminists?
kirbywarp, tell me how a 16 year old girl consenting to have sex with a man over the age of 18 has translated into rape?
“If you are a woman, (can’t tell by the name) If you are a woman, (can’t tell by the name) and you are “a little later in life”
I am a 20-year-old female -.-
“than get one every week for a year and let me know the results. Ionized radiation is cumlative, so if 20 doses will cause a particular woman to get cancer, the time it takes/or the time in between doses is irrelevant. The dose recieved never goes away, it doesn’t dissapate. So if she gets 1 every six months she gets cancer in 10 years, if she gets 1 every year she gets cancer in 20 years. The end result is the same. Radiation causes cancer.”
You are ignoring the context. And you are ignoring the studies that I presented to back up my point…which, interestingly enough, take into consideration that we are exposed to radiation every day.
A woman does not need to get a mammogram once a week. Women who are not considered high-risk are not generally recommended to get a mammogram every six months once they are of the appropriate age. A healthy woman with no predisposition toward breast cancer is typically recommended to get a mammogram every two years once she is between the ages of 40 and 50, although nowadays some studies/organizations suggest that waiting until 50 to start getting them may be better. On the whole though, the evidence strongly suggests that mammograms provide vastly greater benefits than harm.
You are also not taking into consideration variation among individuals. For instance, my mother had never had a mammogram in her life, and succumbed to breast cancer at the age of 46. Early detection could have saved her life. Her illness and subsequent death combined with my family history suggest that there is a very strong predisposition toward breast cancer in my lineage. So personally, I am not overly concerned about developing cancer as a result of being exposed to radiation via mammography. Other women may feel differently based on their own circumstances. The point is, it’s highly illogical to contend that on the whole, a woman is more likely to get breast cancer from mammograms, in part due to the fact that all women do not have the same likelihood of developing cancer…not to mention the empirical data that points to the contrary.
And just as an aside, since this has nothing to do with mammograms–yes, radiation causes cancer. Are you aware that radiation can also be used to treat cancer?
You see kirbywarp, you went right for the worst of the worst of your fabled power dynamic. Rape/abuse. Cause thats what men do, right? The feminist movement is pure hatred and nothing else.
Actually, based on my experience with members of the Arizona State Legislature (yes, I know way way too many of them), I would say that the people who created the laws were doing it to protect their children from being harmed.
It had nothing to do with some kind of indoctrination. It had to do with fathers (and it was mainly fathers) wanting to make sure their little girls were not being exploited by evil old fuckers. Also their little boys as the Brock family has learned very well.
NWO, would you like a list of all the questions that I’ve asked on this thread that you have been unwilling or unable to answer? Seriously, it won’t take but a second to whip it up.
1) Yes, there are men who have been jailed for sleeping with women under the age of eighteen. Since the vast majority of the U.S. posts the age of consent at 16, then these men should have just waited until their pure, true love was 16 years of age.
2) It’s against the law and is defined as statutory rape. Different states have different rules regarding the age of consent. If a man is caught breaking the law and is arrested, tried, and convicted, he may very well go to jail. As for the reasons: maybe the girl’s father found out and had him arrested. Aren’t you all for fathers having a say in who their daughters date and marry. Don’t you write all the time about how back in the good old days, fathers loved their daughters so much they took responsibility for their love lives?
And you’re all about the love, eh Slavey?
Dammit NWO, I’m trying to be helpful here. You asked for one reason why an over 18 man and an under 18 woman having sex has resulted in an arrest, and I said rape. You turn around and say “oh ho! You think that every single such relationship is rape! Ha!”
“16 year old girl consenting to have sex with a man over the age of 18 has translated into rape?”
It doesn’t always. If age of consent is 18, legally the girl cannot consent, and therefore statuatory rape. if age of consent is 16, guess what? It isn’t rape. I don’t know why you don’t understand this. And the goal posts are constantly shifting with you: on the one hand you thing 16 and 30 is fine, but now you want us to defend all 16 and 18 relationships, as if opposing the first is equivalent to opposing the second. Stick to one point, will you?
I’m looking after your health papr1ka. Radiation causes cancer and is cumlative.
1) Is radiation cumlative?
2) Do mamograms use radiation?
What are your answers?
