Men’s Rights Classix: The Age of Consent is Misandry
If it weren't for this guy, there would be no pedophiles.
Today, a trip down memory lane to revisit an until-recently lost classic of modern misogyny: Jay Hammers’ “The Age of Consent is Misandry.” The piece, originally published on Jay Hammers’Men’s Rights blog, inspired some heated discussions amongst MRAs online, with some harshly criticizing the piece as an apologia for pedophilia and others hailing it as a “politically incorrect” masterpiece. Stung by the criticism, Hammers ultimately took his blog down. But the piece has since been resurrected on the Human-Stupidity blog – another blog that seems rather unhealthily obsessed with the supposed injustice of men not being allowed to fuck underage girls.
Here are some of its highlights (that is, lowlights); the headlines are mine.
ALL ABOUT THE MENZ
The arbitrary age of consent is not about protecting women/girls. It is about valuing females and their virtue over males and their freedom. The intent of the laws is to stop older men from having sex with younger women and that is how it is enforced. It was never intended to stop younger men from having sex with older women.
MORE BETA BLUES
Age of consent laws are designed to punish beta males. A beta male in his 20s, unsuccessful with women his own age who are infused with a sense of feminist entitlement and deride all but the top alpha males who take interest in them, who seeks companionship with a younger, sexually mature female who desires him, should not go to prison for acting on that which is normal male sexuality.
FEMINISTS WHO SUPPORT AGE OF CONSENT LAWS ARE TREATING WOMEN LIKE CHILDREN
If we are to treat women as children then we should be consistent. Young women who have sex with older men are as much victims as women who have sex with a pick-up artist after meeting at a club. In both cases, feminists are angry because the woman has been “fooled” into having sex with a less than ideal mate in terms of value. …
This is what makes feminists angry and this is why age of consent exists still today, because it is assumed women are not mentally mature enough to give consent AND because older women want to limit men’s options to increase their own value in the sexual marketplace.
BUT WOMEN ARE CHILDREN, BASICALLY
Older women … are generally not of a much higher intelligence level than teenage girls. The big difference between the two is that older women are less attractive and that is what makes them so damn angry. …
Females generally do not significantly mature mentally past puberty so it should always be illegal for any woman to have sex or it should never be illegal for any woman to have sex. There is no arbitrary age where females suddenly become self-aware, realizing the consequences of their actions, and stop seeking out alpha males. Thus there must not be an arbitrary age of consent for sex.
A MODEST PROPOSAL
If anything, it should be illegal for women to have sex with men until men have been educated on the truths of women, Marriage 2.0, Game, feminism, and men’s rights.
Discuss?
Posted on June 18, 2011, in alpha males, antifeminism, beta males, creepy, internal debate, misandry, misogyny, MRA, PUA, rapey. Bookmark the permalink. 890 Comments.
Sorry, I forgot step 3:
3) Profit!!!!!
Hey Bee, go get a mamography every month. I’ll bet you get breast cancer within 5 years. Prove me wrong.
Doesn’t matter if he is thinking about it or not. A sixteen year old can’t even legally sign a cell phone contract. Why should we expect them to better negotiate something like safe sex or no sex if they don’t want to?If there’s a pregnancy, they cannot even establish their own household. Even if the sixteen year old has a job they cannot legally sign a contract, like an apartment lease. Should the age for these things be lowered as well then?
It apparently does cross the mind of some men, since for a portion of the MRA set women should be submissive. Why a need for submission if it’s just about love?
If the world were the way DKM wants the only consent is given by a father when he gives the young girl to her husband.
Xtra…can a 16 year old girl get an abortion? How’d that happen?
Plymouth, I love that. Seriously, my folks are engineers and my father tells some variation of that joke all the time. Of course, he’s actually joking and believes in science but it always cracks my mom up.
