“No I won’t read your literature … bitch!” and other thoughts on female fiction from the dudes of The Spearhead
This better not be written by some dame!
So Esquire magazine recently posted a list of “The 75 Books Every Man Should Read” on their website. Esquire being Esquire – that is to say, a men’s magazine that had its glory days in the era of Mad Men and that seems to be aimed mostly at old farts (and aspiring old farts) — only one book of the 75 was written by a woman. (That’s 98.67% male, for those of you with lady brains who can’t do the math.)
The internet being the internet, some people noticed that the list was a wee bit heavy on the dudes, even for a men’s magazine, and pointed this out. The bloggers at the Joyland Publishing blog suggested that while the books on Esquire’s list were “mostly fantastic,” it might behoove men to pick up a book or two written by a woman once in a while. And so, with the help of some of their readers, the two assembled a list of “250 Books By Women All Men Should Read.” (Why 250 and not, say, 75? Because they got a lot of suggestions.)
Here’s a little one-question quiz for you all: What title did W. F. Price at The Spearhead give his post on the controversy?
A) “Some Great Suggestions for Books by Women You Guys Might Want to Read.”
B) “Did You Know There Are Female Authors Besides The Chick That Wrote Harry Potter?”
C) “Feminist Publishers: Force Men to Read Women’s Lit”
Yep, the correct answer is C, of course. Apparently a couple of bloggers suggesting some books by women that men “should” read is some kind of Gestapo-like imposition upon men by “Feminist Publishers.” Price grouses:
[I]it strikes me as rather mean-spirited of females in the publishing industry to denounce even ineffectual efforts to introduce men to literature. By all accounts, publishing has come to be dominated by women, and men are reading far fewer books than women these days. Given this state of affairs, you’d think that the women in the industry might be a bit gracious and let the boys pick and choose which titles interest them.
But of course that won’t do, because feminists must find fault with any and everything men are involved in. …
The implication [of the Joyland Publishing blog post] is that men should be forced by political pressure to read female writers (sometimes these feminists come off as whiny, annoying girlfriends complaining that “he just won’t listen to me!”).
Or, you know, it might just be that the writers of the blog post, and those who wrote in with suggestions, really enjoyed the books in question and thought that dudes might just enjoy them too. Sort of like when a friend tells you that you should totally watch the movie Dogtooth, because it is so fascinating and creepy and awesome. Or when I tell you right now that you should go watch Jane Austen’s Fight Club on Funny or Die.
Naturally, the comments from Spearheaders were even more ignorant and obtuse than Price’s post. The basic theme: Bitches can’t write for shit (as far as I know).
In case you think I am offering an unfair characterization of the, er, debate, here’s one Spearheader’s contribution to the discussion:
when a man says “no, I won’t read your literature”, you have to respect that, bitch.
And another’s:
I basically do not read anything a wimminz has written, not even in my favourite genre of science fiction, because every single time I have tried they have been unmitigated fucking crap full of feminazi girl power bullshit and emotional baggage and basically very little hard SF…
And still another’s:
I never read anything written by women unless it happens to be instructional and related to work. Pretty much all the fiction I’ve ever read is by and for males. If I read some non-fiction for fun it’s always got a male author. I realized a while back that my cd collection is about 98% male. When I was a kid I never thought about it, it just came naturally. Now that I’m older I intentionally avoid anything by women.
It’s always,er, instructive to see what some random guy who apparently reads mostly instructional manuals has to say about the literary controversies of the day.
There were, of course, more thoughtful analyses, like this earnest comment from the excitable, exclamation-point-happy David K. Meller:
Women write for an audience of their own level–to wit themselves! Most men are simply too intelligent to be interested in what passes for literature scribbled by women! …
Correct me if I am wrong, but is most woman’s “literature” one more kvetch klatsch of women–or girls–getting together to complain about, to defeat, or to evade the workings of us evil, letcherous, abusive, horrible M-E-N! There is no point in men reading such drivel …
There may be better days coming; when women are once again taught the arts of pleasing men, in their creating a comfortable environment for the chosen man in their lives, and when they again will use their ability to read to discover new and better ways to do this, and their ability to write to communicate these truths to others of their sex! Until that happens, literacy for women, much less dominance in authorship, editing, and publishing has been, and is, a BLOODY MESS for everyone, especially men!!
