Abortion, men’s rights, and that asshole in New Mexico
Here's where all the troubles begin
As SallyStrange has pointed out in the comments here, quite a few MRAs seem to have a bad case of “womb envy” – or, more specifically, “abortion envy.” That is, they envy the ability of women to abort fetuses that they – the guys, as sperm providers — have had a part in creating. And since they don’t get final say in whether or not the woman in the equation gets an abortion, many of these guys claim they should have the right to a “paper abortion” – that is, to wash their hands financially of the baby once it is born.
But for every MRA demanding their own right to an abortion, there’s another MRA who thinks abortion is an unmitigated evil, which in essence means that they think pregnant women should be forced to give birth to babies they don’t want. The guy behind The Life Zone evidently thinks this way. And so does one New Mexican pro-lifer named Greg Fultz, who has launched a bizarre campaign designed to shame the woman who aborted what he thinks of as “his” baby – the highlight of which is a giant billboard depicting him holding what looks like the blackened carcass of a baby under the headline “This Would Have Been a Picture Of My 2-Month Old Baby If The Mother Had Decided To NOT KILL Our Child!”
I’ve been meaning to write about the Fultz thing for some time, but haven’t, because frankly the whole thing makes me depressed. Over the past day or so three separate Man Boobz readers have brought the subject up, so I figure it’s time to deal with the subject. My solution? I’m going to punt, and rather than post about it specifically I’m just going to point you to an excellent, and nicely sarcastic, post on the subject from Jill on Feministe.
Since Jill wrote that post, Fultz has been ordered by a judge to take the billboard down or face jail; he says he won’t. Details here.
NOTE: I originally ended this post with a 1200 word dissertation spelling out my take on abortion. But reading it back over again I realized that many of the points I made in it had already been made, in many cases more deftly, by various commenters in yesterday’s 800-plus comment thread (which actually stayed on the topic for the first several hundred comments, until more or less everything that needed to be said on the subject had been said). The tl;dr summary: her body, her choice. “Paper abortions” only work if the government is willing to step in to make up for the loss of child support, and that isn’t going to happen in the US any time soon. (And I don’t see many MRAs calling for increased support for single moms.)
So instead of abortion, let’s talk about Fultz. What a dick.
Posted on June 9, 2011, in creepy, men who should not ever be with women ever, MGTOW, misogyny, MRA, patriarchy, sex, vaginas. Bookmark the permalink. 365 Comments.
Jutgory.
Works for me, but what about all the mra’s who are anti-abortion, pro father paper abortions, and also against tax funded support of those could be abortions?
Again, logistically it just doesn’t make sense. Tell me how this could be solved? Do you prefer the Romanian model or the Guatemalan model? Do you have any ideas that have not yet played out?
swedishfish, I am very sorry that happened…
This guy Fultz belongs in jail. He is a psychotic TURD. Also, I hear tell thru the ‘netz that he has at least one other child with another woman? I wouldn’t be surprised if he balks at paying support for that child. And, he wanted another? EW. I get the impression he just wanted another woman to be part of his ‘stable’ (ok, gagging now.).
NEVER having kids, EVER. Hooray for Community Pharmacy, Planned Parenthood and Durex Avanti condoms! :D PRAISE them, big time.
I think it should be legal for the man to sign a document stating that if the woman decides to have the baby instead of getting an abortion IN THE EVENT THAT ABORTION IS A TRUE OPTION she does so with the knowledge that the man cannot be held responsible for the financial costs of the child. This will make the child fully her responsibility and will make MRAs STFU about child support. (You don’t get to see the kid either of course–as far as you’re concerned you’ve had an abortion.)
MRAL
That you can be so easily shifted in your viewpoints is enough for me to say that you need therapy. I’m not engaging you anymore though I do pity you. Not for the eye or the height, but because either you’ll get it together or you’ll be a suicide statistic in the next couple of years. Balls in your court, this board has bent over backwards accommodating your narcissistic thought patterns.