Hey, Bee. I don’t know if I find Meller refreshing and saying that I “kind of like” him may have been a bit too flippant in tone. It’s kind of complicated…
I won’t presume to speak for all Black people but, in my experience as a Black woman who lives a life that is significantly less socially segregated than is standard, I meet a lot of White people who will say incredibly racist shit right to my face and insist that they mean no harm. And this runs the gamut from insensitive questions that assume I must have children, or that I’m the nanny of my friend’s son (small annoyances) to things like “Nobinayamu, you’re Black and you and your family seem like nice people. What’s up with all those lazy ass Black people in the ghetto?” Don’t even get me started on some of the bigotry within progressive politics.
Which is all just to say that there’s always something a little, well -yeah- refreshing for all that the word feels inappropriate- to the kind of Archie Bunker style bigotry of someone like Meller.
NWO, first of all it’s mammogram. Mammogram.
And no doctor recommends that any woman receive mammograms on a monthly basis.
Nobinayamu…Would that racist shit consist of talking about white male privilege?
I’m not getting into this “life expectancy” irrelevancy, but:
A) If a 14-year-old girl is just as mature as a 20-year-old woman, why not fuck 20-year-olds? This “women don’t mature anyway” bullshit, besides being ridiculous on its face, seems to coexist as doublethink with “but it’s best to get the very youngest ones!”
B) This kind of bullshit is why the MRA can’t do anything for men’s rights. As long as “men have the right to fuck teenagers!” is treated as a legitimate cause alongside “men have the right to fair prison sentences!”, by the same people and without internal criticism–it’s really, really hard to get anyone to take you seriously about the prison sentences or think that you’re serious political advocates.
Why no Nobinayamu? Is it because it’s radiation. Big Daddy wants to help, right? Poor black women get em for free. Is the early detection really the cause?
Holly Pervocracy…So if a man loves a woman who happens to be 16 and he is 30, you say his love is wrong?
Why must a man love who you dictate and at what age?
Oh, back to abortion.
Let’s try this, NWO.
Let’s say you fall in pure, pure love with a 14 year old girl -and you aren’t living in South Carolina, Idaho, or Utah- and she returns your feelings. You know, you were just hanging out by the Junior High School one afternoon, right around 3:30 pm. She came out of the building laughing and joking with her friends about Glee and texting her boyfriend about meeting up at the mall. Your eyes lock. She abandons her friends, comes over to you, blinks innocently, and asks for a ride home. She’s enthralled and beguiled by your middle-aged charms.
You begin to pick her up after school regularly but, because she’s underaged your careful to drop her a block or so from home. Your intentions are noble, of course, but you wouldn’t want anyone getting the wrong idea. You stop by the Sonic every afternoon and discuss the Rothschilds and the world debt clock. She thinks you’re the most fascinating man she’s ever met. Your love is pure. There’s some hand-holding. A few innocent pecks. It progresses to heavy petting. You’re certain she’s the one and she wants nothing more than to be with you too.
When do you drop her off directly in front of her house, ring the doorbell, and as her parents for permission to date their daughter?
Nobinayamu – I’m an engineer too, so, yeah, that :) I actually used to work on missiles and people would call me a “rocket scientist” and I would always correct them “No, I’m a rocket engineer!” which was mostly a joke (I wasn’t offended to be called a rocket scientist but it did make me wonder why that became such a common catchphrase when most of rocketry is engineering).
Hey, NWO, did I mention White privilege? No? Then it’s safe to say that, that’s not what I’m talking about.
Plymouth…AA paid good dividends for you, huh? Did you get the job on merit or quota?
You know what’s funny? Teenagers are terrible at sex.
I mean, if your main aim in sex is “conquest,” then I guess anyone who lets you technically stick it in them will do, but if you have any aspirations to sensuality… that’s a skill that comes from experience and maturity. As a teenager, I gave the toothiest blowjobs, the floppiest handjobs, the awkwardest and least active fucks of my life, I was too insecure and self-conscious to really lose myself in sex, my idea of talking dirty was “you’re SURE I’m not too fat? augh you think I’m fat” and I didn’t have a good idea of what my own kinks were or how a partner should please me.
As I’ve gotten more experienced–both in sex and simply in life–I’ve gotten better. At 25, I’m still baby-faced and certainly not some menopausal old lady, and I’m way, way better at sex.
Why would a grownup, with grownup expectations and standards, want to fuck a teenager?