1. I’m sure they have. Of course some states have laws that say the age of consent is less than 18, and many states have so-called Romeo and Juliet laws that allow a sexual relationship between two people where both are over 14 and the age gap between them is no more than 4 years.
2. Because adults molesting children is sick and wrong. And can cause long-term, damaging psychological effects. For example, I’d say, off-hand, that many of the men I worked with in prison had been sexually molested in their youth. Is that a good enough reason, or do you need more?
I’m pretty sure radiation gives you the proportionate strength and agility of a spider. I read it in a book so it must be true.
Explain something to NWO: Yesterday you were going on and on, and endlessly on, about how women were terrible and not worth being in relationships with because we’re devoid of responsibility and consequences. We’re given everything we need just by crying, we’re vain, self-centered, inconsiderate, etc.
Men, rightfully, deplore these qualities in women – you especially. But a 14 year old girl who literally has parents who provide her with shelter, clothing and food, who probably is woken up by her mother every day, and is driven to school or dropped off at a bus stop, who pays no bills and whose responsibilities may stretch to occasional baby sitting gigs, and house-hold chores…
This 14 year old is a woman? And not just a woman, a woman of such stellar character, steely resolve, courage and responsibility that you NWO, would deign to possibly fall in love with her. Sweet, pure, utterly devoid of control, love/
Spearhafoc, it’s true. I was bitten by a spider earlier today and I’m actually hanging upside down from the ceiling as I write this.
Also, in case you’re interested: http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/2011/06/debbie-reynolds-auctions-movie-memorabilia-today.html
NWO, post a credible study that proves that mammograms cause breast cancer.
Post it, or shut the fuck up. You know nothing about medical irradiation, or radiation oncology.
I’m usually a lurker, but I just have to acknowledge this excellent comment, and ask NWOSlave for a response to it:
“Let’s say you fall in pure, pure love with a 14 year old girl -and you aren’t living in South Carolina, Idaho, or Utah- and she returns your feelings. You know, you were just hanging out by the Junior High School one afternoon, right around 3:30 pm. She came out of the building laughing and joking with her friends about Glee and texting her boyfriend about meeting up at the mall. Your eyes lock. She abandons her friends, comes over to you, blinks innocently, and asks for a ride home. She’s enthralled and beguiled by your middle-aged charms.
“You begin to pick her up after school regularly but, because she’s underaged your careful to drop her a block or so from home. Your intentions are noble, of course, but you wouldn’t want anyone getting the wrong idea. You stop by the Sonic every afternoon and discuss the Rothschilds and the world debt clock. She thinks you’re the most fascinating man she’s ever met. Your love is pure. There’s some hand-holding. A few innocent pecks. It progresses to heavy petting. You’re certain she’s the one and she wants nothing more than to be with you too.
“When do you drop her off directly in front of her house, ring the doorbell, and as her parents for permission to date their daughter?”
Inquiring minds want to know!
Nobinayamu
“Explain something to NWO: Yesterday you were going on and on, and endlessly on, about how women were terrible and not worth being in relationships with because we’re devoid of responsibility and consequences. We’re given everything we need just by crying, we’re vain, self-centered, inconsiderate, etc.”
If a 16 year old girl can agree to sex with a 16 year old boy but isn’t “responsible” for her actions if she chooses to have sex with an older man. This would be the begining of her indoctrination that she will not be held accountable for her actions.
“This 14 year old is a woman? And not just a woman, a woman of such stellar character, steely resolve, courage and responsibility that you NWO, would deign to possibly fall in love with her. Sweet, pure, utterly devoid of control, love/”
I’ve seen 14 year old girls wearing next to nothing on the beaches, just shakin there money makers like pro’s. Too young for me, I just don’t see anything in them. Now a 17 year old who hasn’t been indoctrinated yet is another story. Of course that little tale puts me in jail. Doesn’t it?
But I could see a 21 year old man fall for a 14 or 15 year old girl and she in turn fall for him. Once again that put’s the man in jail. He will be responsible for her actions.
BigKitty…If I did happen to fall deeply and purely in love with said girl and she with me. I’d end up in prison quite frankly.
