“No I won’t read your literature … bitch!” and other thoughts on female fiction from the dudes of The Spearhead
This better not be written by some dame!
So Esquire magazine recently posted a list of “The 75 Books Every Man Should Read” on their website. Esquire being Esquire – that is to say, a men’s magazine that had its glory days in the era of Mad Men and that seems to be aimed mostly at old farts (and aspiring old farts) — only one book of the 75 was written by a woman. (That’s 98.67% male, for those of you with lady brains who can’t do the math.)
The internet being the internet, some people noticed that the list was a wee bit heavy on the dudes, even for a men’s magazine, and pointed this out. The bloggers at the Joyland Publishing blog suggested that while the books on Esquire’s list were “mostly fantastic,” it might behoove men to pick up a book or two written by a woman once in a while. And so, with the help of some of their readers, the two assembled a list of “250 Books By Women All Men Should Read.” (Why 250 and not, say, 75? Because they got a lot of suggestions.)
Here’s a little one-question quiz for you all: What title did W. F. Price at The Spearhead give his post on the controversy?
A) “Some Great Suggestions for Books by Women You Guys Might Want to Read.”
B) “Did You Know There Are Female Authors Besides The Chick That Wrote Harry Potter?”
C) “Feminist Publishers: Force Men to Read Women’s Lit”
Yep, the correct answer is C, of course. Apparently a couple of bloggers suggesting some books by women that men “should” read is some kind of Gestapo-like imposition upon men by “Feminist Publishers.” Price grouses:
[I]it strikes me as rather mean-spirited of females in the publishing industry to denounce even ineffectual efforts to introduce men to literature. By all accounts, publishing has come to be dominated by women, and men are reading far fewer books than women these days. Given this state of affairs, you’d think that the women in the industry might be a bit gracious and let the boys pick and choose which titles interest them.
But of course that won’t do, because feminists must find fault with any and everything men are involved in. …
The implication [of the Joyland Publishing blog post] is that men should be forced by political pressure to read female writers (sometimes these feminists come off as whiny, annoying girlfriends complaining that “he just won’t listen to me!”).
Or, you know, it might just be that the writers of the blog post, and those who wrote in with suggestions, really enjoyed the books in question and thought that dudes might just enjoy them too. Sort of like when a friend tells you that you should totally watch the movie Dogtooth, because it is so fascinating and creepy and awesome. Or when I tell you right now that you should go watch Jane Austen’s Fight Club on Funny or Die.
Naturally, the comments from Spearheaders were even more ignorant and obtuse than Price’s post. The basic theme: Bitches can’t write for shit (as far as I know).
In case you think I am offering an unfair characterization of the, er, debate, here’s one Spearheader’s contribution to the discussion:
when a man says “no, I won’t read your literature”, you have to respect that, bitch.
And another’s:
I basically do not read anything a wimminz has written, not even in my favourite genre of science fiction, because every single time I have tried they have been unmitigated fucking crap full of feminazi girl power bullshit and emotional baggage and basically very little hard SF…
And still another’s:
I never read anything written by women unless it happens to be instructional and related to work. Pretty much all the fiction I’ve ever read is by and for males. If I read some non-fiction for fun it’s always got a male author. I realized a while back that my cd collection is about 98% male. When I was a kid I never thought about it, it just came naturally. Now that I’m older I intentionally avoid anything by women.
It’s always,er, instructive to see what some random guy who apparently reads mostly instructional manuals has to say about the literary controversies of the day.
There were, of course, more thoughtful analyses, like this earnest comment from the excitable, exclamation-point-happy David K. Meller:
Women write for an audience of their own level–to wit themselves! Most men are simply too intelligent to be interested in what passes for literature scribbled by women! …
Correct me if I am wrong, but is most woman’s “literature” one more kvetch klatsch of women–or girls–getting together to complain about, to defeat, or to evade the workings of us evil, letcherous, abusive, horrible M-E-N! There is no point in men reading such drivel …
There may be better days coming; when women are once again taught the arts of pleasing men, in their creating a comfortable environment for the chosen man in their lives, and when they again will use their ability to read to discover new and better ways to do this, and their ability to write to communicate these truths to others of their sex! Until that happens, literacy for women, much less dominance in authorship, editing, and publishing has been, and is, a BLOODY MESS for everyone, especially men!!