Plymouth, my father seriously tried to discourage me from studying law (point of order: I am not a lawyer) by patiently explaining that it was ridiculous for the daughter of two engineers (and a bunch more in the family) to even consider becoming a lawyer. His reason? “Lawyers do nothing but create problems. Engineering exists to fix problems.”
True story.
NWO, aspirin can help alleviate the pain associated with headaches. So, if you have a bad headache you should take 3 times the recommended dose, right? If two will alleviate the pressure then ten should assure that you never have a headache again.
Is this your understanding of how medicine works?
Nobinayamu, Luckily you’ve done research on chemical composition and know exactly what you’re pouring into your body. Good for you.
If the sixteen year old has the money and ability to get to an abortion clinic. Due to abortion clinics having difficulty operating they are usually hard to get to. Then again if the 16 year old is dating a 30 year old man he’d probably be able to pay for it and drive her, unlike if she was seeing someone her own age that would have limited income and less probability of having a vehicle.
There are still plenty of women carrying unwanted pregnancies to term so you can relax.
Poor black woman here, I have never been offered the free holocaust mammogram. There must have been an oversight. A big one because all the other poor black women I know have never had a mammogram either. Or is NWO giving inside information from whitey headquarters?
Bull fuckin’ Shit on NWO’s “what if it’s pure love?” deal.
Because nothing at 16 is pure love. This is just my belief, but I don’t think that at 16 you’re capable of truly mature love–the kind of love where you understand your lover as a person with faults and strengths, not any kind of perfect ideal. Even if you later grow to love the same person in an adult way, your love at 16 is colored by immaturity and inexperience.
At 16, at least in US culture, love is painfully idealized. It takes time, and maybe getting burnt a couple times, to learn how to love someone not in a “bed covered in rose petals” way but in a “pick him up at the dentist and give him a Slushee” way.
And for a 30-year-old, who should know better, to take advantage of someone in the rose-petal stage of understanding love is just skeevy. It’s dishonest. At best it’s exploiting immature love because you just want a worshipper and can’t (or won’t) stand up to the demands of adult love, and more often it’s exploiting immature love for a cheap fuck.
No, I’m actually wiling to say it, a 16-year-old and a 30-year-old cannot have pure true love.
NWO, changing the subject doesn’t actually make you right. It’s a petty diversion tactic intended to distract from the fact that, once again, I have asked a question that you cannot or will not answer.
Medicine is not perfect. It isn’t always right. It has made mistakes and will continue to make mistakes. Medicine is based in science with the objective of healing. Most of the time. Medicine is not perfect.
That does not make it a farce.
How do you reconcile your deep concern for the well-being of children with your belief that medicine is a farce?
Nobinayamu: Nah, I get it. I may have been too flippant in bouncing off your comment, when the point I really wanted to make was more personal: I really, really find him disturbing.
But I think I get the point you’re making too. It is at least something different to hear such vile stuff coming from someone in a more or less unapologetic manner. No backpedaling. And when I say I “get” it, I mean I “get” it in as much as I can. That’s part of why the privilege discussion of the past few days has been really agonizing for me. I’m privileged in that I don’t have to think about that shit (by which I mean the shit that you’re talking about) all the time, y’know? Like the damali ayo thing … I never have to worry about being the example someone holds up as proof that they’re not racist, or have someone ask me to make a statement for this wide group of people that I’ve somehow become the representative for. And as a white person, I sincerely try not to take that for granted, but I know I’m not as sensitive to racial issues as I should be. And I need to get better at that.
Subby: I’ve had a lot of x-rays for various health issues in the past. Thanks for bringing it up!
Xtra, NWO assumes that all women and ethnic minorities get everything for free. See: countless of his posts on this board or his most recent assumption that Plymouth’s job is a result of Affirmative Action.
Obviously, being both Black and a woman means that you never have to work a day in your life. Mammograms, Prius’, and groceries are given out free daily. I’ll email you the “Black women get free shit,” number.
Alright, NWO seems to have gone into meltdown. He’s no longer arguing any points, he’s just taking comments at random and attacking them. Also… NWO IS A YOUNG EARTH CREATIONIST?!?!??