PEACE AND FREEDOM!!
David K. Meller
Yes, women should really only be allowed to read and write if they are reading or writing instructional manuals on how to cook and give better blow jobs, possibly at the same time.
PEACE AND FREEDOM!! to you too, good sir.
Speaking of which — the blowjob bit, not the PEACE AND FREEDOM!! — the commenter calling himself dragnet suggested that young men such as himself were simply too busy to read much of anything. They have other priorities:
The vast majority of my reading is for work, research, and classes. …
Frankly, I’d rather be getting laid than reading a novel after a grueling work week. The three or four hours I sometimes have free on the weekend when I’m not working or working out or sleeping or eating, I’d rather be out with my friends or getting serviced by whatever girl I’m with at the time.
It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a penis, must be in want of some girl to service it.
PEACE AND FREEDOM!!1!!
Anyway, ladies and manginas, any good lady books you want to suggest for the dudes of the world?
Posted on June 1, 2011, in antifeminism, evil women, I'm totally being sarcastic, idiocy, men who should not ever be with women ever, MGTOW, misogyny, MRA, oppressed men, reactionary bullshit, the spearhead, Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink. 359 Comments.
Ah, well that’s good – The Stand I have not read, but I’m pretty sure I’ve read all of the others.
The Stand
although it also inspired kind of a weak song by The Alarm.
what precisely you mean by ‘genre fiction’,
I have always understood it to mean things like Science Fiction, horror, detective novels, romance…
Now, before you get out the chainsaw, I am perfectly willing to stipulate there are awesome books in all of these categories. Please understand I am describing what I have seen from the serious critics.
My top female characters? I’d have to think about it. I don’t like female characters a lot, because so many of them are really annoying. There are some good ones though. The narrator of To Kill a Mockingbird was very convincing. I’ll be back with a list later.
Bookwise?
I am a fan of the Honor Harrington universe.
Although currently murdering myself by attempting to read the entire Wheel of Time saga by Robert Jordan (Why! this is masochist!)
GRRM is pretty awesome, I’ll agree. I’m really getting into the HBO series (I have a friend who has never read the books, but is following the series, and was shocked and horrified when Ned got stabbed in the leg… I’m waiting for an angry text message from said friend in a few episodes or so). If you like gritty fantasy in that vein, Joe Abercrombie is also a good writer. He’s not up to Martin’s level, but he’s still good.
Martin also wrote another vampire novel, Fevre Dream, which blew my mind by having a happy ending and a fairly low body count of main characters.
Oh, I agree some serious critics have problems with King, I won’t debate that in the least. But I also don’t think that all ‘serious critics’ are the end all and be all of what is good and important. Rodger Ebert, for example, is a ‘serious critic’ for movies, and is way off on a lot of his critiques.
And yes, I would have to fundamentally disagree with the premise that because it isn’t straight fiction, it can’t be important. That, to me, just seems silly and short-sighted.
I’ll agree he is prolific, but I can’t really see that as being a real detriment.
OK, either Nobby is trying to pick a fight with me, or I am doing a SPECTACULARLY poor job of communicating today. Probably the latter.
I don’t see it as a problem either; but I suspect that many serious book critics do.
Oh! Brienne from GRRM’s ASOIAF would be in the top six. She’s a woman who doesn’t get to be an entitled arrogant bitch because she’s not hot, and thus is expected to perform at the level of men. And she does.
I’ll be back with a list later.
I am sure it will be worth the wait.
Okay, I think the problem is I was assuming you hold these opinions as well as simply copying them, so maybe that’s the problem.
