“No I won’t read your literature … bitch!” and other thoughts on female fiction from the dudes of The Spearhead
This better not be written by some dame!
So Esquire magazine recently posted a list of “The 75 Books Every Man Should Read” on their website. Esquire being Esquire – that is to say, a men’s magazine that had its glory days in the era of Mad Men and that seems to be aimed mostly at old farts (and aspiring old farts) — only one book of the 75 was written by a woman. (That’s 98.67% male, for those of you with lady brains who can’t do the math.)
The internet being the internet, some people noticed that the list was a wee bit heavy on the dudes, even for a men’s magazine, and pointed this out. The bloggers at the Joyland Publishing blog suggested that while the books on Esquire’s list were “mostly fantastic,” it might behoove men to pick up a book or two written by a woman once in a while. And so, with the help of some of their readers, the two assembled a list of “250 Books By Women All Men Should Read.” (Why 250 and not, say, 75? Because they got a lot of suggestions.)
Here’s a little one-question quiz for you all: What title did W. F. Price at The Spearhead give his post on the controversy?
A) “Some Great Suggestions for Books by Women You Guys Might Want to Read.”
B) “Did You Know There Are Female Authors Besides The Chick That Wrote Harry Potter?”
C) “Feminist Publishers: Force Men to Read Women’s Lit”
Yep, the correct answer is C, of course. Apparently a couple of bloggers suggesting some books by women that men “should” read is some kind of Gestapo-like imposition upon men by “Feminist Publishers.” Price grouses:
[I]it strikes me as rather mean-spirited of females in the publishing industry to denounce even ineffectual efforts to introduce men to literature. By all accounts, publishing has come to be dominated by women, and men are reading far fewer books than women these days. Given this state of affairs, you’d think that the women in the industry might be a bit gracious and let the boys pick and choose which titles interest them.
But of course that won’t do, because feminists must find fault with any and everything men are involved in. …
The implication [of the Joyland Publishing blog post] is that men should be forced by political pressure to read female writers (sometimes these feminists come off as whiny, annoying girlfriends complaining that “he just won’t listen to me!”).
Or, you know, it might just be that the writers of the blog post, and those who wrote in with suggestions, really enjoyed the books in question and thought that dudes might just enjoy them too. Sort of like when a friend tells you that you should totally watch the movie Dogtooth, because it is so fascinating and creepy and awesome. Or when I tell you right now that you should go watch Jane Austen’s Fight Club on Funny or Die.
Naturally, the comments from Spearheaders were even more ignorant and obtuse than Price’s post. The basic theme: Bitches can’t write for shit (as far as I know).
In case you think I am offering an unfair characterization of the, er, debate, here’s one Spearheader’s contribution to the discussion:
when a man says “no, I won’t read your literature”, you have to respect that, bitch.
And another’s:
I basically do not read anything a wimminz has written, not even in my favourite genre of science fiction, because every single time I have tried they have been unmitigated fucking crap full of feminazi girl power bullshit and emotional baggage and basically very little hard SF…
And still another’s:
I never read anything written by women unless it happens to be instructional and related to work. Pretty much all the fiction I’ve ever read is by and for males. If I read some non-fiction for fun it’s always got a male author. I realized a while back that my cd collection is about 98% male. When I was a kid I never thought about it, it just came naturally. Now that I’m older I intentionally avoid anything by women.
It’s always,er, instructive to see what some random guy who apparently reads mostly instructional manuals has to say about the literary controversies of the day.
There were, of course, more thoughtful analyses, like this earnest comment from the excitable, exclamation-point-happy David K. Meller:
Women write for an audience of their own level–to wit themselves! Most men are simply too intelligent to be interested in what passes for literature scribbled by women! …
Correct me if I am wrong, but is most woman’s “literature” one more kvetch klatsch of women–or girls–getting together to complain about, to defeat, or to evade the workings of us evil, letcherous, abusive, horrible M-E-N! There is no point in men reading such drivel …
There may be better days coming; when women are once again taught the arts of pleasing men, in their creating a comfortable environment for the chosen man in their lives, and when they again will use their ability to read to discover new and better ways to do this, and their ability to write to communicate these truths to others of their sex! Until that happens, literacy for women, much less dominance in authorship, editing, and publishing has been, and is, a BLOODY MESS for everyone, especially men!!
PEACE AND FREEDOM!!
David K. Meller
Yes, women should really only be allowed to read and write if they are reading or writing instructional manuals on how to cook and give better blow jobs, possibly at the same time.
PEACE AND FREEDOM!! to you too, good sir.