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
This… Is… AWESOME! NWO, please please PLEASE debate science, evolution, and the age of the earth with me or anyone else who is knowledgable! On the open thread though, just for the sake of politeness.
OT: Age of consent laws are tricky for me. I’d agree with a hard deadline at 16, even though that still seems too young to me. It seems like a good compromise between allowing a child to grow up mentally and not prosecuting kids who have sex before they are 18. If two kids are both around the same age, I think there is much more wiggle room since, like someone else said, there is much less chance of an unhealthy power dynamic going on. But sex isn’t the most important thing in the world, and if you have to wait a few years to let the love of your life reach the age where she/he can make decisions, why not wait? Children honestly don’t have much in the way of perspective, and you need a lot of that to deal with the wonderful yet tricky world that is sex.
Holly, I think the MRAs would like to fuck a teenager, because a teenager wouldn’t be able to point out their shortcomings in the bedroom. These guys have such stunted ideas about sex/sexuality/women, they’re almost bonsai trees. I can’t imagine they’d be any good in bed.
Hellkell – I can’t imagine they know what “good in bed” even means. When sex is so wrapped up in status and power, the actual content of the sex itself is secondary. Who you stick it in is such an object of neurosis to these guys, that I assume they haven’t given ten seconds thought to how you stick it in.
Holly Pervocracy, Than you presume to dictate what a man is emotionally capable of. A 30 year old man should “know better” than what? To love someone?
Nobinayamu, My advice to you is do a little research. Mammographies use ionized radiation. Ionized radiation collects in fatty tissue, (weird huh, exactly where they aim). This radiation is cumulative and never goes away. Further each shot of ionized radiation will naturally attach to the already present spots of irradiated tissue. The more mammographies you get the more likely you are to get cancer.
The best preventative advice you can get is…….don’t get tested.
But really, I think it’s less about “teenagers don’t see your shortcomings in the bedroom” and more about “teenagers don’t see your shortcomings as a person.” If you treat a grown woman like a sex object or servant, she’s liable to wise up; an insecure and inexperienced teenager is much easier to manipulate into thinking that this is okay and that she’s lucky to be your sex object.
Bee, no worries at all. I didn’t think you were being flippant; I thought I was.
See, I’m deeply aware of my own kind of privilege. And I do worry that the very things about my background and achievements that allow me to both debate and laugh at bigotry also prevent me from being sensitive to others’ abject disgust.
Sometimes I worry when I use humor or don’t take others feelings into consideration. I wanted to be sure that I wasn’t repeating that mistake.
NWOslave:
You are being thick. A 30 year old man can’t always help who he loves, but he can help what he does with that love. Holly is saying that a 30 year old man should know that a 16 year old girl isn’t mature enough to really understand what love and sex means, and therefore should be perfectly willing to wait a couple years before trying to have sex with her.
Holly, the reason a grown up with grown up expectations would want to fuck a 16 year old is this…
Because the 16 year old is NOT a grown up with grown up expectations, and will be blown over by the fact that a mature person is a) interested in them (“When they could be with someone their own age! They know that I’m super mature!”) b) has a car and/or doesn’t live with their parents c) can provide things that a peer lover can’t (“OMG, beer!”). The immature partner does not have the experience or expectations to ask questions, to make demands, or to look at the larger picture and think “wait, there’s something wrong here.” The immature partner cannot be an equal partner either intellectually or socially. Thats why the older party wants them. Partners in their own peer group are too challenging, expect too much, and they know they can’t meet those expectations.
NWO – It’s more like I presume to know what a 16-year-old is capable of. If a 30-year-old man really loves a girl, the kind of love that’s about “I want the best for you” rather than “I want to have you”, then he keeps his goddamn dick out of her.
“I love you so much that I have to fuck you,” is teenager logic, and thus is only honest when expressed between two teenagers.
hellkell….”Holly, I think the MRAs would like to fuck a teenager, because a teenager wouldn’t be able to point out their shortcomings in the bedroom. These guys have such stunted ideas about sex/sexuality/women, they’re almost bonsai trees. I can’t imagine they’d be any good in bed.”
