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>I’m going off the rails on an [ableist slur redacted] train. Also: Cat poll!

>

Well, discussions about my second Scott Adams piece over on Feministe (which was basically identical to my post here) have now been completely derailed by a number of commenters who’ve decided I’m “ableist” because I used the word … “idiot.”  That word, they have decided, is offensive to the “cognitively impaired.” If you want to wade into the mess, here’s the comment that, while polite in itself, started the long slide down this particular rabbit hole. You can see my responses in blue further down in the comments.
I consider this kind of language policing to the EXTREME! to be bad for feminism (and frankly insulting to people with disabilities), and I’m glad a number of others have stood up against it in the comments there.  I don’t think that the language police are in the majority at Feministe, much less in feminism at large. But these debates are so frustrating that many feminists who disagree with the language police end up biting their tongues and/or just walking away. At some point I may post more about this fraught topic here.
In the meantime, I’m am conducting a little poll about cats. Please click the appropriate button in the graphic above. Clicking it won’t actually do anything, but I’m pretty sure what the results are going to be anyway. Go kitties!
— 
If you enjoyed this post, would you kindly* use the “Share This” or one of the other buttons below to share it on Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, or wherever else you want. I appreciate it. 
*Yes, that was a Bioshock reference.
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briget
9 years ago

>kave, as has already been explained the panic attack was over the term butthurt. Butthurt reminded that particular poster of anal rape and she had a triggered episode. She also went on to explain that the reason that when she is at feministe she isn't prepared to deal with that bullshit. She prepares herself to go out into the rest of the world. That was her problem. You need to be a bit more sensitive to the trauma that rape victims go through here.

Kave
9 years ago

>Ginmar I can't believe an MRA just compared whiny rich white assholes to the Holocaust. Jesus wept, get over your little stubbed toe.People in the mra feed my brothers delusions enough that he tried to kill my niece. I've spent 10 years following him on mra blogs, I'd rather my time was spent elsewhere. You called me a mra, and a whiny rich asshole. Why?

Pam
Pam
9 years ago

>LOL@ pull a NickWhich is making me wonder what happened to our other good friend, Richard (AKA Random Brother). I am missing the lulz he gave us!!

Kave
9 years ago

>kave, as has already been explained the panic attack was over the term butthurt. Butthurt reminded that particular poster of anal rape and she had a triggered episode. She also went on to explain that the reason that when she is at feministe she isn't prepared to deal with that bullshit. She prepares herself to go out into the rest of the world. That was her problem. You need to be a bit more sensitive to the trauma that rape victims go through here.I've never heard the term buthurt before.. Perhaps Ginmar should be a little more sensitive about calling me a whiny rich asshole? No I do not need to be a little more sensitive, not does Ginmar.

ginmar
9 years ago

>YOu whined about how you were rich, blah blah blah and how you'd love to change places with the middle class. Then you coyly referenced people getting their property confiscated in'Eastern Europe'. YOu really want to change places with the middle class? Well, here's your big fuckin' chance. Email me and hand over the check book. You can switch places wtih me, see how that goes.

Kave
9 years ago

>ginmarWhy do you feel the need to misquote me?Why is it ok in your mind to call me a whiny rich white asshole?

Kave
9 years ago

>But it's not ok to use the word idiot.

Pam
Pam
9 years ago

>Funny how envy works. There were a lot of people just like my family in the early 1940's in Europe. People perceived them as having more then they did. We all know what happened.That same type of motivation also spurred on a lot of the accusations during the periods of witch hunts and witch trials.

victor
9 years ago

>When I posted the comment about how Kave "just became an irrelevant non-person" I really thought I was using hyperbole, but apparently not. The response was, basically, "yea, so what?". I swear, with this and the feministe comments about 'idiocy', you can't even make a parody of this style of thinking because it already is one. This is part of what the MRN is reacting against.Sure, you can cherry-pick the most absurd, offensive, egregious comments from dozens of sites and paint a pretty dark picture, but I could do this with feminist sites as well. And I don't even mind it, I regularly get a good laugh from this site, I'm glad it is here – helps to keep a sense of humor about things and to temper the tendency to extremist thinking. A lot of the guys over at the MRM sites are damaged, hurt people who have been totally screwed over – they are venting their anger and pain in what they think is a safe space to do so, and some get carried away and do it in unproductive/offensive ways. Again, I'm pretty sure you can see the same thing on many feminist sites. My guess is that if they weren't men, the same people who attack them and mock them would be sympathetic and outraged on their behalf.I'm glad commentators here feel confident enough in their opinions to pretty much openly say that injustice, if it happens to a man because he is a man, is ok, apparently we deserve it. Thank you for your honesty. But this is exactly why an MRN is necessary.