PEACE AND FREEDOM!!
David K. Meller
Yes, women should really only be allowed to read and write if they are reading or writing instructional manuals on how to cook and give better blow jobs, possibly at the same time.
PEACE AND FREEDOM!! to you too, good sir.
Speaking of which — the blowjob bit, not the PEACE AND FREEDOM!! — the commenter calling himself dragnet suggested that young men such as himself were simply too busy to read much of anything. They have other priorities:
The vast majority of my reading is for work, research, and classes. …
Frankly, I’d rather be getting laid than reading a novel after a grueling work week. The three or four hours I sometimes have free on the weekend when I’m not working or working out or sleeping or eating, I’d rather be out with my friends or getting serviced by whatever girl I’m with at the time.
It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a penis, must be in want of some girl to service it.
PEACE AND FREEDOM!!1!!
Anyway, ladies and manginas, any good lady books you want to suggest for the dudes of the world?
Posted on June 1, 2011, in antifeminism, evil women, I'm totally being sarcastic, idiocy, men who should not ever be with women ever, MGTOW, misogyny, MRA, oppressed men, reactionary bullshit, the spearhead, Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink. 359 Comments.
To continue de-lurking-
I’m a big proponent of Lady-written sci-fi/fantasy, and personal favorites of mine (author-wise) are:
Ursula K. LeGuin, Madeleine L’Engle, CJ Cherryh, Anne McCaffrey, Mercedes Lackey (especially Tarma and Kethry), and Patricia Wrede.
And then there’s a whole slew of excellent female poets.
Seconds to Le Guin and McCaffrey, two of my favorite authors.
Also Mary Shelly is generally considered pretty good in that field :-p. I wonder how many MRAs have enjoyed Frankenstein and Frankenstein spin-offs and somehow not realized who the author/originator was.
I’m currently reading the very funny Bossypants by the very funny Tina Fey.
Of course it’s a vicious circle. We’d have to convince the dudes that women can be and are funny, but we’d have to have them read a book like this to show that women can be and are funny, but to get them to read it we’d have to convince them that women can be and are funny, but we’d have to have them read a book like this…
Clearly, allowing women to read and write is where everything went wrong.
My book tastes lean heavily on the sci-fi and the pop science. Sci-fi is where I find more female authors. Currently I’m reading–err, listening to, rather–Lois McMaster Bujold’s enormously entertaining Miles Vorkosigan series.
Nobby, according to the commenters at Spearhead, the heart of the book was written by Mary’s husband, Percy. Of course, no link…
What, no Marion Zimmer Bradley?
@Lauging gull …Wow, really? I have no words.
Of course, the real story is more interesting. Apparently it was originally published anonymously, and when people started attributing it to Percy Mary spoke up and said “Hey, actually, that was totally me”. Of course, I can see how MRAs would somehow spin that to Mary ‘stealing’ it from him.
There may be better days coming; when women are once again taught the arts of pleasing men, in their creating a comfortable environment for the chosen man in their lives, and when they again will use their ability to read to discover new and better ways to do this, and their ability to write to communicate these truths to others of their sex!
Once again, here is proof that, for the MRAs, oppression is having to make your own sandwich.
The guy I am dating, whom I shall call 13 officially, introduced me to Ms McMaster Bujold so it is nice to hear someone else enjoying her series Sally.
Very few male writers can effectively write a female character in sci-fi or regular books for that matter. David Weber is one as is Terry Pratchett. I would have to say I am not convinced that S.M. Stirling can and I definitely do not think David Eddings (or his wife Leigh) can.
I find it funny that these men think “should” on a blog automatically means “you shall by law.”
Oh and do they not like Harper Lee’s To Kill A Mockingbird?
I will read books by women if they’re good, my favorite female authors include Toni Morrison, Doris Lessing, Lorraine Hansberry, Le Guin, and Virginia Woolf. They are held to the same standard as male writers, my favorites of whom include George RR Martin, Vladimir Nabokov, Henrik Ibsen, Steven Erikson, and Stephen King.
What I will not do is be pressured into reading inferior books by wymyn authors (distinct from women authors) to be politically correct. Nor will I consider a list full of said wymyn authors.