Suddenly now you want me to ask her fathers permission? If I had said a statement like asking a fathers permission you’d ramble on about fathers owning their daughters sexuality. Now all the sudden it’s preferred behavior. Outstanding.
How old are you, NWOslave?
So, NWOslave just wants to get them before they get indoctrinated into the evil feminist empire and become stone cold bitches?
NWO, its amazing how the goals have changed. It used to be about 30 and 16 year olds desperately loving each other, but the world won’t let them, and now its late teens and early twenties. Could you please just start with what you believe, instead of meandering around slowly, spouting falsehoods, until you get to what you actually mean?
Sometimes I feel like the dark emperor in star wars. Your hatred makes me stronger.
No, NWO, if he falls for a 14 or 15 year old girl and has sex with her and ends up in jail as a result he’ll be responsible for HIS actions. The age of consent is 16 in the vast majority of states. If he can’t wait a year or two for her to be of age, then not only does he not love her, he lacks the basic instinct of self preservation.
And the question has never been about how hot you find 14 year old girls. Or 16 year old girls or 17 year old girls. I’m sure you know all about how the “pros” shake their money makers, but most 14 and 15 year old girls that you see on the beach aren’t thinking about you, or trying to titillate you. Everyone on the fucking beach is wearing next to nothing. In a swimsuit, everyone is at least 60% to 70% naked. If you can’t handle going to the beach without thinking that 14 year olds are trying to shake it for you, perhaps your ass needs to stay home.
I’ll tell you what, your theory of “indoctrination” set aside, the age of consent is 17 or below in most of the 50 states, including Texas which you reference so often. You won’t be facing any jail time by approaching 17 year old girls at the beach.
Care to give it a try?
C’mon. I’m sure they’re dying to fall in sweet, pure love, with a middle-aged, milk-machine, mechanic. Tuck those wrinkly balls into a speedo, haul your cheeks to the Gulf one of these warm summer days and see how well you do.
Either one gets ya 2 ta 15 in da big house kirbywarp. Feminist fun.
No, NWO, you’re the one whose suggested time and time again that it was right and appropriate for fathers to control their daughters dating and marriage choices in the past. You long for that kind of culture.
Forget asking her parents permission. When will you go to their door, ring their bell, and pick their daughter up for dinner and a movie? When I was 16 years old and officially allowed to go out on dates, boys had to come to the door to pick me up.
Prove that age of consent laws were created by feminists.
“I’m looking after your health papr1ka. Radiation causes cancer and is cumlative.”
The answer to both of your questions is yes.
Now I have a question for you:
Why do you continuously ignore the studies I linked which indicate that a.) the radiation one is exposed to from a mammogram is relatively slight and b.) the benefits of actually getting the mammogram far outweigh the risks? If you like, I can provide more. Those were just two of the more prominent studies, as far as I am aware.
I will look after my own health, thank you, and begin getting mammograms a bit on the early side, since it is extremely likely that I inherited the “breast cancer gene” (though I will eventually get tested to confirm that before I dive in with the mammograms). Or perhaps (in the case that I do have the dreaded gene) I’ll simply attempt to skirt the entire issue and eventually just get a double mastectomy…I haven’t decided yet.
NWOSlave – Here’s the problem, in companies over a certain amount of employee’s and any company that wants a Guv contract a certain percentage of high paid employee’s must be women in order to either stay in business or get those Guv contracts. This is feminist doctrine imposed upon society, this is wrong. Gender is the only qualification. My question to you is. Is this equality?
If that’s actually what was happening, no it would not be equality. But that isn’t actually how AA works. How it actually works is that a company has to prove that they are recruiting QUALIFIED female and minority applicants and hiring QUALIFIED female and minority applicants. Gender is most certainly not the only qualification – they have to actually be able to do the work. And insomuch as there are hiring goals they are based on the number of qualified applicants actually in the workforce. Women are 51% of the population. They are NOT 51% of the engineers in my group or in my company. Not even close. And yet somehow my company gets lots and lots of government contracts (it’s pretty much our main business – I work for a large defense contractor).
When we work on proposals for various projects frequently the proposal scoring will have a bonus of 10-15% if we demonstrate that we are working with subcontractors who are WMDVBEs – women, minority, or disabled veteran, owned business enterprises. This only applies to small businesses though and their ownership, not to employees within the company or within our company. And it’s only a bonus, not a requirement. In the private sector it is often harder for these small businesses to get work so the public sector tried to balance this out by making it easier. Doesn’t always work perfectly, but obviously neither would doing nothing.
