Abortion, men’s rights, and that asshole in New Mexico
Here's where all the troubles begin
As SallyStrange has pointed out in the comments here, quite a few MRAs seem to have a bad case of “womb envy” – or, more specifically, “abortion envy.” That is, they envy the ability of women to abort fetuses that they – the guys, as sperm providers — have had a part in creating. And since they don’t get final say in whether or not the woman in the equation gets an abortion, many of these guys claim they should have the right to a “paper abortion” – that is, to wash their hands financially of the baby once it is born.
But for every MRA demanding their own right to an abortion, there’s another MRA who thinks abortion is an unmitigated evil, which in essence means that they think pregnant women should be forced to give birth to babies they don’t want. The guy behind The Life Zone evidently thinks this way. And so does one New Mexican pro-lifer named Greg Fultz, who has launched a bizarre campaign designed to shame the woman who aborted what he thinks of as “his” baby – the highlight of which is a giant billboard depicting him holding what looks like the blackened carcass of a baby under the headline “This Would Have Been a Picture Of My 2-Month Old Baby If The Mother Had Decided To NOT KILL Our Child!”
I’ve been meaning to write about the Fultz thing for some time, but haven’t, because frankly the whole thing makes me depressed. Over the past day or so three separate Man Boobz readers have brought the subject up, so I figure it’s time to deal with the subject. My solution? I’m going to punt, and rather than post about it specifically I’m just going to point you to an excellent, and nicely sarcastic, post on the subject from Jill on Feministe.
Since Jill wrote that post, Fultz has been ordered by a judge to take the billboard down or face jail; he says he won’t. Details here.
NOTE: I originally ended this post with a 1200 word dissertation spelling out my take on abortion. But reading it back over again I realized that many of the points I made in it had already been made, in many cases more deftly, by various commenters in yesterday’s 800-plus comment thread (which actually stayed on the topic for the first several hundred comments, until more or less everything that needed to be said on the subject had been said). The tl;dr summary: her body, her choice. “Paper abortions” only work if the government is willing to step in to make up for the loss of child support, and that isn’t going to happen in the US any time soon. (And I don’t see many MRAs calling for increased support for single moms.)
So instead of abortion, let’s talk about Fultz. What a dick.
Posted on June 9, 2011, in creepy, men who should not ever be with women ever, MGTOW, misogyny, MRA, patriarchy, sex, vaginas. Bookmark the permalink. 365 Comments.
Important note – It’s quite possible that Fultz’s ex didn’t actually have an abortion. She claims it was a miscarriage, and he just decided it had to be an abortion. He’s also apparently got a pattern of stalking and harassing her.
And not to bring another angry, angry dog into this fight, but he’s in his thirties and she was eighteen when she had the pregnancy scare, making it rather likely that he started seeing her before she was even a legal adult. Yechh.
I do hope Fultz gets to go to jail. For a looooooooooooooooong time.
In France women have the right to give birth anonymously. Instead of the name of the mother the doctor writes an “X” on the birth certificate. The law stems from the time when real abortions were illegal and punished with death. This is some kind of “paper abortion”. I’ve also heard that it’s possible for fathers to decline the paternity, but I’m not sure about that. Maybe someone from France reads this and can comment on the legal situation.
The argument for the law is that it prevents desperate mothers from abandoning or killing their unwanted children. The argument against it is that children have the right to know about their origin. It’s a tricky ethical question.
So instead of abortion, let’s talk about Fultz. What a dick.
As a long-time appreciator of dicks, I think you are being unfair. Fultz is more like a jar of mayonnaise left in the sun for several days than a dick. I hope karma ensures that every woman he would ever like to date again sees that billboard, and makes the only logical decision possible based on it.
Fultz is more like a jar of mayonnaise left in the sun for several days than a dick.
Or the cuecumber at the back of the veggie drawer that’s been in there for three months and is now liquid.
Cucumber, drat it.
