>One things that's fascinating about these guys is that they believe that if they boycott women, all men will do the same. They're completely delusional.

>If a seventh grade girl calls you cooties it means life as you know it is over.You are destined to walk the earth a lonely person, unbeloved by all and forced to wear a mark of shame. A P for um…well dang it. I cannot figure what it would stand for but it means you are an outcast.Or, more likely, it means that someone was still immature and you are an idiot for still being upset about it decades later.

>Elizabeth: It's also possible he did have cooties. Never mind childish insults, those guys can't handle constructive criticism, either.

>As a NiceGuy who evolved into a mangina I have to say I like myself better now.I don't have to hate or "other" half of the population.And I have a lot of great people who saw my potential to get over all that privilege and ignorance.

>@Cynickal: hear, hear. I think being a NiceGuy in your early years is pretty normal, for a lot of reasons. The problem is if you get stuck there.

>You're dating a woman who's also dating a meth dealer?Well, uh, there's your problem.

>I've had cooties ever since first grade. Maybe someday there will be a cure… :(As a NiceGuy who evolved into a mangina I have to say I like myself better now.I don't have to hate or "other" half of the population.And I have a lot of great people who saw my potential to get over all that privilege and ignorance. Word. I, too, have traveled that path. It's a shitty place to be, and I would like to give our friends hope that it doesn't have to be that way. Whether they accept it is entirely up to them.

>Raul Groom said… In the MRA's conception of the human race wouldn't a man with a vagina be the perfect being? The idea of the ideal man is a woman with a dick. — Germaine Greer —

>"The idea of the ideal man is a woman with a dick. — Germaine Greer–"So THAT explains all the yaoi manga I've seen…

>They are so funny because they think their hate makes them special. There hasn't been a morning when I haven't wanted to burn the world down. But, I get a little breakfast and I'm ok. Maybe it's just their diet or something. And I can't believe he's still holding on to the cooties thing too. Let it go, bro, let it go.

>Cynickal: Welcome! After reading such horrible things quoted in the post, it was nice to get a little encouragement from your comment.

>johnny– No, man, Buck's a feminist. The MGTOW would totally call him a mangina, in possibly the only logical use of that term in the history of ever.

>Ozy–and I bet he would take it as a compliment.

> Benjamin said… I still wonder how these people can have presumably met actual women, and how they can be straight when they find women so physically repulsive. MRAs do not find ALL women so physically repulsive as you presume without any evidence, you are wrong.Most MRAs are straight and many of them are married but they choose their wife carefully.What's wrong with that?I do not drink alcohol. – I know in your feminist eyes that's already misogynistic selfish and boring, but sorry I am not interested into a partnership with a female psycho who is an alcoholic and drug-abuser.And what is wrong with a male being straight anyway? I know also women, who are openly straight and are interested sexually only into men and not into women.

>(Hint, no one is saying there is anything wrong with being straight or that not liking drunks makes you misogynist or selfish)

>n00b here. First time post.Anyway, you have to realize that if these type of guys could only commit a crime harsh enough to put them in the loony-bin for life they could find lots and lots of HB10's!Exhibit A:Caged CasanovaYaknow, can I just say something right here and right now about the whole MRA/PUA bullcrap about women loving "killers"?Mentally ill people attract like you idiot phucks! Do you think normal, sane, attractive women are attracted to psychos and whack-jobs? Uhm. NO. Since most whack-jobs don't find love until they are in hospital with other whack-jobs when normally both sexes of said whack-jobs would have never interacted or been in a co-ed situation for a long time unless some sort of 'event' or 'violence' happened to force them into said situation.Hermit psycho love does not equate hypergamy and just because your ugly ass got rejected, don't forget that some ugly ass girl got rejected by some ugly ass guy like you too. It's called being painfully ugly and it happens to both sexes.

>The idea that she said this must come from somewhere, who else could say something like that? And I think, it's a funny comment compared to her general hateful rhetoric.Greer: I have a great deal of difficulty with the idea of the ideal man. As far as I'm concerned, men are the product of a damaged gene. November 1991

>"I've never really understood why "mangina" is supposed to be an insult."–RaulSo, you like being used? It's supposed to mean you are a fool that lets yourself be a doormat and be exploited by others (espeically women), or believe by sucking up to women you can garner their favor. Among a few other things.