*throws My Antonia at MRAL for no other reason then she can*
uh oops
Despite the fact that it was only a result of a list full of men authors? Interesting.
Also, there was no pressure here. That is, in fact, mostly the point of this post. It’s a suggestion list. Jeeze.
What I will not do is be pressured into reading inferior books by wymyn authors (distinct from women authors) to be politically correct. Nor will I consider a list full of said wymyn authors.
Such a load of crap. Who is pressuring you? Precisely no one.
What’s a wymyn author? A thing you made up that you think sounds witty and snide but is really very stupid.
What is political correctness? It’s a fancy way of saying “Try not to be an insensitive asshole.” Only insensitive assholes have a real problem with it.
Where is this list of wymyn authors? There’s no such thing. Something you made up again.
I accept and understand that some people prefer fantasy worlds to reality, like MRAL. What’s baffling is when some people, again like MRAL, choose to make their fantasy worlds so bitterly depressing.
Very few male writers can effectively write a female character in sci-fi
One of the irregulars at Sadly, No recently published a zombie novel recently, in which most of the lead characters are women, and I though they were quite well done.
Rise Again, by Ben Tripp, if anyone wants to check it out. No, I AM NOT BIASED because of the subject matter! Stop saying that!
“Wymyn author” is a term I use for female authors who would not get the attention they get if they were male. “Women authors”, like Virginia Woolf, get the attention they get because they write good books.
Okay, MRAL. Sarah Palin. I’ll give you that one.
“Wymyn author” is a term I use for female authors who would not get the attention they get if they were male. “Women authors”, like Virginia Woolf, get the attention they get because they write good books.
Why bother? Seems like an awful waste of time. To be realistic, you would have to read a whole shitload of books you don’t like.
However, here is another list that we might compile: “Male authors who wouldn’t get the attention if they weren’t male”
Soo… it’s authors you don’t like? You know, you could just say “I don’t read books I don’t like” and cut out the offensive crap. But I suppose we wouldn’t know it was you if you didn’t get to throw “wymynynyny” in your response somewhere.
Although, laughing gull, to be fair we must also admit that Sarah Palin hasn’t really written ANY books yet.
I’ve never heard of My Antonia, is there any feminist shit in it? If not I’ll read it.
It is okay Zombie, we understand.
I forgot, A Lee Martinez does a good job usually. And I am not just saying that because I am friends with him on Facebook.
zombie: There are none. Well, maybe some war writers like Tim O’Brien, in the sense that they wouldn’t have that experience if they were female.
My Antonia is even awesomer because it is FREE to read.
This is a good book too. And also free!
“What I will not do is be pressured into reading inferior books by wymyn authors (distinct from women authors) to be politically correct. Nor will I consider a list full of said wymyn authors.”
How do you know those books are inferior if you didn’t actually read them?
And if you are being ‘pressured’ to read those 250 books by women authors, are you not being equally ‘pressured’ to read those 74 titles by men?
I would say Catcher in the Rye is a book that only got attention because the author was male. That protagonist was a jerk.
@zombie
Or how about this list: “Women authors who wouldn’t get as much attention if people didn’t think they were male.”
Ahhh. A fan of that hard science fiction Gorean saga by John Norman no doubt – full of scantily clad female sex slaves and manly men.
LOL
Fun fact: Truman Capote wrote To Kill a Mockingbird.
MRAL, that is a supremely intelligent term to use, just like everything else you say.
In other news I’ve always been curious about Spearhead commenters reading habits especially given that so many of them are into Scifi, a genre that isn’t really known for catering to reactionary pricks.
I mean, short old 70s pulp novels depicting bare-chested techno-barbarians fighting dinosaur women, what can they read in the genre from even male authors?
Cause I can’t picture them picking up stuff like China Mieville’s “The Scar” without throwing it away with a shrill yelp when they find out the main character is female. I mean, if MRAs (a false statement I know cause they honestly aren’t very active) where to pick up something like “Hyperion” would they skip over Brawne Lamia’s narration segment in it cause she’s a female detective?
I think io9 back in 2009 did a segment about Spearhead whining about the “feminization” of scifi, and author John Scalzi had the best ever response to it:
“What? An insecure male nerd threatened by the idea that women exist for reasons other than the dispensing of sandwiches and topical applications of boobilies, mewling on the Internet about how girls are icky? That’s unpossible!”