How old are you? More or less, if you’re sensitive about the actual number?
“Now a 17 year old who hasn’t been indoctrinated yet is another story.”
Subby, you’re what. 50? I’m in my 30s, and I can’t imagine finding any kind of attraction with anyone that young. I guess you’re within your rights to be attracted to whoever you’re attracted to. I just have a hard time picturing why a 50-year-old thinks a 17-year-old would be a good match. Hell, I dated a 50-year-old a few years ago, and the age gap was too much.
I’m going to guess, late 40’s or early 50’s. Old enough to long for the idyllic days of the 1950’s, yet too young to remember what they were really like.
And, in my continued collection of questions you’e ignored:
I didn’t ask you how sexy or mature you think a 14 year old is (see above) I asked you if she’s a woman? And more importantly, how will a minor being taken care of completely by her legal guardians be able to display the kind of character, responsibility, courage, and humility that you find lacking in most women over the age of 18?
I mean, seriously, have you been around in 14 year old girls, lately?
Wait. Don’t answer that. I don’t want to know.
Oh, and NWO: with regard to BigKitty’s post (and your reply to it),
perhaps “asking permission” would not be the best way to put it. However, generally speaking when a minor enters into a serious relationship (regardless of whether it’s with another minor or with an adult), the person with whom they are in a relationship is expected to meet the minor’s parents. That’s just part of being a teenager.
I meant “been around any…” I swear I did.
Great, now I’ve grossed myself out.
NWO genuinely doesn’t seem to understand the distinction between “getting millions of mammograms is dangerous” and “getting *a* mammogram is dangerous.”
Yes, a mammogram raises your cancer risk. Slightly. Getting one a year, or every several years, is such a slight risk that it’s worth it in the number of cancers detected.
…therefore, please don’t fuck highschoolers?
It’s fortunate I wasn’t drinking anything during this thread, or I would have spit it all over my keyboard at ngz3120’s “Holly, age doesn’t equal control and control isn’t always bad. Lolita for example…” and “My current same age partner, likes to role play a 15 year old girl being taught by me, a man more than twice her age. It is a fantasy that she had that went unfulfilled you see.”
Sadly, Holly already made the point about puppy play. But there was a HUGE thread on Fetlife a while back where a woman was afraid ageplay senarios (which are carried out between people of legal age of consent) led to pedophilia. So confusion between fantasy and reality isn’t just limited to the MRA.
NWO’s “Guv contract a certain percentage of high paid employee’s must be women in order to either stay in business or get those Guv contracts” also amused me because I *have* held jobs where government contracts were applied for. In the end, it comes down to how successful the business is (though it would have been MUCH less boring if I’d been taken in front of a tribunal of high-powered lesbians instead of collecting financial data from the last two years!)
@papr1ka…The only study you could possibly show me of any relevance would have to be.
1)The number of MAMs done in conjunction with cancer rate.
Example: Number of women who’ve been diagnosed with cancer after 5/10/15/20/25/30/35 ect. MAMs.
Now you would think that a study like that would be proof that there was no danger. Try and find me one like that.
@Plymouth…But don’t you see something inherently wrong with hiring qualified women over men who are equally qualified or may even be better qualified. If a company has an add for a person of my skills, (of which I have been told by the recruiter that they were looking for a woman). I already know as the personel who was hiring told me I was perfect for the job. I was the wrong gender, the woman that they hired wasn’t even in my league of experience or ability. I find that to be a problem.
@Bee, that age gap may have been too much for you but not for everyone. A man goes to jail if he disagrees. For a man it’s statutory rape, for a woman it’s sexual misconduct.
No, you’re more like Humbert Humbert without the intelligence, eloquence and love of language.
NWO, in all but 7 states in the U.S. there is nothing preventing you from pursuing a romantic relationship with a 17 year old.
Hey, NWO, what’s the difference between love, sex, and rape?
“@Bee, that age gap may have been too much for you but not for everyone. A man goes to jail if he disagrees. For a man it’s statutory rape, for a woman it’s sexual misconduct.”