>"They are so funny because they think their hate makes them special."—ValerieEven more funny is that feminists think their own hate makes them even better. And entitled.

>ch3f said… n00b here. First time post.Yaknow, can I just say something right here and right now about the whole MRA/PUA bullcrap about women loving "killers"?…..Do you think normal, sane, attractive women are attracted to psychos and whack-jobs? Uhm. NO Uhm. NO? Are you sure?Maybe you reconsider, sometimes YES…http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2011/02/07/married_a_prisoner/index.htmlMy husband, the convicted murderer…..I called Kate, my closest confidante and told her I had met a fascinating man. "But he's in prison for murder," I said with a grim laugh.In her usual unflappable way, Kate calmly told me a story of a friend she'd had a long time ago in Hollywood. She'd met a man in prison, too — and married him……On parole….. after 18 months, I asked him to leave. We divorced that year.Or what about this one:http://www.bakersfieldnow.com/news/81382517.htmlDeputy wrote love letters to murdererDetentions deputy Margarita Young was arrested Monday on suspicion of having sex with high-profile murderer Timothy Titus Rodriguez was he was incarcerated in the pre-trial facility.Rodriguez was sentenced to death last week for killing 90-year-old Thelma Long and beating her 59-year-old daughter….. Not enough reading stuff yet?http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3239215/Woman-prison-teacher-suspended-for-filming-pornographic-film-with-murderer.htmlA WOMAN prison teacher was suspended for filming a porn movie of her having sex in jail with a murderer. Beverley Van-de-Velde, 59, shot the romp with killer Richard Francis, 29, in a high security jail's staff room. ….. discovered the 17-minute DVD among hundreds of love letters she wrote to him in his cell. ….. having unprotected sex with Francis in several positions. The feared gang leader was caged for 13 years for murder … and another story…http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3191452/Prison-governors-wife-accused-of-naked-romp-with-convict.htmlA PRISON governor's wife has been accused of romping naked with a lag serving life. She and Raphael – serving at least 20 years for attempted murder – were said to have been found in an embrace by another officer. A source said last night: "She was on the prison's thinking skills programme. The prison's thinking skills programme….http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2564533/Prison-officer-alleged-to-be-selling-sex-in-prison.htmlA FEMALE prison officer has been suspended after allegations that a convict paid £50 for sex.How many more links do you need to show you that women are frequently in thugs, regardless in or outside of a jail?

>Some kind of statistical analysis indicating the trend is significant in comparison to, I don't know, the number of people who watch janitor porn?Also, where is proof underscoring your implied assertion that these women meet ch3f's qualifiers, i.e. are "normal, sane, attractive?" (Since if they don't, they can't serve as counterexamples.)*FWIW, I'm not much of a fan of ch3f's argument. Sometimes people are attracted to people who will not create healthy relationships with them. I have known ladies who thought the genuine nice guys were boring, and chose to date the assholes who sabotaged their contraception instead. I have also known dudes who prefer women who use hard-core drugs, and dudes who consistently pick women who are less intelligent than they are because they find that an attractive quality and then later get bored with them. I have no problem with any of these choices, qua choices, except inasmuch as they don't accomplish what my friends tell me they want. If the guy who dates hard-core drug users tells me that he wants to date people who are open to the metaphysical experience of chemically altered consciousness, then fine. If he tells me later that he really wants a stable relationship and can't figure out why most of his girlfriends are sad and unstable, then I might consider pointing out to him that while there are probably hard-core drug users who are also stable enough to provide what he wants, he probably needs to include stability as a priority when he looks for new partners, and possibly also to understand that the group of people he'll be able to find who meet both criteria may be smaller than if he dropped one of them.People pick partners for all sorts of reasons, good and bad. Sometimes they're reasons I agree with. Sometimes they aren't. That doesn't make them objectively good or bad.And it's not as simply correlated to "sane" as ch3f's somewhat ableist comment makes it out to be.What I can't figure out is, at this point in my life, the men I'm attracted to are generally shy, kind, and beta. Does that get me MRA points because I'm not interested in thugs and alphas? Or does their being shy and kind make them "manginas?" It kind of seems like no matter how a woman conducts herself, she will still be seen in a negative light. Almost as if the common denominator were some kind of bias like, I don't know, misogyny.

