Blogger: SlutWalkers deserve to be raped
From the website of the Edmonton SlutWalk 2011
Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you the most odious misogynist bullshit I have seen thus far on the topic of the Slutwalks: a post on The Third Edge of the Sword, a blog that seems to go out of its way to be offensive and “edgy,” that takes victim blaming to a whole new level. Here’s the basic, er, argument of the post, which the author has put in giant pink letters so we won’t miss it:
Every woman marching in the Edmonton Slut Walk is publicly declaring herself a slut. This means every woman there desires sex with any and all partners. Any sexual activity you initiate with them comes with implied consent. They cannot say no, and if they do understand all their ‘no’s mean yes. They are all asking for it. They want it bad. Now. From you. Go get ‘em!
Some other highlights:
[I]f you … dress slutty, men are going to stare at you. We’re going to catcall. We are going to tell you all sorts of sexual things we want to do to your body. And if you dress slutty and wave your ass in our face, we will do them. The organizers of this event are not oblivious to this point: what they want is a fake sexual revolution. They want to be able to impersonate sluts without actually being sluts, and that’s unacceptable. If you don’t want to be treated as a piece of meat, don’t marinate and grill yourself and sit perched on a piece of garlic toast. You dress slutty, you show off the goods, you try to get a reaction, you will get one. Hint: it’s not always going to be the one you want. …
The “reaction” he has in mind is rape. By calling rape a “reaction” instead of what it is — a criminal assault on someone, an act of sexual violence, a violation — he of course is attempting to switch the blame to the victim. He spells out his “logic” in more detail:
[W]hen you impersonate a slut we don’t fine you, and we don’t throw you in jail. There’s really only one punishment for dressing like a streetwalker when you aren’t one: you do have to endure the occasional rape. You should really suffer it in silence. Accept the character flaw within you that caused this, and move on. Police and court resources are already busy enough with real criminals: like actual rapists who do nasty things to their niece or the homeless native chick passed out under the bridge, or a conservatively dressed urban professional walking to her car, or a girl out jogging in a track suit. To equate the act of actually violating and raping one of these people with having sex with a girl who’s every square millimetre of public persona screams anybody who wants to can screw me right now is ridiculous.
Once again, this brand of misogyny leads to some conclusions that are pretty misandrist – namely, the notion that men are at heart rapists who can’t control their violent urges:
If you go out on the street in an outfit that would make Britney Spears feel uncomfortable, you do so knowing that your ultimate aim is to make men want you. Well, they want you now. Congrats. Oh, wait, you mean you didn’t understand what that implied? That in the great Bell curve of sexual congress you’ve just pushed everybody on the right-hand side of the -2 std devs line past that imaginary barrier that says “there is no power in the universe powerful enough to stop me from sliding my finger inside your panties”? I call bullshit. You do know. But you want to be a virginal slut, to dress in ways that makes men helpless to their urges but still leaves you fully in restrictive control.
The blogger concludes by arguing that the Slutwalkers are all “lying bitches” because they dress like they wasn’t to be raped, but do not actually want to be raped. Then he makes this lovely suggestion:
If your wife is one of them, I’m very very sorry. Maybe a good rape might make her a little more manageable around the house.
Now this post is an atmittedly extreme example of a misogynistic response to the Slutwalks. But the basic “logic” of this blogger’s would-be argument is essentially identical to that of many MRA and other “manosphere” pieces I’ve seen on the subject, the main difference between them being that this guy embraces the logical conclusion of his argument — that Slutwalkers deserve to be raped — while the MRAs who make essentially the same argument (and fling the same sorts of insults at the Slutwalkers) make a show of saying that they don’t really think the Slutwalkers “deserve” it. And maybe they’ve convinced themselves that this caveat means something . But in that case the extreme reaction that manosphere misogynists have had to the Slutwalks – the insults thrown at the Slutwalkers, the “jokey” references to rape, the prurient sneering – makes little sense. If you argue that women are “asking for it” when they dress like “sluts,” you’re essentially saying they deserve it. You’re making the same argument this guy is making, but pretending you aren’t.
NOTE: The graphic above is taken from the official web site for the Edmonton SlutWalk 2011, which took place a week ago. Here are some pictures of the march.
Posted on June 11, 2011, in antifeminism, evil women, misandry, misogyny, MRA, rape, rapey, reactionary bullshit, sluts, threats, violence against men/women. Bookmark the permalink. 612 Comments.
I think someone has set NWO to self-destruct mode. Keep it up, folks; it shouldn’t be long now.
Consider this the envelope (e-nvelope? xD) proof that Kirby is the next Carnac xD (or Karnac):
[01:36] Kirby: he’s probably just gonna repeat “No, they aren’t.”
[01:36] Ami: he doesn’t read studies
[01:36] Ami: or what other ppl say
[01:36] Kirby: nope
[01:37] Kirby: …
[01:37] Kirby: dammit, I hate being right…
XXDDDDDDDD
@NWO
Actually Ami reminded me of something off thread, and I just had to point this out. You say that boy/boy or girl/girl = gay. Alright. So anybody who has sex with the opposite gender is straight, no matter what they think of the matter? Have you heard of gay men marrying straight women in an attempt to hide the fact that they are gay? Some of them actually had families. So apparently, they are 100% straight, no matter what they think they are.