Fun Fact: William Shakespeare was actually a woman.
Oh, wait, was that supposed to be ‘fact’ or ‘unsubstantiated rumor’?
“Male authors who wouldn’t get the attention if they weren’t male.” Wasn’t that the whole kerfuffle over Jonathan Franzen – that similarly-talented female authors writing about love, identity and families are relegated to the chick-lit ghetto, while Franzen’s are “masterpiece[s] of American fiction”?
MRAL, do you believe everything those MRAs tell you?
I read the first chapter of The Awakening, that was pretty bad IMO.
Fascinating. MRAL seems to find it near impossible to post a comment without getting all MRALish. The first paragraph in his first comment in this thread was entirely reasonable and he could have left it at that. But for some reason he felt compelled to add the second paragraph and it all went downhill from there.
I’ve never heard of My Antonia, is there any feminist shit in it?
This, right after the idiot lists a bunch of women authors with “feminist shit.”
zombie: There are none.
Yeah. Sure. Consider that an adequate response to your list also then.
Fun fact: No, he did not.
Oh, Jonathan Franzen, from my limited exposure, writes good novels (not my cup of tea, but YMMV and he is clearly a master). Most (all) “chick lit” writers are shit, which is, shockingly, why they do not receive the attention Franzen gets.
I <3 Scalzi.
MRAL, we have really similar taste in books. Although I do find it highly amusing that four of the five female authors you list are feminist, and I don't recognize the fifth so she might be. :)
How is Steven Erikson, btw? I keep considering reading him, but it's a lot of time commitment to start a new series, you know?
I really enjoy Lilith Saintcrow’s novels – she writes some fairly good urban fantasy. Poppy Z. Brite, who I mentioned before, writes some amazingly awesome vampire novels (though is currently taking a break from writing).
Allison Weir has written some pretty good biographies of the English crown, especially Henry VIII and Elizabeth I. Currently, I’m working my way through some Robin Hobb.
Scott Lynch is a dude, but he manages to write some pretty cool female characters in Red Skies Over Red Seas. Seanan McGuire is also another urban fantasy writer I enjoy, and has written a book entitled ‘Feed’ under the name Mira Grant, which is a fantastic novel set 20 years after the zombie apocalypse. C.S. Friedman is also one of the best fantasy writers I’ve read in a long time.
Sarah Dunant writes good historical fiction, so does Ann Bannon. I also really recommend ‘Escape’ by Carolyn Jessop – its a memoir of a woman who grew up on the fundamentalist Mormon compound in Colorado City, got married to an abusive asshole, had eight children (one with severe medical problems), and managed to escape and start a new life with them.
They are held to the same standard as male writers…(such as) Stephen King.
lulzzors. Look, I like Stephen King’s novels as much as anyone, but ‘standards’? I don’t delude myself that they are literature or must-reads.
Mr. Meller seems to have taken a page from the Upton Sinclair!! manual on writing!!! Without the social justice! aspects!!
written a book entitled ‘Feed’ under the name Mira Grant, which is a fantastic novel set 20 years after the zombie apocalypse
OK, color me interested.
Also, Stephen King is an SF/horror writer who writes good female characters, and he’s JUST a little prolific. So I don’t think it’s that rare.
Fun fact: I’ve met Stephen King on multiple occasions (his wife owns a bookstore I frequented before it closed) and he is the coolest guy ever.
Perhaps it is less fun, but it is never the less a fact;
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5244492
@Zombie Hey now, just because you may not like them doesn’t mean they’re not good. He’s won a shit-ton of award for a reason.
Sorry, PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth, I did not see that you had already posted the same link while I was getting my html right.
Or how about this list: “Women authors who wouldn’t get as much attention if people didn’t think they were male.”
That’s unpossible, because misandry! And wymynynynyns! Also, your arguement is invalid!
Nobby, I SAID I liked them. Hell, I am re-reading The Stand currently.
I would, however, like to hear from some of the women who hang out here whether King’s female characters are ‘realistic’.
Stephen King is a very good writer who is snubbed by stuffy literary retards because the material is “mainstream”. His best books are, or will be, classics.