From my pro-choice standpoint I don’t think it’s right, but unlike most of you, I have empathy. IF a pro-life person believes their baby has been killed, I can totally understand this.
These screencaps from Fultz’s twitter are pretty terrifying.
I bet the MRAs are going to hold him up as some kind of hero, though.
but unlike most of you, I have empathy.
Ludicrous.
From my pro-choice standpoint I don’t think it’s right, but unlike most of you, I have empathy.
That’s the funniest thing I’ve read all day!
IF a pro-life person believes their baby has been killed, I can totally understand this.
Yeah, but that doesn’t give them the right to erect a giant billboard and harass/stalk their ex, and encourage other people to do the same.
And it might not even have been an abortion – he might be making her miserable over a miscarriage.
Shorter Mr. Al IF a person has a penis, I have much more sympathy for them.
Yeah, he’s the dude I’m terrified of running into in the real world. Mostly because I *have* run into/dated/known Those Dudes. Why, you ask? Many of them are very, very good at hiding it. And until something like the above happens, you don’t know, or can write off, how they actually are.
I dated a dude for two years (we broke up almost a year ago). Two months into the relationship, he knocked me up, and I’d been writing off all the little weird idiosyncrasies I’d been noticing. I kept it quiet, and saved up my money. However, I was farther along than I thought (I was at 14 weeks- yikes), and needed to be sedated for the procedure. So I had to tell him, and I could not go alone. You can’t drive on twilight sedation. He was sort of supportive, but he kept telling me he wished we could keep it. And kept trying to convince me to keep it. He was 26, I was 22, all his friends were getting married, having kids, it was like a goal post for him ( he had had a child at a young age in the Army, and been briefly married, saw it as a failure). But after the procedure, we got home, and he kept saying all this stuff, I was like “Well geez, if this had happened how I wanted, you wouldn’t have known, and thus wouldn’t have had to deal with it, dude. I don’t want to marry or have kids, especially at my age”, and he fuh-lipped-out. That marked the beginning of the emotional abuse that lasted until I got out of that lease, just over a year later. The abortion and “his child” came up, a lot. Nearly every fight we had. People who feel entitled to use the wombs of others can be sneaky shits.
By the way, calling people “dicks” always made me a little uncomfortable. It’s not exactly equivalent to calling people terms for the female genitalia, but… it’s kinda got something in common, doesn’t it? And it can also come off as homophobic/sexphobic, in that it implies that a dick is something comically gross, when hey, I kinda like those.
…however, I have no problem calling people “asshole,” despite kinda liking those too. Perhaps I’m having an attack of literalism, or perhaps it’s just that assholes aren’t gendered.
I’ll go with my old standby: “poophead.” Fultz, for putting up billboards bitterly deriding his teenage ex for having an abortion she might not even have had, is a poophead.
Filet is one of those people who thinks men are abusers and creeps for wanting to even attempt to have a say in the abortion of a fetus that is half theirs.
You can understand their feelings, or you can understand the urge to post a billboard of your ex telling everyone who passes by on the highway that she’s a murderer when you’re not even sure she had an abortion?
Holly, I have always been kind of partial to “Turdwaffle”.
Although in recent days, I have been reserving that for Scott Walker.
a fetus that is half theirs.
possession is 9/10ths of the law.
I like the term ‘gutter slime’ myself. It’s probably unfair to gutter slime, but it works. Douche/douchebag also works, because douching is an unnecessary, vagina-phobic practice.
Filet, that’s awful! I had an ex who I suspect near the end of the relationship was trying to get me pregnant. It didn’t happen, thankfully, but he probably would have reacted the same way.
Also, I think it’s important to note that prior to creation of the billboard, he was Facebook-stalking her and all her friends. He named the organization he created “N.A.N.I” (National Association for Needed Information, how uncreative can you get?) which just happened to be his ex’s first name. A judge ordered him to change that, so he changed it to “C.A.N.I.” (Coalition About Needed Information.) The needed information in this case apparently being that no woman has a right to break up with Greg Fultz and NOT have a billboard about her reproductive choices that may-or-may-not-have-happened put up on the town’s main road.