NWO – I treat them like the sluts they are Plymouth. They get all insulted. Too funny.
Oh, so sluts actually AREN’T asking to be raped – they’re just asking to be insulted. Got it. So “treating them like sluts” DOES NOT IN FACT include raping them. So why exactly do you think they’re being raped then?
Say Plymouth do you walk around near naked in front of boys entering puberty. Maybe get them all horny and then smack them down and call them pervert’s? Just wondering? Meh, I guess they were asking for it.
I don’t actually know any boys entering puberty, and even if I did I would want nothing to do with seeing them horny because I am in fact not a pedophile. And if for whatever reason horny pubescent boys ended up in my presence I would not call them perverts because simply BEING HORNY does not make one a pervert – I would just LEAVE. So, no. What the fuck is your goddamned problem?
Naughty, naughty NWO. I see your opinion on abortion changes when it’s someone who disagrees with you. And I find it interesting that this is the first time I’ve said anything to you and you pull that bs.
As for worthless…I know what I’ve done for society and none of it is worthless. As for you, it appears all you’ve done is spew hatred, misogyny & idiocy so really, all I can do is laugh at your pathetic behaviour and attempts to deal with your inferiority complex by being nasty to other people.
NWO, what a wretched piece of trash you must be, since you only seem able to define yourself by the damage you can do to others and you expect other men to do the same. Sorry, the rest of us aren’t as weak and lacking in self-control and self-discipline as you. We’re capable of looking at provocatively-dressed women without feeling the irresistible compulsion to engage in public displays of attempted (and ultimately, failed) dominance. We don’t want to take what isn’t freely and gladly offered and we derive no pleasure from the idea of actually breaking someone against their will.
What gives me comfort about you, what makes me smile, is the knowledge that what you want most in life will never be yours and you’ll spend the rest of your life bitterly watching others enjoy it. You are insufficient to command anything from women but fear and disgust.
If you think a woman’s clothes are saying “FUCK ME HARD!” maybe you should get your ears examined. …. Or start a fetish support group for men like you who went and got their hearts broken by the world’s most self-centered sport bra.
Well, NWO, you never answered my last set of questions, but I might as well give you another try.
Imagine you’ve got a dinner date with a lady you like. (I know, I know, but make an effort here.) You put on your best, most flattering clothes and head out. But on your way to the restaurant, a guy grabs you, yanks your pants down, and fucks you up the ass. What is your reaction?
a) I’m delighted! After all, I dressed up with the expectation of possibly having sex, and sex is what I got. This is my idea of a perfect evening.
b) I’m none too happy about being raped, but I understand that it’s the proper punishment for looking attractive. If I’d been allowed to continue down the street unmolested, think of all the pain I could have caused for straight women and gay men who saw me but didn’t get to have sex with me! Imagine their horrible agony!
c) I accept the rape as my just punishment, but I think it might be a little extreme. It would have been more appropriate for the guy to follow me down the street insulting me.
d) It doesn’t matter what I want. Once I go out in public, I forfeit the right to personal autonomy, and it’s up to any random person who sees me to decide how my body should be used.
Your choice?
@Plymouth
What the fuck is your goddamned problem?
I think everyone who has interacted with NWO has asked that very question at one point or another. I have my theories, but I’d have to break out my copy of the DSM-IV to explain them in any detail. It will suffice to quote the inimitable Buzz Lightyear:
“You are a sad, strange little man, and you have my pity. Farewell.”
Good god, that was disturbing to read. Incredibly unsettling.
I don’t see why it’s so hard to make the connection that clothing =/= consent. Even if someone is dancing around in the sexiest possible outfit I have ever seen, there is no reason for me to assume that that means they want to have sex with me. Or anyone else. Maybe they really are just teases, enjoying the attention they get. So what? It really doesn’t hurt me, does it? It doesn’t reduce their humanity. I might find it annoying, but I find lots of things annoying. All I have to do is just kinda… direct my attention elsewhere. Sluts in the street! Oh no! My world is over, and clearly I shall go on a raping spree! Wait, that doesn’t happen with every man, so… why should these women (and men) have to plan for anyone else’s interpretation of their clothing? What’s the standard for “slutty”? Some conservative Christians argue that pants and purse straps across the chest are immodest (http://www.gerald285.com/index.php?p=1_40_Modesty). Are you going by their standard? Some conservative Muslims may argue that every part of a woman is immodest, and showing the eyes or face is too suggestive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_clothing). Do you plan for these people? What if you tempt them? How do you know who they are, so you can protect yourself? The goalposts are constantly moving, and how can a woman (or man) possibly know to what standard he or she will be held?