And I’m still going to argue against what you say that serious critics say :-p.
I also liked Daenerys from ASOIAF who is a full-on ruler and takes the good with the bad, as opposed to being a slimy bitch who influences things from behind the scenes.
So some of these menz won’t even read non-fiction if a non-penis person wrote it? Oh dear. They are going to miss out on Laura Hillenbrand’s awesome Unbroken.
I think that was actually more than two comments. I should have taken the over, but who could blame me?
I love Barbara Kingsolver. Particularly The Bean Trees. That was hugely transformative book to me when I was growing up! All of you! Go read it!
But what about Catelyn Stark, who was an attractive woman and did precisely what was expected of her as a loyal wife and mother? Or what about Daenerys, who is actually entitled in that she’s the rightful heir to the Iron Throne? Sansa could be said to be arrogant, but another interpretation is just that she’s naive and has never been taught to be self-reliant – she grew up with the assumption that her father was going to take care of her until she got married, and then her husband would take care of her, and she didn’t know how to adapt when it didn’t quite turn out that way. You’re also forgetting Asha Greyjoy, Ygritte, Osha and Meera Reed, some of whom are described as being quite attractive and still kickass.
This blogpost is awesome and hilariously written.
In fact GRRM writes good females in general, who are not moral goddesses and/or superior to men, but flawed and human. I despise The Wheel of Time with every iota of my being for that reason.
Dany and Brienne are my favorites, both probably in my top ten female characters ever, but I also like Asha Greyjoy, Arya, and Sansa.
The problem with Cersei is that she resents being treated differently on account of her gender, but then has no problems seducing the men around her to get what she wants. She also has no sense of perspective or an ability to take the long view on something. Cersei is an awful person, but I think that makes the series better, in that GRRM can have a character that flawed and still give her depth. As much as I hate Cersei, I can nevertheless describe exactly why she’s doing what she’s doing, and her motivations actually aren’t bad. Maybe if her father had taken her seriously and given her a good education when she was younger, rather than just treating her like a marriage pawn, she’d be a better leader now.
MRAL, it surprises me that you’re into Virginia Woolf! She’s a genius and a fantastic writer, but I would definitely describe her as a feminist author. Have you read A Room of One’s Own or Orlando? She’s not beating you over the head with it, but she definitely has clear feminist themes in her work. I’m impressed that you haven’t rejected her entirely for that reason.
MRAL: Brienne is my favorite! I always skip ahead to the Daenerys parts because she’s so fucking badass.
I think that honestly feminist literature is that which portrays women as people. As the saying goes, “not saints, not whores, just women.” :)
To be totally honest, I never completely caught on to Woolf’s feminist themes as I was reading her work. I mean, I knew there was a bit of that, but it never came to dominate the work like a lot of fymynyst shit. Add that to the fact that she’s an excellent author on her own merits, and she lived in a time when society actually WAS patriarchal, and it didn’t bother me at all.
After looking her up it seems the feminist themes are more pervasive than I thought- but since I didn’t feel I was beaten over the head with it, that’s just a testament to her skill. And again, she lived in a time where I think it was OK to be feminist.
Almost forgot to mention, Rebecca Johns has a pretty good historical/creepy novel about Erzebet Bathory called the Countess that is worth checking out. MRAL doesn’t have to bother, because it includes feminist themes and is written from a female character’s point of view.
Also, Friend of Zombie.
Most fymynyst work can be summed up in one word: bitching.
Huh. Usually I find these posts enraging (not because of the commentary, which is excellent, but because of the unbridled crazypants misogyny). This, though, is just sad. How bland would my bookshelf be without my Margaret Atwood, Zadie Smith, Chimamanda Adichie, Joyce Carol Oates, Louise Erdrich, Zoe Heller, Tsitsi Dangarembga, Jamaica Kincaid, Jane Austen, Louise Erdrich, Marjane Satrapi, Kim Barnes–actually, never mind, I couldn’t list them all if I tried.