@Holly Pervocracy…”Hellkell – I can’t imagine they know what “good in bed” even means. When sex is so wrapped up in status and power, the actual content of the sex itself is secondary. Who you stick it in is such an object of neurosis to these guys, that I assume they haven’t given ten seconds thought to how you stick it in.”
Hatred in, Hatred out.
“Lawyers do nothing but create problems. Engineering exists to fix problems.”
Your farther was right.
On topic: The age of consent is 14 in Germany and ,as far as I know, it works pretty well. The vast majority of adult men are simply not interested in dating 14 year old girls. (Personally I’m quite happy if I don’t have to deal with annoying teenagers at all.) Also teenage pregnancies are pretty rare here compared to the US, as well as new cases of STIs among teenagers and young adults. So I don’t think lowering the age of consent ,even as low as 14, necessarily results in abuse and unwanted pregnancies.
I don’t hate men, NWO. I hate MRAs.
World of difference, believe me.
NWO:
So, hatred is coming out of hellkell and holly because… MRAs are putting hate in? Or because you are putting hate in?
NWO, are you going to answer my question? When do you ask the 14 year old love of your life’s parents for permission to date and have sex with their daughter? Since the age of consent laws are arbitrary and their love is pure.
As for your beliefs about MAMMOGRAMS (Mammographies? Really?) let me just say this: One of my best friends is a Radiation Oncologist. I know, I know; even typing that seems crazy and like it can’t be true. Still, it is true. She’s one of my best friends, I’ve known her since she began Medical School and through her residency. In fact, I spent I did consulting work with her department.
NWO, you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. Mammograms do not create breast cancer. The idea that if every woman avoids mammograms then no women will get breast cancer is so unbelievably stupid…
NWO, did women get breast cancer before mammogram technology was available?
To be specific, I don’t even necessarily hate people who are in favor of men’s rights.
I hate people who are in favor of men’s rights to fuck high-schoolers.
Also, I’ve figured out NWO’s trick. He ignores questions he doesn’t have a nice easy answer to for as long as he can, while spitting out rhetorical or really dumb questions of his own. Finally, when people get fed up with him, he can point to all the questions he ignored and say “look how many questions you guys expect me to answer!” and then points to the really pointless ones he asks and says “look at how nobody seems to answer me!” It’s kinda clever, it its own twisted fashion.
See Holly, NWO is a middle-aged man who wants to have sex with 14 year olds. So he knows more about the subject than any of us possibly could.
Now I, on the other hand, was just a 14 year old girl once who was constantly getting propositioned by older men? Obviously, my own experiences count for nothing.
“The best preventative advice you can get is…….don’t get tested.”
Science (you know, the stuff that’s based in fact, data, and research–as opposed to your bizarre interpretation of it) suggests that the risk of developing cancer as a result of regularly getting a mammogram is extremely, extremely tiny in comparison to the benefits of mammography. That is, so long as one starts getting mammograms at an appropriate age. Unless a person is predisposed to being highly at risk of developing breast cancer, it’s generally recommended that people don’t start getting mammograms until a little later in life, when the radiation risk posed by the procedure is significantly outweighed by the positive impact that breast cancer screening can have.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9709287
http://www.annals.org/content/146/7/516.full
Don’t you just love empirical data?
NWOSlave – I am a good engineer. I have solved real problems and been praised on the merits of my work. I am not the best at everything, and I’ve fucked up on occasion too and been called on it, and nobody said “well it’s OK that you designed that tube wrong – you’re a girl” or even “of course you designed that tube wrong – you’re a girl”. I can be honest with myself and say I wasn’t very good as a design engineer, which is the first thing I went into out of school. I figured that out and became a test engineer instead and that is something my brain is WAY better suited to. And none of the companies I’ve worked for even HAVE quotes. So I know I didn’t get my job due to quotas.
Can I definitively say no boss of mine ever in the back of his mind said “if I hire her it will look good to our diversity team so I will”? Of course not. The same way I can’t definitively say that none of the people who chose not to hire me never thought “Girls can never be good at engineering so of course I won’t hire her”. I don’t know of a case where either of those things happened to me but it’s entirely possible they both have.