No, that’s true. A zillion apologies if anyone thought I was saying that no one who is 30 should ever date anyone who is 50, lest exposure to turkeyneck ensue. I was only relating my own experience, and kind of marveling at your idea that a 17-year-old girl may be a good lovematch for 50-year-old you.
As to the law being different for male child molesters and female child molesters, or men being sent to jail for mere disagreement, I can say only that you are bullshit. I think we’ve already been over why this is, but let me know if you need a reminder.
Wow, I go to get a pedicure*, and Slavey’s accusing me of spreading hatred and clutching his pearls over the word “fuck.”
Well, Slavey, I don’t hate men. I don’t hate MRAs, even. I pity them.
*Not really, but that’s all he thinks we do.
Why are you so coy about your age, NWO?
I’m 40. Now you tell yours.
Pop quiz: What is the age of consent?&dag;
NWO’s examples are, in the main, false because there are places (and quite a few) in the US where the age of consent is not higher than 16. Some of those are, “window of consent” (for want of a better term) where the bright line isn’t quite so bright, if the participants are in a given age range.
Hawai’i only recently raised the age of consent to 16, from 14.
So, in most of the US, irrespective of the ability to love (which isn’t what we are talking about, age of consent it the legal privilege of being able to fuck with any other person who is of the age of consent; love has nothing to do with it), a 30 year old can have sex with a 16 year old.
There are 11 states which are 18 (well, 10, plus DC). There are 7 which are at 17. That leaves 25 which are at 16. The majority of states have an age gap provision, and a significant number have a legal defense of “mistaken age”.
Which makes the whole thing a bit creepier… this isn’t saying, “18 is a poor cutoff” but 16 and 17 are.
None of this, perforce, takes into account the experiential gap which means someone who is in their 30s has a much easier time of convincing someone in their teens to have sex.
Since the author of that screed also thinks, “Game is good” we can presume (contra NWO) that love isn’t in the equation, it’s all about “fuck-em and forget-em”. I’ll wager he was also a fan of “paper abortions”.
&dag;Age of consent chart, by state, with age gap and mistaken age lists
@Molly Ren … “Hey, NWO, what’s the difference between love, sex, and rape?”
According to feminist doctrine, nothing.
Bee … “As to the law being different for male child molesters and female child molesters, or men being sent to jail for mere disagreement, I can say only that you are bullshit. I think we’ve already been over why this is, but let me know if you need a reminder.”
Yea you’re right, what wasssss I thinking. The law is exactly the same for men and women.
“@Molly Ren … ‘Hey, NWO, what’s the difference between love, sex, and rape?’
“According to feminist doctrine, nothing.”
I was asking what YOU thought of those terms, Slavey.
Hey Pecunium, I found a slightly different chart: http://www.webistry.net/jan/consent.html
But the gist was/is the same. So, again, NWO: what’s the problem? In most states you will absolutely not go to jail for having a consensual sexual relationship with a 17 year old.
How, exactly, is feminism keeping you from doing so?
I mean, you already seem to think love = sex, Slavey.
The laws are the same; the application sometimes differs.
And for the record , I disapprove.
Age of consent laws exist and when they are broken by women with young teenage boys I believe that it is a miscarriage of justice for the woman in question to receive a lighter sentence than a man would get for the same offense. I also think it’s fucking absurd that if a woman has sex with a 14 year old boy and gets pregnant, he will then be on the hook for child support.
Just like Romeo and Juliet clauses allowed mitigation in regards to age of consent, I think states need to take a serious look at the laws which would hold a 14 year old accountable for children produced as the result of a sexual relationship with a grown woman and make some adjustments.
That’s bullshit.
@Pecunium … “None of this, perforce, takes into account the experiential gap which means someone who is in their 30s has a much easier time of convincing someone in their teens to have sex.”
Would this be that power dynamic thingy again you’ve been indoctrinated to accept?
Ya know pre 100 years or so ago it was a given that men normally married women younger than themselves, by quite a few years. It musta been the patriarchal power and control wheel in it’s early stages.
NWO, feminism is not stopping you from pursuing romantic relationships with 17 year olds.