I guess it would be about as bland as if I threw out all my books by male authors too. No more Raymond Chandler, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Sherman Alexie, J.M. Coetzee, Pete Dexter, Salman Rushdie, Charles Bowden, T.S. Eliot…
Just, wow. Price’s apparent refusal to educate himself in the variety of human experience is so depressing I can’t get that mad at him.
*Gasp*
I LOVE Bathory stories, I’ll have to look up that novel next time I’m in a bookstore!
This is my favorite thread, I love talking about books.
“Most fymynyst work can be summed up in one word: bitching.”
Okay folks, can we stop trying to treat this scrub as some distant member in our book club and more like the whining MRA troll that he is?
Guys like this don’t change, they do not see any lights, no life-changing epiphanies are ever made, MRAL is only content when he’s wallowing in the pathetic pit he dug for himself.
I LOVE Bathory stories, I’ll have to look up that novel next time I’m in a bookstore!
DO IT! Make them order it if you have to.
This is my favorite thread, I love talking about books.
See what happens when you forget to be angry?
the whining MRA troll that he is?
he reminds me of the wingnuts who have to recast ANY book, movie, painting or whatnot that they like as conservative in order to support their rickety worldview.
Fun fact for the haters: I like Susan B. Anthony, because she lived in a time when women actually were disenfranchised. Maybe this gives more insight into my politics.
See what happens when you forget to be angry?
he doesn’t forget, he just seems to sprinkle the word “bitch” in wherever he mentions a woman.
Emphasis on the sprinkle.
Baby steps. Hopefully he’ll learn that talking about things like shared fandoms can lead to fun conversations with women, rather than his insistence that he’s being ‘spat upon’ by all women all the time.
I know right? You can’t like feminist authors and then somehow find a way to justify throwing around the word “bitches” without being an utter piece of garbage.
Fuck you.
I don’t have to justify who I like to anyone, dickhead.
One day, you’ll look back on this time in your life and regret that you wasted so much of your youth being angry at imaginary things.
“Maybe this gives more insight into my politics.”
MRAL you don’t have politics, you just have weird personal vindictive delusions.
And it’s not really hate, nor pity, I think the word that describes how I feel towards yard debris that needs to be dumped out would be the best expression of my feeling.
MRAL it’s not justifying who you like, it’s justifying who you are, which you’ve shown time and time again to be kind of a sad and completely clueless person.
We’ll see, Lady Vic.
@Zombie this is sorta out of left field, especially considering the current topic, but do you have any clue as to what such critics say about ‘Frankenstein’? Because that’s pretty clearly genre fiction. Just wondering.
I’d like to kick the shit out of you, Kobold.
Also Zombie, you seem like a person to ask and everyone in my circle immediate hasn’t picked it up, but do you have an opinion of Mira Grant’s “Feed” is was thinking about picking that up next.
Aaaand there’s my cue to leave!
Yeah MRAL, liking and doing are very different things.
But very quickly, before this devolves into another whine-fest by MRAL, “Feed” is awesome! I posted a bit about it earlier in the comment section, it’s really quite good!
Mr. K, haven’t read it yet, but there was a strong recommendation upthread. On the book list.
I will, however, take this opportunity to re-endorse Ben Tripp’s Rise Again as a great modern zombie novel. Right up there, possibly exceeding, World War Z.
Zombi4
*I instead of is
@MRAL And you say you don’t say violent things, or threaten them. Kinda invalidates that, doesn’t it?
*Zombie
I am just all thumbs today.
ooof. cut off by Lady VVS.
Holy shit, I’ve read Feed!!! That was excellent. Satire is, IMO, the hardest, genre I guess, to do well. It’s so often done badly. You have to get across your message while at the same time seeming to not really get across a message (or it’s just annoying). The best satire is not unlike hypnosis, haha. This was a prime example.
See what happens when you forget to be angry?(Lady Vic)
Sadly it seems Zombie and Mr K. are trying hard to remind him.