This ad about sums up the ridiculousness of the idea:
The majority of the people that I counseled on the crisis line were not people who had gone out, had “consensual” sex and then retracted it. One woman had been pulled into a car while walking home from a child’s birthday party. Another woman was visiting a “friend” in his apartment and he beat the living shit out of her. Another was escaping her husband, who had crushed her hands with a hammer (among other horrible things). One was held down by her fellow soldiers and assaulted. Were they dressed “sexy”? Not really. Most of them were dressed like a very average person – t-shirts, blouses, sweatshirts, jeans (and a soldier’s uniform). One of them was wearing high heels, but that’s not exactly uncommon. These were the people that were terrified to tell the police, because, “what if they think I’m just a slut?!” or “I was probably asking for it, because I [was drinking coffee in his apartment, was walking alone, they might have thought I was flirting, I married him]“. Of course, these are extreme examples that had a lot of violence in them – all of these clients were in the emergency room, and I was there to advocate for them. Clearly, not all sexual assaults are so violent.
But that’s why these SlutWalks kinda matter. They show that it’s not a woman’s (or man’s) clothing or sexual history that makes rape happen. If it were, all of these women and men would be raped on the spot. But they aren’t. That shows that there’s something else at work. It’s not about what someone wears or how someone behaves. It’s about one person taking advantage of another.
“All of you women claim to dress up sexy (with as little as possible) cause it makes you “feel” good. That’d be your base animal instinct to attract men which fulfills that part of your sexuality. So what you want is to be praised for being unable/unwilling to control your sexuality while wanting men to be in complete control of their sexuality. ”
I and many people have said this before, but this is a stupid analogy. No one is complaining about ‘slutty’ scantily-clad men, which would be the equivalent. That you equate rape with clothing choice only says anything about you.
I control my sexuality. When I see a hot guy with his shirt off, I don’t rape him or insult him. My reaction would probably be to be a bit flustered, point him out to a friend, be overly nice to him maybe…? Shallow, yes, but rape?
Love how NWO just pulls numbers out of his ass (over 80% of child abuse cases are man on female child, so even if his utterly bullshit notion that all man on male child abuse was by gay or bi men were true, it would not be anywhere near his cited numbers).
I’m adding this to the list of Classic NWO Statistics, which also include:
— 90% of feminist marriages end in divorce
— 90% of children in “the ghetto” are born out of wedlock
— 90% of women claim to have been raped in college (they’re lying, of course)
I wouldn’t hold it against him, though. As you’d know if you weren’t stupid brainwashed cattle, Congress just added a new section to Title IX forcing men to make up nonsense statistics about things they know nothing about, or else gay Jewish U.N. soldiers with women’s studies degrees will break into their homes and shoot them down like dogs. IT’S ALL THERE, SHEEPLE! OPEN YOUR EYES! WE ARE THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS!
Shaenon, I tried that one. It must have upset him, because he not only insulted me, he also insulted my iconic basenji. He also failed to answer the question.
90% of feminist marriages end in divorce??
LOL
According to this article, relationship where both partners are feminist seem to be happier: http://www.livescience.com/1964-feminists-fun.html
an excerpt from the article:
~College-age women who reported having feminist male partners also reported higher quality relationships that were more stable than couples involving non-feminist male partners.
~College guys who were themselves feminists and had feminist partners reported more equality in their relationships.
~Older women who perceived their male partners as feminists reported greater relationship health and sexual satisfaction.
~Older men with feminist partners said they had more stable relationships and greater sexual satisfaction.
Overall, feminism and romance do go hand in hand, the scientists say.
While they aren’t sure how feminism works to enhance relationship health, the researchers have some ideas. Feminist men might be more supportive of their female partner’s ambitions than are traditionalists. Men with feminist partners may enjoy the extra breadwinner to share the economic burden of maintaining a household.
and hey, it’s from LiveScience, not one of those dang lying feminazi propaganda sites!
@klopbop exactly! also the original slutwalk was in response to a police officer who believed these rape myths… so it’s also a protest to educate the police and others in authority, b/c alrdy survivors worry about how they will be treated or if they’ll be believed or be victim-blamed/shamed, etc… and this just exacerbates the fears and lack of trust :\ (even if it’s not ALL police, you worry you might get the bad egg, esp after you’ve just been traumatized) which all ties into what you said and what also my exps have been w/ rape survivors :\
I’m still trying to wrap my head around the concept of “slut” in the first place.
Apparently if I have had sex with more than 9 men* I am a slut.
Apparently if I am a slut I will have sex with ANY MAN – it means I have no standards I am just desperate for all the cock I can get.
Because, ya know, out of the roughly 18 million men who live in my state I found a whole NINE I was willing to have sex with and there’s no way I would have found that many if I had any standards at all about attractiveness or personality!!
I mean we all know that “having standards” means “only being willing to sleep with Brad Pitt” and since there’s only one of him, well, you do the math…
*which I have
Though the first 9 were all from Connecticut and Massachusetts – between those two states there’s only about 4 million men. MUCH harder to find 9 good ones there. Also, Brat Pitt doesn’t even live there! Yup, definitely no standards.
Think of it this way, Plymouth, most of these MRAs can’t even get ONE girl “under their belt.” Just imagine how desperate you’d have to be to get nine?
Yeah, its a stretch in logic, but what are you gonna do?
kirbywarp – whoa. I think you just blew my mind. That explains so much.
Damn it. He has to be from Edmonton. I would have to live in the same friggin’ city as that misogynistic, homophobic, racist piece of crap (yeah, I saw “Edmonton” and had to look at more of his blog).