Speaking of which — the blowjob bit, not the PEACE AND FREEDOM!! — the commenter calling himself dragnet suggested that young men such as himself were simply too busy to read much of anything. They have other priorities:
The vast majority of my reading is for work, research, and classes. …
Frankly, I’d rather be getting laid than reading a novel after a grueling work week. The three or four hours I sometimes have free on the weekend when I’m not working or working out or sleeping or eating, I’d rather be out with my friends or getting serviced by whatever girl I’m with at the time.
It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a penis, must be in want of some girl to service it.
PEACE AND FREEDOM!!1!!
Anyway, ladies and manginas, any good lady books you want to suggest for the dudes of the world?
Posted on June 1, 2011, in antifeminism, evil women, I'm totally being sarcastic, idiocy, men who should not ever be with women ever, MGTOW, misogyny, MRA, oppressed men, reactionary bullshit, the spearhead, Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink. 359 Comments.
@Zombie about Frankenstein: yeah, that kind of thinking is what makes me so skeptical of critics sometimes. “oh, that’s okay because it’s old.” Writing is writing. If you don’t like the genre that’s fine, don’t read it, but don’t pretend that it’s somehow ‘lesser’ for being written in a different way.
Anywhoo… >.< I actually haven't read much of his recent stuff. I recently listened through the Gunslinger series twice, and my favorites are his older stuff, especially IT. I'll have to pick up something new, soon, and see if I agree.
I have to say, though, that movies never really do him justice at all. IT was a good mini-series as far as mini-series go, but had absolutely nothing on the book.
Chiming in with more GRRM love! I have loved those books ever since I first discovered them. The sexual violence is difficult to read, but the characters are fascinating. Particularly the female characters. He avoids the one-dimensional archetypes that continually pop up in fantasy fiction (hello, Robert Jordan. Greetings, JRR Tolkien).
@MRAL; well, different strokes.
Great (or really good) women authors:
George Eliot
Jane Austen
MFK Fisher
Iris Murdoch
Flannery O’Connor
H.D. (poet)
Lorrie Moore
Beryl Bainbridge
Virginia Woolf
Peal S. Buck
Alice Munro
Eudora Welty
Sarah Vowell
Jeannette Winterson
Agatha Christie
There’s been a kind of subdued buzz about writing prizes and gender over the past few years. Women’s writing is seen as “small and domestic,” while men write “ambitious” works; and ambition always is seen as more worthy of notice, even if the small, domestic novel is better crafted.
From the linked article:
But that’s the problem with sexism. It doesn’t happen because people — male or female — think women suck. It happens for the same reason a sommelier always pours a little more in a man’s wine glass (check it!), or that that big, hearty man in the suit seems like he’d be a better manager. It’s not that women shouldn’t be up for the big awards. It’s just that when it comes down to the wire, we just kinda feel like men . . . I don’t know . . . deserve them.
The above may be true in the case of writing prize judges. In the case of the Spearhead commenters, I’m sure its both that they think women suck and that men are more deserving of a read.
@Nobby; IT was one of the only made-for-TV movies that ever scared the crap out of me, but they muffed the ending.
Tim Curry was SUPERB.
The “big” comment is heightism, not sexism. A tall woman is seen as a good manager too.
“Wymyn author” is a term I use for female authors who would not get the attention they get if they were male. “Women authors”, like Virginia Woolf, get the attention they get because they write good books.
Which is exactly what I said it was: a thing you made up because you think it sounds witty and cutting, but in reality is depressingly stupid.
yeah, that kind of thinking is what makes me so skeptical of critics sometimes.
Yeah, me too. Although not always; last week I received a Major Award (although not as a writer)! In this case, the jury OBVIOUSLY was responding to my innate ability, consummate skill, and considerable charm; and, of course, that I am a man. [this is where some kind of smiley goes]
@Zombie Oh, yeah, it was a great show. And I’m not sure about the ending, King goes really far out at that point and I’m not sure there was a good way to translate that to screen. But have you read the book? It’s like the intensity is just kicked up quite a few notches. Maybe it’s just me, but while the movie was cool and scary at parts, the book actually freaked me out really intensely. Heck, I’m usually pretty good with horror, but every few weeks I’ll be in a bathroom and just know that I’ll turn around and see a balloon behind me. Gah.
Mr. Al: The “big” comment is heightism, not sexism.
Here’s something to try: Read words in context. Don’t just pick out a word that excites you and run with it. Read ALL the words.
I recognize Sarah Vowell. Really cool historical writer, chooses good topics. I read her newest book Unfamiliar Fishes. Buy-worthy.
I recently listened through the Gunslinger series twice
I really quite liked how parts of the Gunslinger were interwoven with some of his other books.