Also, the local news story has been deleted, but the comments are still available ( http://www.topix.net/forum/source/alamogordo-daily-news/TNKT2P0L7TL6M52P9 ), and apparently this guy has had a long string of failed relationships with much younger women. He was more or less forced to leave Illinois as a result of one of these situations. He has a very disturbing blog about all his many misfortunes at the hands of the women in his life, but I think he’s deleted it now.
Well whatever. No one would deny, even here, that men can and should have some investment in a pregnancy.
Filet is one of those people who thinks men are abusers and creeps for wanting to even attempt to have a say in the abortion of a fetus that is half theirs.
no, you asshole, she said the guy was an abuser because of THE EMOTIONAL ABUSE THAT CONTINUED FOR NEARLY A YEAR.
The pregnancy and abortion apparently just set him into motion.
swedishfish, sorry you had to read this tudwaffle’s response. His version of “empathy”, I guess.
All this shit about abortions and women and men and inequlity and how I apparently have no right to feel anything about the fetus until it pops out of the vagina (a which point I am expected to be totally devoted) is the reason I will never have kids.
David,
Aren’t you always complaining that MRAs do nothing to promote their cause? Then, this guy does something (and I don’t know if he is an MRA but his point of view appears to align with theirs) to raise awareness about an issue and you call it a bizarre campaign.
I guess it is only fair: the suffragettes had their bizarre campaign, and let’s not forget about the freedom riders, or that whole kooky bunch of people and their stonewall riots. If only they realized how fruitless their silly attempts to gain attention would turn out.
-Jut
is the reason I will never have kids.
Vasectomy. Good for you.
No, MRAL, I thought that particular guy was an abusive creep because he used to pin me to the wall by my neck, while he shouted slurs and insults about me in my face. Or stand over me after knocking me to the floor to tell me I was a slob for leaving a jar of jelly on the counter. Or tell me I would never amount to anything in life because I wasn’t willing to marry him just so he could get more pay through the Army.
My current boyfriend, and the few dudes I went on dates with in the interim were lovely, intelligent, funny men. I can make the distinction, and tell the difference, between one dude being a terrible assbasket, and the others who are awesome people.
First of all, more than 90% of the time, it’s an embryo that’s aborted.
Second – half theirs? A woman goes through nine months of hard work and permanent, possibly life-threatening physical changes. A man…ejaculates. Let’s have some perspective here.
No one is saying a guy doesn’t have the right to be upset about it.
But this guy is an abusive douchebag. David didn’t dig up example of a guy posting to a support forum about ‘My girlfriend/wife got an abortion, and I know she had that right, but I’m still really upset over the lost possibility.’ He found a guy who erected a billboard, whose goal is harassing his ex. We’re making fun of him for the billboard and douchebag behavior, not being upset at an abortion-that-didn’t-happen. He doesn’t regret the abortion/miscarriage because of a lost potential for a child, he regrets the fact that this woman is no longer his to control.
@Holly I’m a fan of “douchebag” or any of its variants (like douchecanoe) because douches are actually harmful (or at least irritating) to people, especially women. Plus it’s fun to say.
Oh come on! This IS really fucking bizarre. They broke up over a year prior to the billboard being erected. During that time, he stalked her and all her friends. He maintained a blog about how terrible their relationship was and how everything was her fault. She was maaybe 18 when they first started dating, and she is still younger than 21. He is over 35.