David Futrelle
9 years ago

>Belated thanks to Johnny Pez for doing the chronological "evil feminist possibly made-up quote" list. Kave, your arguments would have been a lot more persuasie if you left the Holocaust out of it.On the issue of whether "protecting" people from nasty bigoted language is patronizing and ineffective (because in the real world they're going to run into it anyway), I would like to say, it really isn't quite that simple. There is a certain logic to making some spaces "safe spaceds," or at least relatively safe spaces, to give the people in them some respite from the sort of abuse they might run into in the real world. I do very little moderation of comments here, but I will delete those in which people use really nasty slurs directed at other commenters. Yeah, people do run into that shit in the real world, but, you know, there's no reason to let these sorts of bullies run wild in the comments here.But as the Feministe discussion shows, trying to make a space completely "safe" is really quite tricky indeed, and can lead to endless derailed discussions over what words might possibly offend someone. It can also lead to manipulative bullying on the part of the people who are ostensibly trying to keep the space safe. Given that the type of misogynistic stuff I write about and quote from on this blog is already going to be "triggering" to some people, there doesn't seem to be much reason to keep all of that sort of stuff out of the comments. In order to promote some kind of real discussion I leave the comments open to people who are misogynists and/or assholes, and so they're going to sometimes say misogynistic and/or assholish things. (And yes, people on "my side" here are also free to say assholish things, and they sometimes do.) Unfortunately, that means that some people who do get "triggered" by this kind of stuff aren't going to feel comfortable here. And that does trouble me, but there is simply no way to arrive at a solution that works for everyone. Leave things open, and people will have their feelings hurt (and that is a real problem; I don't want to dismiss that). Crack down and people feel they can't really express themselves freely (and that's a problem too). Though the discussion on Feministe infuriated me at times, it has made me think a bit about my reflexive use of some language (like "crazy") that might be unnecessarily hurtful to some people. I'm not giving up the term "idiot," and I'm not going to ban "crazy" here either, but, I dunno, the word "obtuse" is a pretty good word. Maybe I'll start using it a lot more often than some words I've used in the past.

Elizabeth
9 years ago

>Victor-we have asked again and again and again for the same kind of commentary to be shown to us that reflect what the MRAs routinely post on their blogs and websites. To date zero has been posted.And no one has said they affirmatively support injustice. Ignoring your comments is not saying they support injustice-nor have you paid attention to someone defending that so called "irrelevant non-person." Ginmar-Kave is not an MRA. He has personal reasons for having to deal with those people over the years and thanks to his family's wealth he has been able to protect some of his relatives from the type of crap that MRAs can cause to happen.

ginmar
9 years ago

>Um, Kave, I quoted you word for word.

victor
9 years ago

>"And no one has said they affirmatively support injustice."No, they didn't affirmatively support it, they just implied that it was deserved."we have asked again and again and again for the same kind of commentary to be shown to us that reflect what the MRAs routinely post on their blogs and websites."I don't understand what you are saying here – for real, would you restate?

Pam
Pam
9 years ago

>I dunno about anyone else, but I enjoy reading Kave's comments and have ever since I first read his comments at Spearhead, where he didn't pull any punches calling them on their bullshit. And I am glad that he discovered and joined our "community" here, as he calls the non-feminists who post here on their bullshit, too. But because he's doing so in a feminist space, does that mean that he has to turn hypocrite and not call self-proclaimed feminists, myself included, on their bullshit when he thinks they're pulling it?ginmar, you posted in the comments on another article here, "It's not the language issue at Feministe that's the problem: it's that they assume bad faith from allies". I agree. But how do we know who our allies are? Are they only our allies if not wealthy, not white or not male or not any combination of the three?

Lady Victoria von Syrus

>Kave is not the enemy here. Summing up someone's post as 'blah blah blah' is not quoting them word for word. The Holocaust reference was probably an unnecessary manifestation of Godwin's Law, but he's not the enemy just because he's wealthy. If anything, I remember Kave writing about how his wife's homeless shelter project directly helped more men than the entirety of men 'helped' by the MRM.