But, wow, embarking on reading a ten novel series is kind of daunting when you start. Although it is much better than L. Ron Hubbard’s piece of crap.
But have you read the book?
well, absolutely. One of the characters is an architect.
Well what else should I be focusing on? I don’t agree with much of anything else in that post.
Wait, ten novels? Am I missing some?
but every few weeks I’ll be in a bathroom and just know that I’ll turn around and see a balloon behind me. Gah.
Well, then you’d best also avoid The Moving Finger.
I like Bujold’s stuff. I’ll also commend Elizabeth Bear, James Tiptree, Mary Doria Russell.
The thing about Frankenstein is that Percy did some editing, for the second edition. It hurt the book, but there is a version out there which he had a hand in.
I’m not a huge Bradley fan, and I find McCaffery problematic; but they aren’t bad books.
I like Georgette Heyer as well.
And Agatha Christie.
I would say (to asnwer Beth) that Patrick O’Brian writes great stuff; and his women are believable (at least to me).
MRAL: Unless you read them how do you know if the authors aren’t any good?
The Problem with your model of, “wymenz” is it fails to account for how publishing works. My family has been in the book trade for… 30 years, more or less, and I have a lot of friends who are either authors, or in publishing.
It’s not about politics (well excepting presses like Regenry). It’s about money. If the story is good, it gets published. In the day there were a lot of female writers who had to pretend to be men to get published (Tiptree, Norton, immedieately come to mind). I would say they, by your formula, “were published because they were men”.
Why? Because when they submitted stories under their own name, they were denied. When they pretended to be men, they weren’t.
QED it was being male which got those stories published.
That works because there are a lot more books submitted than any publisher can afford to put on the market, so they can be as bigotted at the folks at Spearhead and still make a living.
(as to Seannen: in addition to last year’s Campbell Award, she was just nominated [well, a month ago] for a Hugo this year: My Fiancee does the first pass editing on her books. Tells me I should read them
No, sorry, Nobby, only seven. I think in the first book he talked about ten total.
How has no one mentioned Margaret Atwood yet? I must have read The Blind Assasin six times in Peace Corps.
Also, Tamora Pierce has been putting out really good YA books for the past twenty years.
Andre Norton was one of my first Sci-Fi love affairs. (Fun Fact: she publishes under a male pseudonym because: misogyny. She did start writing in the 30s tho.)
Pecunium, maybe in the past, but now it’s advantageous to be a wymyn author, because you get attention for shit.
also, for skiffy, I have to endorse Andre Norton. Some of her stories made quite an impression on me as a teenager.
Oh hey, this lady-author just won a Nebula Award for her story. READ IT:
http://subterraneanpress.com/index.php/magazine/summer-2010/fiction-the-lady-who-plucked-red-flowers-beneath-the-queens-window-by-rachel-swirsky/
Also, the Margaret Atwood.
And Katharine Dunn’s Geek Love was awesome.
for science fiction short works, I am quite fond of the Best Science Fiction of the Year anthologies by Gardner Dozois. There are many women authors represented, and a wide diversity of story types and styles.
MRAL, what female authors are you thinking about – the ones who receive attention for shit?
Leigh Brackett is an interesting case. You can’t call her a feminist author, because she came out of the pulp sf tradition, and stuck with it for the rest of her career. She always wrote male POV characters, and they were all basically Humphrey Bogart. OTOH, she was very good at it, and is now considered one of the exemplars of the Planet Story style of sf.
On a completely different note, there’s historical novelist Sharon Kay Penman. Even if you think Richard III did kill the Princes in the Tower, you’re going to find The Sunne in Splendour un-put-downable.
Here’s a piece in The Independent on the Percy/Mary Shelley Frankenstein-writing controversy. He worked with her quite extensively as an editor as she was writing the book, but didn’t write it.
Fun fact: editors often make enormous changes to books and articles.
Fun fact: editors often make enormous changes to books and articles.
you don’t say.
MRAL: What part of I have actual experience with publishing/authors/the book trade did you not pay attention to.
Also, you asked for authors who are published because they were male. I gave them.
Now… who are these authors who are being published because they are female, as opposed to being authors people are willing to pay money to read?
Names, and reasons. Show your work.
from David’s link:
He made the monster far more human,
THANK YOU.
Yes, David, that’s me up there. I got the email addy wrong.
Pecunium, maybe in the past, but now it’s advantageous to be a wymyn author,
spoken from his 20 years of experience as a male not-author.
Zombie: It’s why men are outnumbered by women in the list of published books. All the preference women get.