MRAL, you realize that kicking the shit out of someone would land you in prison? There are no women there so it should be perfect for you! Why not try to find a way to go there that doesn’t victimize anyone? Set fire to an abandoned barn or something. Next thing you know you get sent off to the Place Of No Women and everything would be just perfect.
I never said I would, only that I’d like to.
@T4T Well, MRAL was trying hard to get us to say something, what with all the ‘Wymmymyn’ and ‘Fynynists are bitches’ etc talk. I’m surprised no one spoke up sooner.
@Nobby, not sure, because like you I don’t pay too much attention to the critics either.
However, I think the story about the original publishing gives a clue; at first, it was thought to be not possible for a women to have written it, at first, because women were thought to be incapable of writing, then because of the subject matter.
I suspect that it is currently thought to be allowed due to age, so it is grandfathered in as literature, before skiffy and horror emerged as genres.
Nobby
Yeah I know, I have that conversation with my kids all the time. “But dad, he kept bugging me”
I adore Stephen King but all of my favorite of his stuff is older. Carrie, Christine, The Stand, The Tommyknockers, Salem’s Lot, It, Firestarter, Pet Semetary. His newer stuff, well, some if it is good but some of it is just awful. I didn’t think much of Cell or From a Buick 8. The most feminist thing I read of his (in that it was about a woman taking revenge on her abusive husband) was Rose Madder and I really didn’t like that.
Sadly it seems Zombie and Mr K. are trying hard to remind him.
yeah, guilty as charged. Sorry. I will step off and let Lady VVS and others continue trying to engage.
Really because I love WWZ just because of how it took us outside of the American “cowboy-up” perspective on zombies. Instead showing us how events or responses in other nations would be unique, just like ‘Calcutta: Lord of Nerves” by Poppy Z. Brite’s in the anthology “The Living Dead”
Or, if you want to look outside of zombie fiction, “Metro 2033″
@T4T Well, Kobold did nothing but respond in kind. If MRAL had simply stuck to talking about books and not waxing on about the ‘horrible wymyns’ ‘forcing’ him to read ‘fymynist’ books no one would care, and we’d still be having a perfectly reasonable conversation.
Plugging for GRRM, you guys know that the fifth ASOIAF novel is finally done? GRRM ran into some writer’s block but after five years, it’s going to be published in July! I’ve been looking forward to this for years. He’s doing a book tour next month and I’m going to meet him when he stops in Boston. This old fat guy is one of my heroes.
Neither Zombie nor Mr. K are responsible for MRAL’s internal anger problem. Don’t let MRAL off the hook by blaming others when he lashes out, which he would do anyway regardless of what anyone else says or does.
I agree with Plymouth Re: Stephen King, but I enjoyed Rose Madder. I stopped reading fiction a long time ago, though – the last female-written fiction books I couldn’t live without were Gone With the Wind and The Thorn Birds.
@Plymouth, I kind of agree about King’s more recent stuff, but I kind of get the impression that he is trying to move beyond the box he has built for himself, work out of his comfort zone. I quite liked Blaze, not supernatural at all.
But I liked From A Buick 6 and Under the Dome also. And the flipped universes in The Regulators and Desperation was interesting, while I found Duma Key to be really good.
I’ve been enjoying the Game of Thrones series on HBO recently. I keep having to ask my fiance to explain who the characters are though – without having read the books it’s hard to keep track of them all. I think when the season ends I’ll read the book and see what I missed.
Desparation I thought was OK, not great. I actually have a copy of Duma Key that I haven’t gotten around to reading yet. So I certainly haven’t given up on him!
I thought From a Buick 8 was meh. It was too slow and there wasn’t enough of a sense of danger. Having the bulk of the story be a flashback was a mistake.
Under the Dome, also, I thought could have used an editor. The ending was weak too. I still liked it, but not a lot.
Also, note that the iBook store has Frankenstein in their free section, for the iPad enabled.