Wow…. came back from the meet up (which went great! :3 ) and 4 pages of NWO (the actual NWO this time, cuz there were 3 trolls! ) vs um… D-Generation XX? :3
The interesting part about this whole thing is that I actually have no real strong opinions about age of consent laws except that I think our society rly needs to have an honest discussion about consent and age restriction laws (and by consent I dun mean just sex, I mean at what age can you give informed consent about your body and identity… abortion, medication, transition, name change, tattoos, piercings, hair removal, cosmestic surgery, smoking, drinking, etc)… I just feel that sometimes, cuz the ppl who are argue are like some of the trolls here and the OP, who think it’s all about them, and all about letting men have the youngest girls (and when did love suddenly enter into it? xD w/ all the talk of women being unable to love, just wanting reproduction, game, female hindbrains wanting sex, PUA, why can’t men just get sex from women, having sex with old women are yuck, saggy loose vaginas, judging Ozy’s looks and age, etc etc… suddenly it’s all about emotions and pure love, and this has nothing to do w/ wanting to have sex with a young body at ALL? xD ) that it becomes this big fight where it’s “well they can’t consent to other things at 16!” or “they can’t sign contracts” b/c you’re trying to beat back ppl who seem to think age of consent/maturity laws are all about their ability to have sex w/ young girls (and oddly, usually there are exceptions meant to protect boys, like the OP going all weaselly about “well women never mature past puberty…” or the laws that keep the age of consent for sodomy at 18 or ban it all together)
And I get those feelings :\ But to me, the bigger thing is about people and their rights, and right to make their own decisions, and give informed consent to things that might lead to bad ends, or that people disapprove of or worry that they don’t know what they are doing, or that they are deemed legally unable to handle. And I get that there might v well be different ages for different things, but I think a lot of the time, we’re working from a base that the laws we have aren’t arbitrary but the default, and we need to argue good reasons why to lower them, when maybe we should just start from “okay what SHOULD be the age for each thing”. :] And if somebody is mature enough to make some decisions relating to their body, then should they be able to make other ones? And why not if not?
This isn’t trolling… it rly is something I find fascinating and also I think IMPORTANT, b/c I think as a society, we do need to figure this stuff out, b/c it’s not as simple as just “the pervs want young girls, so we have to say no” when holding the firm line of “no they are too immature to consent to nething w/ their bodies” might be rly unfair and taking away the right of people to make choices relating to their lives, bodies and what they put in them, or etc… (tattoos, piercings, etc… are the milder ones… sexuality, transition, surgery, abortion, etc.. are the bigger scarier ones).. how old you have to be to consent to porn, and if taking naked pictures of yourself and sending them out is the same as being able to consent to go into the porn industry and sign a contract w/ a company.. etc etc
But I feel like it’s rly impossible to have a discussion when you’ve got ppl who aren’t seeing this as “how old until we believe human beings are able to make their own choices, control their own bodies, etc” and see it all about them and their right to have sex w/ nebody they want to (kinda like if rather than it be about whether a 16 y/o should be able to consent to MMA, or playing hockey, if their parents won’t let them, it’s about some guy who says “I RLY WANT TO BE ABLE TO PUT A SIXTEEN Y/O IN A LEG LOCK, WHY CAN’T I!?” ) I feel like this isn’t about what we as ppl who are all over 18 (and in many cases 21) want, it should be about what rights human beings have and when they should have them, and why. Ppl make decisions we don’t like or think they haven’t thought thru all the time, the question is when can we say “you’re too immature, and that’s why you don’t know” and when it’s “i don’t agree w/ it and I dun think you know what you’re doing, but it’s your body and your life”? (in SOME cases, even as an adult, our society and our laws still say we can’t do what we want w/ our own bodies and that wanting it proves that we’re not mentally stable enuf to know that’s what we want)
I rly hope ppl dun think that this is trolling, or I’m asking dishonest questions that I alrdy have a strong opinion on or will play devil’s advocate or nething -_-;;; In fact, when I say we as a society need to have a discussion, I dun even mean HERE. I mean IRL, we rly do need to decide when ppl can consent to what and what distinctions there are and why these distinctions exist, and etc etc… cuz this does affect a lot of young ppl, and it’s not about older ppl and what older ppl want to do w/ them (sex, possible exploitation) or think their lives should be (contracts) or their choices (contraception) or who they are (transition) … it should be about when people are able to make choices for themselves, and that we believe they can give informed consent about their bodies, their identity and their lives. :]
@Nobinayamu…You can pay all the lip service you want, it means zilcho. Thats feminist jurisprudence hard at work. Even a little boy is held accountable for a grown womans actions.