Well, Pecunium, that will just be because women are so inherently inferior at brain-work like writing. If not for the bias, there wouldn’t be ANY books written by women.
Also, is there a sarcasm smiley?
Zombie: But we know that’s not it, because the wymmminnsez don’t read the books by men, and they just buy books by other wymmmmmennsesz because they weren’t written by men.
Its the misandry inherent in the system. Men just can’t get a break.
wymmmmmennsesz
Gesundheit.
But we know that’s not it, because the wymmminnsez don’t read the books by men,
don’t be silly. Women only get hysterics if they learn how to read.
Seanan McGuire is also another urban fantasy writer I enjoy, and has written a book entitled ‘Feed’ under the name Mira Grant, which is a fantastic novel set 20 years after the zombie apocalypse.
Eeee! Seanan’s a friend of mine and she is awesome.
Right now I’m reading Margaret Atwood’s The Robber Bride and Sarah Vowell’s The Wordy Shipmates. Just finished The Lathe of Heaven by Ursula LeGuin, after meaning to get around to her novels for ages.
I occasionally read books by men if they’re as good as books by women, who are obviously all geniuses at writing, but I refuse to be pressured into reading inferior books by myn authors to be politically correct. By “myn authors,” I mean those writers who whine all the time about their penises and their midlife crises and only get published because they’re male. There’s only so many hours in the day, you know?
MRAL, what female authors are you thinking about
I suspect teh Furious Googling resulted.
Just finished The Lathe of Heaven
LIKE.
Also, if you want to investigate moving pictures versions, find the Public TV version done quite some time ago, not the recent big-budget travesty.
You make jokes about how only wywmyn read books written by wymym, but it’s true! The only reason someone like Franzen Ferdinand gets published is because there are a few editors out there who are willing to risk publishing a book by a man.
Shaenon, also check out The Dispossessed.
I don’t think my link worked up there. Here it is again. It explains how privileged women authors are often overlooked for the major writing prizes.
Mr. Al: You may have disagreed with everything in my comment (and please, feel free to take issue with the list of my favorite women writers; but know that “disagreeing” with a fact like fewer women writers get big literary prizes is … pointless at best), but my point was that when one reads the phrase “a big man in a suit” and says, Ah ha! That is heightist! that’s not as good of a reading as recognizing what the author is talking about is sizeism, misogyny, and classism. Just trying to make the very small (no pun intended) point, actually, that your taste in books(and your confusion in the world) may be informed by either your prejudices or your poor comprehension.
@Zombie to @Shaenon Agreed with suggestion! I just picked that up a year or so ago, it’s a great book. And Left Hand Of Darkness is generally considered her best, though I think I prefer dispossesed myself.
Also, have you checked out her short stories? Because I strongly recommend ‘Changing Planes’ to anyone who hasn’t read it.
The Dispossessed is just so… relevant to the current times, you know?
Oooh, an author published because he was male came to me while I was out: William Faulkner. Seriously, can you imagine someone publishing The Sound and the Fury by Wilhelmina Faulkner?
as to Seannen: in addition to last year’s Campbell Award, she was just nominated [well, a month ago] for a Hugo this year
I hope she wins, she’s an amazing writer!! If you like Seanan, I recommend Lilith Saintcrow as well.
I must check out some of these, especially the zombie stories. I do love a good post-apocalyptic and/or dystopia story. I like Stephen King, too, and although I agree that Cell was not as good as some of his other stuff (The Stand! The Gunslinger books!), it did give me the heebie-jeebies big time. For like a week every time I thought of calling someone I had a brief moment of “No! The phone is bad!…Wait, that’s pretend.”
Just finished McMaster Bujold’s whole Vorkosigan series, and I really liked that too. And I’ll second ‘Changing Planes,’ too.
For like a week every time I thought of calling someone I had a brief moment of “No! The phone is bad!…Wait, that’s pretend.”
me too!
But when a made-up story makes you do that, how can you describe it as “not so good”?
But; cell phone zombies. Kind of contrived.
You make jokes
It is how I deal with modern post-life.
It also tends to keep away the trolls.
Joanne Rowling was published as JK Rowling because her publishers didn’t want to risk having a female name on the jacket. Is that recent enough for you MRAL?
Now it’s true that female writers do have an advantage in some parts of publishing– men who want to write romance or chick lit generally assume a female name–but male authors are still doing quite well for themselves.
It is kind of interesting that neither lists (and the comments above from what I have seen) mention AYN RAND.
I am not a big fan of Rand but her books are very popular. And, a lot of them appeal to men.
What I did not like about the responsive list is that it was not as clear why I should read them. At least, the Esquire list gave me some idea why I would find it interesting. I have read some of the books on the alternate list, but, of the ones with which I was unfamiliar, I had no idea why I should read it.