Why do I keep harping on the age difference? Because this is not like a 25 year old and a 35 year old, both of whom have graduated high school and probably college, have independent adult lives. This is a grown adult with a teenager. And he gets her pregnant… several people have initimated that birth control sabotage may have been a factor in that, and it wouldn’t surprise me one bit. This guy has a history of using high-drama, stalker tactics against exes. HE IS AN EMOTIONAL ABUSER, if not during the relationships, the absolutely afterwards. The entire thing is beyond bizarre, and the pro-life group originally affiliated with him and the billboard have distanced themselves an disowned it once they realized what he was up to.
JutGory – You’re all class, aren’t you?
The thing is, this isn’t promoting men’s rights. It’s promoting men’s rights over women. This is like–do go with goofy analogies–if the Stonewall riots had been about gay people’s right to have sex with straight people.
A man has a right to reproductive autonomy–he has a right to get a vasectomy, to use condoms, to avoid penis-in-vagina sex, or to be judicious in who he has penis-in-vagina sex with. But his rights end, and become an infringement on women’s rights rather than an extension of his own, where his partner’s body begins.
Also? He had his say. He wanted to keep it, but was barely working, and in the Reserves. I worked at a minimum wage job. We knew we couldn’t have supported it, and he agreed it was the best path to take. But that didn’t stop him from trying to make me feel awful, and it didn’t stop him from all the gawd-awful shit he pulled over the following year or so.
(Sorry to jack this thread. I just had an example of a creep not dissimilar from the original post)
Victoria beat me to it. Also, turdwaffle is great. I’m adding that to my vocabulary.
“Second – half theirs? A woman goes through nine months of hard work and permanent, possibly life-threatening physical changes. A man…ejaculates. Let’s have some perspective here.”
Lol. And I guess the ensuing 18 FUCKING years (as opposed to 9 months of inconvenience which many women actually enjoy because they’re carrying life and all that spiritual crap) AND the emotional attachment is nothing major?
Go fuck yourself. A woman can ultimately choose abortion because it just so happens to be her body, and I’ve reconsidered Choice 4 Men, but the baby belongs to both parents equally.
Well then it’s a good thing that people abort zygotes and embryos. Phew.
Time to go buy cheap cheap wine to make delicious sangria for a whole pig roast. If you all lived in Madison, and I didn’t already have a guest list of 30 people, you’d be invited. I lurked like hell before posting, and you folks rock.
Parents don’t own their children. If anything, it’s the other way ’round.
MRAL – You said “fetus”. A fetus is not yet a baby. When you talk about a fetus, the 18 years during which a man can directly participate have not yet happened. When you talk about a fetus, it is 100% the woman’s because it is lodged in her body.
And the fact you refer to pregnancy as an “inconvenience” tells me you know nothing about it.
I actually think it’s okay for a guy to feel bad that his partner had an abortion. A certain amount of let-down, even grief in some circumstances, is understandable.
However, putting her name on a billboard is not. Going home and having a good cry and thinking of what could have been is your right; subjecting her to harassment and public humiliation–not so much.
Any woman who thinks the fetus is 100% hers, and says so, is fucking asshole and an emotional abuser.
God, you all are making me love my exes even more. Seriously, my exes are (with one minor exception) really totally awesome people. In fact I even asked two of them to be attendants at my wedding, that’s how awesome they are! And three others were invited to the wedding, two of whom are actually coming.
Even the one ex I don’t speak to isn’t really a totally bad guy, we were just a really bad match and things ended in a bad way with idiocy on both of our parts.
I agree this Fultz man crossed the line. But I’m now putting myself the position of a man whose spouse got an abortion when I actively did not want one and was financially able and willing to support it (not sure if this is the Fultz situation, but it’s probably fairly common), well, I can understand the temptation for Fultz-like actions. The relationship would sure as hell be over, for one thing. I’d probably hate her.
Er, as a uterus-owner I kinda think pregnancy would be inconvenient since I really don’t want kids. My IUD is my friend!! I should give it a name. What’s a good name for an IUD?
She wasn’t his spouse, the relationship was already over, and she was also a teenager while he was in his thirties.
So yeah… definitely crossing the line.