If you read Slavey’s comments in the voice of Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons they’re a lot funnier.
@NWO:
Pre 100 years ago, it was common practice to employ children in factories where they worked long hours with little pay at great risk of injury. That must be perfectly fine too. Damn you modern day feminists to refuse to employ a willing, very mature 12-year old to stick his/her fingers into moving machinery to remove clogs.
Well there ya go Kirbywarp, good analogy.
@Graham:
“The nineteen hundreds. Best. Time. Ever.”
@NWO:
Please say you’re joking. Please.
NWO, I see that you can still read my posts. What’s stopping you from pursuing a relationship with a 17 year old? ‘Cause it sure ain’t feminism.
Now, provide evidence that the age of consent laws were created and set in place by feminists. As far as I can tell age of consent laws have been on the books since well before the 20th century.
As for paying lip service, since I am not a political figure and have no say in writing legislation, stating my opinions strongly and consistently is about all I can do at the moment. As I have no interest in pursuing a career in politics, I’ll have to research what the laws are in my city and maybe start a petition if warranted.
What will you do about it? Your usual nothing?
NWO, in all but 7 states in the U.S. there is nothing preventing you from pursuing a romantic relationship with a 17 year old.
Well, nothing apart from the fact that most 17 year old girls want nothing to do with middle-aged losers. But I guess that counts as ‘feminism?’
“The laws are the same; the application sometimes differs.”
Well, sure. I was taking issue with Subby’s contention that there is a statute out there that gives different names to the same act, depending on the sex of the offender.
“And for the record , I disapprove.”
Yeah, me too. I’ve said it a buncha times. I kind of feel like a broken record sometimes, with the amount of handholding and reassurance MRAs require feminists to give before they’ll kind of admit that maybe not all feminists hate all men all the time.
NWO: (not that you are willing to admit you are reading me now) Here’s a question for you.
If the charts Dave referred you too are wrong (what with being longitudinal studies of populations, and all) Where are you getting the data to support your claims for entire populations (as opposed to single persons). After all, Benjamin Jonson (son of Ben Jonson, the playwright poet) died at age 5. Hamnet (son of Shakespeare…same timeframe as Ben Jonson) died at age 11. Shakespeare died in his fifties. Thomas Nashe was in his middle thirties. All of them lived in the same time period, so I guess in Elizabethan times people died young.
That, or your inummeracy, and pigheaded refusal to admit you have a problem with basic arithmetic is making you look like a fool, again.
Or, we could take option B… You know the facts, and are choosing to lie.
SallyStrange: The logical outcome of David’s views is the enslavement of all women.
You don’t need to extrapolate. He has said he thinks women should be either killed off, or enslaved. He makes no bones about it. Go look at the comments he left in children of Dudes
So that if ppl DO say nething, it doesn’t seem like my responses are prepared or meant to troll them -_-;; like if somebody said something and I said “but what about if a 16 y/o had a 30 y/o or 50 y/o psychiatrist who supported them in wanting to take hormone blockers? I’m sure ppl who think transition is disgusting would say that the adult is manipulating the child and using their depression/desires/immaturity/etc to coerce them…” I dun want ppl to think that’s a dishonest response that I’m like “BUT WHAT IF BUT WHAT IF!?”