>Yup, many MRAs are married, but to the women that "are the exception" – who are told so, repeatedly, that THEY get it, that THEY are not like those femi-nazis who hate men, that THEY aren't like those bitches who want to take their money and children, etc. etc. etc. It is conditioning, in a way, to accept their MRA activities. What are you going to be, a bitch about it?They love the sensationalist stories of multi-million dollar alimony agreements or other tiny portions of the population to reinforce these views – any rape allegations dropped, anything.

>Some MRAs think women are disgusting subhumans, and some women see men as a meal ticket.This is not a fair comparison. "Women" is not a voluntarily chosen ideological group. That's why othering and generalizing them is both irrational and harmful.MRAs choose the label. The label doesn't describe their genitals or their expected role in society, it describes what they believe. And what the label describes is hatred for women. I have no problem generalizing MRAs. If a person doesn't want to be seen as a misogynist, they should distance themselves from the label.A lot of people on the non-crazy side of the fence still seem to insist of hedging and saying "well there's probably good things about the MRA movement too," apparently in the interest of sounding civil.There aren't good things about the MRA movement. Plain and simple. The entire idea of "men's rights" is born of hatred for women. The denial that men already occupy the privileged position in society is misogynistic. Yes, patriarchy does hurt men, too, but all the ways in which it hurts men are side effects of elements of the system designed to oppress women. Feminism helps both men and women by attempting to dismantle traditional notions of gender, so we don't need a separate "men's rights" movement.The men's rights movement fights hard for traditional notions of gender, all the while pretending that that makes them edgy and brave.It's the same as the people who think that American society is easier on minorities than it is on whites. Those people are racist. They're not just misguided or confused, nor do they have "some good points." They're racist.

>Hey, the unemployment rate is way higher for blacks than for whites. Obviously, they're just lazy. You know, with a few exceptions.

>rachel-swirsky said… What I can't figure out is, at this point in my life, the men I'm attracted to are generally shy, kind, and beta. Does that get me MRA points because I'm not interested in thugs and alphas? Or does their being shy and kind make them "manginas?" I think, any woman who stays away from some certain people and certain places and is willing to talk face-to-face with a man (1-1 and not one group with another group) in a not-noisy nice environment, like in a park or restaurant etc. and shows some kindness and patience and not into shopping after the first 3 sentences (you buy me, I love you etc) will get what you call 'MRA-points' (interesting, the first time I hear that… MRA-points…that's a great idea!)About shy men etc. I think, many men are worried to say something 'wrong' which can be used against them later on. Men in USA often have no idea how they can find and talk to a woman without being worried to be interrupted immediately after the first sentence or being ridiculed by the girl. This behavior has nothing to do with being a 'mangina'.What MRAs consider as a mangina is totally different.

>"Men in USA often have no idea how they can find and talk to a woman without being worried to be interrupted immediately after the first sentence or being ridiculed by the girl."In many cases this is because they think of women as a separate species and haven't cultivated female friendship. If you only talk to women in a sexual context, it's hard to make small talk.

>The men's rights movement fights hard for traditional notions of gender, all the while pretending that that makes them edgy and brave.No it doesn't. A lot of MRAs such as Paul Elam and the MGTOW guys hate gender traditionalists almost as much as they hate feminists, as in their view old-school "patriarchy" hurt men MORE than it hurt women.