EW! My eggs are not furry.
Well ok then Fultz is a fucking weirdo and borderline predator. But he’s an extreme situation. I bet the scenario I outlined above is far more common.
I want to quote Jill:
“I think we could have a really beautiful life together, me and Greg, since I assume because the pregnancy is 50% his, he’s happy to do 50% of the work of pregnancy. That means he’ll take as much time off from work as I do, right? And he’ll gain between 30 and 80 pounds in a few months? And if I start to have, say, preeclampsia, we’ll be sure to also raise his blood pressure to dangerously high levels until he almost dies. That if I give birth via c-section, he’ll allow doctors to cut open his gut and scoop out what’s in there. And that if I give birth vaginally, we’ll figure out some way for him to push a bowling ball out of his ass. Equal rights, and equal burdens!
“Greg, I’m single! Call me! ”
Yes, the fetus is 100% fucking hers.
Oh, gross. Fultz is an idiot.
I have a feeling these “father’s rights” MRAs are simple control freaks who wouldn’t actually be arsed to do the real work of childcare if it came down to it.
I disagree with the 50/50/100% thing. I think a fetus isn’t anybody’s. It’s its own little lump of potential pre-human, and doesn’t “belong” to anyone.
However, the uterus is 100% the woman’s, and if she wants it empty (or if she wants it not empty), that’s her choice.
Nahidais an abuser.
My point was that “inconvenience” belittles the effort, pain and danger that goes into a pregnancy.
*hugs* for FIlet! I’m sorry that happened to you! Have fun with your pig roast.
High five to Plymouth! I have an IUD too, and man, I love the thing! It’s totally rad. We should have a naming party. Right now I just call mine my Copper Babby Stopper. I could name her Connie, for the doctor who inserted her?
And Fultz is just an atrocious, creepy mudpuddle. That’s all there is too it.
Seriously, what’s to be gained by rubbing it in men’s (supposedly loved husbands) faces that “the fetus is 100% hers”? Sure, she makes the decision regarding abortion, but the fact is the man is invested and it is biologically half his. What about all the support a husband provides the wife during a pregnancy. Making it all about her (as it should be, but still, it’s a sacrifice), caring for her, emotional encouragement? Chopped liver? And then you fymynysts love to talk about how it’s ALL WYMYN, ALL THE TIME (except when the kid pops out and the man is expected to be suddenly entirely devoted after having no attachment throughout the pregnancy. Idiocy much?)
Well, it would be more inconvenient than getting a splinter, but less inconvenient than having my house burn down :)
Why do you suppose that the man in question is a loving husband? Do you think Filet’s boyfriend and Fultz were?
You’d probably hate her, MRAL? You already hate women, so that’s not really a stretch.
I DON’T HATE WOMEN.
Most couples DO in fact make decisions regarding pregnancy together, consult each other, support each other, etc. The 100% hers uterus thing is really only an issue when they disagree in a non-negotiable kinda way. Tie-breaker has to go to someone!
Well, the most common situation is for the husband to be supportive. But appaently they don’t matter because the fymynysts are focused on the fucking freaks like Fultz and the small percntages of emotional abusers.
Ohh, speaking of billboards (all billboards are on topic, right?) who else had all those “the end of the world is coming!” billboards in their city a few weeks back? That was funtimes wasn’t it?
OK I understand the “tie-breaker” concept. I thought about it and don’t have a problem wih that. I just don’t like the “100% hers” concept. Effectively, yes, becase she makes the decisions. But morally, no. I’d rather think of it as, maybe “51% hers”.
YOU DO TOO.
At the very least, you project all your nastiness on to them.
Note, I did NOT say shortcomings, har, har.