On the other hand, I would so watch a reality show that brings his impotent rage together with NWOslave’s where we could watch them on a couch together watching the news over which they’d bond while angrily screaming at the television.
Back when I was in my mid-20s and kinda rebounding from my ex-fiance I slept with quite a few people in a short period of time. Including my only true one-night-stand (everyone else I was either friends with for quite a while first or slept with more than once) and the one time I slept with a guy the very same night I met him (he was totally smokin’ hot and no regrets there!). So based on someone’s idea of what the appropriate way for a girl to behave I seem to have gotten labeled a slut.
So one night I got contacted on IM by a horny high-school kid looking to get laid. I think he said he was 17. I have no idea how he found me or who in my extended social circle may have referred him to me, but he was clearly under the impression that: 1) I was a slut and 2) because I was a slut I would agree to sleep with him, no questions asked, before having even met him.
He seemed really upset when I told him I wouldn’t sleep with him unless I found him attractive. I asked him to send me a picture. He sent me a grainy class pic in which I could barely make out his face but it wasn’t promising. I told him we could meet for coffee and if I decided he was attractive we could have sex. That wasn’t good enough for him – unless I agreed in advance that we would have sex he wasn’t even willing to make the time to meet me. I declined. I almost felt bad for the kid. Clearly someone had given him a really warped impression about how sex actually works in the real world.
Why wait, abort them and start sexing them now. Oh yes aborty sexy times. They are just asking for it, coming out of the fallopian tube wearing nothing but those zygote cells. Dirty zygote sluts, mmmmmmmmmmmm, yeah.
Did I win evil feminazi of the year?
Well, I wouldn’t go so far as to say that anyone ‘deserves’ rape or to defend those who do it. Rape is a crime, and should be punished accordingly (I’m talking about actual rape cases here – not “she got drunk off her ass one night, enthusiastically hooked up with a random guy, then later sobered up and ashamed of her boyfriend/family/whatever decided to call it rape” – that’s a separate issue). So again, rape is a crime and the responsibility is certainly the perpetrator’s, not the victim’s. But is there really no merit to the idea that certain behaviours cause people to form certain ideas about you, and even encourage unwanted advances? Is it complete balderdash to claim that essentially flaunting one’s sexual assets may encourage sexual behaviour from others? I’m getting the impression that police officer is being vilified for essentially trying to help. Nobody except hardcore MRA nutjobs ever said women ‘deserve’ rape. But it is possible certain things (dressing provocatively for one) put them at higher risk.
Now if the response had simply been “state of the victim’s dress doesn’t seem to be a large factor in how rapists choose their victims” that would’ve been fine, that’s an argument you can make and it addresses the original issue. But it was more like “women should be able to dress/act however they want and never suffer any consequences!” It’s almost as if a policeman had said people should wear helmets when riding motorcycles, and a bunch of angry protesters organized a “bare-headed walk” in response, shouting that nobody should dictate to them what to wear!
Finally, I’m not sure what protests like this actually accomplish – besides getting to dress up in your Halloween outfit (I especially liked the assassin and the slutty Pope). It’s not like men think rape is okay, and those who do, well, they probably won’t change their minds after this.
I actually found this post triggering as fuck, especially since when I was raped I was dressed up nice (not ‘slutty’, but in a dress and high heels) because it was my birthday party. Just woke up from the worst nightmare I have in awhile.
Ion-
Posters on here have mentioned being victims of rape while wearing jeans and a t-shirt, baggy clothes, etc. There are also no studies, no evidence that says revealing clothing is a cause of rape. Clothing never has and never will be the issue. I dont understand why people cant get this through their heads.
Children get raped. Elderly people get raped. Men get raped. None of these groups of people are known to wear mini skirts or crop tops.
On top of that, rape is also used as a tool of war in other parts of the world, in order to instill fear and ensure submission. Many women who live in such countries do not dress in revealing clothing. Many cover up in their traditional clothing. Thus, further proof clothing has nothing to do with it. Most rapes are also perpetrated by people the victims already know, not some creep hiding in the alleyway of a nightclub or bar waiting to pounce on some unsuspecting drunk girl.
It’s also problematic to tell women to cover up because it puts the onus on them to not get raped, when instead the focus should be on keeping rapists from raping.
Women have the right to wear whatever they choose. Rapists can learn to control themselves. I see men walk around shirtless all the time during the summer, but heaven forbid a woman wear daisy dukes and a tank top to keep cool, she must be asking for it!
Finally, the slut walk accomplishes plenty. It puts forth the message of everything I typed above. It’s women asserting their right to body autonomy and the right to wear what they want in public and not be harnessed. Its women and men speaking out against rape culture and letting the police officer, and other like minded people know that the myth of not dressing slutty to prevent rape is complete crap.
I dont think men think rape is okay either (except for rapists themselves and the asshole this post is originally about) but even so, there are lots of men and women who still think its ok to blame the victim, even just a bit, for not covering up and keeping safe.
We never question or blame the person who gets mugged or violently assaulted, why do we question and blame rape victims?
“Face it, guys, you blew it. You took a perfectly legitimate set of issues, then let your movement get infested with misogynists, racists, anti-semites, PUA’s, rape and abuse apologists, and the ever-popular conspiracy nuts. You dug your own grave, so lie in it.”