Also, Stephen King is an SF/horror writer who writes good female characters, and he’s JUST a little prolific. So I don’t think it’s that rare.
ummm, regardless of the number of books he’s published, it’s still only one data point, so it doesn’t disprove the rarity.
No worries Fatman.
And honestly, most of what Stephen King is crap that sounds good. At least that is the best way to describe it. There are exceptions: Bag of Bones was amazing.
KING’S BEST BOOKS/SHORT STORIES
– The Shining (this was adapted into a movie by Stanley Kubrick, best film director of all time)
– The Stand
– Rita Heyworth and Shawshank Redemption (adapted into one of the best movies of all time)
– Stand By Me
– Misery
– The Long Walk
He is good, people.
Currently, the Vegas over/under on MRAL making a repulsive degrading personal insult in a given number of comments is 1.5. I am taking the under.
Well, you also said they weren’t literature, and many would disagree with you. Those being the Hugo Award, Locus Award, University of Maine, National Book Foundation, O. Henry Award, and a decent few others.
Sorry for that misunderstanding, though.
Stand By Me was actually a short story called The Body.
Bag of Bones also had some pretty strong feminist undertones, in my view. Also, some pretty harsh misogynistic scenes.
Actually, now that I think of it, most of King’s work is pretty strongly feminist. Although until someone tells me differently, I kind of suspect his female characters are always less than realistic.
Well, you also said they weren’t literature, and many would disagree with you.
well, zombie opinions are mine own. I still like most of his books though.
OK, color me interested.
It’s really good! The good news is that no one gets cancer or the common cold anymore, because of engineered viruses. The bad news is that these viruses combined to form the Zombie Virus. George, Georgia, Georgette and Barbara are very popular names, thanks to George Romero, who taught people how to survive the zombie apocalypse through his movies. The main character and her brother are fairly popular bloggers, as bloggers have replaced a lot of the functions of the mainstream news media (most people lost faith in the MSM when news reports always insisted that outbreaks were pranks or isolated incidents; only the bloggers were the ones talking about ‘WTF? ZOMBIES!’). It’s a pretty good analysis of what life would be like in the generation after the first zombie apocalypse, when zombies are just a way of life now.
Her other series, the October Daye novels, are also pretty good. The main character is a changeling private investigator, which is probably no sillier than a wizard detective.
ozymandias, it seems like a lot of people aren’t super keen on Erikson (kind of like King) but personally I find his scope kind of amazing. His ideas and his ability to tie together such huge events are similar to GRRM’s ASOIAF, although I think GRRM is a better writer in terms of prose.
In fact, let me suck GRRM’s dick even more. Best fantasy writer EVER, unquestionably better than Tolkien. His books are frankly amazing and his prose is at the level of the greats. A Storm of Swords is among the best novels I’ve ever read, and I’ve read a lot.
Okay, so female characters in MRAL’s top six? The wife in The Shining and the crazy lady in Misery? Surely I’m missing some – I know there aren’t any in The Body, but I haven’t read most of those in over 20 years.
Right right right, it was called The Body originally. The MOVIE was Stand By Me. I forgot. It’s been a long time.
Also, leaving out all of the Gunslinger? That’s just criminal.
Well, you also said they weren’t literature,
Whether I agree or not, I have sometimes thought that “serious” critics main problem with King is that “serious” authors take much longer to write, agonizing over each word, each syllable, and thus that an author who doesn’t do that cannot be serious.
Also, genre fiction can NOT be serious.
Stand by Me is a movie based on the short story The Body.
MRAL are you the grocery-store literature version of those guys I’ve met at shitty jobs who, instead of reading the Bible, watch Bibleman videos instead?
taught people how to survive the zombie apocalypse
we’ve never really forgiven him for that, you know.
Okay, so female characters in MRAL’s top six?
The Stand is filled with female characters, including the “Good” avatar, Mother Abigail.
I’ll agree he is prolific, but I can’t really see that as being a real detriment. It’s like saying that Da Vinci wasn’t good because they he so much art.
Also, you’ll have to explain what precisely you mean by ‘genre fiction’, definitions I know are way to lax for sweeping statements like that.
Also, editing fail ‘because he made so much’.
Still horrible grammatically, but whatever.