The point of affirmative action is to make it so that the former counteracts the latter and everyone gets a fair chance. Does it always balance out perfectly? No, of course not. But over time as attitudes change it gets better. But I know that’s way too subtle for you to understand because you’re such a black and white kinda guy.
Since MRA’s hate feminists, that would have to be the hate in part.
Nobinayamu – I was a 15-year-old girl who had sex with a guy in his 20s, and I regret it. At the time I saw him as a guy who had a car and could stay out as late as he wanted and could buy booze and porn; I didn’t see him as what he was–a person so lacking in boundaries, empathy, and responsibility that no woman in her 20s would come near him.
(Note, on a completely different topic, that even though I regretted the sex, I not only forgot to accuse him of rape, I actually refused to cooperate in prosecuting him for the statutory rape that he had actually committed. I kept a man out of jail even though I regretted the sex! WACKYPANTS!)
Oh but I do know that the last time my current boss interviewed candidates for a position in his group he interviewed two men and one woman. One of the men was the most qualified candidate and he offered the job to that man. We did it as a team interview and I was on the interview team and the boss took input from everyone on the team but ultimately it was his decision. If he had hired the less qualified woman I suppose I might wonder how I got my own job. But he didn’t.
Holly, I was a 14 and 15 year old girl who was constantly being propositioned by men in their mid to late twenties and thirties. And I also thought it would be cool to hang out with someone who had their own car, and a real job, their own apartment. Because I was a friggin’ teenager and an idiot.
Strangely enough, not one of those guys had the courage to pick me up at my house and stand, flat-footed in front of my father. Nearly every single one of them was only interested in having sex with me. We didn’t really have anything in common and, despite the perception of freedom, even as an idiot teenager I recognized that they were kind of losers. In fact it was at 16 that I realized just how dangerous it could be to be alone in a man’s house if he’d driven you there, and you decided that you wanted to leave, and he decided that he didn’t want you to leave. I was never so appreciative to have grown up in a city with good mass transit.
That was an important lesson. I went back to boys my own age for a long time.
Pure love, indeed.
Ozy’s comment has captured my imagination:
“David: I have had sex with six men. About six hundred people have seen me naked (two hundred of them in person).”
All at once? I feel like you must have had sex in a stadium. JUMBOTRON! :D
I feel like I understand Kirby better now that I’ve read that the idea of arguing with a creationist makes him *gleeful*. I’d start pulling out my hair.
@Molly Ren:
Its more of a selfish thing than anything else. I know that there’s a very high chance that NWO wouldn’t learn a damn thing no matter how much evidence I provide for my case, and how little evidence or how much bad evidence he provides. But me being able to provide that evidence, and practicing in finding bad arguments or bad data, is something I would enjoy. As soon as it turns into me trying to convince NWO of anything, I would start to have much less fun. :P
Kirbywarp – This page is more or less the Ultimate Smackdown of all creationist arguments:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html
@Holly:
Heh, yeah, I’ve seen that before. Another part of it is that I’m actually interested in these sorts of things, including interest in the debate itself. *shrug* Well, it looks like NWO’s flounced away anyway, looks like I’ll have to find some other way to occupy my time.
True story: I was interviewing for a job as a QA tester, something I had done for a couple of years before moving 3000 miles. My former boss pretty much sputtered at me: “But you have EXPERIENCE!” And then while trying to compose himself added: “And you’re a girl!” And then went back to “And you have EXPERIENCE!” Most of my co-workers were male, down in the QA den there were about 20 of us, two female, most of my male co-workers had had no experience when they were hired. So there’s my affirmative action – having the boss be extra happy that he could hire someone with experience who also made it vaguely look like it wasn’t a sexist organization.
I’ve been on hiring committees also, as the token female, because when we needed a new GIS person, and our white male dudes who did the IT/GIS stuff realized they needed to diversify at least a little bit, they asked me to do it. And you know what? We all agreed to hire the white dude who seemed best qualified. There was a woman who came in and had a decently similar looking resume, but she was crap on the written test, plus gave us all a bad vibe.