Translation – I have no actual argument against the MRM bar making the false allegations about the entire movement.
Its hilarious when the self important posters of Manboobz, artificially high on delusions of superiority having spent so much time mocking the most damaged and simple minded members of the mens movement then make authoritative sounding statements, as if they are not willfully participating at the same level of debate, as those that they mock.
Sitting in Plato’s cave wearing the Emperors new clothes beating a strawman.
Ion
With all due respect, I think you miss the point. Firstly, I’ve yet to see a single shred of evidence that how a woman dresses makes them more likely to be raped.
Secondly, the point of slutwalks is to protest a culture that tells men they have an excuse. They don’t and we need to stop perpetuating that thinking with all this “Well, what was she wearing?” crap.
Also, (and this isn’t directed at Ion), can’t believe how many men still equate a mugging with an assault on someone’s genitalia. My money = not the same as my vagina.
NWO, you ignored my question (actually, you ignored my entire post, but I want an answer for this one):
When you go to an art museum, do you think it’s okay to steal the art because it’s on display?
Jules, well said. Especially: “Secondly, the point of slutwalks is to protest a culture that tells men they have an excuse. They don’t and we need to stop perpetuating that thinking with all this “Well, what was she wearing?” crap.”
Doogz, Ozy acquired her view of the MRM by reading what its members wrote on their own blogs and forums. If you don’t like what their words reveal about them, I suggest you take it up with them.
No Johnny Pez
Ozy acquired her view the same way you did, from this site only, its clearly evidenced by her piece and her view and the requests to be shown information that doesn’t correspond with the limited number of quotes that manboobz mines from a very limited number sites.
Manboobz is basically about feminist bigots calling out men rights bigots while pretending that all mens rights people are defined by a minority.
Most of you appear to be as heavily invested in your one bigotry and willful ignorance as the people that you gather here to mock.
Also, being heavily invested in mocking others that you believe are lesser than you, says quite a bit about a person. I think the buzz gives the users here temporary relief from their own problems and issues.
Dgz, I came to Manboobz originally thinking it was a misogynist site like Spearhead and A Voice for Men. I stayed for two reasons: (1) because everyone here had the same reaction to the up-voting at the Spearhead that I did: how can a group of people be so entrenched in a mutual admiration society that they actually vote, as a matter of course, on ignoring dissenting voices–not trolls, actual people who are trying to engage them? and (2) because Paul Elam is a narcissistic bully and I was disgusted at how he and his cronies manipulated the domestic violence debate. None of my male friends or family members consider themselves feminists–I actually grew up thinking of feminism as a dirty word–but none of these men would accept the level of sexism (to put it very mildly) that is rampant on both of these sites. I wanted to support men’s rights because bad things *are* happening to men, but I can’t find any sites that aren’t dominated by men who think women are evil unless they dedicate their lives to being cheerleaders for men. So, yeah, I’m done being a cheerleader for men who look down on me. That’s why I’m now a feminist. I like men; I don’t like sexists. Everyone on this site would tell you the same thing.
Here is a challenge for manboobzers.
If the intellectual superiority you clearly feel isn’t an illusion created by picking on the weaker members and then mobbing , mocking and intellectually bullying any that arrive here from outside your bubble.
W. Price of The Spearhead has responded to Ozy.
My bet is that none of you can step outside your intellectual training bra/comfort zone here where you know the game is rigged and debate as an individual with some of the more intellectually robust members of the men’s rights movement.
That reminds me. David as you can see – even the lame stream media is now acknowledging the men’s rights position on domestic violence to be correct and the feminist one to be a collection of falsehoods and myths.
ht tp://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jun/07/feminism-domestic-violence-men
Tick tock feminism.
Ami and spear, I’ve got plans tonight but I’m around next weekend. Where/when is the Toronto meetup going to be? I’m an eastender myself.
@klopbop,
And isn’t it interesting how feminism takes the blame for the viewpoint that all men are potential rapists, and yet it’s mainly conservatives (esp. ultra-conservatives), who tend to be anti-feminist, who want to dictate what is and is not proper, modest attire for women, lest a man’s inner rapist be tempted?
Having checked out that link you posted to the conservative Christian’s article on immodest clothing, I think I’d better start getting dressed for tomorrow’s workday right now so that I’ll have time to ensure that every article of clothing I wear is properly buttoned and pinned from every possible angle that might be viewed as I move around.
Oh, and the Biblical quote provided at the end of that particular article clearly shows how the concern surrounding women’s attire is focused on the immodest display of riches and wealth, not flesh and bodily outlines. I wonder how many of these conservative Christians lecture each other on the immodesty of their outward displays of classism…
“My bet is that none of you can step outside your intellectual training bra/comfort zone here where you know the game is rigged and debate as an individual with some of the more intellectually robust members of the men’s rights movement.”
Is that a joke?
Never one to back down from a challenge, I dutifully went over to see Price’s post. I also read through the comments and got down to round about the bit where they devolved into a discussion of the merits or otherwise of Ozymandias’ arse*. After several comments that consisted mainly of sentences like “Now THIS is a nice arse” together with accompanying links, I gave up in disgust,.