I wasn’t easily shifted, I was presented with a very compelling reason about a day ago to reconsider Choice 4 Men, one I hadn’t run into before. I’m open to change.
Speaking of birth control, I posted this yesterday but I think it got kinda lost in a 900+ comment storm. Yesterday was the 45th anniversary of Griswold V Connecticut!
http://jezebel.com/5809552/happy-birthday-to-your-right-to-birth-control
Yay birth control!!
Hard to believe that was only 45 years ago. 45 years ago my mom was 23 and married to her first husband! (not my dad)
MRAL – I don’t know what to think about a woman who goes through with a pregnancy despite the fact that the father would clearly prefer her to have an abortion, because we don’t really know her reasoning. Is she pro-life or religious? Personally, I am highly pro-choice, but would also only personally consider an abortion in the event of sexual assault or if my life were in danger–is this woman similar? In my life, I have known many women who were told by the man they slept with that if she were to get pregnant, he would not want her to have the child. This is obvioulsy something women need to consider as that is a fairly strong indication that the man is going to want nothing to do with the child if the woman chooses to have it…but should it be a deciding factor? I just can’t say because there are too many variables.
In my life I have tried to make my personal thoughts on abortion and pregnancy abundantly clear to every man I have dated/slept with. I know where all of these men stood, so if the situation came up I wouldn’t be surprised at their response. Luckily, I’ve never had to have the “I’m pregnant” conversation, but I feel fairly certain how it would play out if I did. I guess I assume most adults have these same conversations with their sexual partners.
In the end, what the woman chooses may make you lose respect for the woman; however, as discussed in yesterday’s thread, once there is a baby, the father’s obligation isn’t to the mother, it is to the baby.
Oh, and I agree with the previous post that said that the child doesn’t belong to either the mother or father, but the uterous belongs to the mother. As for love and support (financial and emotional) for the child (from conception on), I think (and hope!) that both parents would share equally…I know I certianly wouldn’t want to be pregnant and have my significant other not give a shit about the life inside of me until it comes out…that would suck!
Changing one’s opinion easily isn’t a sign of needing therapy – it’s just a sign that it wasn’t a very strongly held opinion. Like, if overnight someone convinced me to become pro-life that might be a sign that there was something wrong with me. But if overnight someone convinced me that actually Peet’s coffee is better than Starbucks I wouldn’t be too worried.
Someone above posted a link to Fultz’ violent tweets about his ex, and I think the link is worth reposting:
http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474979418806
There were a lot more than the ones listed; if anyone has a link to all of them (which I saw when I first looked into the story), please post it!
Or that the opinion wasn’t sincerely held in the first place, and the whole cycle of outrageous initial opinion converting to a more reasonable one has been found to be a successful source of attention.
Think what you want dude.
but unlike most of you, I have empathy.
as opposed to 9 months of inconvenience which many women actually enjoy because they’re carrying life and all that spiritual crap
I’d probably hate her.
Just thought I’d juxtapose those. I’ll add more as the thread progresses, surely.
It comes down to being a source of attention. Seraph is right, as amusing as it can be it seems this site is just enabling mral.
I thought he was leaving us after last week’s flounce. Guess we’re not that lucky.
“Or that the opinion wasn’t sincerely held in the first place, and the whole cycle of outrageous initial opinion converting to a more reasonable one has been found to be a successful source of attention.”
Yes. THIS. And I notice that we’re not even 100 comments in and the thread’s becoming all about him. Again.
How is this thread becoming all about me? I’m staying on topic. If you fucking hate me so much ask Futrelle to ban me, or to start that Manboobz Forum and I’ll probably leave your precious comments threads alone.