>Also, this is something else that's always sort of confused me about MRA positions. My beta male husband who has never been in trouble in his life, who goes totally silent in groups of four or more strangers, who in high school was a glasses-wearing 90-pound weakling, the kid whose family couldn't always afford food who had to bus in to a high school by the country club, who owned two pairs of jeans that had to last him from eighth grade to senior year, whose body language is swish, and who got beaten up every day of junior high……he had all the sexual partners he could ever want from age thirteen onward. Friends, strangers, romances, threesomes, oral sex, hand jobs, two-girls-one-guy, two-guys-one-girl, group make-out sessions, women who looked like they were from magazines, women who looked like they were out of porn movies, women who were fat, women who were ordinary-looking, women who were ugly, women at the top of the social hierarchy, women in the middle of the social hierarchy, women at the bottom of the social hierarchy, women older than he was, women younger than he was, a couple self-identified lesbians who casually wanted some dick… he had waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more sex at a younger age than any alpha dude I've ever run into. So the "beta males can't get laid because all women are into hypergamy" thing really confuses me. He's never been at the top of the social ladder. He didn't have money or prestige or leather-coat-cool or thuggishness. He never got high grades in high school or had any access to money. He did eventually end up in his early-twenties being convinced he was smart enough to go to college, where he started fulfilling his intellectual potential and went into a field with decent income–but all that happened significantly after he started screwing.I mean, it's easy for me to make guesses about why he's popular with the ladies. He genuinely likes the company of women, he's kind, he's happy to have no-strings attached sex, he's attracted to a range of bodies. As his wife, I also have to say, I think he's the nicest, most generous, genuinely good person ever.But isn't the MRA theory that beta males can't get nookie because ladies want the rich guys and the thugs, not the nice, poor dudes who wear extra-large shirts over extra-small frames? If we accept that American women are into hypergamy, then what's up?

>Transposing Yohan’s broad generalizations from the man/woman binary to the white/black binary reveals just how ridden with logical fallacies and bigotry his thinking really is. Also, typing it out made realize (painfully) how poor his grasp on basic English grammar is. This person is MODERATING a chat forum? They must be hard up for moderators. I think, any black person who stays away from some certain people and certain places and is willing to talk face-to-face with a white person (1-1 and not one group with another group) in a not-noisy nice environment, like in a park or restaurant etc. and shows some kindness and patience and not into hip hop after the first 3 sentences will get [approval from Whites’ Rights Activists]. (Paraphrasing here.)About white people, etc. I think, many white people are worried to say something 'wrong' which can be used against them later on. White people in USA often have no idea how they can find and talk to a black person without being worried to be interrupted immediately after the first sentence or being ridiculed by the Negro. This behavior has nothing to do with being a 'race traitor'.What MRAs consider as a race traitor is totally different.As John Lennon said, Woman is the Nigger of the World. And I promise that will be the last time I use the n-word in this forum. Sorry if it was jarring. I do think “race traitor” is a fair analogy to the “mangina” term.

>@Denia"The idea of the ideal man is a woman with a dick. — Germaine Greer –Except she never said that. "I rather suspected she hadn't because, even though I have not read all of her work (or even most of it), considering that she is infamously transphobic. I just can't picture someone who devoted an entire chapter of one of her better known books to bashing trans women and who said this:"Whatever else it is gender reassignment is an exorcism of the mother. When a man decides to spend his life impersonating his mother (like Norman Bates in Psycho) it is as if he murders her and gets away with it, proving at a stroke that there was nothing to her. His intentions are no more honourable than any female impersonator's; his achievement is to gag all those who would call his bluff. When he forces his way into the few private spaces women may enjoy and shouts down their objections, and bombards the women who will not accept him with threats and hate mail, he does as rapists have always done"as someone who would ever respect the notion that someone with a penis could be identified as a woman.

>thevagrantsvoice said… "No it doesn't. A lot of MRAs such as Paul Elam and the MGTOW guys hate gender traditionalists almost as much as they hate feminists, as in their view old-school "patriarchy" hurt men MORE than it hurt women . . "I understand where Paul is coming from on that matter. I don't like feminism or traditionalism—neither are for real equality as a given rule, it seems.

>Sally, I know you were being sarcastic, and I understand the point you ware making, but I deleted your first post with the n-word; I don't want to see that sort of language here (with a possible exception if it's in a direct quote; I left your reference to the John Lennon song up). I think your comments without the n-word made your point much more clearly, in any case.

>Yohan:Having been reading this blog for some time now, I cannot help but notice a distinct pattern to your debating style.For example. Were our host to encounter a post on an MRA site saying ‘It is my lifelong fantasy to destroy a woman’s face with battery acid and stand masturbating frenziedly over her disfigured, weeping wreck.’ No idea, what you mean with that. I never commented to threads like that… Please explain…

>> Are you aware of the concept of projection?For those who aren't:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

>Wait, wait, Yohan… you mean to tell me you felt a tiny frisson of shame just now? Because that would be amazing. It would show that there's a tiny bit of hope for you! I love it when people accuse me of "playing the race card." Then I can accuse them of playing the "playing the race card" card.