Elizabeth
9 years ago

>Victor-MRA peeps come on here, claim that feminists say the same kind of thing about men that David posts that MRAs say about women and then never provide examples despite being asked to do so. Sally pointed out that you should think of the fact that women have had to put up with being thought of an "irrelevant nonperson" for centuries. That does not mean she supports making Kave into such a thing-it means "think about this. Now you see what we are talking about?" Ginmar, well that one I addressed him or her directly.Clearer now?

David Futrelle
9 years ago

>victor, MRAS here and elsewhere have said it's unfair to focus on hateful posts and comments from MRAs, because feminist blogs are similarly filled with hateful comments against men. And so I and others here have asked some of the MRAs who have said that here to provide some examples from feminist blogs — say, for example, some of those in my sidebar here. And the MRAs have never been able to provide any examples (except for one 4-year-old post on Jezebel which was admittedly pretty awful).But I challenge anyone to look at any of feminist blogs in my sidebar — lets say over the past six months — and show me examples of hateful anti-male speech similar to the hateful anti-female speech I find so often and so easily on the biggest and most popular MRM/MGTOW websites.

Pam
Pam
9 years ago

>Shit, I called this blog a feminist space when its not my privilege to call it anything as I'm not the "owner" of the blog. Please accept my apologies.

David Futrelle
9 years ago

>Also, I second these comments about Kave. Yeah, the Holocaust comparison was a bit much, but Kave =/= bad guy.

Elizabeth
9 years ago

>It did let me make a Monty Python reference so it was not all bad David and Lady V.We need more Monty in our lives.

Kave
9 years ago

>DavidNot at all, one of the main reasons why Jews were so easily targeted in the 1930's within the depression was because they were considered to be the bankers. We forget that the Germans were in a state of panic to the point of food shortages and even starvation when the Nazi's came in to give them something to blame for their plight. People like to have someone else to blame, I hope I didn't come off as whining. (I'm being sarcastic) The point I was trying to make was two point. One: Everyone can claim victim status if they try hard enough. Two It's not a contest. Or at least it shouldn't be.

Pam
Pam
9 years ago

>We need more Monty in our lives.AND more POPCORN!!!

David Futrelle
9 years ago

>Pam, no problem. I'm not sure what kind of place this place is, actually.

Elizabeth
9 years ago

>BACON flavored popcorn!!!And David-it is obviously a bacon flavored popcorn Monty Python repository.

Lady Victoria von Syrus

>And if I can interject a bit into the 'Finding Hateful Feminist Quotes on Blogs' project by re-quoting victor:"A lot of the [women] over at the [feminist] sites are damaged, hurt people who have been totally screwed over – they are venting their anger and pain in what they think is a safe space to do so, and some get carried away and do it in unproductive/offensive ways."So if you can excuse misogyny with the justification that these men are hurt and lashing out, then you have to also accept that a woman who makes a comment disparaging men may also be hurt and lashing out, and give her the same leeway you give the misogynists in the MRM.

Pam
Pam
9 years ago

>BACON flavored popcorn!!!YES!!!!! Wait……do they have such a thing?? If not, they SHOULD!!

Elizabeth
9 years ago

>It is really expensive apparently but yes Virginia, I mean Pam they have Bacon Flavored Popcorn.

Lady Victoria von Syrus

>@ Pam:They have bacon salt, so you could always salt your popcorn with that! http://www.baconsalt.com/

Kave
9 years ago

>I should say again that this blog has been a blessing for me. I've had ten plus years of having to read through comments that literally made me sick sometimes, sometimes I would laugh, and sometimes I just had to bite back.Finally people are laughing with me. It feels great. Please don't make this a "safe space".

Pam
Pam
9 years ago

>Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm….. thanx, guys, for the recommendations!! LOVE bacon!!

David Futrelle
9 years ago

>Kave, I understand your broader point about victimhood but I think you're grossly oversimplfying German history here. On the "everyone can be a victim" issue, yes, oppression is a very complicated thing, and people who are privileged in some arenas are victims in other areas. And I do find pissing contests over who is the most victimized to be generally counterproductive. But I do think we can say that in rough general ways certain people ARE more victimized than others; we sort of have to make this judgement in order to understand the world. Yes, we are all human, and the death of someone close to us is going to hurt us tremendously even if we have lots of money. Yes, men have various issues they face because they are men. But women have more issues to deal with than men. The poor have more issues to deal with than the rich. So do racial minorities. That's not to say that, say, rich white men have no problems, or that they are somehow immune to problems that face all human beings (physical disabilities, mental illness, you name it). But we can't ignore the privileges that rich white men have either.