FULTZ IS ON CNN RIGHT THIS SECOND
The “paper abortion” is one of those ideas that looks good, well, on paper but would have a host of unintended consequences in practice. Expect the child poverty rate to go up even further should it be put into practice. Also, as I’ve said earlier, there is no possible way that the state is going to forgo the right to try to collect money from non-custodial parents of kids receiving government assistance, even if the custodial parent consents. No. Way.
Augh! I don’t have a TV! Someone want to give a summary, plz?
Actually, he’s right. He’s the focus of attention this time because he’s presenting the “yes, Fultz went too far, but you have to understand where he’s coming from” argument. Which, in it’s way, is more important to refute than outright anti-woman hatred like NWOSlave’s. As long as people have this image in their minds of loving husbands who would have been perfect fathers if their wives hadn’t, callously and for no apparent reason (perhaps pure spite) aborted His Baby, instead of the truth of Fultz and Filet’s ex-boyfriend, they’re going to keep sympathizing with the Fultz’s of this world right up to the point (and sometimes beyond) that someone gets dead.
It’s all about educating the lurkers.
Via Feministe: “Nani, Patron Saint of Lucky Escapes”. T Shirt worthy! XD
Re: Paper abortions.
I think that it seems like a good idea, but as many have said above, the feasibility and consequences need to be seriously considered. Particularly, some sort of government funding for the child, and protecting the mother from being threatened/manipulated into it. Also, the role of the father in that child’s life – it’s all fine and dandy to say “he has 0 rights and responsibilities to the child,” but what if the father and mother get back together at a later date? Are their guidelines regarding that?
And Fultz…well wow. This situation is terrifying on many levels, the least of which being the fact that he is STALKING HIS EX-GIRLFRIEND. IMHO this is less an issue of abortion and more of an issue of creepy abusive stalker exes.
The Fultz segment is over. He did not, I think, come off well; something seemed a bit off about him.
The news anchor asked a few tough questions, but obviously didn’t know all the details of the case — he said he never threatened his ex, but the anchor didn’t follow up with a question about his violent comments online. Nor did she comment about him naming his faux organization after his ex when he said it wasn’t really about his ex but about father’s rights. His lawyer was, as you might expect, a lot more articulate, and made it all about “free speech” but he was only asked one or two questions. Most of the segment was Fultz.
MRAL, to answer your question, I think it is really fucked up if a woman chooses to have a child with a man who does not want one. I acknowledge that there is no equitable way to give the man and say in the decision once pregnancy has occurred, but I still think forcing someone to be a father against his will is wrong. If you do not ever want to reproduce I strongly suggest getting a vasectomy, but be prepared to wait a while. It is difficult to obtain a vasectomy if you are both child free and under 30. The pain is relatively minor, the best way for me to describe it is, it feels like getting kicked rather hard in the testicles, but slowed down over the course of 36 hours. It is a very small price to pay to be able to be in control of your own reproductive future.
More specifically, abortion as a means of escaping creepy abusive stalker exes. Imagine if poor Nani hadn’t had her miscarriage or abortion or whatever she had? She’d be bound to this fuckwit forever. This is why so many abusive husbands and boyfriends sabotage or deny birth control.
Yeah, Julia, if I were her I’d be thanking my lucky stars I didn’t have to spend the next 18 years negotiating child support/shared custody/restraining orders with a psychopath like Fultz.
I’d also be extremely angry, humiliated, and probably scared for my life (especially considering those tweets!), but it’s always good to look for the silver lining, eh?
Yes! Silver lining are so flimsy nowadays! I’m gettin better at finding them… I think? :3
http://www.fortheloveofnani.com/
How many female friends have you had again?
Also, a little grammatical pet peeve: You don’t abort a baby/fetus/zygote/whatever, you abort a pregnancy. At least that’s my understanding of it.