-Jut
Lady VVS: I’m going to pretend you didn’t say that about Faulkner. LOVE him. “As I Lay Dying?” Brilliant.
But seriously, male writers who were published because they were male … I’ve gotta say that calls to mind bad writers who write like they’re kicking a post. Hemingway, DeLillo, Roth … fucking Tucker Max, people.
I also find that jokes tend to keep the trolls away. In fact, ZRM, you’re one of the people* who taught me that.
* For certain values of post-breathing personhood.
well, Pez, that actually made my day.
My days are pretty boring.
Because as great as the world-building at the beginning was (and I thought it was! I kept imagining just how it could play out if the cell phone zombie signal came at various times when I was going about my daily business), I found the ending disappointing. I find it difficult to continue enjoying a world-gone-mad story when the explanation for WHY the world’s gone mad is “Uh…computers! Yeah, that’s it, computers! *jazz hands*” (See also: “The plants hate us!” and “Scientists meddled in the affairs of gods, or something, they should stop that!”)
But seriously, male writers who were published because they were male
Clancy? L. Ron Hubbard? Glenn Beck? The guy who wrote the Iron Man books? JOHN GRAY?!?!
the explanation for WHY the world’s gone mad is … *jazz hands*”
see, the way I fixed that MAKES TOTAL SENSE.
I would totally see that movie.
Lady VVS: I’m going to pretend you didn’t say that about Faulkner. LOVE him. “As I Lay Dying?” Brilliant.
I have to confess that I am not a fan of Faulkner, mostly because I find the stream-of-consciousness style to be more irritating than genius. My larger point, though, was that a woman certainly could NOT have written Faulkner’s book and published them without even more scandal than they already enjoyed. When Faulkner wrote about sibling incest, it was controversial and edgy. If a woman wrote about the exact same themes, in the exact same settings, she’d have been pilloried even more than Faulkner was.
I actually do read mostly male authors and buy music with mostly male vocalists. But I certainly don’t use that as a filter – that just happens to be the stuff I like. But I have a few.
Diane Duane is pretty awesome. Her Young Wizards series starts out for a very young audience but it grows up quickly (reading the first book as an adult I found it somewhat difficult to get through because it is SO young)
Also, a great young adult series about feral cats called the Warriors Series is actually by a team of 3 female authors who go by the name Erin Hunter.
I liked Ann McCaffrey a lot in high school but later on I got kinda tired of all the happy endings. A lot of her stuff just wraps up too neatly. Her son has taken over the Dragonriders series and some of his stuff has gotten back to the original, where people actually DIE once in a while :P
“Scientists meddled in the affairs of gods, or something, they should stop that!”)
Oh, yes, Peter graves knows.
Also, a great young adult series about feral cats called the Warriors Series is actually by a team of 3 female authors who go by the name Erin Hunter.
my son loves those books.
For what it is worth, three of the last ten Nobel prize winning literature authors have been women. And four of the last ten fiction Pulitzer prizes have been to women.
the explanation for WHY the world’s gone mad is “Uh…computers! Yeah, that’s it, computers!
Also, HAL is at the door and would like a word with you.
Oh, and you’re entirely correct on Tucker Max. A woman writing about the pursuit of sex, beer and being an asshole to her lovers would be roundly condemned instead of praised. I recommend the blog Hyperbole and a Half instead – written by a woman and utterly hilarious!
“I recommend the blog Hyperbole and a Half instead – written by a woman and utterly hilarious!”
And she’s publishing a book! So she should totally be on that list of must-reads.
Fun fact that’s actually true: It’s now believed that some of F. Scott Fitzgerald’s short stories, mostly the later ones, were written by Zelda. They were both published authors, but F. Scott was the more famous one, obviously, and apparently at some point they figured out they could get more money for stories with F. Scott’s name on them.
And they needed that money for sweet, sweet booze.
For those who have read McMasters Bujold, am I a bad feminist for feeling bad about Sargent Bathori’s death?
“I recommend the blog Hyperbole and a Half instead – written by a woman and utterly hilarious!”
I am glad she only does cartoons occasionally, because it invariably reduces me to helpless teary laughter.
Also, check out the Bloggess for totally warped humor. BUT IGNORE ALL HER ADVICE ON SURVIVING THE ZOMBOCALYPSE.
Clancy? L. Ron Hubbard? Glenn Beck? The guy who wrote the Iron Man books? JOHN GRAY?!?!
Actually, they just appeal to idiots, which is a strategy that will seldom result in an empty bank account, IME.