So I’m putting that out now. As not just a what if, but something that does happen IRL all the time. :\ (or the REVERSE, in the case of ppl like Dr. Zucker at CAMH who will convince young ppl NOT to transition) Or on abortion? (and whether a 16 y/o CAN get an abortion in practical terms b/c the s- our society shouldn’t be throwing at them, but does, isn’t the same as whether we think thye legally can decide for themselves what to do w/ their bodies :| )
I’m not saying btw “I think that your arguments for an 18 y/o age of consent for sex means that you support this” but again, this IS something that’s rly complex and also important to me, (b/c body autonomy, and the rights of human beings to decide their own bodies and personal choices (as long as it doesn’t assault others rights to their own bodies, etc) is one of the basic things I believe in) and I want to hear what ppl have to say about it, cuz I honestly, don’t have any strong idea of where the “line” legally should be drawn. (and cards on the table, yus I do question 18, NOT b/c I think 18 is necessarily too high, I just don’t see it as the necessary starting place default where ppl have to prove why things shouldn’t be that high “to be safe” since it’s not our lives, it’s the lives of younger ppl, I dun think it’s fair to them just set everything at an arbitrary number for our own comfort)
Nobinayamu, If I had stated the same thing, in fact I may copy and paste; using it at a later date. This same crew wil mock and vilify me. The fly off on tangents the span the range of all life’s experience.
How do I know this? Becuase I’ve said pretty much the same in the past. The responses were always the same. You don’t think women get punished for anything. You can’t understand your white male privilege. You think the law lets women do what ever they want. Waaa, Waaa, Waaaa.
Half the time I think all of you simple copy and paste your power dynamic arguement from one post to the next. Everytime it’s always the same power dynamic privilege nonsense. Toss in a cis something or other, slide in ableism with a touch of kyriarchy for seasoning, let simmer and you’re golden.
Amiangel, I don’t think you’re trolling. The thing is age of consent laws are arbitrary. And I think that, regardless of discussion, they always will be. Because people are not all at the same. Levels of maturity vary, family relationships vary wildly, parent/child relationships do not all follow the same clear paths. My sister sees patients that are 16 years old and have paws tattooed on their boobs. On their boobs. She asks them -well she used to ask them- how they were able to get a tattoo and they say that their mom/dad gave them permission.
She’d look over at the parent in question and they’d give her the Kanye shrug. They did give permission. If I’d asked my folks for a tattoo when I was 16 they’d have laughed in my face. That doesn’t make my parents good or bad. Doesn’t make the parents of the 16 year old with the boob paws tattoo good or bad either. Not necessarily. There are so many factors.
And, yeah people like NWO and the dude from the original post don’t really care about these factors or the implications. They want to have sex with 14 year old girls. They’ll tell you with a straight face that girls as young as 12 used to be married off and it was perfectly normal. The myriad ways in which our society has advanced since the days when 12 year olds were routinely married off will never enter their thought process. Let alone where we begin to define autonomy.
So, it’s complicated. And I certainly don’t mind the idea of having a reasoned and reasonable discussion.
@Pecunium oddly I posted the age of consent for Canada and all of the states that had 16 as the age of consent, as well as the wiki article outlining the age of consent laws for NA and the various exceptions to them… and yet a lot of this argument has been as if most of the states is 18 o_o;; also love.. which as I said above, amuses me xD
It’s Sailor NWO! xDDD
Ami, I was literally just drafting a comment to say what you wrote! Age of consent & personal autonomy is an extremely sticky issue. Weird things can happen, like a case I read about a few years ago where two 16-year-olds had consensual sex and were charged with raping each other (?!), and the mess when schools and lawmakers were trying to deal with sexting.
Problem is, our main opponents on *here* frame it with so many other scary ideas about a woman’s place in the world that we can’t have a real discussion. : /
@Ami:
I don’t think anybody thinks you’re trolling. And I for one would like age of consent for nearly everything to be settled once and for all, and to not continue lugging the baggage of ancient prejudice and ignorance around. So yeah, the issue needs discussing, but NWO is obsessed with a particularly black-and-white interpretation of the world, and we’re having fun mocking him for it. :P
@Nobinayamu but that’s w/ parental consent :\ What if the parent doesn’t consent, or wants something done to the child that everybody agrees is good but the child doesn’t? For tattoos it’s trivial, but there are other things that are not trivial and has lasting consequences for that person and their body (and future body) :\
The funny part of the “in the past daughters were married off at 12/14 etc” is that it belies the whole “you’re condescending girls, you dun think they can make their own decisions!” b/c being married off to a person that a parent chose for you is the opposite of arguing that young ppl should be able to make their own decisions and not have their autonomy restricted by parents, authority, etc xD which does imply the important part is “I want to have sex w/ whoever want” and not body autonomy xD