@filet *BIG BIG HUGS* :\ I hope you have a good roast :]
@everyone else MRAL’s been here for 2 hours and it’s still under 100 comments? xD You guys are slipping! xD
@holly I’ve always felt uncomfortable about dick and cunt and etc :\ (tho somebody once called me a cuntscab which I thought was hilarious cuz is that like what clots over a wound on a cunt, or one that goes to work while the other vaginas are still picketing? xD I bet MRAs think that any woman who has sex with a man is a cuntscab against feminists xD ) I always wondered if douchebag was an insult against women (i.e. something used by women is automatically something awful), but apparently not :]
@MRAL but ppl here aren’t reacting to your hypothetical situation, so when you realized that it didn’t match up with this case, it behooves you to just kinda let it go for another thread… or at least not act like ppl acting angrily about this situation would not have more nuance with yours :] this is prolly why things became about you, you actually went off topic, and then you’re reacting to YOUR situation, but acting as if the reaction to THIS case is the reaction to your hypothetical situation you brought up xD
Why is my comment in moderation? o_O
Oh. so I’M not on moderation xD I guess it’s cuz it had the c- word in it? xD
The open thread can’t come fast enuf, I have a fashion question I want to ask ppl xD Or maybe I’ll wait until this dies down a bit, or goes off the rails xD It shouldn’t be long… The coming of NWO is nigh!
So, they go to the same college…!? That’s gotta be really stressful! I do hope she has filed a restraining order against this dude…. although, I’ve had two guys violate those orders and stalk me anyway-… I hope she’s got some good friends who can watch her back.
Also, as Holly said upthread, it’s completely normal for a man to feel sad or even hurt if his partner terminates a pregnancy he wanted to see come to term. Just like it’s normal to feel sad and hurt when your partner ends what you thought was a great relationship.
However, it oughta go without saying that as you can’t force someone to stay in a relationship with you EVEN IF you think your partner’s reasons for ending it are total bullshit, you can’t force hir to go through the physical, mental, and emotional ordeal that is pregnancy and birth (even wanted pregnancy and birth is incredibly difficult) just because you feel ready to parent. Even if you think hir reasons for aborting are bullshit, even if zie is a total selfish douchecanoe, the one with the uterus makes the decision.
I know this falls into the “No duh,” category, but it some posters seem to have trouble with simple concepts.
Ami, yeah, the comment was filtered for the c-word. It’s up now. (The c-word is allowed so long as it’s not directed at someone.)
Ami – one that goes to work while the other vaginas are still picketing?
That totally made me LOL!
@Seraph, yeah, my father was one of those who pressured his wife not to have abortions when unplanned pregnancies occured (including blackmailing her by threatening to tell her Catholic mother on whom she relied for support), and who sabatoged birth control. Of course, he was a crap parent who put in minimal effort. My mother had no formal custody agreement and would let us go over any weekend (her one longstanding rule has been that the younger two were not allowed to go without one of us older two to supervise-because my father couldn’t be trusted with supervising a hampster, let alone a small child), though we went about three times a year at most, because he did not want to spend time with us. He paid little to no child support either. Now, he only shows up when he wants money or a place to stay. I am so glad he is in jail (for DUIs and reckless endangerment) instead of sucking money from my sister, taking it out of her and her kid’s mouths to spend on drugs and booze. You know, that if my mother had an abortion instead, he would have been the one whining about “his aborted baby”, the same baby he would be perfectly content to let starve to death. He “wanted” that baby enough to fuck with my mother’s birth control, but so little that my sister and I put in the day to day work of raising her, for the most part, and we paid far more of her expenses. When I was sixteen, he sat in his girlfriends house and got high and I went to work to help support myself and my little sister. These men do not want kids in reality, they only want kids in the abstract where someone else is fucking raising them.
@MRAL, women who have babies the sperm provider did not want almost alwasy end up raising the kid themselves. If not, a female relative generally does. Over here in reality, women and girls generally raise both wanted and unwanted children. I have seen girls have babies their boyfriends wanted nothing to do with-those girls end up raising the baby alone, that is what happens. Unwilling “fathers” pay some money, but they are not forced to put in the actual labor of raising a kid.