As for your assertion that “Ozy acquired her view the same way you did, from this site only”, what an arrogant and trollish assumption. Of course, I can only speak for myself but I ended up here because I stumbled upon http://grerp.blogspot.com/ and from there onto ALL the MRA sites in her sidebar and- because I was so disgusted and morbidly fascinated- started reading them regularly. I have to say, they shook my faith in men for a while but, thankfully, they eventually led me here to Manboobz and I remembered that they are lots of great men- in fact, more good men than bad men.
And I get kind of a kick out of the fact that it was reading sites like Spearhead that drove me here and to places like Feministe.
*By the way, from the pictures, it looked like a great arse to me.
Funny how the vast majority of comments come from the weaker, “fringe” members of the MRM, who are few and far between (thus David’s need to “cherry-pick”, as opposed to shooting fish in a barrel).
@Pam: Don’t you be tempting your workmates with pants, young lady. I know you’re out to ensnare them in your horrible plans for divorce and sperm-stealing with your heels that make your dress appear shorter! You sly woman, you.
Honestly, I don’t know why there’s so much emphasis in conservative Christianity on making women look and act a certain way, lest they tempt men, but not so much an emphasis on seeing all God’s sons and daughters in a respectful and loving manner, no matter what their appearance is.
I would say the majority of feminists I’ve spoken to feel that people are responsible for their own actions regardless of what genitalia they have – I don’t remember anyone saying that all men are rapists, or that men cannot help their animal instincts or whathaveyou. I wish there were a little more equal blame for spreading that particular lie on conservative folk who insist that women’s attire controls men’s minds.
@Ami Angelwings: Absolutely. Most of my clients were terrified to speak to officers, lest they be ridiculed or rejected. A few of them expressed concerns about racism and being seen as a more-deserving target. “Slut” or no “slut”, no one deserves to be assaulted (no matter what sex they are), and should be treated with respect.
And I am sorry all my comments are total tl;drs! D:
Already there, Dgz.
Watched “The Accused” yesterday for the first time in some years.
Again I was reminded that the weakest part of the movie is the fact that the men who cheer on the rape are convicted of a crime. Cheering on and encouraging rape (of a woman) is not a crime in our society – in fact it’s a very normal and accepted behavior even 2+ decades later.
Pam, dontcha know there’s a sooper-seekrit MRM site out there somewhere that totally isn’t full of misogynists and racists and homophobes, where they do Real Activism and work toward lasting changes in society, but nobody will tell us where it is because we might… help them. Or something.
I’ll start considering the whole “what she was wearing” crap as legitimate once the people who espouse that start asking the same thing of male rape victims. What was John Doe wearing? What were his actions at the time? How was he behaving? How many sexual partners has he had in his lifetime?
Yes, male victims are taken less seriously (I acknowledge my own complicity here and where I once laughed at prison jokes, I now find them disgusting), but once society does take the rape of men as seriously as it does the rape of women, will male victims face the same bullshit female victims do?
And speaking of male victims of rape – I’ll start taking MRA concerns about it more seriously (note: this is not the same as taking the crime itself more seriously) if they make it easier for male victims to come forward. Drop the homophobia (how many male victims don’t come forward because they don’t want to be thought of as gay?) and drop the macho crap (how may don’t come forward because they think it makes them less of a man?). Make it clear it’s not their fault.
Of course, it makes it a lot more difficult to make it clear to a rape victim that it’s not their fault when they see all the slut shaming of female victims. If women are doing something to provoke their rapists, how can men avoid the niggling suspicion that they may have done something too? (I’d like to see a study done on this.)
I will believe that MRAs are seriously concerned about male rape victims when they start getting seriously concerned about all rape victims and rape culture in general. Because at the end of the day, it’s not male vs. female victims, it’s just about victims period.
oh and dgz3120, that was me you were quoting up there, not Ozy. And I didn’t discover the MRM via Manboobz, I discovered it about 2 years ago, and was even a supporter until I got fed up with the misogyny, racism, etc etc etc. Congratulations, you lost an ally.
GASP!! I’ve been BUSTED!!!
Because, fallible humans that we are, we’re loathe to relinquish worldly notions, mores, etc., that allow us to believe that some of us are always and forever inherently better and more worthy than others; so instead, we’ll meld these worldly possessions together with Christianity, lord it over others and call it “Good”.
When I have heard the above, it’s typically been from men, and not usually men who self-identify as feminist, quite the opposite.
I snipped the one portion out because I don’t typically hear that from anyone, except when anti-feminists are stating what they believe it is that women think.
No SHIT!! That’s something that seems to be consistently ignored.
@speedlines,
Yes, so I’ve heard! And kudos to them for successfully keeping that site so sooper-seekrit!!
Oh, and congratulations for extricating yourself from that mire of misogyny and racism, etc., etc.!!