Fultz like actions are not the actions of someone who loves their partner. If you really loved your partner, MRAL, and were close to her and really wanted her to be happy, you’d at least be able to understand her reasons for an abortion. She’s not just a uterus there to give you sex and the occasional baby. Being in a relationship means tying your futures together, and understanding that if a baby isn’t right for one of you, it’s not right for both of you. Upset is fine, but hating someone whom you presumably loved over an abortion shows that you actually don’t have that much empathy after all.
Go ahead and be upset if your spouse aborts when you don’t want her to. Fultz is upset over the fact that he can’t control this woman anymore. Think about it – even if they had broken up and she had not miscarried, he could have hounded her for the next 18 years over his parental rights. Yes, he has a right to his child, but I can’t imagine he would have been the perfect father and co-parent.
And men who grieve the loss of a child/potential child usually don’t claim that a miscarriage was actually an abortion; put up billboards harassing their ex; encourage other people to harass their ex… and do all this a *year* after the miscarriage and breakup. A year.
This is all theoretical for me because I don’t really want a family.
The fetus might be equally indebted to both parents for its genetic material, but the pregnancy and the attendant medical risks are 100% the mother’s.
In other “this guy is a creep” news, I forgot about his really colorful history on Twitter: http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474979418806
OK, well then Victoria I assume it goes both ways. If the woman has a baby when the man clearly didn’t want it, is she an insensitive bitch?
MRAL
Where is your Daddy? You’ve stated that you grew up without a father. Were you a virgin birth or did some dude dump you?
As for paper abortions for men I am all for them . However I also know that caring for babies and young children is a full-time job that you do work 24 hours a day.
Mra’s seem to think that taking care of infants involves stuffing a propped bottle in their face a couple of times a day. and toddlers can amuse themselves, neither wakes up multiple times at night or really needs any kind of PARENTING.
I am for men walking away from fetuses they did not wish to conceive. But what about the logistics?
We do not live in a society where a mother can strap her child onto her back and go to work in a rice paddy.
Where will the money and childcare come from?
In my view children should be born only when their parents are able to meet their needs both financially and emotionally. That would be my perfect society. But I live in the real world and understand that someone has to rear the children.
This has lead me to the following conclusion: If you are anti-abortion and pro paper abortion you must also be advocating for full state sponsored daycare, and great welfare for those fetus you so desperately want to live. If you are not fully in support of the above frankly you don’t give a dam about children (who used to be your beloved fetus).
Victoria: “if a baby isn’t right for one of you, it’s not right for both of you.”
But, if “you” are a man, you don’t get to decide.
Holly: A man has a right to reproductive autonomy–he has a right to get a vasectomy, to use condoms, to avoid penis-in-vagina sex, or to be judicious in who he has penis-in-vagina sex with. But his rights end, and become an infringement on women’s rights rather than an extension of his own, where his partner’s body begins.
I will agree with what you say, if you agree that he will not be held responsible for her decisions. Her body, her choice, her responsibility. I thought feminists believe in female agency. Why do they want men to be responsible for the choices women make?
By the way, I am not defending this guy’s character, or any harassment he may have engaged in. However, the message, taken by itself is valid, whether or nothe had: 1) a girlfriend, 2) who got pregnant, and 3)who miscarried, aborted, or gave birth. Not a single one of those things have to be true in order for someone who believes in an idea to promote it on a billboard.
-Jut
Only if she takes out a billboard harassing her ex, lying about him publicly and encouraging other people to harass him.
Kave: “I am for men walking away from fetuses they did not wish to conceive. But what about the logistics?
We do not live in a society where a mother can strap her child onto her back and go to work in a rice paddy.
Where will the money and childcare come from?”
Well, if she does not think she can afford a child, she should just abort, right? I thought that was the whole point: she needs to have the choice. If sh can not handle the consequences of that choice, she should choose something else.
-Jut
My dad is I think in Florida somewhere. I really have no idea. I’ve said, obviously men should not walk away from their child. I’m no longer in favor of Choice 4 Men. However, what should we think of a woman who has a child, CLEARLY against the father’s wishes? Simple question.