Please ask.
This just gets sadder and sadder. As if a person using a billboard to harass his ex-girlfriend somehow wasn’t sad enough in the first place. Apparently, he TOLD her that he wasn’t able to have children. And then she got pregnant. Which — okay, look. It’s entirely possible that he thought that he wasn’t able to have children, and that he was mistaken. That happens. But along with the threatening, violent tweets, where he fantasizes about her death, and the ongoing harassment of her and her friends, it at least makes me wonder if this isn’t a situation where he was trying to trick her into getting pregnancy — and, knowing her anti-abortion stance, was hoping to coerce her into a lifelong relationship.
Again, I don’t know. But it seems possible.
somebody once called me a cuntscab which I thought was hilarious cuz is that like what clots over a wound on a cunt, or one that goes to work while the other vaginas are still picketing?
Lol, we just watched Newsies last night so that’s what I thought of. Vaginas selling papers. And yes, I’m starting to agree we need a forum.
Actually, reading this thread, along with the responses to Nani’s question, is pretty heartbreaking.
What a loathsome piece of shit Fultz is.
http://www.garage.ca/product/index.jsp?productId=11131012&colorId=1134297
Okay so this thing
I’m in love w/ it but I can’t decide if I should get navy blue or grey xD (the navy isn’t on the site for some reason, but it is in the store)
http://www.garage.ca/product/index.jsp?productId=10793722&colorId=1134269
Navy like that
I have bleached blonde hair (which I will fix up this summer) if that helps, and if nebody needs a body shot I can provide that too xD I just can’t decide… cuz the grey is softer, but I dun wear much grey… and I worry it doesn’t look good w/ skin tone (prolly why I dun wear much grey xD )…
w/ MY skin tone (which is pretty naturally tan, and even darker in the summer, it’s my southern Chinese side xD )
@Doctress Julia did you read my comments last night? :\ Would you be open for a paypal thing or something where ppl could donate money to help you? Or would that make you uncomfortable… or about if I could find somebody who could give you a couch to crash on in your area (I dunno if I can, but I know many ppl and they know many ppl xD )? :\ Your situation sounds rly bad and I want to help if I can :|
Alright, so, I took pictures of my sangria. Which came to 4 gallons. And also my citronella beer bottle “torches”, which I think are hilarious. Pictures here if you care: http://www.flickr.com/photos/47990454@N06/
But yeah, I don’t understand why it’s so hard to get these people (MRA’s) to agree that this dude is, yes, a dude, and just a shitty person. What part of harassment, attempted coercion, and just general shit-bag-itude is EVER ok?
I generally prefer vivid colours in women’s clothing. I’d go with the navy blue over the grey.
filetofswedishfish – your cat’s toe floof! It’s so cute! And floofy!
Ami – I second Spearhafoc, I like the navy blue better.
Ami!!!!! It keeps kicking me to the home page. Can you describe it, and I’ll see if I can find it on the site? I have crap taste in clothes, but I like to vote on things.
“my sangria. Which came to 4 gallons”
Are you sure that’s enough??? Good thing I’m not coming. Looks delish!
Ami!!!!! Sorry. I found it. I searched on the number. The stripey pocket tee? I agree with everyone else. I think maybe with blonde hair the light grey would be too washed out? Go navy!
My guess? Siege mentality. Women are their enemies, so they must side with any man against any woman in any situation, or they’re giving aid and comfort to The Enemy.
Sort of like how they see all rights as zero-sum, where anything that helps women, by necessity, hurts men.
I too am in awe of swedishfish’s cat’s toe hawks.
The really long toe-hawk belong to my mother’s cats. My cat is the mini-panther what shows his belly a lot. Also, I have that confused looking pit puppy. But thanks, guys! They were my kitties when I still lived with ma!