@Tabby Lavalamp,
I don’t think MRAs are as concerned about the actual male victims of rape as they are about feminists (in particular, and women in general) not dropping all issues that they are currently dealing with in order to concern themselves with male victims of rape…and male victims of DV…and male victims of male on male non-sexual violence…and male “victims” of child support payments…and the high suicide rates of males…
Hmmmm, I see a pattern emerging here…
Man. This whole post and thread and everything just makes me so incredibly sad and angry. Sangry? I dunno. People. People. Just be nice? And respectful? Come on. I don’t understand why this is so hard. =[
^ :( Don’t be sad, Sarah! You have a plush Cthulhu avatar and it is Teh Awesome! <3
@Tabby and @Pam I dunno if you saw it since it got buried under the avalanche that ensued when NWO showed up, but on the first page I wrote a big comment (it’s also in my blog so you can just go there :3 ) about how this same sort of victim blaming, “you asked for it by doing XYZ”, rape as punishment etc, intersects with why our society makes light of and accepts prison rape, and also how the typical slut-shaming and victim blaming of female victims actually let an abuser and rapist of boys (and girls) get away (also this has a lot to do w/ screwed up hockey culture and ideas of masculinity in that and homophobia -_-)
@Kristinmh @Spear Hmm… I can get almost newhere (tho I prefer a place where I can park, but there’s lots of those that can be on a subway line) but if it’s easier for ppl we can meet in a more central location like Eaton Centre/Dundas Square or rly wherever :3 I have subway access too :]
*gives Sarah big happy angel hugs* ):
*hug hug hug hug hug hug hug hug hug hug*
*gives everybody hugs!*
Aw, thanks beshemoth! Your Cthulhu avatar is pretty awesome, too!
*hugs for Ami and everyone*
@Apeman, that isn’t actually true. Cheering on a crime, encouraging it, or inciting it can fall under complicity charges. While it is true that complicity charges are rarely pressed for cheering bystanders (cheering accomplices are often charged more harshly under accomplice liability), it is not true that they never could be. They could be charged as “accessories during the fact” or for “aiding and abetting”. Failure to intervene alone, barring a special duty, generally does not expose a bystander to liability, but verbal or other encouragement, or preventing other bystanders from intervening, could in many jurisdictions. Depending on the facts at hand (I have not seen the specific film), it might be an extremely unusual case, and probably a hard one for the prosecution to prove, but it could be done.
I did some quick research on Westlaw and did find precidents to suggest that verbal encouragement can be enough to establish complicity: Kuney v. Dutcher, 1885, 56 Mich. 308, 22 N.W. 866 (telling people they should go kill someone is complicity). U. S. v. Burroughs 12 M.J. 380 CMA,1982 (a military case in which the court determined that telling someone they should sell marijuana from their own stash because you do not have any and being present at the sale could be considered sufficient verbal encouragement for complicity). Williams v. United States, D.C.App.1963, 190 A.2d 269 (intimidating the victim of an assault but not actually doing the act and preventing escape can establish complicity). Smothers v. Com. Ky.App.,2003-unreported but available on Westlaw (appellant’s co-defendent was convicted of complicity to murder for verbally encouraging appellant to shoot).
So, yeah, charging people who did something like cheer “rape her, rape her” with complicity to commit rape is not unthinkable under US law. It is a crime to intentionally verbally encourage someone else to commit a crime, it just isn’t charged proportionately to its occurance.
Damn, law school is making me even nerdier, isn’t it?
Darksidecat – isn’t there also the possibility that the cheering bystander gets told “we could charge you as an accomplice but if you cooperate and testify against the main criminals we’ll cut you a deal”? So, no accomplice charges are filed but the more serious criminal has a better chance of being convicted due to witness testimony that would otherwise be unobtainable.
@Ami,
Oh, there’s no doubt in my mind that the issue of males being raped/sexually assaulted is either made light of or kept stuffed in the closet for a variety of reasons, including the ones that you mentioned. But MRAs don’t tend to bring the topic to light in its own right, separate from their anti-feminist, anti-women screeds, which leads me to believe that they’re not truly as concerned about the plight of current and prospective male victims of rape/sexual assault as they are with hauling out the topic on occasion to complain about women (particularly feminist women) concerning themselves with their own needs rather than focusing on the needs of men. The topic rears its ugly head, then is stuffed back into the closet until the next “special occasion” arises.
DSC, it’s awesome having you as our resident legal eagle. You are a great resource to have around, as you can cut through MRA’s bullshit understanding of the law like no other. Keep up the good work.
I thought the cheering was done by the rapists when it wasn’t their turn to be rapey.
Yesterday, I ran into the man who assaulted me. That assault occurred while I was wearing my fucking pajamas. So tell me, MRAs, are pajamas slutty now? I mean, that’s what the female student body at my undergrad university got told by our student elected chaplain. So was he right? Should I castigate myself for my slutty slutty pajamas?
Because I’ve got news for you: it doesn’t matter what the hell a woman is wearing. If a man wants to rape her, he’s going to rape her. End of fucking story.
I’m a bit late to the party, but wow! This post has left me feeling angry and sad . I came across this link a few weeks ago which I think is relevant to the conversation.
But why shouldn’t she take some responsibility too for the rape?
I hope I’ve done the link correctly!
I used to believe that girls that dressed modestly were safe from rape. That is probably one of the reasons I always dressed that way. I even rarely wore bright colors. I followed all the stupid rules, I dressed conservatively and was not sexually promiscuous. Still I was raped when I was 15. This is what pisses people off about that police officer. I was not safer, can we now talk about other things that could possibly actually make people safer from being raped.