Pam
Pam
9 years ago

>Pam, no problem. I'm not sure what kind of place this place is, actually.LOL, I don't know either, but it's sure a fun place to be!!Please don't make this a "safe space". Oh geez, I second that motion! If Feministe is an example of a "safe space", I'd much rather be here!With bacon flavoured popcorn!!

SallyStrange
9 years ago

>Jesus Christ on a Cracker, Kave, that was laughably pathetic. I just lost a lot of respect for you.To sum up:Kave says he's a wealthy white guy.victor responds: you just became an irrelevant non-person.To me, "irrelevant non-person" is a perfect encapsulation of the frustration that comes from dealing with discrimination. I feel like an irrelevant non-person whenever politicians talk about shutting down funding for contraceptive services because trying to be not-pregnant is a Bad Thing which should be separate from normal medical care for normal people (the ones who don't have to worry about being pregnant or not-pregnant). Because the most important thing about me is my fucking uterus (ooo! dirty word!). For my boyfriend, who's African American, it's dealing with co-workers who refuse to give him constructive criticism until months after the fact, because they're actually afraid of him, like he's going to curse them out and throw shit or something. What evidence do they have for him being a scary violent guy who can't take criticism? None, aside from the fact that he's black and male. My comment was intended to inspire Kave, and any other wealthy white guys out there reading, to imagine what it would be like to have his problems, which are real and important, PLUS a whole host of other problems that arise due to factors beyond his control–being born with the wrong skin color, the wrong genitalia, the wrong sexuality, etc. IOW, try a little empathy on for size. It might suit you. But instead we were treated to a paranoid rant involving the persecution of the Jews in Germany. And how my request for a little empathy was really my way of saying why it's totally justified to hate Kave and take all his stuff.And they say feminists play the victim card. And they say Black people play the victim card. Shit. We ain't got nothin' compared to wealthy white guys when it comes to playing the victim card.

SallyStrange
9 years ago

>BTW, David, I like the way you run your blog. I don't think there's a need for more feminist safe spaces on the web–there are already plenty. Here, I can engage with people who are actively anti-feminist on a more or less even playing field–which would NOT be the case if I were to go comment at Spearhead, or if Nicko were to (try to) comment at Shakesville. I find it stimulating and educational, if also frustrating at times. I think you're on to something here. So keep it up!

SallyStrange
9 years ago

>SallyI was just making an observation. Its an energy thing. Angry people have this sense to them. You know what I mean, dont ya? Nope, I have no fecking idea what you're talking about. You think Trip wants to use his fists, because he maligned someone's reading comprehension level? Nah. I don't see it and I don't actually believe that you think that. I think you're just trying to stir shit up. Like you did in the previous thread when we went over and over the patriarchy thing, only to finish with you asking the EXACT SAME QUESTION that began the thread in the first place, just as if you hadn't been paying attention to anything at all, except what you yourself were saying.

SallyStrange
9 years ago

>Bacon popcorn, with bacon-infused bloody marys!

AbsintheDexterous
9 years ago

>With bacon flavoured popcorn!!The Power of Bacon! (Compels you!)And I like that this isn't a "safe space". Although the bacon talk is now making me hungry.

Bee
Bee
9 years ago

>Kave: I could say it like :"They are a cancer and we need to remove them"I would not say that to someone who is dealing with cancer. But I would say it when that person dealing with cancer isn't in the room. There is a difference between empathy and manners and having your speech being dictated by the p.c police.Please understand that I'm not at all trying to police your language, Kave, or call you out on it either. But one thing struck me as I was reading this, and I wanted to address it. Assuming, as you seem to, that referencing a cancer in front of someone who you know to have cancer might be uncomfortable for that person, I'm not sure why you say you'd be fine making the same reference when that person has left the room. Part of my understanding about people is that I don't always know what everyone's going through all the time. Even if I've known them for years. Even if I talk to them every day. They still might have secrets–a recently diagnosed cancer, a miscarriage, a rape, an institutionalized aunt, a disabled brother.Again, not trying to change the way you speak. I'm sure you've been doing it for years just fine. Just putting the idea of an expanded view of empathy and kindness out there.And yeah. I also generally like the nature of the comment section here. Obviously. I also just realized that the two options for the cat poll are OK and OK. I like cats OK.