Also: Bee: For a guest list of 30+? Gee I hope so, but we’re telling people sorta BYO-Hard Liquor, and getting a keg. So. Maybe there will be enough for enough to drink their faces off? Tomorrow we pick up the pig! 50 pounder, and I get to marinate/pre-season it and so forth. So much pork!
I don’t know Ami, I would go for the grey I think that would look nice with your hair. Especially because the stripes are so big, and you are not a sailor (as far as I know). But actually, go with whatever color you feel most comfortable in.
I have discovered that the key to the world’s most kickass sangria is canned Lychees in syrup. Seriously, try it sometime, it is amazing. Works in both red and white. I like to use 2 Buck Chuck Syrah or Merlot as my base wine ’cause it’s so cheap, but Bonny Doon Big House Red is even better (and still not all that expensive).
Ami, I think with your coloring the navy would work best.
Katz, the kittehs are adorable. And the Sangria looks delicious.
This seems to be Fultz’s twitter account:
http://twitter.com/#!/prdpgn
I’m a little surprised that he’s UU. Well, assholes are everywhere.
Plymouth- I bought Vella boxed wine :) And while I love Lychees, I don’t know anywhere here that carries them. Strawberries, watermelon, lemons, oranges, and a nectarine will have to do :/
Hellkell- they’re my critters and foods. But thank you :)
@Snowy that’s actually my concern! That I’d look like a sailor xD And I often am jealous about how nice grey looks on some other girls w/ blonde hair, but it could be the skin tone difference…
Swedishfish’s pupzzors also looks like a sweetheart.
Zombie: He’s a giant, giant baby. He thinks he’s a lapdog. Also, he will do anything for buttscratches and bites of fruit and vegetables.
*drooling*
Pig and sangria are two of my favoritest things in the world, and here I am stuck with pug and wine. I could chop up strawberries and oranges and put them in the wine, I guess, but I am sadly out of brandy and club soda.
I has a sad.
Maybe there will be enough for enough to drink their faces off?
I recommend starting now.
And pugs, despite their porcine little bodies and tails and weird grunty noises, are deceptively NOT delicious. Again, sadly.
But yeah, I don’t understand why it’s so hard to get these people (MRA’s) to agree that this dude is, yes, a dude, and just a shitty person. What part of harassment, attempted coercion, and just general shit-bag-itude is EVER ok?
No matter how horrific a particular man’s behavior gets, you will never get an MRA to say anything more critical than, “Well, sure, maybe it was a LITTLE over the top to call for the mass execution of all women/gang-rape a female journalist/stalk an ex-girlfriend to the point of erecting billboards about how much you hate her, but I can totally see where he was coming from, because WHORES WHORES WHORES WHORES WHORES”
Sounds about accurate on the MRAs talking about men. Yet they demand that all feminists immediately jump to their side against women when a woman is just accused of doing something bad.
And if a man is convicted of some kind of harm to a woman, obviously the entire world is against him and feminists are wrong to support the woman.
Club soda? Huh. I never put that in Sangria. Interesting idea.
I’m lucky to live in an area with lots of Asian people so there are lot of Asian markets that sell lots of lychees! Hell, I’m lucky to live in an area where I can pretty much get any kind of food if I look hard enough :)
And bitches! Don’t forget bitches.
Fultz’s lawyer plans to argue that the billboard is protected speech, using the Supreme Court decision on the Westboro Baptist Church funeral picketing. Are there any lawyers in the house? I don’t see how stalking is a free-speech issue . . .
I ain’t a lawyer, Hippodameia, but my guess is that the focus is on the bill board, which is free speech, not stalking.
Except that free speech doesn’t usually protect incitement, and I wonder if you could argue for that based on the whole “KILLED MY BABY” thing and the similarity between organization and name… Though if the WBC can say “God Hates Fags” and “Thank God for Dead Soldiers…” Then again the billboard isn’t religious, its slander. But yeah, if anything, they should ignore the billboard and focus on the stalking.