I’m so sorry sarah that’s awful.
Oh no and Xtra I just saw your comment that’s horrible, I’m so sorry that happened to you
“women should be able to dress/act however they want and never suffer any consequences!”
I don’t see the problem with this as a goal, at least within the bounds of legality and physical feasibility. If I imagined a world where somehow rape did not happen — if, say, we all developed Jedi mind powers that ejected people from our personal space the instant that their presence was no longer in accordance with our will, or even more implausibly everyone on the planet made it their personal mission to ensure that any sex partners that they had were 100% on board with and as satisfied as possible by the acts mutually being conducted — I simply can’t imagine myself in that world thinking “Shit, we’ve got to reinvent this ‘rape’ thing because it’s so totally wrong that these people can just willy-nilly go about their ordinary business as if they have a right to do it without being violated!”
That other people seem to have that thought with a great amount of fervor worries me just a lil’ bit.
The word “consequences” tends to make me want to spit over my shoulder anyway. Even applied to children, I seem to always see it used in a way that smells massively of control freak — “Just like touching a hot burner or smoking pot in front of a cop, disagreeing with me has ‘natural’ consequences that probably involve you experiencing physical pain.”
Applied to adults in the manner that it seems to be here — that women should expect rape as the natural consequence of being so brazen as to wear clothing in accordance with various fashion schemes, appear in public, have a sex life, ultimately to exist — it is frankly disgusting.
@dreamhouse That’s a great link, and a great post, thanks for sharing it :3
@Xtra and @sarahejones *big big supportive hugs if it’s okay* :( I’m so sorry that happened to you.
The other fun thing about the notion that women who are rape victims are responsible for the rape because they did or didn’t X, Y, Z is that you see just how fucking fast the shoe gets on the other foot when the problem is reversed.
If a guy, at minimum, has had sex with a drunk girl he didn’t know well under sketchy circumstances and is being accused of rape? It is an injustice of epic proportions that this has happened, oh yes, despite the obvious precautions that he could have taken to reduce his risk of that happening to him. Inclusive of the reasonable precaution of not having sex, which seems to be what is expected of women up until the point that their services are required.
firebee:
If you wanna talk about the guys side of things, putting the responsibility on the woman is about as dehumanizing as possible. Basically, men are wild animals unable to control their intense desires to rape anything that flashes a knee-cap at them. Guys are just gonna do what they do, there’s no helping them, so in the mean time do what you can to protect yourself. =_= Give us guys some credit, and make the guys who don’t think they’ve done anything wrong understand what they did.
Ok, I don’t mean to make light of the situation, but how many commenters here are either a) queer/transsexual/bisexual, b) sexually assaulted in the past, c) with a history of Asperger’s/other mental or emotional issues or d) all of the above? Because it seems like an inordinately high number, and would certainly explain some of the stronger reactions around here…
Thanks Ami, & Snowy. Things like the slutwalks can be a real opportunity to get different stories out there and to drive the point home to people that victim blaming is harmful.
Can you explain further what you mean and what your intention is behind the question before I assume I know what you mean? o_O;;
Exactly, kirbywarp!! Myself and other feminists that I know (including ones I know only from my occasionally hanging out at this blog) believe that men are far better than these rape apologists allow for…. and yet we’re the misandrists??
kirbywarp:
I think we’re talking across each other. I’m contrasting the MRA response to men being accused of rape (at all, it seems, even if justly) to the MRA response to women being actually raped.
Women are expected to follow various precautions in order to avoid being raped, which will expand to encompass any conceivable case (or so it seems). The woman “should not have been at that party, should not have consumed alcohol, should not have been alone with that man, should not have been wearing that, should not be know for having had sex with other people”, et cetera.
A man who is in the position of being accused of rape could usually be accused in much the same manner. The guy equally well could have declined to attend a party of the sort which is known to produce accusations of rape, could have avoided consuming alcohol, could have avoided being alone with a woman, and could have refrained from sticking his dick in one. He thereby would have reduced his risk of being accused of rape substantially.
It’s not as if the MRAs don’t know the dangers of rape accusations, for all they complain about it incessantly. But you sure as hell don’t see them running the dude down for receiving the “known consequences” of his “irresponsible behavior” the way they do for women who wear skirts, or jeans, or gods help me footie pajamas.
@Ion: I’m not sure how to take your comment. While I don’t want to presume as to your motivation, the way you’ve worded things sounds very much like a criticism of the reactions many of have had to the misogyny David posts. I can only speak for myself. I am a survivor, though of assault not rape, and I also have a diagnosis of bipolar II disorder. Historically, women and the mentally ill (and there’s a significant amount of overlap in those categories that I believe is at least partially due to sexism) have been portrayed as irrational and overly emotional. My diagnosis has been used against me to discount my experience of abuse at the hands of my ex. Hence my wariness about your comment–on the surface it seems to delegitimize the reactions I and others present here.
@sarahejones I share your same wariness… which is why I asked him to elaborate on his meaning and intent, before I start assuming it from the way he phrased his question -_-;;; Why is this so important? (also a lot of questions he’s asking are personal questions)