Tit for Tat
9 years ago

>But women have more issues to deal with than men(David)I think this is where the problems creep in. Do they really have 'more' issues or just 'different' problems?

Captain Bathrobe
9 years ago

>And David-it is obviously a bacon flavored popcorn Monty Python repository. HUZZAH!!!

Captain Bathrobe
9 years ago

>SallyStrange said… BTW, David, I like the way you run your blog. I don't think there's a need for more feminist safe spaces on the web–there are already plenty. Here, I can engage with people who are actively anti-feminist on a more or less even playing field–which would NOT be the case if I were to go comment at Spearhead, or if Nicko were to (try to) comment at Shakesville. I find it stimulating and educational, if also frustrating at times. I think you're on to something here. So keep it up!Seconded, thirded, and fourthed.

cboye
9 years ago

>Kave:Yes, you're absolutely right about victimhood–everyone can cast themselves as a victim and it should never be a contest. If bad stuff has happened to you, that's bad. Period. Even if worse stuff happened to other people.But several of your comments (here and here) seem like you're just listing all the stuff you've had to deal with. And when you say that sort of thing, of course people are going to respond by pointing out other people who have had to deal with worse stuff.For instance, you're never going to garner sympathy by talking about how you had to pay estate taxes.

Tit for Tat
9 years ago

>SallyNope, I actually believe Trip is an angry somewhat violent individual. I just dont think he expresses it physically. Though he may if that were an option.

SallyStrange
9 years ago

>I just dont think he expresses it physically. Though he may if that were an option.See, this is what I'm talking about. You contradict yourself within the space of two sentences. You're incoherent. It's unnecessarily provocative. You have zero, zip, zilch evidence, besides your woo-ish "energy thing" for thinking Trip is a violent angry person. You're just stirring the pot. It's obvious and it's stupid. Knock it off.

Tit for Tat
9 years ago

>SallyAm I not allowed to interpret his verbiage as aggressive and angry? If so, why am I not?

SallyStrange
9 years ago

>You can interpret his "verbiage" in any way you want. How is me telling you that your interpretation has no evidence besides your stupid woo-energy thing behind it preventing you from interpreting anything? Interpret away. Just know that I think your interpretation is silly. And designed to provoke. Go ahead, show me that I'm wrong. Provide some evidence–a quote and link, for example–besides "it's an energy thing" for why you think Triplanetary is the type of person who'll lash out with his fists, "if that were an option."If I call you a disingenuous pot-stirring jackass, does that make me a violent angry person?

Tit for Tat
9 years ago

>Here is one of Trip's comments. I wonder if he meant me when he said 'certain men'Feminists aren't a bunch of man-haters who want to go around kicking men in the nuts. Certain men, perhaps(Trip) Violentcaused by or displaying strong or undue mental or emotional force: a violent tongue.Sally, if the shoe fits.

victor
9 years ago

>Elizabeth,Thanks for the clarification. "Sally pointed out that you should think of the fact that women have had to put up with being thought of an "irrelevant nonperson" for centuries. That does not mean she supports making Kave into such a thing-it means "think about this."I think that this is a bit of a generous interpretation of her comments to me and Kave. She did not say or imply that she actively supports it, she just implied that it was deserved – at best that would be utterly inconsequential to her except that she derives some wry amusement from it. "Sucks, doesn't it?" is not quite the same as "think about this". The implication was very clear, and the earlier discussion of privilege had the same tone.And anyway, none of us know what it was like to be a woman suffering oppression 100 years ago, most or all of us have only been around in the last several decades, so, that is our experience. Systematically removing millions of men from their children’s lives won’t make any woman from 100 years ago feel any better.

Pam
Pam
9 years ago

>Oh wow, I feel like I've died and gone to bacon heaven!!!

SallyStrange
9 years ago

>So, Triplanetary is describing feminists. Not himself. He is being facetious. He says that feminists DON'T want to kick men in the balls, by and large–and then he makes a somewhat joking exception for "certain men." He doesn't say he approves, nor does he express any desire of his own to kick any men in the balls. Based on this, you think Triplanetary is a violent angry person who would lash out with his fists if he could.Yup, you're a disingenuous pot-stirrer. Examples of disingenuousness: "WHAT could he POSSIBLY mean by 'certain men'???? *reaches for pearls and smelling salts*"Do you SUPPOSE that men have JUST AS MANY problems as women??? I mean, I don't KNOW, I'm just asking the QUESTION."You're a regular Glenn Beck.