Mr. Slave, maybe you should just watch Fast Times at Ridgemont High. Pure love indeed, I believe the ultra-Christian saying is “True Love Waits.”
No, Xtra, MRA’s hate feminISM….huge difference
I am so amused at this NWO creature
seriously have to keep coming back to the site to check on him
its like a daily game of numpty bingo!
There is an openly gay man running for president in Ireland and some of his views on classical pederasty have been brought up – he once said that he felt that the Greek situation had merit, and it was used against him recently, which I thought was a low blow.
I fully support using Germain Greer’s and Eva Ensler’s pro-statuary rape positions against them and feminism in general, but only to demonstrate the sexual hypocrisy.
I wager that the politically correct peanut gallery here hold people to different standards depending on their genetic code, sexuality and political affiliations. The correctness of an action depending on the gender and sexuality of the actor and the one supposedly acted upon.
Women it seems are threatened by younger women, often a man who is noticeably older than his adult female partner is labelled “pathetic” and a “pervert” and the younger woman will also be sexually shamed and given various labels… I think that there is merit in the mens movement theory that aspects of feminism are about older women looking after their own reproductive interests.
Bit rambely, but long story short – feminists and the PC are largely assholes that can’t see that they are, because of their programming. It doesn’t necessarily mean that they are bad people, they often don’t know any better, they have been told that their bigotry is good bigotry and they just go with that, free pass to be an asshole.
NWO – you aren’t really doing your cause any favours mixing popular conspiracy theories with your anti feminism or men’s rights or whatever you identify as.
NWO probably had to go work at his 28-hour-a-day job that nonetheless leaves him copious free time for leaving hundreds of Internet comments during all evenings and weekends in the Central time zone.
ngz – As I am, in fact, Eve Ensler, your pointing out my hypocrisy has SLAIN me.
However, I do have to point out that no one here is shaming young women who date older men. We’re shaming the older men–the ones in control of the situation–for reasons we’ve explained in detail.
Also, I am really, really not jealous of 16-year-olds’ abilities to draw the most immature, sexually exploitative, and unable-to-deal-with-people-their-own-age members of my age cohort. I can quite honestly do without those dudes; I just hate that they’re inflicting it on people too young to know better, as I once was myself.
-Eve Ensler
ngz3120:
“I wager that the politically correct peanut gallery here hold people to different standards depending on their genetic code, sexuality and political affiliations. The correctness of an action depending on the gender and sexuality of the actor and the one supposedly acted upon.
Women it seems are threatened by younger women, often a man who is noticeably older than his adult female partner is labelled “pathetic” and a “pervert” and the younger woman will also be sexually shamed and given various labels… I think that there is merit in the mens movement theory that aspects of feminism are about older women looking after their own reproductive interests.”
All this is wrong. But hey, don’t take my word for it. Why don’t you actually ask what our positions are on the matter rather than simply declaring them? That way we won’t have to deal with defending possible strawmen. Seriously; ask and you will receive. Answers. Or scorn. Depending on your attitude.
@Holly who said —
“I hate people who are in favor of men’s rights to fuck high-schoolers.”
But there’s a whole subculture that romanticizes the older woman/teenage boy combination (books, music, movies, television shows etc). And society didnt really have much to say about it until Mary Kay LeTourneau…and even know people are no longer outraged by that because they happened to get married.
When a woman does the same to a boy, one of two things happen…either he is shamed into shutting up and taking it, developing huge inner conflict if he is so ungrateful as to not LIKE it or, we explain her behavior away saying she has a mental illness and needs therapy and medication.
When the roles are reversed, the older man is cast as a dirty old man who should be murdered in the street and the girl is told she has no capacity for consent because she’s a child.
and NO ONE sees a double standard here?
Im not advocating for one or the other here, at all. Like most everyone else posting on this thread, I had a relationship with much a older guy…. when I was 15 I was sleeping with a 20 year old. It didnt fuck me up mentally or sexually, and it went on for 2 years.
“No, Xtra, MRA’s hate feminISM….huge difference”
Well, Natasha (long time, no see!), depending on the MRA (they are not a monolithic block, you know), they appear to hate feminism, feminists, women in general, western women, older women, fat women, people of color, “alpha” men, nonvirgins, sluts, women who won’t put out, manginas, modernity, and a host of other people and concepts. It would actually be easier for me to come up with a list of things I haven’t seen an MRA say xie hated.
I’m with Holly about the impossibility of “true love” between adults and teenagers. The power dynamic is impassible. It is going to be an ever present reality throughout that relationship, regardless of how independent and mature this hypothetical teenager may be. I don’t think love is really possible in such an imbalanced relationship. Affection, lust, infatuation–yes. But not love. A partnership can’t exist in that dynamic.
Natasha – I think it’s quite sick when older women sleep with teenage boys, actually.
That wasn’t the discussion at hand with NWO, but no, I absolutely do not think it’s okay or excusable for any older adult to have sex with any teenager.
Oh Bee, lol
Its funny how you just told me all the things Im supposed to hate…when in fact I hate none of them. You open with saying how the MRM is not a monolithic block, but then make a post that outlines all the things you think we appear to hate as if its fact…
Kind of like me saying that I know all feminists arent like this, but feminism represents a hatred for men and boys, bald men, fat men, tall men, short men, men who work, men who do not work, men who are fathers, men who are not fathers, men who ARE their fathers and any woman who does not wear flannel.
See how its all kind of just semantics at this point?
Natasha – Well, you have to hate some feminists if you hate feminism, unless you think the beliefs just came out of the aether or something.
“…and any woman who does not wear flannel.”
I guess this means I hate myself. And my boyfriend. And my dad, and my brother. I’ll be sure to let them know when I call dad for Father’s Day tomorrow.
I’d agree that older women fucking teenagers is fucked up.
As for the whole do-MRAs-hate-feminists-or-feminism issue, this is a distinction I almost never see made on MRA sites, where many people quite openly say that they hate feminISTS. Like this MRA:
http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/whats-up-with-this-mens-movement/2/
Actually, a lot of MRAs seem to have trouble telling the difference between feminists and women in general. And plenty, even if they can tell the difference, who simply hate all women. As for proof, see virtually any post on this site.
I’m a feminist and I like men, boys, bald men, fat men, tall men, short men, etc. and I also do not wear flannel.
So am I not really a feminist, or am I lying and I secretly hate non-flannel-wearers?
To answer the first suggests that feminism is defined by anti-feminists and not by the people actually practicing feminism; to answer the second suggests psychic ability.
Holly, how can you say you arent against people who are for mens rights, then say you hate mra’s? what am I missing there?
“To be specific, I don’t even necessarily hate people who are in favor of men’s rights.” ~Holly
“I don’t hate men, NWO. I hate MRAs.” ~Holly
But you (individually, and et al) claim the same ‘psychic ability’ when describing mra’s…or does that one way mirror only work for you?
Eve
I was talking about women in general that have concocted the sexual shaming of both the older man and the younger woman with him. Feminists don’t hold women accountable for much and are conditioned to view her in the victim role so of course they will only shame the male, out in public like this anyway.
Holly, age doesn’t equal control and control isn’t always bad. Lolita for example, and I was posting with a man who dated a much younger woman recently and he said that she, if anyone was in control. Myself at 15, for some reason was attractive to women in their mid twenties, one in particular was very generous and introduced me to various adult things, including taking control of a woman sexually. My current same age partner, likes to role play a 15 year old girl being taught by me, a man more than twice her age. It is a fantasy that she had that went unfulfilled you see.
Age differentials when the male is the older component as inherently or almost always bad and exploitative, is a female construct that’s present in feminism. The same bigotry isn’t applied when the genders are reversed or other sexualities are involved (homophobic religious nutcases excluded), there is a political dimension too, as is the case here in the OP.
@Natasha, nice try but as I recall, the first quote you attribute to Holly was actually a follow up to the second quote, and clarified her position. If you can’t defend your position without twisting facts, fuck off.